(I hope this was an appropriate section for my question)
So I have a question, and I have to admit it is coming from a place of fear and confusion and doubt as I approach the start of my therapy and possible path to making some changes to feel more at peace. My question is, is it a legitimate option that therapists and medical professionals will accept if I were to want to go on HRT but continue living outwardly as a man? I know I would change in certain ways but even with those changes I know I would live life far more smoothly as a man rather than try and come out of the closet and live full time as a woman despite never being able to pass. I wonder if the changes that I can embrace in private but hide in public, along with the peace that I hear many people experience when on HRT, would be enough to keep those feelings (dysphoria I suppose?) at bay?
So is it an option to try and walk the line between birth gender and desired gender in order to deal with the negative feelings but also not have to live life being viewed as "a man in a dress"? Sorry if anyone is offended by that, but it is a very very strong insecurity of mine, strong enough that I honestly feel at this point like I would never be able to bring myself to come out of the closet and really live as a woman.
I am wondering if this is an option I can keep in mind to bring up during therapy. Has anyone ever heard of someone doing this?
I have heard of people doing it. One had to lie to the therapist. Others were OK with it. Either way, you do what you need to.
That's what I did until I was able to move to a place that was more trans-friendly. The therapist is human; she understood that not everyone can be out and proud from day 1. She waived my Real Life Experience as well. The standards of care they follow has changed in the past few years to allow for this, so you should be fine. HRT can be very therapeutic to some even if they never transition. Believe it or not now, you will start to look different, though, so people might start to wonder, but you can take steps for a long time to mitigate that. Heck, I'm out as can be around where I live these days, but just returned from a 10 day trip to Russia to visit a friend...where as you might know LGBT folks are heavily targeted by both authorities and skinheads. I bought some men's clothes and a chest binder and butched it right up (weird experience but doable). Long story short, it's possible. But you might well get to a point in a few months or a year or two on HRT that you want to take the next steps. Your pace should be your own, and a good therapist will help with that. Good luck!
There are 2 thoughts wandering through my mind, more questions actually..
What happens if/when the hormones make it impossible to actually pass as a guy?
And what about if/when you change your mind?
Quote from: LordKAT on February 24, 2015, 12:59:10 AM
I have heard of people doing it. One had to lie to the therapist. Others were OK with it. Either way, you do what you need to.
Can you explain what lie was neccessary? Did the person tell their therapist that he or she was living full time when they actually weren't?
Quote from: GendrKweer on February 24, 2015, 01:07:51 AM
That's what I did until I was able to move to a place that was more trans-friendly. The therapist is human; she understood that not everyone can be out and proud from day 1. She waived my Real Life Experience as well. The standards of care they follow has changed in the past few years to allow for this, so you should be fine. HRT can be very therapeutic to some even if they never transition. Believe it or not now, you will start to look different, though, so people might start to wonder, but you can take steps for a long time to mitigate that. Heck, I'm out as can be around where I live these days, but just returned from a 10 day trip to Russia to visit a friend...where as you might know LGBT folks are heavily targeted by both authorities and skinheads. I bought some men's clothes and a chest binder and butched it right up (weird experience but doable). Long story short, it's possible. But you might well get to a point in a few months or a year or two on HRT that you want to take the next steps. Your pace should be your own, and a good therapist will help with that. Good luck!
Yes I suppose setting the right pace is important, even if it is a glacier-esque one. And if I decide to live that way indefinitely I'd like to think it would be an option. But realizing that I have options makes the prospect of doing something a little less intimidating since it's not actually like jumping into the deep end of the pool.
I actually have an aunt who is a transwoman who came out and seemed to almost immediately start living full time and persue a name change and ask people to use correct pronouns. I don't know how she is as brave as she is doing all that, she even has gone back to University at age 56 mid-transition. If I ever come out of the closet I am going to tell her how inspiring and brave she is.
Do you want to stay living as a man because you think you'll never pass? Is that why you only want HRT and nothing else? Because let me tell you that many of us who first started out think we're never gonna pass but slowly as we progress there always comes a point when you do. Just think about that. But to answer your question, I do believe that's an option. It would just being about finding that open-minded therapist and endocrinologist or doing it the black market way (DIY) which I don't recommend.
Quote from: kelly_aus on February 24, 2015, 01:15:40 AM
There are 2 thoughts wandering through my mind, more questions actually..
What happens if/when the hormones make it impossible to actually pass as a guy?
And what about if/when you change your mind?
Good questions, as for the first one I doubt hormones could change me enough to ever have someone assume I am a woman while presenting as a man. I am very manly in body, face, and voice. I know I would be taking some big steps towards androgeny but for some reason I find that a lot easier to handle.
As for the second question, do you mean change my mind and stop HRT? I have heard of people doing this and "de-transitioning" so I believe it is an option but if I ever decide to go on HRT it will be after careful consideration with the help of a therapist to make sure there is as little a chance of that happening as possible. If yoh keant change my mind as in want to come out of the closet and live full time then that could be done down the road if I wish.
The lie was that they wanted to do a full transition instead of just hormones, in order to get the hormones.
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:26:49 AM
Good questions, as for the first one I doubt hormones could change me enough to ever have someone assume I am a woman while presenting as a man. I am very manly in body, face, and voice. I know I would be taking some big steps towards androgeny but for some reason I find that a lot easier to handle.
