Pope Francis compares trans people to nuclear weapons
Joe Morgan 19/2/15
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/pope-francis-compares-trans-people-nuclear-weapons190215
Head of the Catholic Church claims those who transition are opposing 'God's order of creation'
Pope Francis has compared trans people to nuclear weapons, saying both do not 'recognize the order of creation' The head of the Catholic Church has claimed people who 'manipulate' their bodies are similar to 'Herods' that 'destroy, that plot designs of death, that disfigure the face of man and woman, destroying creation.'
The comments were made in a new book published in Italy, Pope Francis: This Economy Kills, calling on Christians to safeguard God's order of creation
Questions:
What about intersex people?
What about people who "manipulate" their bodies with tattoos, piercings, plastic surgery, reconstructive surgery, or surgery to save one's life?
People who dye their hair?
Nuclear weapons? Seriously? Am I a weapon of mass destruction? That's actually kinda badass!
This is disapointing. I was hoping for better from Pope Francis based on how he has spoken of other things.
UM... Everthing that goes into a nuclear weapon comes from the created cosmos... There are other things that are present in creation that are not really useful for the common good. But to compare trans* people to any of these things makes me sad.
Erin
Comments from OP split out of original message:
Quote from: Jigsaw. on February 19, 2015, 05:16:28 PM
Saw this wasnt posted here and I just came across this..
I really thought he was a good Pope, he seemed to be making a lot of progress towards minority issues and even trans stuff. Now Im not so sure..
I don't know which is stranger: the claim that nuclear weapons don't follow the order of creation (I presume that for a believer, God is at least somewhat responsible for those pesky laws of physics (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=0a0b44ad1de7ecfd5b4be1ab5919f433c770be5f)), or the idea that trans people are like nuclear weapons.
I'd love to be a weapon of mass destruction: of bigotry, intolerance, hatred, and the like.
At first, I was flattered because being as powerful as a nuke is pretty sweet but then I read what he actually said:
Quote'Let's think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings,' he says.
'Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.'
'With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator,' the pope adds.
'The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.'
'God has placed man and woman and the summit of creation and has entrusted them with the earth,' Francis says. 'The design of the Creator is written in nature.'
'If we fail in this responsibility, if we do not take care of our brothers and of all creation, destruction advances,' he added.
I'm not sure he's actually even saying anything about transgender people here. "Gender theory" is very vague. If not for the spin on the article, had I read this objectively, I'd think he was talking about future worries of genetic manipulation or cloning or something.
Am I missing something? Is this within a context where he's more specifically speaking about transgender folks?
Quote from: Jigsaw. on February 19, 2015, 05:16:28 PM
Pope Francis has compared trans people to nuclear weapons....
Hell yeah! I'm a mushroom cloud layin' mother hmm hmm! I'm Super Fly TNT! I'm the Guns of the Navarone!
(apologies to Jules Winnfield. 8))
Abysha, you make a good point. It's pretty hard to critique something based on out-of-context quotations.
... And this pope was looking good. He did say earlier that he cannot judge gay people. Now I really know that I am not gay!
Joelene
People have told me for a long time that I am "the bomb". Now I know why!
Religion is a belief based on a book.
So if I can believe in a god only know by writings.
I should be able to believe myself being real.
I stand in front of my own mirror with my own reflection.
Enough of that from me.
I never would judge anyone who wants to hold a belief.
Time for them to stop judging me for being me.
Great. This is just what my parents wanted to hear. They pay attention to this stuff, too. They really didn't need more ammo.
Just another item to add to the list of what the Catholic church has gotten wrong about humanity. I was raised Catholic.
Quote from: Eevee on February 19, 2015, 07:34:39 PM
Great. This is just what my parents wanted to hear. They pay attention to this stuff, too. They really didn't need more ammo.
I feel so bad for the poor children born IS.
Seems then they must be products of the devil in the context of there ignorance thinking.
......."and if you want to hate these people 'not of god's creation' - be my guest'".
Thanks for that. For my part, I have no respect for these fools who claim to have "the word of god" in their ear. They just divide, rule, and count the $.
It's a good thing I'm not Catholic then. Otherwise, I might be inclined to care.
The problem with Catholicism, (and Mormonism) is the money and power they hold.
Quote from: Abysha on February 19, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
At first, I was flattered because being as powerful as a nuke is pretty sweet but then I read what he actually said:
I'm not sure he's actually even saying anything about transgender people here. "Gender theory" is very vague. If not for the spin on the article, had I read this objectively, I'd think he was talking about future worries of genetic manipulation or cloning or something.
