Hi. What is the pros and cons between two? Which is more effective? Why do people switch from gel to injection after servals months?
I'm also quite curious for the answers to these questions, my Doc has recently asked if I would be happy to go on Gel, sort of as a guinea pig, so I'm hesitant without knowing about it.
As for the last question, from what I've seen/read so far, doctors sometimes give people gel to start off with until they're worked up to a full dose, or if they have a phobia of needles.
I can tell you my experiences as I've been on injections (both sustanon and nebido) and gel (androgel). Know that these are my experiences and by far not the norm.
I started my transition with gel and got all the expected changes that you would expect within three months. Nothing major, but down stairs growth and the start of the lowering of the voice. After three months I started sustanon because the daily application of a gel can be a hassle for someone who often works out. The general rules for gel are to apply it in the morning after a shower (in the morning is also the time T levels for cis guys are highest) and then to not shower 6 hours after applying the gel.
Sustanon gave me issues. A normal dose is given every two weeks, but I got major acne and it turned out my T levels were way too high. Even reducing it to a shot every 3/4 weeks barely helped. The stuff just spiked my levels too much. I had to go on accutane to get rid of the acne, and went back to androgel to smoothen my levels out after about half a year on sustanon. The acne soon disappeared.
After being on the gel again for almost a year, I wanted to try Nebido. This is an injection that is given every three months, and is said to be more stable than sustanon as it is slow releasing. I've had one injection and my next one will be next week (it was delayed due to surgery) and I've had no problems whatsoever so far.
So, to summarize. Gel keeps your t levels more constant, but needs a routine to be applied everyday. I do not really understand the hate towards the gel that I see on some forums. It gave me all the expected changes and good T levels. Sustanon is easy and cheap, but spikes your T levels which may or may not lead to issues. Nebido is expensive, but very convenient as it is only done 4 times a year and keeps your T levels relatively constant too.
Hi! What means by down stars growth? How is it? And how long would periods stop after on gel or injections? Compare with gel, would the T levels change a little bit more or more constant?
Thanks for sharing your experience. It is really helpful.
For the comparison with gel, I mean the Nebido.
With down stairs growth I mean your junk grows on T. This usually happens within the first few months.
When periods stop is very hard to say because it varies a lot between individuals. Mine stopped after 2-3 months, which seems pretty standard. Others never have a visit from aunt flo after starting, while some go on for half a year before it stops.
Whether being on gel or on injections influences how quickly your periods stop can not be dissociated from individual variations, and is thus hard to tell.
Gel is always more consistent. You do spike your t levels every day, but only minorly so. Nebido still gives a peak at the start of the injection. Look at this graph for example.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fanabolicminds.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2F%252025826d1233507945-my-results-nebido-tenanthate-kinetics.jpg%2520.att%3Fstc%3D1&hash=9956628bda9a90a7639ce942b95c2afc1271e4ee)
The Enanthate 250 (which is like sustanon) is the grey line and the Nebido (also known as Undecanoate) is the red line. You can clearly see that nebido still spikes.
Compare that to this graph:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.medscape.com%2Fslide%2Fmigrated%2Feditorial%2Fcmecircle%2F2008%2F14665%2Fimages%2F56921_dobs_figure_1smaller.jpg&hash=c79bdc2ed3325365560b5e635caed4a456ec873c)
Here gel and sustanon are compared. I apologize for the different T units used in the graphs, but you get the idea. You can clearly see how stable the patch/gel levels are compared to the sustanon and to a lesser extend the nebido injection.
The people I know who switched to injections did it for one of two reasons. 1) the daily hassle was too annoying for them. 2) trying to be mindful of not getting it on other people was too much trouble.
There are a lot of myths re: gel. I know two guys, one of them is particularly hairy and but both did their whole transition on gel. I have also never injected and know another guy who started about when I did about two years ago. We both are read as male nearly 100% of the time. (I maybe a bit less so given my size and body build.)
There are a few people who really don't absorb the gel very well. I think the concerns re: getting it on others is somewhat overdone as there are many ways of preventing this. ONe is to apply in the mornings on your shoulders/upper arms and then put on a t-shirt. I know several people with kids and spouses who are the only one with the beards. :)
I believe that it is possible that gel is slower, though I am not sure that some of this is not related to the fact that many people on gel actually do start on a lower dose. Another downside is that it is normally more expensive (though covered by NHS and some insurances in the US), also in the US can buy compounded cream which is cheaper. But still it is more expensive. Some find it messy or just want to deal with it every day. I don't find this a problem, seems like just a few minutes. Some do not like the daily reminder that they are on T.