I thought the same thing. About 18 months on hormones and even dressed in a very masculine fashion, I couldn't pass as a guy. The thing is, you just don't know until you take the plunge..
Quote from: JenJen2011 on February 24, 2015, 01:22:42 AM
Do you want to stay living as a man because you think you'll never pass? Is that why you only want HRT and nothing else? Because let me tell you that many of us who first started out think we're never gonna pass but slowly as we progress there always comes a point when you do. Just think about that. But to answer your question, I do believe that's an option. It would just being about finding that open-minded therapist and endocrinologist or doing it the black market way (DIY) which I don't recommend.
Honestly it is mostly that, the fact that I will never pass and always will be stared at and called "sir" no matter how hard I try. I'll probably just look ridiculous/hideous if I even tried. I know some transwomen live this life and manage to be happy in their own skin regardless (and much respect to them!) but I don't think I have it in me to live that life.
And it's also the idea of coming out to some people though, specifically at work. If I ever come out I would want to find a new job and come out as I move into it and leave the old one without telling them anything.
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:31:59 AM
Honestly it is mostly that, the fact that I will never pass and always will be stared at and called "sir" no matter how hard I try. I'll probably just look ridiculous/hideous if I even tried. I know some transwomen live this life and manage to be happy in their own skin regardless (and much respect to them!) but I don't think I have it in me to live that life.
I used to think that.
Quote from: kelly_aus on February 24, 2015, 01:31:43 AM
I thought the same thing. About 18 months on hormones and even dressed in a very masculine fashion, I couldn't pass as a guy. The thing is, you just don't know until you take the plunge..
Good point, and I'm totally willing to keep and open mind. Believe me, being surprised by passing would be a welcome occurance! But sadly not likely.
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:31:59 AM
Honestly it is mostly that, the fact that I will never pass and always will be stared at and called "sir" no matter how hard I try. I'll probably just look ridiculous/hideous if I even tried. I know some transwomen live this life and manage to be happy in their own skin regardless (and much respect to them!) but I don't think I have it in me to live that life.
And it's also the idea of coming out to some people though, specifically at work. If I ever come out I would want to find a new job and come out as I move into it and leave the old one without telling them anything.
This means that you aren't wanting to do it for other people but what about your happiness??? Transitioning takes time. A LOT of time. You won't pass overnight but once you get on HRT, things will slowly progress. I suggest taking your time with it. Do the small things first like starting HRT, shaving, working on your voice, electrolysis if needed, and trust me you will progress. If surgery is needed in the future, you can do that as well. But you should not not do something because of others. Do what your heart and mind wants. And like you said, after transition, you can move to a place where no one knows you and start fresh. You will be fine trust me. And more importantly, you will be HAPPY!
Hugs and best wishes to you!
Quote from: LordKAT on February 24, 2015, 01:29:56 AM
The lie was that they wanted to do a full transition instead of just hormones, in order to get the hormones.
I see... So at least some therapists wouldn't approve of going on HRT unless the intention was to fully transition and live full time? That's why the lie was neccessary?
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:42:59 AM
I see... So at least some therapists wouldn't approve of going on HRT unless the intention was to fully transition and live full time? That's why the lie was neccessary?
Correct. Therapists will ask you all types of questions and one will be your intentions to transition. To be honest, HRT is prescribed primarily, if not solely, to those that intend to transition. That is the purpose of HRT. But I think there are therapist who will give you the letter of recommendation if they know HRT alone will help with your dysphoria. I don't think lying is a good idea though.
I am doing it, and have been for than 5 years. Most of it was low dose, but full transitioning dose now. I've not had any problems passing as male, although I'm careful to hide my breasts and have a stubble instead of clean shaven - I don't look normal if I shave.
I changed to full HRT as I couldn't stand it anymore, and perhaps that will happen again and I'll transition socially as well. I'm fighting myself not transitioning, and I've discovered that can cause serious problems. I have fear about social transition, but it not my main motivation (or I hope not).
You can always try it and see how it goes. I don't think there's any reason not to, as many people don't present female immediately anyway. You might not be able to stop there, but I guess that's when you overcome the fear and finish it.
I certainly believe its possible to get a therapist to sign off on it, perhaps depending on where you are and who you'd see. I didn't even try so I can't say for sure.
If I were to do it again and seek approval, I must admit I'd be tempted to lie and tell the usual story. I don't have any moral issues doing that, and they wouldn't find out for a really long time anyway and by then its not really important. The real problem is if you actually need the therapist for therapy, and not just to sign the paperwork. Lying is going to compromise what you get out of therapy, and with the fear you have you probably need it.
Thanks everyone, and for the record I won't be trying to lie my way to getting only what I want out of therapy. I plan on somehow finding the courage to lay down all my feelings and issues and relying on the professional to help me find the best path to a happy and healthy life (if there are any).
I appreciate all the responses and kind words :)
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:52:08 AM
Thanks everyone, and for the record I won't be trying to lie my way to getting only what I want out of therapy. I plan on somehow finding the courage to lay down all my feelings and issues and relying on the professional to help me find the best path to a happy and healthy life (if there are any).
I appreciate all the responses and kind words :)
Sounds like a good plan. Best wishes to you!
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:42:59 AM
I see... So at least some therapists wouldn't approve of going on HRT unless the intention was to fully transition and live full time? That's why the lie was neccessary?