Am I missing something? Is this within a context where he's more specifically speaking about transgender folks?
I got a little bent out of shape when I saw this on a news source, but like you, after reading what was actually said, I had second thoughts. First, sometimes I wonder if he actually writes these things or if someone else does, and secondly, it is not clear to me exactly what he is talking about. Perhaps it is a vague was to refer to transgender people, but I don't know. He recently had a one on one visit with a transgender person and that person felt it was positive and hopeful. Recently the pope also said it is not for him to judge. Yet, in addition to being head of a huge and diverse church, he is also head of state, which is political. I think that like all politicians, he may sometimes try to say what he believes while at the same time trying to slant it for his audience, not for votes, but to try and convey that he is there for both the conservatives and liberals in the church - no easy task.
Perhaps I am too hopeful, but this pope seems more genuine to me than some of his predecessors. I also realize, though, that the leadership of the church is vast and he may not always be able to do and say exactly as he would like. (Popes have been killed for such things when they ruffle to many feathers of those in power - but I hope he does some feather ruffling). Only time will tell.
Remember,there are probably a few Catholics on the forums.Please keep that in mind when posting your replies :)
Quote from: Jill F on February 19, 2015, 07:03:10 PM
People have told me for a long time that I am "the bomb". Now I know why!
Haha! Jill! So funny! I agree sounds more epic to me than anything! ;) BOOOM!
But also yah.. people modify their bodies for health and non health issues ALL THE TIME. So the qualm with trans people doing it makes zero sense.
...I think I had enough internet for one day.
Quote from: mrs izzy on February 19, 2015, 07:14:46 PM
Religion is a belief based on a book.
So if I can believe in a god only know by writings.
I should be able to believe myself being real.
I stand in front of my own mirror with my own reflection.
Enough of that from me.
I never would judge anyone who wants to hold a belief.
Time for them to stop judging me for being me.
Amen sister! I grew up a Catholic but have since seen the light.
I will have nothing to do with them (or any religion for that matter).
Old man in a white dress who covers up for kiddie fiddlers doesn't like me.Soon as I find a rat's ass I'll give one
5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate; or which depicts illegal acts; will not be permitted.
We're at the edge and have some toes peeking over. Please remember the TOS and keep things from going out of bounds.
Thank you all!
Quote from: Makenzie on February 19, 2015, 09:45:54 PM
Remember,there are probably a few Catholics on the forums.Please keep that in mind when posting your replies :)
Aye, well said.
...the sun is a gigantic, constantly exploding radioactive nuclear bomb.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Feek.gif&hash=669241757cc6b77b28c325f022e1bf7b2454d127)
Don't tell God.
This thread has been locked for repeated violations of tos 5 and 10.
Here they are to refresh everyone's memory while this thread gets an admin review
5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate; or which depicts illegal acts; will not be permitted.
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive whatever the provocation.
Keeping locked for now.
Quote from: mrs izzy on February 20, 2015, 09:32:19 PM
Keeping locked for now.
Topic reopened.
Zero :police: tolerance for anyone who goes out of topic or against site TOS.
I understand why this topic was locked for a while but we should keep in mind that the comments by the pope would not be allowed for being outside the sites rules.
Keeping that in mind, if I'm a nuclear weapon then people using any religion to attack transpeople for rectifying a birth defect are the equivalent to an extinction level event such as a meteor or rogue black hole....bazinga!
Quote from: Jayne on February 22, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
I understand why this topic was locked for a while but we should keep in mind that the comments by the pope would not be allowed for being outside the sites rules.
How true!
Quote from: Jayne on February 22, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
Keeping that in mind, if I'm a nuclear weapon then people using any religion to attack transpeople for rectifying a birth defect are the equivalent to an extinction level event such as a meteor or rogue black hole....bazinga!
I couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Jayne on February 22, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
I understand why this topic was locked for a while but we should keep in mind that the comments by the pope would not be allowed for being outside the sites rules.
Keeping that in mind, if I'm a nuclear weapon then people using any religion to attack transpeople for rectifying a birth defect are the equivalent to an extinction level event such as a meteor or rogue black hole....bazinga!
There lies the whole mess in a nut shell, we are still not seen as someone born with a birth defect.
Until society understands and accepts that premus we always will be treated as a "choice" or "against a someone who never makes mistakes".
Maybe tomorrow!
