Sorry for being an interloper, but another post on here made me think of a topic that I'm wondering about. I've met a number of FTMs who seemingly don't hang with men. They never seem to be around guys, and don't have a preference or seeming need for male friendship or bonding. So, what I'm asking is, do you feel that, whether or not you deeply feel in your heart you are male, do you like being with men, particularly natal-men? Do you have a wish to be around groups of men or close man to man friendship? How often are you around natal-males in a friendship role? Do you ever feel intimidated or not accepted by natal-males when you seek this out?
curious,
Gina M.
I do enjoy hanging out with men. I sometimes feel like I'm missing some of the social codes with straight men because most of my male friends have been gay men. I enjoy the kind of putting each other down teasing that straight guys do and am still learning my limits with it (how to be offensive enough to get a laugh, but not too offensive).
I like hanging out with women too, as long as they're not hair, shoes and makeup obsessed.
Dennis
I like hanging around with men however most of them are gay males however not camp... some are some aren't I haven't really got a preference on which sex I like to be around a both sexes are different to me it depends on the person... however if I had to choose... It would be.... um... male. As I would relate to males better..
However I have more female friends than I do male and I am fine with that... I don't need a male relationship in my life...
I thrive off peoples personalities.. so there sex doesn't really come into the agenda.
The only male friends i have are the guys at work. I have a small circle of female friends and thats just about it for me with friends.
Though, i do enjoy the banter with the guys at work. We go out for drinks, we have a laugh and we can have some great convo's that you just couldn't have with a girl. I would like more male friends... but i find it difficult to make friends on my own.
I don't have too many female friends -- never have. I just can't relate. When I was little, I thought there was something wrong with me. I couldn't really socialize with girls -- they just seemed to goody-goody! -- and usually ran with the boys. Still do, of course, but now it feels normal. I do relate well to gay guys, but most of my male friends are straight.
My own personal experience with FTM in support groups and elsewhere is that unless they transitioned young and are physically able to take space in men's space and have the sufficient cultural background to fit in, it wil be hard for them to fit in.
I think its easier for a MTF to integrate with women than FTM to integrate with men. Women accept more MTF and FTM.
That means that its also harder for MTF to have romantic coupling with men than FTM to have romantic coupling with women. In
I know of one FTM who fit really well, other older ones don't fit so well, and are
I don't think guys have the same sort of friendships that women do, Gina. It's usually centred around doing something, like drinking beer and watching sports, or going fishing. The depth of conversation sometimes will extend to talking about splitting up with a wife or something, but usually is that banter that guys do. And catching up with what's going on. Sometimes talking politics with friends who work in forestry or fishing (two jobs that politics impact quite heavily where I live). Other times, it's cars, women, boy toys, and bikes. If I'm with lawyer friends, we talk about cases and quirky judges and stuff.
I think there is stuff that's more in depth there, but you don't really dwell on it, like women will. Women can dissect a 3 minute argument for days. Men will say something like "she doesn't like me going out for beers after work because you guys had to pour me in the door last week." And that's the end of it, other than it serving as good fodder for banter later. Like, "grab me a beer while you're up"..."shouldn't you call your wife for permission first?"
It's just not the same as women's friendships, and I like the male version better. You know what's going on, but you don't have to go on and on and on about it.
As far as what I do with my male friends, if they're the loggers and fishermen, it's usually drinking beer, going to a ball game or going fishing. If it's the motorbike buddies, we hang out at the bike shop and talk bikes. The lawyers, we go to a retired judge's house and hang out with some beers and talk.
A good friend is one you can call up at 3 AM and say "I'm in jail and I need a ride home" and they'll come and get you. A great friend is in the cell next to you.
Dennis
I would say I've got two male friends who I love and would call best friends. Both are gay. Chris and Lyle. We've known each other for 30 years and I'm surprised I wasn't in a cell with one or both of them at some point. We did get up to some things in our youth, especially Chris and I.
Dennis
It would be more interesting to find out about the post-transition relationships, cause that would be the ones that truly reveal the ability to build new relationships afterwards
I'm surprised at how often I hear women -- both trans and GG -- talk about straight men not having "deep" or "close" relationships with other men, or not having strong emotions or feelings. Sure, there are a lot of fart jokes, but we do talk about serious things and we do care about each other. Women say that men can't communicate, but I've often said that women just can't understand how men communicate. Women see a group of men making jokes and watching TV, and that's all they see, but it's often a complex competition for dominance or a bonding experience. (I can't believe I just said "bonding experience.")