Yup, the prescribing doctor understood and was fine with it but the therapist was a bit antiquated in their thinking.
Hi Amy
I'm Kind of in the same place, though I've been on HRT for a year and a bit, and I reached that same place from a different starting point, so I'll throw out what I've got and you can see what you think.
I started full dose HRT with the intention of full transition, came out to friends and part of my family, and everyone was very accepting.
I also started 'presenting' as female on weekends and days off. I'm tall and not what you'd call of slim build. I got looks and comments, and while there was never anything really nasty, I found it increasingly difficult and eventually it was doing bad things for my self-confidence. I don't go out in female presentation at all now. As you say, life is just easier.
Having said that I'm very secure in my female identity, and HRT does make me a calmer, more rounded and nicer person. If work gets busy and i can't make the injection, my mood and sense of well-being take a nosedive.
HRT is having a slow effect, and I've lost muscle bulk and my face is not the masculine thing that it was. I also have C cup breasts. The thing is, I just went to the pool on Sunday and I went topless to swim, and nobody noticed. There are lots of guys with moobs. So despite my body and armpits being completely shaven, my hair over my ears, and my beard all but gone from laser, nobody genders me as female. It's possible to live as male and do HRT for a fair good time.
I would like to make a full transition, and this is not a dream I'm about to abandon. I'm ok with giving that time to happen.
Find a place where you are happy and and can function as a person. And I t's ok to move at your own pace on that.
Take care
A. I believe it is wrong to lie to someone in order to get Meds prescribed. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
B. One should never consider self medicating. It's dangerous, and you may think you know the right dosage, but you don't know without proper bloodwork if your body can handle it.
Quote from: Joan on February 24, 2015, 04:34:43 AM
Hi Amy
I'm Kind of in the same place, though I've been on HRT for a year and a bit, and I reached that same place from a different starting point, so I'll throw out what I've got and you can see what you think.
I started full dose HRT with the intention of full transition, came out to friends and part of my family, and everyone was very accepting.
I also started 'presenting' as female on weekends and days off. I'm tall and not what you'd call of slim build. I got looks and comments, and while there was never anything really nasty, I found it increasingly difficult and eventually it was doing bad things for my self-confidence. I don't go out in female presentation at all now. As you say, life is just easier.
Having said that I'm very secure in my female identity, and HRT does make me a calmer, more rounded and nicer person. If work gets busy and i can't make the injection, my mood and sense of well-being take a nosedive.
HRT is having a slow effect, and I've lost muscle bulk and my face is not the masculine thing that it was. I also have C cup breasts. The thing is, I just went to the pool on Sunday and I went topless to swim, and nobody noticed. There are lots of guys with moobs. So despite my body and armpits being completely shaven, my hair over my ears, and my beard all but gone from laser, nobody genders me as female. It's possible to live as male and do HRT for a fair good time.
I would like to make a full transition, and this is not a dream I'm about to abandon. I'm ok with giving that time to happen.
Find a place where you are happy and and can function as a person. And I t's ok to move at your own pace on that.
Take care
Thanks for sharing your story, Joan :) It does sound quite a bit like what I expect to experiwnce should I attempt to transition. Good luck in your journey to happiness!
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 24, 2015, 04:44:46 AM
A. I believe it is wrong to lie to someone in order to get Meds prescribed. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
B. One should never consider self medicating. It's dangerous, and you may think you know the right dosage, but you don't know without proper bloodwork if your body can handle it.
Quite right! And rest assured I have no intentions of attempting either of those things :) I've heard too many warnings against self medication to ever think of attempting it, and I sincerely want my therapista help so I will not spoil the process with lies or misleading information.
Quote from: kelly_aus on February 24, 2015, 01:15:40 AM
There are 2 thoughts wandering through my mind, more questions actually..
What happens if/when the hormones make it impossible to actually pass as a guy?
And what about if/when you change your mind?
THIS
I've been on/off Low Dose HRT several times over the decades. Low dose is a recognized treatment option to help some manage their dysphoria. It worked miracles, providing me a much need Brain Reset. I wanted/needed to live as a "Normal" male. Transition was not an option for me. After a few months to half a year I stopped. THe secondary effects of E started rearing their ugly head (An another started hiding more often), both totally contrary to "Being Normal". I got a few years or more of relief from the worse of the dysphoria which only does build up over time.
Male Fail is not even a remote possibility for me. Even with the B cup I have. Seeing a few members now in my support group show up scared and confused, eventually get on HRT, and eventually start full-time, it is not like they were trying not to do that. Between how they dressed, hair, mannerism, etc. You go andro, you go all fem. It's the natural order of things for most. For me it's more like having to "Throw the Big Switch". All or nothing.
There is no nothing to what E does to your head. Plus throw in tons more self acceptance along with a good dose of perhaps being out in the real world presenting as the real you, AKA part-timing it. That will all be the most difficult part of long term HRT, especially higher feminizing doses. Jumping back and forth is extremely difficult to do for any length of time, made all the more painfull if done on a routine, as in daily. Most tend to break after a few months of it. THe shear joy of being out in the world as the real you, wins out against the pain of going back to that other person, living a life for others.
