Planet Fitness drops member after gender identity complaint
Source: http://www.kctv5.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
Author: Gino Vicci
Posted: 6 March 2015
Warnings: Heavy misgendering
"Cormier said she understands that some men self-identify as women and some women self-identify as men, but said the person looked like a man and that caught her off guard. Cormier lost her membership for violating the company's no judgement zone policy."
That needs a "Heavy misgendering ahead" warning on it if you ask me.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 06, 2015, 05:45:44 PM
That needs a "Heavy misgendering ahead" warning on it if you ask me.
Updated! Thank you ma'am :)
Really cute how the second gym stepped in and "rescued" the poor dear after she was exposed to a member of the transgender community. ::)
QuoteWhich hopefully will avoid a similar situation moving forward.
Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint#ixzz3TelaH7YU
I despise the use of the phrase, "moving forward." Especially in a news broadcast.
::)
Planet Fitness drops member after gender identity complaint
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/story/28278233/planet-fitness-drops-member-after-gender-identity-complaint
By Gino Vicci
March 6th, 2015
MIDLAND, MI (WNEM) - It's a business that sells itself on being non-judgmental but Planet Fitness has allegedly revoked the membership of a woman for complaining.
Yvette Cormier, a member at the Midland location, says she had no idea what that meant until a few days ago.
"I was stunned and shocked. He looked like a man.. He did not look like a woman," Cormier said. Cormier is talking about a transgender woman who walked into the woman's locker room while she was getting undressed. She says she couldn't believe her eyes.
-----------------------------
Been wondering about going to Planet Fitness these days and drop Lucille Roberts since the latter is a women's gym.
Merged duplicate topics on different boards.
There appears to be multiple sources for the story, which are somewhat different. What isn't clear from the title, and magnified by a TW, is that Planet Fitness dropped a cis woman for complaining that a transgender woman used the women's locker room. Misgendering in the article was done by the complaining party who was dropped, the business itself was 100% supportive.
Bravo Planet Fitness.
Just heard about this story this morning, high fives to Planet Fitness!
Highly biased reporting against transfolk.
Would have been nice if it were pointed out that the lady didn't object to a trans woman in the locker room, she objected to someone who looked like a man. She wouldn't have had a problem with a passable trans woman, in fact wouldn't even have known.
But, yes, I know. Way, way too much to expect of the media.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 08, 2015, 04:45:56 PM
Highly biased reporting against transfolk.
Would have been nice if it were pointed out that the lady didn't object to a trans woman in the locker room, she objected to someone who looked like a man. She wouldn't have had a problem with a passable trans woman, in fact wouldn't even have known.
But, yes, I know. Way, way too much to expect of the media.
I agree about the bad reporting, but I'm betting if this woman knew there was a transgender person in the facility at all, we'd still be hearing complaints about Planet Fitness needing to protect her.
Hugs, Devlyn
You ever get that feeling,
That one deep in your stomach.
I have that with this one.
Sounds to far fetched and questionable truths. Is there a lawsuit motivation or was there really a male pervert in there. One not transgender and a real pervert.
I could be wrong but we seen it before when bathroom bills where in national news. This one is spreading like Jenners half truth story.
Donno hard shaking that feeling.
the reporting I read that was objectionable were only quotes from the woman who reported the person to the health club. The title of this makes it seem like the health club is at fault, but in fact they stood up for the trans woman and kept to their principles of non-discrimination and inclusion. Can we at least agree that it wasn't a case of discrimination against us, but justifiable expulsion of a bigot?
I think that's why it's a story. We all know the gym stood up for the transgender person. The tv reporter did a lead-in that said "a man who identifies as a transgender woman". That and the complainants misgendering seem to be what we're objecting to.
Hugs, Devlyn
Hello ladies! I'm FTM, so I probably don't belong here, but I would like to ask all of you a question.
As many of you know, a woman lost her gym membership after she complained to management about a man entering the women's locker room. Many sources state that this person was just a man: bearded, masculine, etc. claiming he is a trans woman just to play Peeping Tom. The woman lost her membership simply because she was shocked and uncomfortable with the situation.