"If we fail in this responsibility, if we do not take care of our brothers and of all creation, destruction advances."
This line is what he needs to think about when it comes to LGBT people. Lesbian and gay people cannot become straight, and trans people cannot become cis, no matter how much Pope Francis wants to ignore this inconvenient fact. Destruction advances when we invalidate, ignore and demonize. Senseless destruction of lives that could have been saved. People that could have lived happy and fulfilling lives instead must live lives of quiet misery. We do have to care for our brothers and sisters, and caring for them means we recognize them as people just like any other, and we recognize that there is nothing wrong with them. We don't care for others by trying to force them to be something they are not. There's nothing unnatural about us. We were born this way. In the case of trans people who seek to change their bodies, how is this different from undergoing any other medical procedure to improve someone's life? Because that's exactly what we're doing. When people are born with any other condition, no one claims it's unnatural to correct it with medication or surgery. Why is this any different? These are questions he needs to ask himself and think deeply on.
Hi All,
I get the feeling this is more about the morons in the media playing there usual games than Pope Francis. I'm no fan of religion but this seems a little weird coming so soon after this.
--------------------------
Report: Pope Francis meets with, hugs transgender man
Thomas C. Fox | Jan. 30, 2015
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/report-pope-francis-meets-hugs-transgender-man
Gay Catholic leaders have expressed their pleasure following reports that Pope Francis, in an unprecedented move, met last week with a transgender Spaniard at the Vatican.
While the Vatican has yet to confirm the meeting, it has been widely reported in the press, and there has been no Vatican denial.
==========================
Reading the quote it seems all about genetic engineering. Probably referring to this sort of thing.
Human DNA gives mice bigger brains
Michelle Starr/February 22, 2015 10:14 PM PST
http://www.cnet.com/news/human-dna-gives-mice-bigger-brains/
Injecting mouse embryos with a human DNA sequence leads to a marked increase in brain size -- and may provide insights into Alzheimer's.
The human genetic code is very similar to the genetic code of our closest living relative -- the chimpanzee -- sharing around 95 percent. Of all the differences, however, one is particularly interesting: the human brain is a lot bigger than the brain of a chimp. The brain of a chimp weighs, on average, 384 grams, whereas a human brain is more than triple that, at 1,352 grams.
==========================
Anyway just my take on this.
Paige :)
Edited by news staff for forum news requirements
Here is a quote taken from that ncronline.org article in the above post^: http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/report-pope-francis-meets-hugs-transgender-man
"At this time, I wouldn't use the word 'acceptance' to describe the Vatican's stance toward the transgender community. I think 'dialogue' would be a better word," he said.
"The Vatican's reluctance to verify the meeting is another indication of why I don't think their attitude can yet be called 'acceptance,' " DeBernardo said.
Is acceptance ever going to be a reality in the Catholic faith?
Quote from: michelle gee on February 23, 2015, 11:37:41 AM
Here is a quote taken from that ncronline.org article:
"At this time, I wouldn't use the word 'acceptance' to describe the Vatican's stance toward the transgender community. I think 'dialogue' would be a better word," he said.
"The Vatican's reluctance to verify the meeting is another indication of why I don't think their attitude can yet be called 'acceptance,' " DeBernardo said.
Will the Catholic church ever accept in the future?
Hi Michelle,
I think you have to look at the situation that Pope Francis has been put into. He's basically coming in after two of the most reactionary Popes in recent history. I get the feeling he's trying to turn this ship around but there's lots of inertia working against him.
Am I happy with the current stance of the church? No not at all, but I get the feeling as he get's more control over things he could surprise a lot of people.
Maybe I'm too hopeful, but he has done quite a few surprising things since he's got into power, and I've never had much use for the Vatican,
Take care,
Paige :)
I really did like this guy but yet again he proves why I subject myself to science and science alone.
I love it when people try to tell me I'm going against the bible or god as if they are trying to insult me...
There are so many things I say about Pope Francis and the Catholic religion but I would violate site rules if I did so. I hate religion.
As one of the Catholics mentioned as frequenting the SP forums, I gotta say that Pope Francis is doing a LOT better than his predecessors in the tolerance department. That said, he is pushing against 2000 years of traditions that - until recent advances in science - were taken as lock, stock and barrel truth. He's also a human being and makes mistakes. Also, people should remember that Frankie is speaking in Latin, which isn't always easy to translate or at least fails to translate well to English.
I am trans*. I am Catholic. I am a minor Biblical scholar.