I speak with intimate first hand knowledge of it all. I've been doing just that for a good 5 years now as I try to maintain my marriage, my career, my own sense of self which is defined by many things as well as gender. My goal starting this journey 6 years ago was to hopefully bring together these two great aspects of myself to make one whole healthy and happy person. For the most part I have. As my wife said just the other night, We both know who will eventually come out on top. And she is 100% correct. If I knew for certain my job (which I love and pays well) would be secure, I'd flip The Big Switch in a heartbeat. I know where my true joy lies
If You want to remain on HRT for long time You will need to figure out Your low-dosage, but chances are that You might become "addicted" to E and want more and more. Also once You reach certain point of no return, it starts to build up some inner pressure (which You might not be initially aware of) because, well, You left in some sort of undefined and unknown space and sometimes it makes You wondering who You really are (the negative effect which gets me at times is being some kind of misfit - not really belonging to any gender).
Your breast development might have something to say about Your prospects too - if You are thin and delicately built then bewbs will become more obvious and people might start to wonder.
As regards Your daily routines, my observation is that people are fairly ignorant and dont really want to pay attention or overanalyse things which just tend to happen before their eyes. I have many co-workers who have no idea and I know that they will not figure it out by themselves. I can also pass as a male if needed (otherwise I am pretty much full-time andro for job related reasons), but there are things which become harder to bear - like visiting male restroom or (rarely) wearing a power suit, or - for some - even wearing male clothing as such.
To sum it up, it all can be manageable and Your task is doable, yet You should be ready for some surprises or things not really going in the direction You were planning for.
Well, there is kinda difference between losing a job and spiralling downwards quickly or losing the job in the sense of support system, which would still leave one with decent savings and time to find or build alternative sources of income, isn't it?
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 24, 2015, 04:44:46 AM
A. I believe it is wrong to lie to someone in order to get Meds prescribed. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I'm probably going to be standing alone on this, but I don't agree. It's a bit theoretical, as I've never lied to get meds or any kind of treatment, but I'd have no moral problem in doing it. And I say this as someone who has very very strong objections to lying.
Normally wrong to lie, yes, but always wrong, no. I've heard of enough stories of gatekeepers that I can easily see where I'd do it.
My only concern is my health, and my health is my responsibility not anyone else's. If someone is standing in the way of that then the wrong of lying is more than counter balanced by what they are doing. The practical reason I'd not do it, apart from not needing to, is that if you need therapy its not going to work very well if you're lying about things. I've really needed therapy so I know that value of that, and its not something I'd risk lightly - again looking after my health. I can't see how therapy would be of any help from a gatekeeper though, so no issue there.
I think there's many thing in life we normally take as being clearly right or wrong, but can turn into the opposite given the right circumstances.
I agree with Muffin about lying to a doctor to get prescriptions being a bad idea, at least generally. In the case where the only reason is illogical gatekeeping, I'd be more sympathetic, but I think it'd be wise to try to shop around for a doctor / therapist with whom you can be honest. For a therapist especially, if you cannot trust them with the truth, they are not a good match for you.
Re: the original topic, I am currently on HRT (one full month of E this week!) but not making an outward transition. This is a temporary situation, and honestly, I think it would be really hard for me to do the hormones and not be planning to come out down the road. But that's just me, different people have different needs. It's not all that different from a cis girl/woman who prefers to dress and act in a typically masculine way. If that's your inclination and you don't mind being misgendered relative to your internal sense of being female, then I can totally understand not wanting to take on the additional stress and discomfort of making a public transition. The goal is to be happy, not to jump through hoops.
But sometimes there are ignorant gatekeepers... fortunately, in more and more places you can just get a prescription by asking for one. When I came out to my therapist, I told him what was going on, how I identified, and what I planned to do and he was positive and completely nonjudgmental (aside from being impressed with how comfortable I seemed to be with my newly discovered gender identity, but that's a nice judgmental). He had no hesitation when I asked if he'd write a letter for HRT, but it was unnecessary because my endocrinologist didn't want one (I offered). She didn't even have me sign anything, and I don't think she even asked about my plans for transition. She did ask a lot about my family/social situation (which is supportive and safe) and was glad that I was receiving therapy, but she apparently treats her patients as competent adults. It's a shame that not every doctor is like this, but it's worth looking around to find one.
Amy, thank you for sharing your thoughts and questions. I too feel almost exactly the way you do. I see my therapist tomorrow for the first time, and I will tell him all about who I am, how I feel, my fears of transitioning, and I will not hide anything. This will be the only way to find out what will truly be the course of action I should take. I so want to transition to who I feel I am on the inside, but my outward manliness just seems like too much to overcome. I hope your counseling goes well and you find inner peace and happiness in whatever choices you make in your life.
Hugs, Stanna
The saleswoman/marketeer in me tends to think of it more as "Telling the customer what he needs to hear", not exactly lying. I am sure there is a lot of underlying truth
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 24, 2015, 06:35:34 AM
I can also pass as a male if needed
Hi Emily,
I'm guessing that's getting harder though. Your profile pic has definitely changed a lot recently. You're looking very feminine these days.
Paige :)
When I first accepted my gender identity and started to think of transitioning, I thought I'll go as far as HRT without coming out / going full-time / social transition etc. I simply looked at it as a way to put my brain at peace without needing to do anything else. Ideally, I would want to go all the way and live the life of a cis female, but that is not fully possible, and even what is possible is difficult because of my having a wife, career, family and friends that I do not want to lose.