I personally disagree with PF's logic, of letting anyone use any restroom and locker room in their facilities. They say that even if a regular man claims he is a woman, he can use the women's locker room, showers, etc. in front of other women. Facebook is applauding them...saying how there is no such thing as the gender binary system, everyone should do everything together, and hooray for Planet Fitness... honestly, I cannot disagree more. This is a violation of privacy.
I asked my trans girl friends whether they would ever enter a women's locker room pre-hormones, pre-surgery...they said never, unless they were fully confident that they passed, and went with a nice group of girls to feel personal safety. I agree; I don't think any trans woman would put herself into a dangerous situation like this, knowing that she does not pass. Neither would trans men. I feared public locker rooms and restrooms until 1.5-2 years on testosterone, where I was certain no one would bat an eye.
What do you girls say? Locker rooms are based on sex, not gender. That is why we trans folk take hormones...to change our secondary sexual characteristics (and SRS for our primary). Women naturally feel comfortable with other women, since they have the same body. After transition, our sex matches our gender. As a trans man, I would never pull my underwear down in a locker room (even though I pass everywhere else) knowing that people would freak out, feel uncomfortable, and other stuff.
I hope I don't sound too critical, but I thought about both sides in this situation. I think if I, 3 years ago, would enter the men's locker room as a female, the gym would have full rights to either warn me or revoke my membership. It is an invasion of privacy for the other men.
Quote from: BigGuy on March 08, 2015, 08:20:43 PM
Hello ladies! I'm FTM, so I probably don't belong here, but I would like to ask all of you a question.
As many of you know, a woman lost her gym membership after she complained to management about a man entering the women's locker room. Many sources state that this person was just a man: bearded, masculine, etc. claiming he is a trans woman just to play Peeping Tom. The woman lost her membership simply because she was shocked and uncomfortable with the situation.
If this is indeed true then it will be really really bad for us.
However, I would like to see a picture of the person in question before I pass judgement.
Hi BigGuy, welcome to Susan's Place! I haven't heard that it was someone posing as a transgender person to gain access, do you have a link?
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 08, 2015, 08:27:29 PM
If this is indeed true then it will be really really bad for us.
However, I would like to see a picture of the person in question before I pass judgement.
Not sure how that would be bad for us? "Man enters ladies room, transgender community to blame" doesn't make a very believable story.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 08, 2015, 08:29:33 PM
Hi BigGuy, welcome to Susan's Place! I haven't heard that it was someone posing as a transgender person to gain access, do you have a link?
Hugs, Devlyn
I hope i'm not breaking any board policy about external links (?). I found a link - apparently shes a trans woman according to this article that said she just went inside the ladies locker room to hang up her purse and coat:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/transgender-woman-planet-fitness-locker-room-article-1.2142084
I've read that transgender woman in question came forward and she assumes it was her this lady was complaining about. She lives as a woman. If the other woman was complaining about someone faking being trans, I'd like to know the truth.
But Planet Fitness has said this woman lost her membership not because she complained once, but because she came back every day to complain and tell anyone who would listen about the "man" in the women's locker room. She was creating a disturbance.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 08, 2015, 08:33:22 PM
Not sure how that would be bad for us? "Man enters ladies room, transgender community to blame" doesn't make a very believable story.
Hugs, Devlyn
It would encourage other establishments (or even pf itself) to possibly cave and enact restrictive, rigid gender separation policies.
It reminds me of those folks who openly carried AR15s to Starbucks. Yes, I get that it is legal in many states and it should be your right, and starbucks said it abides by local laws. However it was honestly truly scaring people, and starbucks as a private business decided to make a blanket statement to "please do not bring any firearms to our stores" which would also include concealed weapons which were previously OK and because they were concealed really bothered no one.
Quote from: ChiGirl on March 08, 2015, 08:37:33 PM
I've read that transgender woman in question came forward and she assumes it was her this lady was complaining about. She lives as a woman. If the other woman was complaining about someone faking being trans, I'd like to know the truth.