Huge advantage is the very even level of T which is much more similar the way cis men process their T.
One other advantage is some T related medical issues are lessened on gel, for instance the high red blood count condition.
--Jay
I've personally never injected, so I'm only speaking from a gel experience. I've been on since the beginning of December (half dose from December-January, full dose from January-present). I could list my pros and cons, but I think that's more of your assessment to make based on my experience. I don't see myself switching to injections unless cost somehow becomes an issue.
Generally:
- Applied daily
- Somewhat sticky, need to wait for it to dry before I put a shirt on
- Need to be mindful about females and children being exposed
- For me, cheaper than injections ($22/90 day supply of Testim)
Positive effects since starting:
- Body hair growth, thickening
- Voice deepening
- Downstairs growth
- Facial hair starting to come in
- Increased muscle capabilities (I can lift heavy things more easily than before)
- No more shark week
Negative effects since starting:
- Forever hungry
Personally, I think gel is really convenient to fit in with my morning routine. I'm not crazy about needles either. I've had an excellent experience with it. I also think there's something to what Jay said about gel and hair growth. My boyfriend is also trans, and he remarked that I was super hairy for not being on T for too long. He also recently switched to gel after almost two years on injections and has noticed that his arm and leg hair is starting to fill in more.
I don't actually think gel makes you hairier, just if you have the genetics for it it will happen. For me, I'm on compounded cream and it's actually pretty inexpensive. I pay $70/for a jar. The jar lasts me 4 months. I seem to be absorbing it VERY well.
--Jay
Which pharmacy are you getting that through? I'm planning a big move in the next two years and I'm not sure my pharmacy will ship/accept prescriptions from doctors outside the clinic I currently go to.
Hello! I have any other question that I am curious about. I have put gel on arms, stomach, legs. Which area is most effective for putting on gel? I think it must have an answer as differents area of the body are different in sensitive, body fat mass, thickness of skin, etc.
Quote from: hkftmhkftmfk on March 05, 2015, 02:56:38 AM
Hello! I have any other question that I am curious about. I have put gel on arms, stomach, legs. Which area is most effective for putting on gel? I think it must have an answer as differents area of the body are different in sensitive, body fat mass, thickness of skin, etc.
The directions that come with my gel say to apply to the upper arms and shoulders for best absorption and ease of use (keeping other people from coming into contact with it). If I have a lot of excess gel that isn't rubbing in nicely, I'll rub it on my stomach/chest.
I get mine from a compounding pharmacy here in Albuquerque. We actually have a few of these. A few pharmacies ship (like strohecker's), but there is also this I found the other day: http://www.pccarx.com/contact-us/find-a-compounder
--Jay
Hey there,
I was on injections (1 shot bi weekly) for a year and while it worked well for me, I often had 2 things happen that eventually had me turn to gel.
1. I would experience major mood drops and swings in the coming days to my shot
2. I would have extreme anxiety in doing my shot. I had no one else to give it to me and visiting my dr office every 2 weeks wasn't a viable option.
I switched to the compounded format of androgel 2 weeks ago
I apply 2 pumps every day around my ribs or inner thigh daily. (I would do shoulders but acne, aka "open sores" is not recommended)
Obviously haven't been on the gel for too long but I haven't noticed anything different expect for the first week I was a bit moody because of the changing of T dosing.
In my opinion though, applying a gel once a day that takes less than 2 minutes total is well worth it for me than the shot ever was.
I would take 10 minutes just preparing for my shots. Opening the packages of needles, bottle, cleaning the things and leg spot.. and by the time I got everything ready my hands were shaking so hard I could barely do it. I was close to having panic attacks it was getting to that point for me. Which is so weird because I have no fear of needles.
But this option, for my self, works wonderfully for not only my anxiety but the mood swings.
Quote from: Mr.X on March 01, 2015, 08:14:40 AM
I can tell you my experiences as I've been on injections (both sustanon and nebido) and gel (androgel). Know that these are my experiences and by far not the norm.
I started my transition with gel and got all the expected changes that you would expect within three months. Nothing major, but down stairs growth and the start of the lowering of the voice. After three months I started sustanon because the daily application of a gel can be a hassle for someone who often works out. The general rules for gel are to apply it in the morning after a shower (in the morning is also the time T levels for cis guys are highest) and then to not shower 6 hours after applying the gel.