QuoteI think there is stuff that's more in depth there, but you don't really dwell on it, like women will. Women can dissect a 3 minute argument for days.
I don't miss that at all! Especially since it's usually glaringly obvious that some guy made an offhand comment and they interpreted it a million different ways. "Did he mean I'm fat? Or did he mean I'm fat compared to my friends? Or did he mean I'm not fat but I could stand to lose a little weight or that I'm fat but he doesn't care or my friends are skinnier than I am or I should go on Atkins or..." Sigh.
QuoteMy own personal experience with FTM in support groups and elsewhere is that unless they transitioned young and are physically able to take space in men's space and have the sufficient cultural background to fit in, it wil be hard for them to fit in.
This may be because it's hard to shift from a "cooperative" (female) environment to a "competitive" (male) environment. Having two brothers (and transitioning at 17), I was prepared for it. Some aren't, and stay in the lesbian, gay, or female community. To me, they're missing out on a lot. There's something to be said for the "secret men's club" (as Matt Kailey phrased it in his book). I adjusted quickly and even became a sort of alpha male, which is a hell of a lot of fun! :-* :-* :-* :-*
Competitive, in some ways. The weightlifting, I get competitive with the guys who don't work physical labour for a living. The guys who do work physical labour, there's no chance for me to catch up and they know it.
As far as the dick thing goes, most straight guys I know don't know about the fact that I'm hung like a hamster. I say it, but only in a joking way. The few who know laugh but that's one of the things they'd never tease me about. It's like having a disability. We might be ->-bleeped-<-s, but unless you know someone's totally comfortable with having a disability, you're not going to tease them about it.
It's not like, at least with the guys I hang with, that you're going to pick on someone so far behind you to make yourself feel good. You compete with people who have a chance of beating you. Then you take it in stride if you get beaten. That's why nobody who knows will bug me about how unendowed I am, but the better I get at lifting, the more the stronger guys will take me on. That's a compliment for me.
Dennis
My closest friends are in the ground.
all my buddies are bio dudes. been hangin out w/dudes since age 12. cant relate w/most chicks for friends. but I only like girls for love & relatinships.
only got three trans dudes friends. dont hang out together to much. da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way. talk dat way. sit like dis. talk 2 girls like dat. i dont like dat. i like being me. this is me. maybe to masculine but this is me. i dont make believe im masculine. im a dude and dat comes natural for me. bio dudes dont give a &$*% how u talk. sit. dress. ur a dude thats it. they dont bother w/sh#t like dat. i dont like to be told how i gotta be. act. talk. bio dudes dont care. trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not. thats why i hnag out w/bio dudes all da time. they are like me.
Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 12:22:27 AM
Okay, but tell me about your man to man relationships. Like, what guys are you close with, where do you know them from, do you ever feel competitive with them from a standpoint of being trans vs. them being cisgendered? Do you feel as if there's ever an issue about having a dick vs. not having a typical dick (a legit question, guys, not a joke)? Do you ever think about your physical strength compared to theirs? No, believe it or not, there's a lot more to men's relationships than that, it's just it's so rare that I ever hear transmen talk about anything like that. Again, the large majority of transmen I ever see never hang with straight men at all. The ones I know and see, if they're ever with men it's gay men or other transmen. And I'd like to hear from transmen themselves what that's all about and is it true? Not theories, but from your real lives.
ciao,
Gina M.
ps and I'm not suggesting it's only true of transmen. There are many transwomen who just can't hang out with natal women (especially non-queer ones), can't talk to them or just don't find them interesting. They hang with guys or other transwomen. I have a hard time wrapping myself around that one too because women are such a big part of my life.
Well, I'll try to answer your question from my own perspective, (speaking only for myself and not as the 'Universal Trainman' of course) But the fact that you've asked and re-asked the question points out the truth of what Dennis was saying about Women dissecting things for days, vs minutes. ;)
And that's just it... it's not that one is better than the other, and yes, I can totally enjoy the complete thrashing of some topics - depending on my mood and the topic. But... that's certainly one of the biggest differences I see between hanging with the guys vs the girls.
As it happens, I really enjoy hanging with the guys from work, and relate to them on the whole better than the women. Time restraints have kept me from a lot of socializing a lot with either, but the time I spend sure shows a difference. With the women, I find the same things being repeated again and again. With the men, there's always a different subject, and the topic wanders much more freely.