Actually, even HRT is difficult because of how it may affect my relationship with my wife, and possibly how I behave otherwise as well, but I thought I could work all that out and still go for HRT without social transition.
However, as I have seen on this forum and elsewhere, there may be many unexpected changes from HRT, sometimes even low-dose. I am young enough, already have some feminine features, and resemble my mom a little too much, so being on HRT and expecting to pass as male even after a year or so may become very difficult. Yes, I could probably manage it with short hair, a stubble and my male voice, but then I am already growing my hair and I like it, I am already considering facial hair removal with no possibility of HRT for at least a year or so, and my male voice will only help when I start talking, not otherwise.
So I think HRT without social transition may be an option for some people, but probably not for me. If I do go ahead with HRT and do not reach the 'male-fail' point for long or maybe ever, I may end up not transitioning socially, but it seems highly unlikely.
I've always thought the requirement some therapists have for presenting before you get the tools for presentation a bit cruel. Not everybody has the same idea of what it is to be a woman. I can imagine myself presenting as a male (appearance-wise) while going 100% through the physical transition just so I have the correct parts on my body and the correct chemistry in my brain.
When somebody is confused by this, I don't think they have a firm grasp on what gender dysphoria is, exactly. That's especially alarming when a therapist doesn't understand. In a mtf scenario, being woman and overcoming dysphoria isn't necessarily about wearing a dress or doing "girly" things; it's about being a woman. There are plenty of nontrans ciswomen who present rather masculine by cultural standards just because they want to and it doesn't make them any less a woman. The pressure for a transwoman to present as a stereotype of what a woman is "supposed" to be like is ignorant.
I found I didn't understand what HRT does mentally until I started.
Its easy to see the physical effects on people and its easy enough to relate to them, but the mental side's not like that. The point being that you can speculate on what might happen when you start, but there's only one way you're going to find out. On then will you know what you want, and even then I found that slowly changed over time.
I'm not completely satisfied where I've stopped, HRT but not social, but its ok. Before HRT I couldn't cope and now I can, and I'm reasonably happy with it. Perhaps its better to go further, but it also going to cost me a lot, and its nowhere near worth the sacrifice given how I am now. Perhaps I'm lucky in a way that my gender problems are not worse, I'm just not sure if its good luck or bad.
I've stopped having expectations of where I'm going. Nothings worked out the way I expected, and I can't even remember what I was expecting. I just take it as it goes now and see what happens.
For the OP:
Sure it's an option to take hormones and live as your assigned sex. There's no one way to be trans*. But you will encounter some people who disagree and believe you must do x, y, and z or who are otherwise skeptical of what you are suggesting. I would suggest ignoring them. You chart your own course.
You can work with your doctor to figure out doses that are low enough to get you where you want to be.
How it works out in practice varies from person to person. After about 4-6 months of low dose HRT, I lost the ability the pass as male even while walking around in a suit and tie and employing many ftm type tricks to make it work. At that point, I am not sure I could be said to be living as male.
Your mileage may vary.
It is possible; I know several folk on HRT for a variety of reasons with no intent to transition including me. In my case I was originally prescribed HRT for a misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria. My medication turned out to provide a level of peace for very different reasons once I was correctly diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder/Multiple Personality Disorder (DID/MPD). See Childhood Trauma Survivor Misdiagnosed as Transsexual with Gender Dysphoria at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,176195.new.html#new
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:31:59 AM
Honestly it is mostly that, the fact that I will never pass and always will be stared at and called "sir" no matter how hard I try. I'll probably just look ridiculous/hideous if I even tried. I know some transwomen live this life and manage to be happy in their own skin regardless (and much respect to them!) but I don't think I have it in me to live that life.
You may be surprised. I thought I would be on HRT for over a year before I changed my presentation - that I would have to consistently fail at boy mode before I felt ready. Well within a few months on hrt I just felt better overall and I stopped caring about passing. I changed my presentation everywhere but work and I went completely full time (including legal name change) at 7 months on HRT. I would say I pass about 50% of the time. Don't get me wrong, I wish I could pass and it sucks when I don't, but I just don't care enough anymore to stop me from being me.
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 24, 2015, 04:44:46 AM
A. I believe it is wrong to lie to someone in order to get Meds prescribed. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
That would be true if our healthcare system was even halfway functional for trans people. Unfortunately that is not the world we live in. If lying is the only way to obtain necessary treatment, I see that as a much better alternative to severe depression or suicide.
Just playing devils advocate, but what if you talk doctors out of a script for hormones not intending to transition, get more than you bargained on with physical changes and have trouble adjusting? No doctor would trust you past that point. It could be a much harder road than you originally got on.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 25, 2015, 12:23:12 AM
Just playing devils advocate, but what if you talk doctors out of a script for hormones not intending to transition, get more than you bargained on with physical changes and have trouble adjusting? No doctor would trust you past that point. It could be a much harder road than you originally got on.
Just playing devils advocate, but find another doctor and lie some more...
Quote from: AnonyMs on February 25, 2015, 12:27:38 AM
Just playing devils advocate, but find another doctor and lie some more...
When do they stop then? When your internal organs are mush or the person commits suicide?
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 25, 2015, 12:23:12 AM
Just playing devils advocate, but what if you talk doctors out of a script for hormones not intending to transition, get more than you bargained on with physical changes and have trouble adjusting? No doctor would trust you past that point. It could be a much harder road than you originally got on.