But Planet Fitness has said this woman lost her membership not because she complained once, but because she came back every day to complain and tell anyone who would listen about the "man" in the women's locker room. She was creating a disturbance.
Oh wow! Why, already knowing this is a trans woman, would someone make a disturbance out of it? If she isn't intentionally harming anyone and just wants to hang up her stuff in the locker room...let her be. Especially if you see her all the time at the gym and know she is living her life as any other woman. She is already having a hard enough time! I don't understand people. The other woman claimed that she supports transgender people too...what lies. You never know what to believe in the media, though. We can't get the full true story :(
The comments on our local news stations FB post about this has some very very negative comments as usual and most are really hard to read. Thankfully there are a bunch of supporters and people who are defending the fitness place for doing what they did.
I looked the topic for now.
we are not ways judge, jury and execution with half facts.
Speculations are fine but drawing conclusions and blaming not so much.
No one was there so it's all hear say.
Relax and think before posting please. I also merged with other same topics
Thank you.
If you have any comments use the report to moderator.
Quote from: Just Shelly on March 08, 2015, 10:18:10 PM
I think this trans woman gives trans a bad name. I am sorry but if you do not pass fairly well you do not belong in a changing room or maybe even a bathroom. In my in-between stage I would avoid bathrooms at all cost and I definitely would not go to a communal changing room....and I was being referred to as female quite regularly.
I kind of disagree with this because some people will never pass and some will always seem "obvious" even though they are beautiful.
Take Laverne Cox for example. She is very beautiful but even without knowing her history you can probably tell she is trans. Her voice and her face (a little bit) clocks her. That said, she is still stunning and I would kill to be that beautiful, but unfortunately T damage has taken its toll.
Not everyone can afford FFS and I don't plan on it for now.
Besides there is really no objective standard for what constitutes feminine looking and what constitutes masculine looking.
I would say that even if someone makes a sincere try they should not be hassled.
There is also RLE which is an important step for many trans women.
And yes I used to avoid the bathrooms but not anymore. I do avoid the locker rooms at the gym at work. I can't use the men's due to boobs and I won't use the women's because I feel I don't pass. So what's a girl to do?
The comments from our community demonizing the trans woman for not being female enough, not passing well enough, or being an antagonist who uses the letter of the law to do something that causes such a controversy that stronger laws are passed fly in the face of our 'big umbrella' approach.
Look at it this way, if you are transitioning, how do you make it from (in this case MtF) being a man to being a woman? Do you hide in your basement until you 'pass well enough'? Of course we all went through phases where we looked more male than female on our way, but we need protections that keep us from being arrested as perverts and fetishists while we are in transition. If we have those protections, who is to say someone who is a TV isn't also protected? How about non-ops, do they never get to use a women's restroom? Think about it!
Many of us grew up with the stigma that we were mentally ill or perverts who had no right (or rights) to be alive. For me, being a transsexual (post op) it was hard to grasp that someone would want to go part way and stop. Over the past months being on this board I have realized the error of my thinking and realize now that we are all on our own journey. Sometimes we start out to go all the way but end up stuck, sometimes we find ourselves in a better place than we imagined and we stay. Sometimes we wander back and forth trying to find that place where we are happiest. Sometimes we make it all the way to our dreams. No matter what our destination, we deserve to be allowed to become who we are, and protected from those who would end us just for being different. If others who don't identify as binary get protected as well, then who are we to judge?
All who wander are not lost
It really disturbs me to see some trans* people in this thread criticizing others for using facilities (both bathrooms and locker rooms) when they do not pass.
Consider this:
Passing has a lot to do with luck. Some people will never pass, no matter what.
Peeing, on the other hand, is universal. Everyone has to do it, no matter whether they pass or not.
I do encourage people to use caution in public restrooms when not passing. That is not because there is anything wrong with them. It's because other people in the public are ignorant, they fear what they don't understand, and they are too prone to violence.
I have personally escorted non-passable trans* people into the ladies room and it was scary even for me. But yet they still had to pee and the ladies was the least unsafe room to do it in.