I've found that, as Dennis said, males handle competition much more differently than women do, and while there IS a definite competitiveness, it's a much more open and honest one. Moreover, there's a sense of self-depreciation (esp when the guys are by themselves) that women seldom see or appreciate - almost like instead of who's the biggest stud or the strongest guy, many guys are the first to say they're hung like a snail, or are "3 minute men", etc.
You could go into volumes about what this means, consciously or sub-consciously, but I suspect it boils down to this - guys like joking around and having fun - even if the jokes on them. And the guy who puts himself down the most (with the appropriate moderation), is sometimes the one that the other guys actually respect the most. Maybe because he becomes the one the rest feel is without bragging or BS, or ego... I don't know, but it just makes a guy more likeable.
Think of some of the greatest comedians - they often are great at putting themselves down because that just makes other people more comfortable. Granted, there's some great women comedians who do the same, but it somehow seems more like a guy thing. Maybe because too, it's just a refreshing change from the more stereotypical male ego thing. ;)
Who knows..? I'm rambling here... sorry folks. Kinda hard to pin a question like this down I guess.
Scott
Lately, they found out, by attaching mikes and mp3 recorders that recorded stretches of words at random intervals, to college men and women and recording them for a month, that men and women talk exactly the same amount of words. The thing that differ most, men don't tend to talk a lot about relationships and disclose inner feelings. Men, when started on certain subjects cannot be stopped (cars, golf, lawmowers, etc.).
Since men don't like talking about relationships and women do, that obviously can cause much grief in couples... In those situation, men will indeed shut up, and the women will go on and on, which expresses the stereotype of women talking more (but this is just one particular context).
You're so right, Keira. A good way to torture a man is to say "we need to talk. Meet you in an hour?". He'll spend the next hour trying to figure out what he could possibly have done wrong and dreading the marathon of beating it into the ground.
And, Gina, most of us are only a few years into transition. That's too short a time to develop a best friends type relationship. That's why you're not hearing about post-transition best buds.
Dennis
Quote from: Chris on August 28, 2007, 02:19:30 AM
da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way. talk dat way. sit like dis. talk 2 girls like dat. trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not.
Wow, that's very unheard of in the TG community, Chris. ::) ::) ::) ;) ;D
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on August 28, 2007, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: Chris on August 28, 2007, 02:19:30 AM
da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way. talk dat way. sit like dis. talk 2 girls like dat. trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not.
Wow, that's very unheard of in the TG community, Chris. ::) ::) ::) ;) ;D
tink :icon_chick:
Yeah no kidding. I feel lucky to have transitioned in a small town, being the only one (although there are a couple of others, but I don't know them). At least nobody tells me how I should act or dress or that I'm not 'trans enough'. I see enough of that crap online.
Dennis
Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 08:38:43 AM
So you're saying transmen tend to be more insecure than natal men and, maybe, a little less controlling?
insecure about being "real trans or real dude". dunno. I'm a masculine dude. I aint an xtreme masculine dude. I like sweatshirts. sometimes all colors. green. red. they say that "real dudes dont wear red or yellow". bull sh#t. my bio buddies wear colors like that all time. they saay "real dudes spit on the st". I cant do that man. thats gross. "dudes take a piss at evry corner". not da dudes I know. "real dudes" dont wash there hands and sh#t like that" not true regina. I work & live w/bio dudes. they aint like that.
Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 08:38:43 AM
do any of the natal men you hang with know your history or do they only know you as a guy? Not trying to make some big point, I'm just curious? Thanks for the response, Chris (or any other guys who feel like answering)
ciao,
Gina M.
I got a lot friends. most are bio dudes. they know I dont got the same stuff down there. they know 'cause we have grown togethr when we were little kids. they dont care. I'm a dude like them. they treat me as a dude. no special treatment. we talk bout everythin. girls. work. sex. no difference. they never make me feel like a freak u dig? only time I feel like sh#t is when trans dudes say u aint real 'cause u gotta dress like dis. spit on da floor. cheat on ur girl. & sh#t like dat. they dont know. dunno where they get dis stuff but it aint so. bio dudes aint bad, u dig?