I believe the Trans* community are nuclear bombs in that we will change the world around us by extremes if we can, though for the better and not for destruction.
Just in case anyone doesn't know about "Gender theory" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_schema_theory)...
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 23, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
Just in case anyone doesn't know about "Gender theory" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_schema_theory)...
Thanks Beth, that actually makes it clearer.
I think what people are seeing and what is being siad is a little like a Venn diagram where the two circles don't touch. I might be able to provide a little light here:
Full quote from the article:
Quote'Let's think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings,' he says.
'Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.'
'With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator,' the pope adds.
'The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.'
'God has placed man and woman and the summit of creation and has entrusted them with the earth,' Francis says. 'The design of the Creator is written in nature.'
'If we fail in this responsibility, if we do not take care of our brothers and of all creation, destruction advances,' he added.
Now...line by line let me translate:
Let's think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beingsNuclear arms are destructive because, obvious. This is easy to prove and it's potential to destroy human culture is high.
Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.
- Genetic manipulation runs the gamut from GMO foods to attempting "designer babies" to cloning, etc.
- Manipulation of life to serve the purpose of another is a pretty scary place. There's stuff out there about having a second kid to "harvest" bone marrow for a child sick with lukemia. While it saves the elder child, what message does it send to the second? This could lead to a breakdown of culture too (in microcosm of course).
- Gender theory that wants to forse children into one thing or another, or that does too little to affirm who the child truly is, can also be destructive in that parents abdicating their responsibility to help their child discover themselves can unravel the family structure.
- Recognizing creation means to acknowledge what we are BORN with, so those who are trans* and trans* related recognize creation in that they recognize the self they were born to be and take steps to affirm that.
With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the CreatorHow many times to we joke about doctors who like to "play God"? Yes, we want doctors and professionals who know what they are doing, but knowing also their limitations and how far to go with things is also part of knowing our place in creation. My place in creation is as a Trans* person who will fight for gender rights within the Catholic Church, I know that my voice is not alone, I also know that without knowing where and how to push I could get into big trouble.
The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.I asked "Why me?" plenty of times. The answer that I have come to is "Who better than ME to be who I am?". Thinking that the combination of my genetics was an total accident is foolish, because if genetics is an accident, then so is the set of values I have, and I WILL get a well written book of prose from a nuclear bomb.
If we fail in this responsibility, if we do not take care of our brothers and of all creation, destruction advancesTake care of our brothers and sisters and siblings of all kinds, as well as caring properly for our planet. If we don't, we risk a "nucelar bomb" of culture and planetary destruction that we already are seeing in global warming and the decline of fossil fuels, etc. Biblically, we were made "stewards" of the earth, not to "lord over" and conquer it, but to care for it.
So, really? I prefer to think that Francis is trying to encourage humanity to stop being destructive towards ourselves and towards our planet. :)
QuoteSo, really? I prefer to think that Francis is trying to encourage humanity to stop being destructive towards ourselves and towards our planet. :)
I must and been reading over many news reports from many sources, I will Conclude Your Hypothesis!
I have given everyone the benefit of the doubt with this very heated topic and been working hard to keep it open for responses like this could be made.
As with anything here on the web, never believe everything that is written to be of absolute and true word.
I said once before or made comments about the witch hunts of ages. Example of when things are taken out of context.
It is hard to understand things we do not understand and that is where society has a huge problem with acceptance.
Je Suis etres-humains, Hugs
Nous sommes toutes etres-Humaines!
I totally get you there. Too often people hear something negative because they are expecting it. I prefer to make sure I hear and understand both sides before jumping to conclusions.
I do not deny the wrongs of the past, but I want the future to be better for all.
Cheers
Well, if it makes anyone feel better, a lot of churches are teaching that Intersex people are domed to hell just for merely existing. Even if I lived a great life, and did everything I should, and never sinned, I would still go to hell because I'm Intersex.
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on February 19, 2015, 05:45:39 PM
Hell yeah! I'm a mushroom cloud layin' mother hmm hmm! I'm Super Fly TNT! I'm the Guns of the Navarone!
(apologies to Jules Winnfield. 8))
Barbie- I just spit out coffee laughing from this. Pricelesss, Girl. You go. Hugs, Sheila
Every day I move closer to leaving the Church. Seems as though it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Could explain our often voiced con fusion.
Locked for admin review.
Unlocked for another try.
Please again keep it to the News release and not a bashing religion.
This news article is a opinion based out of total content. Written for the shack factor. Kinda like the bathroom bills are written in the news. 1 % truth the rest is sound bites with some smoke and mirrors..