I personally ended up using the ladies room for the first time in my transition when I was at a Denny's and had a sudden, urgent need to go immediately. I realized I couldn't make it out the door and to home, so I ducked into the ladies.
The way public restrooms are generally arranged is not ideal for many people. But folks gotta do the best they can with the situation as it exists, you know?
Transgender woman defends using the women's locker room at Planet Fitness after a fellow gym-goer was thrown out for complaining about 'man' in the ladies room
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html)
By Kelly Mclaughlin For Dailymail.com
Published: 17:34 EST, 8 March 2015
A transgender woman who believes she was unexpectedly the focus of a Planet Fitness policy controversy said that she has only used the gym's female locker room on two occasions.
Carlotta Sklodowska came forward today after Michigan mom Yvette Cormier made headlines for having her gym membership instantly revoked when she complained about a transgender woman using the female locker room.
Sklodowska now claims that she believes she is the transgender woman Cormier saw and that she had only used the changing area on two separate visits to hang her purse and coat and to pick up her items after working out.
=========
And now.... in colour....
Edited to fit news formatting guidelines
Quote from: mgbdyy on March 09, 2015, 10:50:45 AM
And now.... in colour....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html
Thanks.
I suspected this all along. A trans woman who doesn't pass but has obvious boobs (not a requirement to be trans) and dresses feminine. PF was 100% correct on this one.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 09, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
Besides there is really no objective standard for what constitutes feminine looking and what constitutes masculine looking.
You are so right.
And that's really the very heart of the matter. Planet Fitness and anyone else who maintains single-sex changing rooms is in something of a bind. If they don't allow us into women's changing rooms, they are running afoul of anti-discrimination law, but if they do, they need to let ALL of us in, even those whose features are still or perpetually male. You simply can't say, like one of the earlier posts, that if you look too much like a man, don't go in. There is no dividing line.
I think this is one of those things, perhaps like gay marriage, where people are just going to have to accept that people with a masculine appearance are going to use female changing spaces, and everyone is going to have to get used to it.
One small pedantic point. The photograph shown is NOT a locker room where women run around in various states of undress. It looks like where you wash your hands and is no more private than the street outside. Women are fully dressed in this area
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/08/266E14C800000578-0-image-a-45_1425789777375.jpg
This is a locker room
http://www.bonartstudio.com/adm/menu_pictures/gl399Girls_Locker_Room.jpg
Quote from: mgbdyy on March 09, 2015, 10:50:45 AM
Transgender woman defends using the women's locker room at Planet Fitness after a fellow gym-goer was thrown out for complaining about 'man' in the ladies room
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html)
By Kelly Mclaughlin For Dailymail.com
Published: 17:34 EST, 8 March 2015
A transgender woman who believes she was unexpectedly the focus of a Planet Fitness policy controversy said that she has only used the gym's female locker room on two occasions.
Carlotta Sklodowska came forward today after Michigan mom Yvette Cormier made headlines for having her gym membership instantly revoked when she complained about a transgender woman using the female locker room.
Sklodowska now claims that she believes she is the transgender woman Cormier saw and that she had only used the changing area on two separate visits to hang her purse and coat and to pick up her items after working out.
=========
And now.... in colour....
Edited to fit news formatting guidelines
This is a much more balanced report. Thanks for posting it.
Gym Stands Up For Trans Woman, Kicks Out Member Who Wouldn't Stop Complaining
By Zack Ford, Mar. 9, 2015
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/09/3631333/a-transgender-woman-went-to-the-gym-and-nothing-happened/ (http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/09/3631333/a-transgender-woman-went-to-the-gym-and-nothing-happened/)
Carlotta Sklodowska went to the Midland, Michigan Planet Fitness twice. She wore leggings and a baggy t-shirt to work out in, which she admits don't hide her masculine body structure very well. Her only use for the locker room was to hang up her coat and purse while she exercised. As far as Sklodowska knows, she is the only transgender woman in her community, and that's why she assumes she is the individual who sparked another gym-user's outrage in recent weeks.