Quote from: Chris on August 29, 2007, 04:02:11 AM
I got a lot friends. most are bio dudes. they know I dont got the same stuff down there. they know 'cause we have grown togethr when we were little kids. they dont care. I'm a dude like them. they treat me as a dude. no special treatment. we talk bout everythin. girls. work. sex. no difference. they never make me feel like a freak u dig? only time I feel like sh#t is when trans dudes say u aint real 'cause u gotta dress like dis. spit on da floor. cheat on ur girl. & sh#t like dat. they dont know. dunno where they get dis stuff but it aint so. bio dudes aint bad, u dig?
Exactly bro...! Saying that you have to be a pig in order to be a guy, is just as screwed up as saying Transwomen have to be every bad stereotype of women, (catty, a dumb blonde, ignorant about science, cars, tools, etc, etc.)
There's Trans folks of both pursausions that may fall for that, but that's their loss. Identifying as male or female doesn't mean you have to take on every bad, messed up trait of that gender.
Scott
I don't get the sense that the bio guys talk about me at all when I'm not there. One guy, likely thinking I actually wanted tips on being a guy said a couple of things when I first knew him, like "don't use the word cute". I responded with, "ok, I'll use the word fabulous". He got the hint pretty fast and doesn't do that anymore. He only did it out of caring though, not to tell me who to be. He's smaller than me (about 5'3") and has probably had to compensate by being really macho to avoid being victimized when he was younger. Luckily at my age we don't have to worry about that stuff. I get the sense I'm accepted the way I am.
And maybe it's a guy thing, or maybe it's a me thing, but a couple of years isn't long enough to build a best bud relationship, especially when I have so many people who've been in my life for 30-40 years. I have good friends, friends who I'd call up if I needed a hand, or who'd call me if they needed a hand, but guy talk doesn't build that kind of intimacy that fast. Which is cool with me. I have many more years to live.
Dennis
I imagine everybody talks about their friends behind their back. When you're close to someone there's always things about them that get on your last nerve. You get especially irritated with a friend that day, you start ranting and dissing them to everyone who'll listen that knows them. And you're going to bring up everything - how fat they are, how greedy they are, every last annoying habit they have, etc
So of course if they're trans, that's going to be brought up. But probably no more important than anything else, except it's something to diss them for.
Thing is, if you care for somebody as a friend, you also 'hate' them. If nobody talks about you or rips into you behind your back, means they don't give a ->-bleeped-<- or you're not worthy of discussion.
So, I'd more concerned if I wasn't talked about. So if guys were to talk ->-bleeped-<- about my not having the emeralds or something, I wouldn't take it to heart. I know who I am, and they know too.
To the point here I do love to hang out with guys!
They are so fun to be with. I like their outlooks on life! Much different than mine , but fun to be around.
Deb
Quote from: Dennis on August 29, 2007, 08:40:06 AM
He's smaller than me (about 5'3") and has probably had to compensate by being really macho to avoid being victimized when he was younger. Luckily at my age we don't have to worry about that stuff. I get the sense I'm accepted the way I am.
That's good to hear--I'm still kinda worried about not quite fitting in with men because of my size... mostly 'cuz of stuff a friend said (that I'll never have the attributes that men value/respect--height, large shoulders, a sizable package).
As for my own friends... I have a several bio-guy buds, but none of them know I'm trans yet. They definitely know there's something very different about me, but they prolly just attribute that to me liking women; y'know, 'mannish lesbian' sorta thing. Hanging out with them, I feel mostly like 'one of the guys'; but there's always a sort of subtle acknowledgement from them that I'm not and can't fully be one of them. It's kinda like, no matter how I appear or act, they take a good look at my face or hear my voice, and the immediate label is 'oh, girl. cute.' Goddamn.
As far as what we do when we hang out... well, just hanging out is good. Chilling, talking about computers or music, watching movies with hot girls. Concerts, metal, moshing... sweet. Drinking of course (go college). I have a better alcohol tolerance than the majority of guys I drink with; funny how that garners respect, lol. We don't do 'deep conversations' on people or emotions. I like it like that. Definitely different from girls, but I only have one bio-female friend who tries to carry on talk-about-people-and-feelings with me to compare it to. Oh and my mom; she does that too. I try to pay attention so I don't seem like an ass, but... "uh-huh" soon becomes my favorite word. To be fair, I have met some girls who aren't very gossipy and I like that, but... it's always kinda awkward with them; like I'm expected to be one of them somehow, but I can't quite measure up or relate.