Sustanon gave me issues. A normal dose is given every two weeks, but I got major acne and it turned out my T levels were way too high. Even reducing it to a shot every 3/4 weeks barely helped. The stuff just spiked my levels too much. I had to go on accutane to get rid of the acne, and went back to androgel to smoothen my levels out after about half a year on sustanon. The acne soon disappeared.
After being on the gel again for almost a year, I wanted to try Nebido. This is an injection that is given every three months, and is said to be more stable than sustanon as it is slow releasing. I've had one injection and my next one will be next week (it was delayed due to surgery) and I've had no problems whatsoever so far.
So, to summarize. Gel keeps your t levels more constant, but needs a routine to be applied everyday. I do not really understand the hate towards the gel that I see on some forums. It gave me all the expected changes and good T levels. Sustanon is easy and cheap, but spikes your T levels which may or may not lead to issues. Nebido is expensive, but very convenient as it is only done 4 times a year and keeps your T levels relatively constant too.
Is there any justification as to why apply it in the morning more than because that's how cisguys have the highest dose? I've ended up consistently applying it during evenings and sometimes even late at night and I don't have much issues.
I also take a lower dose of gel than typical where I take about half (one bag/every other day) and it works great for me. It leads to a little spike but stable spikes. I can't increase my dose or I get problems with too high T. I haven't had a blood check in a while though.
You are right that showers mess it up, hence taking it before sleep isn't too bad. Some complain about getting more energy from application though, but I usually only get a little horny but nowadays not even that. I've been on gel for over a year.
I can't comment on injections as I haven't had it yet. Gel is fine but a little messy. Also more difficult with intimate physical contact with non-dudes.
Edit: I'm on Androgel.
Quote from: Ephemeral on March 25, 2015, 12:40:42 PM
Is there any justification as to why apply it in the morning more than because that's how cisguys have the highest dose? I've ended up consistently applying it during evenings and sometimes even late at night and I don't have much issues.
In my case, my doctor encouraged the morning application because it fit my schedule. She wanted me to apply it after a shower while my pores were the most open so that absorption would be higher. She also mentioned something about testosterone "amping" people up to the point that they'd find it difficult to sleep if they were to apply it in the evening. It didn't have that effect on me in the morning, so not sure how true that is.
I just switched from gel to injections because the price of Testim in my market increased exponentially over the last 3 months. If cost was not a factor, gel would still be my preference.
Quote from: ftmax on March 25, 2015, 12:51:16 PM
In my case, my doctor encouraged the morning application because it fit my schedule. She wanted me to apply it after a shower while my pores were the most open so that absorption would be higher. She also mentioned something about testosterone "amping" people up to the point that they'd find it difficult to sleep if they were to apply it in the evening. It didn't have that effect on me in the morning, so not sure how true that is.
I just switched from gel to injections because the price of Testim in my market increased exponentially over the last 3 months. If cost was not a factor, gel would still be my preference.
I can't say that the absorption rate post or pre shower is much of an issue to me. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference anyway. I can occasionally get energy spikes but not commonly. I for example put it on 3 am yesterday and I was so tired I almost fainted on my way to bed though it was partially caused by sleep deprivation. I'd like to switch to injections though, mostly because I find gel a bit of a hassle and my SO is a woman.
It more fits my schedule to put it on at night. But if it didn't I would switch. I think if you are in a relationship esp with a woman, you might want to do morning. This is because you are less likely to need to deal with exposure issues. Probably same thing with kids. You put it on in A.M. then put on a t-shirt. You don't need to worry about it.
I'm not having issues sleeping or anything. I don't feel any difference when I put it on whatever.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on March 26, 2015, 02:20:38 PM
It more fits my schedule to put it on at night. But if it didn't I would switch. I think if you are in a relationship esp with a woman, you might want to do morning. This is because you are less likely to need to deal with exposure issues. Probably same thing with kids. You put it on in A.M. then put on a t-shirt. You don't need to worry about it.
I'm not having issues sleeping or anything. I don't feel any difference when I put it on whatever.
--Jay
Depends if you sleep with a shirt on? I sleep with a shirt mostly due to dysphoria. Also, can't edit my previous post anymore but I lied that I'm Androgel. I'm not, it's Testogel, though I suppose the brand name doesn't matter much since it's the same stuff.
I went from injections to gel then back to injections.
I wanted to try the gel to keep my levels more stable.
It seems to vary a lot, but for me, the gel was way more expensive on my insurance. Gel was $50/month, injections work out to about $5/month for me.
If I already have facial hair before starting any T therapy, what would be most noticeable if I begin the gel? I only want a low dose, so I'm not expecting drastic changes, or fast changes, just something to look for.