===================
Includes official statement by Planet Fitness
I will say that in my opinion that this is one of those pieces that is highly taken out of context. This is a perfect example of the old game where one person says something and it gets repeated down the line. It is hard to truly know what happened outside of those who were there, this is mostly aimed at the media. I am a 6' tall MtF and I am in no way a cute 150 pounds. I am in the beginning stages of the transition and this means I am most likely not passable by many eyes. the media has allowed people to speak and give there view point on a subject that none of them have true knowledge on. In the report on the video the one lady makes the comment on the transgender person being strong and it brings a risk issue. In all my understandings when HRT comes into place the muscle/strength begins to lessen, this meaning that the ability to over take is not truly a real factor. As mentioned by Bigman, if Buck Angel was to be required to use the women's locker room, I could guarantee that they would scream a guy is in here, and in my opinion he is much more masculine than the majority of us in the early stages of transition.
I will actually say that after finding out about this with Planet Fitness, I have seriously thought of getting a membership there as one of my big worries as I transition was how can I find a gym I can go to and begin getting healthier where I am afraid of what others will see or say. I truly feel that the media once again has made this something it should not be.
I will also say that it is more of a risk for a transwoman to enter a male locker room.
Yes, I read an expanded version of the story and apparently the person did NOT get kicked out for complaining, but she went to the point of going around to all the women she could find warning them of this transwoman who was in the locker room. So what she was kicked out for was basically making a trans person feel unwelcome.
The PF in question has lockable individual stalls and individual private showers. The woman apparently came and picked up her coat and purse, and that's pretty much it. There was absolutely no issue with this at all, and there were no other complaints about the trans woman.
I disagree with one of the fellow trans guy writing here. But I find the policy wording a little odd. Perhaps they need a trans group to help them with it? But no, the woman was a trans woman, not a peeping tom or something, but she's she's not very passing. I have seen this in comments section, and it is the same person posting with various aliases but she always posts the same thing. I also believe that trans guys are usually (and there are exceptions to this one) in no danger at all in public restrooms and so forth, even if they are not extremely masculine looking. Men rarely look at other guys in the restroom. Almost all these policies are discriminatory (not PF) basically to trans women because this is more of a sexist thing. In fact, usually people don't think we exist.
Still there are non-trans people that this policy is good for. For instance, butch lesbians.
In my experience there are very many masculine women in the world, and I have mistaken some of them with trans guys (not aloud just in my head).
I'd love to do one of those photo shoots of a muscly trans guy going into the woman's bathroom. Sadly I am not one of those muscly trans guys. :)
--Jay
I was going to mention butch cis women (not all of whom are lesbians, even). I've never been challenged in a bathroom or locker room... but I have several friends who have been, and all are cis and masculine-looking. Heck, one of my college friends grew her hair long b/c she was tired of being yelled at in bathrooms. The assumption that banning anybody who "looks like a man" will keep out trans women is incorrect in addition to being bigoted; what will happen instead is that anyone who doesn't meet the arbitrary standard, *including* people who are not trans, will be rejected, while unremarkable trans women will still be welcomed.
Heck, the woman in the article assumes she's the person in question because she doesn't know of any other trans female members of the gym, but what if she's NOT?! What if the complainer was objecting to a cis woman? I totally agree that regardless of the validity of her complaint - and I think she has zero grounds, to be clear - she was apparently creating far more of a disruption than the woman she was so upset about. Even if PF merely had a "don't upset the other members" policy, she'd be in violation. (That said, I think their actual policy is fantastic and their actions here have 100% backed up their statement of unqualified acceptance.)
Last month I went to a hockey game and shared a bathroom with someone who looked like a clean-shaven stockily built man, and statistically it was probably a cis woman (since there are butch trans women but they're quite rare compared to the overall cis female population). I didn't have a problem with it, and neither did anybody else, and we all got to pee in peace. :)
@Jenna Marie, you make a good point. It's "conventional femininity" that they are worried about. Many women don't fit this. I have friends who are trans men now, but actually had a LOT of trouble in restrooms when they were using women's restrooms because they were, at the time, butch lesbians. A couple of the laws have sort of bounty system, which seems to ask for people to police restrooms. I can't think of a more unsafe situation for a lot of people, not just trans people.