Then you say that you didn't receive the changes well, no different than someone who intended to fully transition and only to take a step backwards. Or no different than if you had access to a provider that didn't have such a narrow view of transgender people and was willing to prescribe HRT without intentions of fully transitioning.
Hi Jessica, I fear I may have been a bit too subtle on a sensitive subject.
There's no simple answer to the question. Where do you draw the boundaries between where people are free to make their own decisions and where others make them for them? Please excuse me for putting it this way, but I'm fine with gatekeepers telling you what to do; I'm not fine with them telling me what to do.
I find each view to be right or wrong depending on circumstances. I don't think it can be reduced to absolute right and wrong, and that was kind of my original point. You set up a situation where its wrong, so I responded with a counter argument from the lying is ok point of view, but I also did so in an interesting morally questionable way and combined with paraphrasing you I found the entire thing amusing. Yes it could cause problems, but also it could be the right thing to do. It depends. If you had a decent doctor you'd never lie, and if you did they wouldn't take it personally and would look after you anyway. But perhaps you're not capable of making your own decisions and someone should protect you.
There was a long discussion a while ago on getting SRS while presenting male. I expect you remember it, as I think you were active in it. I find the moral questions quite similar to this one.
I'm not saying its right or wrong so much as its complicated. If we were all nice to each other we'd never end up with these dilemmas.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 25, 2015, 12:30:41 AM
When do they stop then? When your internal organs are mush or the person commits suicide?
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet
I agree and disagree with this and what went before. Since the agreeing bit is not very interesting, I'll just state the other.
Qualified or not I'll trust my opinion over a doctor. I trust my opinion that when my doctor and endocrinologist state opposite views about something that its time to find a new doctor. I trust my opinion that when a (different) doctor prescribes premarin that I won't be seeing that doctor, as confirmed later by an endo. I'll trust my opinion that some of the psych's around here are not good, and that the one I did find is - pretty sure I was right about that. I'll trust my opinion that someone needs to go to the hospital instead of going home, fortunately. I seen far too many mistakes and poor practices, and I'll trust my opinion when its time to listen, when its not, and most of the time, when I've no idea. I've yet to accidentally kill myself so I think the scores in my favor so far.
I don't trust banter for much either, except pointing the way, but there's plenty of good information online. Medical research papers, medical books and so on. The problem is understanding what your read, understanding how it all fits together with everything else and that you may be completely missing something, and having some idea of how reliable your understanding is. I've read things that helped, and other things like Cindy's recent research paper that were totally incomprehensible.
What are you doing when you work out which surgeon to go to if not doubting their medical skills? If they were all perfect it wouldn't matter which one you went to. With informed consent HRT, you're making a psychiatric judgement on your own behalf that its a good idea.
I agree with the general idea of what was said, but not as an absolute truth.
I didn't research surgeons, because for every positive comment, there is someone opposing.
I went with who was closer and covered by my plan. Seeing as there is only one in Canada, it was pretty easy.
I glad you have faith in your research and self diagnosis. I wish you well.
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
I glad you have faith in your research and self diagnosis. I wish you well.
I'm not really self diagnosing, I'm choosing which doctor to believe.
I think its probably best if I stop discussing this particular aspect of things for a while.
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet
Not all lying to doctors is equal, though. I would never advise lying about effects, other medications, etc, or disregarding an endocrinologist's advice about dosages, blood test results, medication choices, etc. for just the reasons that have been brought up. However, that is way different from lying because the endo has an arbitrary gatekeeper mentality that does not acknowledge your personal transgender narrative because it's not the stock narrative.
It'd still be far better to find a more understanding endo (or therapist or whatever), but that's not always an option. I personally would shop around as much as I could if I ran into a roadblock like this, but that's easy to say since I have not had any trouble with the official route.
Quote from: Muffinheart on February 25, 2015, 04:46:14 AM
Exactly!
Apparently the Internet has turned people into qualified physicians and endocrinologists.
I would never put faith in information online because every medication has pros and cons. Because of that, and because I'm not qualified to give medical advice,I'm rely on my doctors. It's not blind faith, but I'll trust them over banter off the internet
If it wasn't for the internet, I would be getting very poor care from my endo. He has no clue what he is doing, and if I had put my faith in him and not gone to the internet for research, I would still be getting inadequate care.
Quote from: skin on February 25, 2015, 10:16:50 AM
If it wasn't for the internet, I would be getting very poor care from my endo. He has no clue what he is doing, and if I had put my faith in him and not gone to the internet for research, I would still be getting inadequate care.
Sorry to hear about your inept endo. I must be very lucky, because most of the trans folks in my city go to one of two endo. So there is a history of relatively good advice. Of course I'm assuming that.
My family doctor has never had a trans patient before, but it doesn't really change our relationship other than she's all over me about mammograms. Now that I'm post op, there is little change in what happens or how she looks after me. It's not like I'm menopausal or require a Pap smear....so just annual checkup, usual bloodwork and the ugly prostate exam ugh!
HRT dosages are tricky for people who have no intention of transitioning. The OBGYN I was referred to by my psychologist had worked with hundreds of transsexuals and had absolutely no idea what to prescribe. After discussing it with my wife and me, he decided to put me on the same transition level dosage a non-transtioning friend of mine has been on for 10+ years. The physical side effects have been minimal (albeit I am extremely androgynous anyway) and my medication has brought me a level of peace for over 5 years now.