Please relax.
Thanks
The man is protecting his flock. And he's right, I AM The Bomb! 8)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1279.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy537%2FDevlynMarie%2F0514111016_zps11af7564.jpg&hash=2b7c7333d5d2197fd247f4a69be5a70963706094)
I am very, very disappointed in everyone.
How could no-one link to this song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx9qi0E7H-I
I'm hopeful that Pope Francis will make a difference in the way that folk like ourselves are perceived. I'm a Catholic convert, I used to be an Anglican, but converted after a long time spent in meditation and prayer about becoming a Catholic. I don't really know if anyone in the parish in which I live knows my gender status as it's never been challenged. Around five years ago I became a third order Franciscan and I live as a solitary spending time in prayer and also studying the early church as well as Coptic and Syriac versions of the New Testament. Not surprising I suppose since I used to be a social worker.
I have a habit which I wear on special occasions, but most of the time I just dress old fashioned modest and wear a headscarf and a cross around my neck. I didn't bother to ask anybody in the church for permission, - I just went ahead because I believe I am a child of God and God made me the way I am. My on-going prayer is that perhaps one day the church might get the message that life is sometimes more complicated than being handed out an 'M' or an 'F' at birth.
I wonder how the pope would react to a practicing transgender witch who works in a weapons grade uranium enrichment facility?
All weapons grade uranium enriching transgender witches should report to Devlyn. Immediately!
Hugs, Devlyn
I was hoping he was going to be more open minded, in fact he said something about being open to accept the theory of evolution... He said that he doesn't want to put himself so highly to judge gay people, if they have faith or not, and now this...
Well, there are some that do need to be defused.
What an utterly asinine and intellectually insipid comment. I doubt I'm ever going to take the world's largest Christian denomination's leader seriously ever again. These bizarre opinions of clergy and religious preachers is one of the chief reasons why I left the Eastern Orthodox Church just over six months ago.
The pope is wrong.
However, there is no evidence or accusation I know of the Pope being a pedophile.
I am providing a warning if the posts become slanderous the thread will be locked.
Play nice everyone or this thread will get locked. Any other bashing posts in violation of the TOS will lead to my slight frame crashing down upon you from a great height.
This is the reason young people like myself are rejecting religion. We aren't buying it.
Mod edit: no swearing
Mrs Izzy that was a great post on being spiritual not just about words written by man about god and faith aka religious texts.
I consider my self agnoistic for that reason in that the bible is very contradictory in that I think it does teach morals it also teaches us that due to those contradictions the world is not black and white. Perhaps the religious over see that big picture yet I don't judge those for that either not my place. Just my general opinion on religion and I don't question another faith as that is their right to have whatever faith they believe and no faith is right or wrong.
The line about creation and nature makes me think well if nature did create us then o wait the pope didn't think of it that way:) Or maybe he did its all kind of ambiguous as is what he can truly say fi that makes sense.
Edit: As I quote from the bible the meek shall inherit the earth are we not generally the meek? Ok admit I don't know that much of the bible at all but that does seem to fit maybe we are the meek nuke bomb and god forbid we all get along.
I've been waiting to post something for awhile on this. I was brought of Catholic and fell away a long time ago. Mostly because I couldn't agree with the teachings at all. Right now I guess I'd have to say I'm agnostic.
I mean its been awhile since I've picked up the Bible. But doesn't it say something about not judging people? And also loving your neighbor? If everyone was able to follow that the world would be better. I'm really trying to tread lightly here. But why can't the church accept that if we are all creation of a God that sometimes something doesn't go right? I mean you have birth defects that you can see, extra limbs, joined twins etc. So getting too much of one hormone and not another in the womb shouldn't be that far of stretch.
I mean if I am a nuclear weapon I'm a really nice one. Since now I'm trying to make it my goal to help as many people as possible in my life. And if I'm going to you know where oh well.
Like I said tried to tread lightly on this topic and hope I didn't upset anyone
Raven
I don't think your post will offend anyone Raven. Recently I resigned from being a third order Franciscan because I could no longer remain in stealth and be so visibly a part of a church that refuses to recognise that people like myself exist. I'm still a Christian, - I'm just not Catholic anymore. Over the years I've spent a lot of time studying the early church and reading good quality and scholarly translations of the oldest Christian writings that have survived. If anything I now count myself as being a simple follower of Christ and align myself with no denomination or branded form of Christianity.
And the messege that God love us????