It seems like the woman at PF was probably the trans woman who identified herself, at least it seems likely, but it *could* have been a cis woman.
I think PF has the right policy, though I agree it is somewhat weirdly written.
--Jay
The woman is now suing PF for $25,000 because of the companies refusal to discriminate against this trans woman. This country is so F'd up.
I imagine she had to sign a contract acknowledging the conditions of membership and her lawsuit will get thrown out when the contract is presented as evidence in court.
As I said early in this media blitz it was about $$$.
Nothing more or less.
The Trans* client did noting predator.
Sad part she will be paid I bet out of court settlement.
Will she will plede religious rights.
Again ty Supreme Court.
If it was me in charge, I would settle some things, but not this. I will not settle for discrimination. I would take a stand on it. That's me though.
If it is needed PF would rather give this lady a settlement check than to run through the courts. I hate the idea of a settlement over something like this, though I would much rather see a settlement than to run/drag the Transwoman through any possible court litigation.
I honestly feel that if the lady who lost her membership is that irate over it go and join a fitness center like Golds as they do have a bit more strict policy from the last time I had seen.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 06, 2015, 06:52:20 PM
I despise the use of the phrase, "moving forward." Especially in a news broadcast.
::)
I'm tired of the phrase "in this economy", that's used in so many news broadcasts, as it tends to perpetuate negative thinking and depression.
Quote from: michelle82 on March 26, 2015, 08:05:30 AM
The woman is now suing PF for $25,000 because of the companies refusal to discriminate against this trans woman. This country is so F'd up.
You can sue anyone for anything. Does not mean you'll win. Her suit will most likely be tossed out.
Without really knowing what happened all I can say is there is one thing missing in all of this. Common sense.
If you don't pass well I get that but if you don't pass well have hairy legs and a beard that's not even trying you should then use the mens bathroom. Of course it can be blurred for some that's where it gets tough but if the transgender person isn't trying to make a fuss in any way why should another as long as common decency and respect is followed. Yes I am pre everything really but I can see myself in that situation and if I didn't pass well then I wouldn't be really going out in public trying to pass well if that makes sense. Common decency from the other side of the person is at least semi passable it would be nice to assume that you could see the person is trying therefor don't make an issue. The whole big debate really is the peeping tom pervert problem and really if you put your selves in the position of the women and you look like a bearded lady for gods sake use the mens bathroom. But if you look clean shaven and at least perhaps wig/hair do that is feminine then that woman might look at you twice but most likely not omg there is a pervert in my midst.
In short how I feel is if you go to a public bathroom we the transgender have to think how others will react and choose with some common sense as to which bathroom. I would bet since we tend to be scared ourselves we would be choosing the most appropriate bathroom. We have to protect woman from perverts too not saying transgender are but the ones that pretend to be transgender will not likely have some things that show they are trying to pass all that well. One queue might be lack of pierced ears.
Just my opinion but we have to look on the other side too sadly we are the anomaly so we have to think of what position in best for everyone not just ourselves but of course it can get grey hence why we have to think which would be best.
As to the story itself it sounds to messed up to get the real story to make any real judgement either way so not judging what had transpired in the story itself.
The ideal "peeping Tom" would be a person who passes as their target gender.
Answer to this problem? Shower and change at home.
I do try to look passable, but even so I would not use either facility (m or f), because I still have the dangly stuff (no for lady's room), and I have some pretty good lookin' hooters (no for men's room).
Yes, its an inconvenience to me, but like Jen said, we do have to be somewhat sensitive to how others see us.
Jen, when you say trying, I assume you mean trying to be one binary gender or the other? That's a step backwards for someone like me. I can't say I like the idea of having to try hard enough (at being someone I'm not) to make someone else satisfied with me so that I can use a bathroom.