I don't really have gay male friends, just acquaintances; so we talk about the usual acquaintance-type stuff: how's school, what've you been up to, etc. The bio-guy I'm closest to (who knows about me) isn't especially masculine and tends to talk more, but he isn't... well, sorta gossipy like girls can be. He'll talk about stuff that's more emotional than machines (family stuff), but it's also a lot of philosophy and ideas (about the environment, buildings, stuff like that--we're both engineering students). That's a bit different than the interaction with guys I'm used to, but it's kinda nice to know that I'm allowed to have some emotion even if I don't really express it. We also do a lot of outdoors stuff together--hiking, camping, whitewater rafting; just doing stuff together and not really needing to talk is good too.
Quote from: Eryk on August 29, 2007, 02:11:18 PMHanging out with them, I feel mostly like 'one of the guys'; but there's always a sort of subtle acknowledgement from them that I'm not and can't fully be one of them. It's kinda like, no matter how I appear or act, they take a good look at my face or hear my voice, and the immediate label is 'oh, girl. cute.' Goddamn.
That's unfortunate. The only time I ever got that kind of thing was when a guy started coming around who I'd never hung with, but the others knew well. At first, they'd be kind of like 'what! she's runs with you on jobs?' and ->-bleeped-<-, but after they saw I could hold my own and contributed a lot, and wasn't just 'the female who tags along', that kinda thing stopped.
It's a natural reaction for a lot of guys at first, until they see you're down and know what the hell's up.
I don't have a ton of friends with whom I interact in everyday life, I admit. My best friend is, honestly, my wife, and we spend every waking moment together (yes, folks, that is possible). She is mtf, so spent 18 years of her life living as a guy, and we get along fine.
Other than that, I talk to quite a few fellow ftms online. It's nice to have people with whom I can identify. I also tend to get along quite well with mtfs.
Bio guys? You know, I really don't discriminate when it comes to my friends, at least as far as pertains to sex and gender. One of the people I talk to often online is a bisexual, bio male... we have plenty to talk about, as do he and my wife. Aria and I hang out often with a group of mostly men who hang out at the beach out here, and the only times we are at a loss for what to talk about tend to be when we don't know the topics. Conversation style is irrelevant. What makes more sense to me, and what I discriminate more on the basis of, is intelligence. If someone can have a good, coherent conversation with me, they're more likely to become my friend. Nothing drives me more insane than to talk to someone who says nothing but, "Hey, how's it going? Weather's been nice. God, that chick is hot. I'm hungry. What'd you eat yesterday?" If I wanted to shoot the breeze, I'd hang out in a McDonald's all day and take orders.
To me, it doesn't matter whether your friends are bio males, bio females, intersexed, homosexual, transsexual, purple, green... people are PEOPLE. There's a lot more to a person than what's in his/her/its pants.
Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 11:53:01 PM
I wish we would get back to the subject of FTMs and how they interact with natal-men.
ciao,
Gina M.
Don't be so impatient. Threads flow as they flow. Perhaps it's impertinent to find out about ftms' relationships with bio men... what would it prove, really? That we're not real men? Who does that benefit?
Dino
I praise your honesty Regina. :)
Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM
Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do.
That goes without saying. I will always be different from natal men in that respect. Even a guy who transitioned in childhood would still always be different from natal men. There are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for.
Posted on: August 30, 2007, 12:22:57 AM
Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PMQuote from: Nero on August 29, 2007, 12:16:59 PM
Thing is, if you care for somebody as a friend, you also 'hate' them. If nobody talks about you or rips into you behind your back, means they don't give a ->-bleeped-<- or you're not worthy of discussion.
So, I'd more concerned if I wasn't talked about. So if guys were to talk ->-bleeped-<- about my not having the emeralds or something, I wouldn't take it to heart. I know who I am, and they know too.
I think there's big difference between people I hate (which is very few when I think of the people I'm in contact with) and people I like but feel the desire to talk about them when they aren't there (and not in a mean way). What I was talking about is that a number of men here mentioned that natal men don't talk about them like transmen do and I responded by saying, "well, maybe, but you don't know how the natal-men speak when you're not around." I'm not saying everyone should be paranoid, just to not idealize their relationships.
I think how transmen relate to natal-men is a really interesting subject and one that I don't hear many transguys ever talk about. I'd like to hear more.
ciao,
Gina M.
*sigh* The English language is soooo limited. There are two kinds of hatred - real 'I'm not laughing' hatred and affectionate hatred.
Sorry to hijack your topic Regina but I've got to answer to Nero's post. Nero, sorry if I have misunderstood you. I only socialized with girls from early childhood. You mean I would still always be different from a natal female because there are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for? would you care to elaborate? thanks kindly.