Quote from: Amy85 on February 24, 2015, 01:26:49 AMI doubt hormones could change me enough to ever have someone assume I am a woman while presenting as a man. I am very manly in body, face, and voice.
This actually puts you in a position to experience a tremendous amount of physical side effects from HRT. It's a bit self-evident when you think about it, but hormones have the most drastic physical effect for people whose bodies exhibit strong secondary sexual characteristics of their gender assigned at birth. I am extremely androgynous. My female alter had no problems with people seeing her as a woman preHRT and I don't have any problems with people seeing me as a guy after 5 years on a full transition level regimen. I get compliments from all my buddies on my great pecs when I go without a shirt in the summer and my female alter is comfortable wearing a bikini to the beach without shaving the fine hair that remains on my chest, legs and under my arms. Add in the fact that I am a rail skinny 5'10" 144 pound ectomorph and their just isn't any fat to push around to give me womanly curves. My wife and I were both extremely relieved the physical side effects of my medication were so minimal. The huge positive of HRT for me was chemical castration. As a survivor of childhood abuse, sterility gave my mind peace in knowing I can never have children of my own and the cycle of abuse ends with me.
I am going to be doing this for awhile. While it would be nice if I get male fail, if I end up at a job where they are not accepting and do not have protections, I will probably present as male for the job in order to get money. I've already started hormones, and I still present completely male.
That is not my long term plan, but I do think it is an option until you can get to a point physically, geographically, and socially where you can make the social transition and present full time. I know some doctors and therapists aren't cool with this, but mine don't seem to expect me to present as female right now.
In my opinion, the ultimate goal should be to get to a place where you can present as the gender you identify with and feel comfortable. But I think in various circumstances that presenting as your GAAB is an option. I would just caution that hormones can change your body drastically to the point where that is not an option, and you might start experiencing even strong feelings of social dysphoria if you're transitioning physically and still being misgendered. I don't know though because I'm not very far into the process.
I've been on HRT for years and have not yet gone full time. Although every year I say this is the one where I'm going to get FFS, finances and other things get in the way. I have approached male fail and am passible without effort, but without FFS I don't even want to attempt going full time. I'll do everything on my timeline when I'm damn good and ready.
Quote from: Christine Eryn on February 26, 2015, 12:09:34 AM
I've been on HRT for years and have not yet gone full time. Although every year I say this is the one where I'm going to get FFS, finances and other things get in the way. I have approached male fail and am passible without effort, but without FFS I don't even want to attempt going full time. I'll do everything on my timeline when I'm damn good and ready.
I love your post :P I think what was freaking me out was that the only trans person I know is my aunt who (from my point of view) came out of the closet and started living full time and name change and everything very quickly. I know there is no way I could handle doing what she did. I'm a big fan of your approach of doing things "when you're damn good and ready" :P
First therapy session is Friday morning. I'm scared but also curious what she will find. I know it won't be that day, but down the road... what will she tell me? Am I trans? Am I just messed up? Should I transition? Should I manage my feelings with pills and just be a man? I have mixed feelings. I know I really want to be female but at the same time transitioning seems to impossibly hard, especially for a tall, muscly, wide-shouldered, deep voiced peraon like me. And when it comes down to it I know how to be a man, but not how to be a woman. When it comes to being a woman I don't even know how to walk right >.< Acting like the man I've been for 29 years is natural, so the temptation to just continue to repress and fade into the background is strong.
Quote from: Amy85 on February 26, 2015, 01:11:14 AM
First therapy session is Friday morning. I'm scared but also curious what she will find. I know it won't be that day, but down the road... what will she tell me? Am I trans? Am I just messed up? Should I transition? Should I manage my feelings with pills and just be a man?
I understand where you're coming from with this as I had the many of the same thoughts, but its not how I found therapy worked. It was more working though things until I knew the answer myself. Most of that questioning was a long time ago, but I remember well the the last sessions with my psych. I didn't ask him if I was cured, I told him I was started running out of things I wanted to talk about and I didn't see much point in coming in anymore. He was fine with that.
When I got started with therapy I'd heard the classic transgender narrative, and I didn't fit it. That was terribly confusing. What I didn't realize back then although its obvious now is that transgender is a spectrum, not yes or no. Thinking about that way I was definitely on it, the only question was where and what to do about it.
Quote from: AnonyMs on February 26, 2015, 02:01:33 AM
I understand where you're coming from with this as I had the many of the same thoughts, but its not how I found therapy worked.
I'm not surprised, and if it takes months of a therapist just helping me to find the answers for myself then it's still worth it. Still though, I really really wish I could just plop down on a couch and ramble incohearantly for an hour and a half and then receive a concise explanation of exactly how I am messed up and a step by step guide to dealing with my problem :P
Also I want to win the lottery and have magic powers.
I'm not sure but I think many of my difficulties came being kind of in the middle, so it wasn't blindly obvious. If it was obvious then perhaps you could tell your story and get the instant diagnosis - only you probably did that as a child already. Perhaps someone else can say how it goes in that situation? I'd like to know.