Hugs, Devlyn
I don't think one has to pass to use the proper restroom. One should present as the proper gender but passing should not be a requirement. A lot of trans women and trans men simply do not pass. Should they use the men's room to be attacked?
Sensitive to how others see us? Some will never see us as our identified gender. Some view Laverne cox or even pretty trans women like princess joules as men. Why should I have to be sensitive to those people? If anything they need to be sensitive to me.
They key should always be intent. If someone intends to be a peeping Tom they should be ejected and possibly arrested. If someone just wants to pee there is no harm in letting them use the facility they identify with.
And for what it's worth I use the ladies. Period end of story.
Quote from: ImagineKate on April 01, 2015, 06:51:05 PM
I don't think one has to pass to use the proper restroom. One should present as the proper gender but passing should not be a requirement. A lot of trans women and trans men simply do not pass. Should they use the men's room to be attacked?
They key should always be intent. If someone intends to be a peeping Tom they should be ejected and possibly arrested. If someone just wants to pee there is no harm in letting them use the facility they identify with.
And for what it's worth I use the ladies. Period end of story.
This is the thing- we can't have a separate law for those who "pass" and for those who don't so well. The same laws must apply to everyone.
How about this novel proposal: We simply prosecute anyone who perpetrates an actual crime in a restroom. Oh, wait...
Quote from: Jill F on April 01, 2015, 07:06:02 PM
This is the thing- we can't have a separate law for those who "pass" and for those who don't so well. The same laws must apply to everyone.
How about this novel proposal: We simply prosecute anyone who perpetrates an actual crime in a restroom. Oh, wait...
I'm cool with that as well but I don't think I would be comfortable in a ladies room full of men. It's more than just crime. It's comfort and yes social norms.
To answer you Devlyn in a way yes that Is what I was saying but more on the extreme in the sense that if you are dressed feminine you shouldn't have a beard if that makes sense. In a way we must choose a binary option since that is the choice presented isn't it boy bathroom or girl bathroom. If there was a universal option then no problem right. if you are more androgyness in presenting then that's different in the sense you are not an obvious say male in a dress peeping into the ladies room. I don't mean to judge but from the womens perspective if the person looks really male that screams pervert/peepeing tom and in a sense keeping those type out of the bathroom also protects transgender woman. However as others have stated if the person is there just to really use the bathroom as it is intended then they should choose one that is reasonably appropriate for privacy reasons for the whole.
Really what I am saying is it boils down to if you look that one way or the other then choose appropriate washroom. If you are more neutral in appearance then use discretion. By doing that not only do we make bathrooms safer for CIS women but also transgender women. Etiquette really and respect for the others and in return you should receive respect in kind. if androgyness in presentation perhaps some strange looks but might be just that and not omg its a guy in the ladies washroom.
Sorry if I didn't make it all to clear I don't mean to say one must fit exactly just try and fit into the one that is most appropriate. Yes it does suck to accommodate others for our differences but if we don't then that means the creeps get free reign too.
FYI sorry if this seems mean spirited it is not intended just trying to look at the idea as a whole.
Just saying perverts belong on the outside and those may not pass that well but for transgender as long as we are respectful (which I would assume most really are) belong on the inside. The problem is intent is not something really visible some discretion and compromise to a degree must be used.
Sorry for long explanation got the sense my intent was misconstrued as offending and not what I intended what so ever.
:police:
Ok people agree to disagree and move on.
Quote from: Jen72 on April 01, 2015, 10:31:27 PM
To answer you Devlyn in a way yes that Is what I was saying but more on the extreme in the sense that if you are dressed feminine you shouldn't have a beard if that makes sense.
Jen, are you saying that in order to gain admittance to all-female spaces, you need to conform to society's standards of what a woman ought to look like? I.e. It's a free country to express yourself the way you want except gender presentation, which basically needs to be consistent?
Today, I've got several days beard stubble in advance of an electrologist. Some may call that a beard. Sure looks like one. Does that mean I'm not feminine enough to use an all female space? Which space should I use?
Some cis women are cursed with facial hair that approaches male levels. What if one of those folks gets tired of shaving? Should they be denied access to all-female spaces?