Quote from: Butterfly on August 29, 2007, 11:30:37 PM
Sorry to hijack your topic Regina but I've got to answer to Nero's post. Nero, sorry if I have misunderstood you. I only socialized with girls from early childhood. You mean I would still always be different from a natal female because there are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for? would you care to elaborate? thanks kindly.
Just stuff like being born in the right body and the privilege of such. Always being seen as yourself, physical aspects some of which transpeople will never experience, not having to fight for your identity, and go through physical alterations, etc.
Also, while it may not be true of all transpeople, some of us (like me) tend to have stunted development, and not normal childhoods, etc.
Ex: Some of us get stunted at the onset of puberty and don't grow emotionally and mature as rapidly as our natal peers. This is due to a lot of things, such as fear of becoming an adult member of the opposite gender (boy turning into a woman and vice versa), and just not being able to thrive as your birth sex.
That's why I'm different than natal men anyway. I should've just said 'I' will always be different, as transpeople have different experiences and lives, and some may have grown up much the same as their natal peers.
Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM
No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you just want to be pissy, you can just ignore it.
Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do. And I'm not saying people HAVE to have certain kinds of friends, but I am asking a group of people who are transitioning towards a certain gender how they get along with people who are born into that gender... especially people from the non-queer spectrum of the larger population. Sorry you have a problem with that and you've evidently angry with me at something I posted on a thread of yours, but maybe you're just angry period.
ciao,
Gina M.
Whew! Who turned up the heat?
I didn't intend to cause upset, and I doubt such fierceness is truly warranted, but I digress. I merely expressed my opinion, as I always do. I apologize if my blatant honesty can come across as somewhat brash. But if I can't be honest, who can?
I have no intent to get into an altercation. Just giving my input, as a technical FtM. Sorry I don't fit into a cubicle.
Dino
Quote from: Nero on August 29, 2007, 11:44:38 PM
That's why I'm different than natal men anyway. I should've just said 'I' will always be different, as transpeople have different experiences and lives, and some may have grown up much the same as their natal peers.
thats cool to say. it aint da same for everybody bro. "I" dont see me different than any bio dude. I dont got da parts. so? it dont make no difference. nobody's complain bout dat yet ;) I got everything else. health. life. love. family. job. friends. I'm livin as "me chris". got top sergery done. no complaints from me. I'm thankful to God & my family. bio dudes say they dont see me different & I dont see'em differeent. & women say I'm better in everythin. dunno. its there opinion. :laugh:
Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM
Quote from: DeanO on August 29, 2007, 08:28:45 PM
I don't have a ton of friends with whom I interact in everyday life, I admit. My best friend is, honestly, my wife, and we spend every waking moment together (yes, folks, that is possible). She is mtf, so spent 18 years of her life living as a guy, and we get along fine.
Other than that, I talk to quite a few fellow ftms online. It's nice to have people with whom I can identify. I also tend to get along quite well with mtfs.
Bio guys? You know, I really don't discriminate when it comes to my friends, at least as far as pertains to sex and gender. One of the people I talk to often online is a bisexual, bio male... we have plenty to talk about, as do he and my wife. Aria and I hang out often with a group of mostly men who hang out at the beach out here, and the only times we are at a loss for what to talk about tend to be when we don't know the topics. Conversation style is irrelevant. What makes more sense to me, and what I discriminate more on the basis of, is intelligence. If someone can have a good, coherent conversation with me, they're more likely to become my friend. Nothing drives me more insane than to talk to someone who says nothing but, "Hey, how's it going? Weather's been nice. God, that chick is hot. I'm hungry. What'd you eat yesterday?" If I wanted to shoot the breeze, I'd hang out in a McDonald's all day and take orders.
To me, it doesn't matter whether your friends are bio males, bio females, intersexed, homosexual, transsexual, purple, green... people are PEOPLE. There's a lot more to a person than what's in his/her/its pants.
Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 11:53:01 PM
I wish we would get back to the subject of FTMs and how they interact with natal-men.
ciao,
Gina M.
Don't be so impatient. Threads flow as they flow. Perhaps it's impertinent to find out about ftms' relationships with bio men... what would it prove, really? That we're not real men? Who does that benefit?
Dino
No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you just want to be pissy, you can just ignore it.
Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do. And I'm not saying people HAVE to have certain kinds of friends, but I am asking a group of people who are transitioning towards a certain gender how they get along with people who are born into that gender... especially people from the non-queer spectrum of the larger population. Sorry you have a problem with that and you've evidently angry with me at something I posted on a thread of yours, but maybe you're just angry period.
Gina M.
Posted on: August 29, 2007, 10:31:44 PM
Whoa....! Regina, I appreciate the thread you brought up, and it's an interesting one - but NO one is being forced to read it or to post. We're
trying to answer and discuss a pretty wide open question though; one that's nebulous enough not to have clear cut, or black/white answers...
You've gotten a lot of different responses from different Transmen here, and we're trying - but it doesn't seem to be satisfying you - you keep asking for more. Dino just gave some honest, non-offensive response from his own perspective, and you told him to get back to the thread.
???
Please don't be calling people pissy or telling them to ignore the thread of they don't like it - that's not going to engender a more open response from folks.
That's not how I read his response at all - there was no anger, no pissyness; just his own perspective. Please try not to take offense where surely none was meant; that won't help anyone want to offer an answer to your questions at all.
:(
In all due respect,
Scott
QuoteOne guy, likely thinking I actually wanted tips on being a guy said a couple of things when I first knew him, like "don't use the word cute". I responded with, "ok, I'll use the word fabulous". He got the hint pretty fast and doesn't do that anymore.
That's the one thing I really hate about bio guys who know I'm trans! Currently, only a few guys on campus know. There's one guy who's ALWAYS getting on me about not acting manly enough. I don't scold him for it because I know he's doing it because he cares a lot about me. But that's one sure way to piss a transguy off. Imagine if you did that to a bio guy! Hell, if you thought a guy was trans (but he wasn't), you'd probably look at him and think of a million ways he's not being "macho" enough.
QuoteTo be real, bioguys constantly get reminders about their masculinity. And it's not only jocks or rednecks who do it. When you're in the work work, there is constant feedback about you as a man in many subtle ways, both in terms of performance, in a physical sense, your taste or style, people wanting to hang out with you, being one of the 'guys' (or an outcast), whatever. Your parents will tell you how to behave as a boy and then a man from the time you're an infant. People will make wincing faces if you do something that isn't viewed as male. Women often goad their men about their masculinity (at the same time they say they want a sensitive man).
Yes, but it's not as overt. Of course, every guy gets ribbed about his masculinity, but it's more of a joke -- i.e. you have a small penis, you're gay, you can't perform, you like to wear pink and dance around like a ballerina, etc. No one questions your actual gender, at least not seriously. With transguys, every comment about your masculinity is like
are you sure you're really meant to be a guy?Funny story. I know a transguy, "Ed," who works in construction. No one at his workplace knows that he's trans. They're constantly ribbing the other guys about their penis size, of course. They'll be measuring a board and they'll say, "Eight inches? I know how we can measure it! Take Ed's and divide it by four!" To which he inwardly thinks:
I wish!
Just a little bit to add... have never had many friends, period. BUT I especially like hanging out with men now that i'm presenting as male. I don't know how to explain it, it just feels different and real. A couple of weeks ago i was at a ball game and I felt just like one of the guys. It was great.
Quote from: regina on August 30, 2007, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: Andrew on August 30, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
QuoteTo be real, bioguys constantly get reminders about their masculinity. And it's not only jocks or rednecks who do it. When you're in the work work, there is constant feedback about you as a man in many subtle ways, both in terms of performance, in a physical sense, your taste or style, people wanting to hang out with you, being one of the 'guys' (or an outcast), whatever. Your parents will tell you how to behave as a boy and then a man from the time you're an infant. People will make wincing faces if you do something that isn't viewed as male. Women often goad their men about their masculinity (at the same time they say they want a sensitive man).
Yes, but it's not as overt. Of course, every guy gets ribbed about his masculinity, but it's more of a joke -- i.e. you have a small penis, you're gay, you can't perform, you like to wear pink and dance around like a ballerina, etc. No one questions your actual gender, at least not seriously. With transguys, every comment about your masculinity is like are you sure you're really meant to be a guy?
Funny story. I know a transguy, "Ed," who works in construction. No one at his workplace knows that he's trans. They're constantly ribbing the other guys about their penis size, of course. They'll be measuring a board and they'll say, "Eight inches? I know how we can measure it! Take Ed's and divide it by four!" To which he inwardly thinks: I wish!