If only I'd known back then what I've been reading in these forums, I think I'd have known the answer and been a lot happier for it. I feel I'm not a very common type, but definitely in there. I think its a basic human need to be part of a group, and when you're not its very uncomfortable. While it does have its good moments, overall I'm not too happy about being transgender - but I'd far rather be transgender than still questioning.
Once that's over the next problem was what to do, and again that was difficult as it wasn't really clear if I had to do anything. I started with low dose, with no particular intention to transition, and that also left me feeling isolated. I still feel different, and I'm doing my own thing, but I've accepted that it doesn't matter. It took a while though.
Amy85, You know, I had the same issues when I first contemplated that maybe I should finally try to do something about this all instead of going back into complete denial and repressing everything with hate and fire. When I was looking into mirror, all I saw was that strongly built, wide-shouldered person with strong facial muscles, and I was thinking - there is just no way how this could look like a woman...
The truth is, we get from transition as much as we put into it. And, surprisingly, people who have the most unexpectable outcomes were quite masculine in their looks. Because if You are feminine or androgynous in Your appearance, HRT wont have that drastic effect or it might take longer time. But if You look like an average man chances are Your acquaintances might not recognise You after a year or two on HRT.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 26, 2015, 03:08:24 AM
Amy85, You know, I had the same issues when I first contemplated that maybe I should finally try to do something about this all instead of going back into complete denial and repressing everything with hate and fire. When I was looking into mirror, all I saw was that strongly built, wide-shouldered person with strong facial muscles, and I was thinking - there is just no way how this could look like a woman...
The truth is, we get from transition as much as we put into it. And, surprisingly, people who have the most unexpectable outcomes were quite masculine in their looks. Because if You are feminine or androgynous in Your appearance, HRT wont have that drastic effect or it might take longer time. But if You look like an average man chances are Your acquaintances might not recognise You after a year or two on HRT.
Yes I have seen some amazing transformations between the before and after pics in timelines. One of my favourite things to do of late is browse the /r/transtimelines sub->-bleeped-<- and marvel at all the amazing changes all those people have gone through. It gives me a little hope for myself despite realizing that bone structure and voice will always hold me back from passing. I browse those timelines until I am overcome with awe... and jealousy at all the beautiful women who used to look like men with sad looks on their faces :( My feelings on the matter change so much but right now I feel like going for broke on the medical side and living with one foot on either side of the gender fence if I have to.
Amy, I have very similar thoughts and doubts that you are expressing. I just had my first session with my gender therapist yesterday, and part of me was hoping she would tell me your not transgendered get the hell out of here and man up. Well, that did not happen, I think she saw in me the girl that I know is so desperately trying to come out after being suppressed for so many years. So I am hoping after 16 more weeks of counseling I will be not be on the "gender fence" as you put it. I hope you find your inner peace, and live a happy life.
Hugs, Stanna
Quote from: Mara on February 25, 2015, 11:32:23 PM
In my opinion, the ultimate goal should be to get to a place where you can present as the gender you identify with and feel comfortable.
IMHO, the point of any and all that we do is get to a point where we feel comfortable, period. What it takes and how it can be accomplished is different for each and every one of us.
I've been on HRT for 5 years now. I am mostly at a place now where I am mostly content being me. I have, for the first time ever, a body I am mostly happy to be in. I put a tremendous effort into my emotional health. I now feel I mostly accomplished the goal I set forth nearly 6 years ago to make one whole, healthy, and happy person out of the disparate yet important, aspects of myself, with one kept mostly locked away from even me. I mostly still present male.
In an ideal world I would go full-time in an instant. I know I am finally up to the challenges, if I had to. Luckily I am not a member of the Transition or Die club. Came close to joining a few times but never signed. My wife, my career, my obligations, all tend to keep me from making the jump. They are all as important to me as gender, perhaps more so. But, I know where my true joy lies. It is as Joanne, living, breathing, and being her, 24/7
Quote from: JoanneB on February 26, 2015, 08:09:19 PM
IMHO, the point of any and all that we do is get to a point where we feel comfortable, period. What it takes and how it can be accomplished is different for each and every one of us.
So very true
First ever session of therapy! https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183834.msg1632616.html#msg1632616
I said this many times before, I dont feel the need to announce im becoming a she. People will figure it out. We are all different, personally in more androgynous on the fenale side, and theres nothing wrong with that. It all depends on your comfort zone. I wear gorls clothing but noone can tell and they dont say anything becuase im cool in their eyes. Just find your own style and try not to worry too much about what others think about your gender, try and focus on what makes you happy.
Amy, there seems to be something wrong with you link. I found it here.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183834
Congratulations! Big step forward.
Quote from: Nikki_Taz on February 28, 2015, 07:04:10 AM
I said this many times before, I dont feel the need to announce im becoming a she. People will figure it out. We are all different, personally in more androgynous on the fenale side, and theres nothing wrong with that. It all depends on your comfort zone. I wear gorls clothing but noone can tell and they dont say anything becuase im cool in their eyes. Just find your own style and try not to worry too much about what others think about your gender, try and focus on what makes you happy.
That's what I plan to do for a while. I don't think I'll let pronouns get to me because I'll expect to be gendered in all sorts of fashions during my transition. I'm hoping it will be obvious when to start properly gendering me. Being called a "she" at this point almost seems patronizing to me (unless it's from my wife; I love that) so I don't really feel like pushing anybody out of their comfort zones just because I'm not in mine.