All I can say is that, when you're growing up, none of those jokes feel like jokes, they feel like put downs and it feels like you're being put in a pecking order or being bullied. Maybe when you get older you get a little more perspective about why people say those remarks to you if you allow yourself to think about it.
ciao,
Gina M.
Yes, I understand. That's part of why I say that we will always be different in some respects than natal members of our target sex.
Girls have a pecking order and do bully and malign girls who aren't feminine enough or pretty. Which is a fact that the trans community as whole tends to downplay.
Quote from: Nero on August 30, 2007, 08:48:57 PM
Yes, I understand. That's part of why I say that we will always be different in some respects than natal members of our target sex.
Girls have a pecking order and do bully and malign girls who aren't feminine enough or pretty. Which is a fact that the trans community as whole tends to downplay.
From what I've seen, transwomen do it as badly as teenage girls (in some cases). My girlfriend has looked over my shoulder at some threads where I've been debating mod action and said "god, it's like being in high school again, only thank god it's not me."
Which might actually be why a lot of us FtM guys prefer hanging out with bio guys. They've done their puberty. I haven't hung with many FtM's, but perhaps that's the guy version of going through those teenage heirarchies. More manly than thou. Ain't got time for that at my age.
Dennis
QuoteAll I can say is that, when you're growing up, none of those jokes feel like jokes, they feel like put downs and it feels like you're being put in a pecking order or being bullied. Maybe when you get older you get a little more perspective about why people say those remarks to you if you allow yourself to think about it.
ciao,
Gina M.
I agree that some people mean these things in a malicious way. But most of it is harmless. At first, I was on the defensive when I heard things like that. Then I began to realize that it's just another way that guys communicate. We're testing each other's boundaries and all that. And a lot of it is just plain joking around. It probably felt like more than teasing when you were growing up, either because it was really malicious (kids can be cruel) or because as a transperson you didn't feel like you belonged. I know that I could never handle girls teasing me when I was little -- it was awful! But now that I'm on the other side, I have a lot more perspective.
I've drifted a lot from many of the straight male friends I had in high school, but I've made a tonne of gay male friends since starting uni. I definitely feel much more comfortable around men than women and crave that male-male bond. But I find it's much easier to find this with gay men. My best friend in the entire world is a gay man I went to high school with. He has been very supportive of my transition and we have such a close bond people often describe us as a married couple. :P
Quote from: Ron on September 09, 2007, 03:39:38 AM
I've drifted a lot from many of the straight male friends I had in high school, but I've made a tonne of gay male friends since starting uni. I definitely feel much more comfortable around men than women and crave that male-male bond. But I find it's much easier to find this with gay men. My best friend in the entire world is a gay man I went to high school with. He has been very supportive of my transition and we have such a close bond people often describe us as a married couple. :P
So guys, I'm curious... there seem to be a lot of FTMs here who prefer the company of gay men. Is this because they're cooler/less jerks (?) than straight men, because they're more understanding (more queer) of what you've gone through, because when you might have been identifying as a dyke (some of you) those are the male friends you hung out with and just kept them in your life or because you're now identifying as gay men as well? Just wondering.
ciao,
Gina M.
Quote from: regina on September 09, 2007, 11:25:33 AM
So guys, I'm curious... there seem to be a lot of FTMs here who prefer the company of gay men. Is this because they're cooler/less jerks (?) than straight men, because they're more understanding (more queer) of what you've gone through, because when you might have been identifying as a dyke (some of you) those are the male friends you hung out with and just kept them in your life or because you're now identifying as gay men as well? Just wondering.
ciao,
Gina M.
For me it's a little bit of all of them. I've chosen to stay with the queer community rather than leave it since starting my transition, and as such have a lot of gay male friends from the queer department at uni. They are (mostly) very understanding of my situation, often are interested and want to know things about it, and are just really decent guys who wouldn't dare say anything negative about it. Straight guys on the other hand, I find are a little harder to make friends with. The ones I had from school I've mostly kept up with, but I had a couple of weird reactions from them, and I haven't dared come out to any other straight guys I meet. When I was out as a lesbian I made friends with the guy I consider myself married to now. We both come out to each other on the same night and I think that's where the bond started. I then later came out as trans and he was really, really good about it so it's been really easy to hold onto that friendship. As for the 'are you identifying as a gay man now' question, I'm going through a process of re-questioning my sexuality. I have a feeling it's more about wanting to look and be like them than actually be
with them, but who knows. For now I loosely identify as a heterosexual man with a lot of gay friends. :P