It just seems to me that people need to say "It doesn't matter to me who pees where" rather than any of us needing to win a beauty contest. As a community we are better served by demanding acceptance than sacrificing some of our own based on appearances. Unfortunately, many people here view using a public restroom as the Ultimate Passing Event. When we reinforce that by stating we will keep our less beautiful members out, we are going backwards.
Hugs, Devlyn
Sorry just to clarify a bit better I don't mean bit of stubble while still presenting otherwise female. More in that case a full months growth obvious beard kind of thing the extreme really. I would guess that you may have some hair but not like ha ha rip van winkle beard or something silly hence why I meant if more androgyness using discretion. The discretion means that if you are really early on in transition and could easily still pass as maile and presenting as such then use the mens washroom however if the opposite well of course the females washroom. That is of course easy to figure the middle ground is well grey and harder to define hence when this occurs you use some common sense. The grey area if you will is hard but I would guess a big part is given you are in a more neutral presentation that you are less likely desire to draw attention.
Basically I am saying there are times when it is more black and white since there is not choice but two its the grey part that gets hard to figure. As I have stated its your discretion and common sense that should apply at least to some degree to protect the bathrooms from creeps in general. What it comes down to is call it a rule that need not be some law that dictates what common sense should work to alleviate most (not all) issues of preventing creeps out while letting trans in. Give a hypothetical instance and why its just fine. If transgender woman who like you said happens to have some hair isn't overly passable enters the womens bathroom is this a big deal. Well chances are the transgender woman is going in doing business and not trying to attract any attention with the intent of just using the washroom for its intent. Now if you take a creep lets say they are semi passable as well they also go into womens washroom yet they don't exactly walk in do their thing and leave they tend to hang around the sink or something which then draws attention to them therefor their intent Is way different.
Does that clarify were I sit I know its complicated in the grey areas hence using your own judgement the problem of course is others judgement that are in some cases not fair to say the least. But if you are using some discretion and common sense then it would smooth things over if possible. The but part is if In the extreme case that everyone is allowed in whatever bathroom by what they feel like not what they look like then that is a problem. Yet in the grey aspects as long as compromise, discretion, etiquette whatever you will is used that would help ease the tension on both sides.
Sorry I guess I was not clear on my intent as it is a complicated issue that really just needs decent thought on all parties concerned. Sadly of course that wont exist from everyone but if we do use some degree of discretion then things should be ok. I wont respond further if this is deemed offensive not my intent just seeing how the other side of the coin and ramifications of not using some rules could cause more problems then solve.
The problem with "no full beards in wimmen's room" idea is this:
My friend is genderqueer. She is bio-female but wants to be on T- wants a beard and big hairy muscles. BUT she isn't going to get surgery or bind. She doesn't want to pass a man, her ideal is literally a bearded lady with masculine features. So are we supposed to make her a "freaks only" restroom, or does she get to decide where it is safe for her to pee, like an adult, and other people can just do their business and get over it?
I can understand the 'safe zone' feeling of women's restrooms. When I was alone at a truck stop in a rural place with big burly truckers I chickened out and used the ladies. No binder or stubble but I still felt like a jerk, but it just did not feel safe for me to use the men's room looking outwardly a woman. If it had been anywhere near home I would have probably just not been a coward about it, but across the country, in an unfamiliar and pretty middle of nowhere place (literally days worth of driving away from anyone I knew) it felt safer. Anyone should be able to feel safe to pee. If a transwoman needs to use a restroom, she should feel safe to use the ladies room. It would certainly cut down on confusion if it were obvious, but I really don't see how that's a huge issue for me. I have a good number of cis friends that would be able to pass wonderfully and can cross dress well. Put them in the right hairstyle and outfit and they'd get funny looks in a bathroom too. Bearded ladies exist too and personally I'd be happy for them to grow that out as much as they liked for all I care about how a person looks. So long as everyone behaves respectfully- that is the important part.
The problem with the women complaining is she was discriminating. Many businesses have the right to refuse service for any reason and she was giving them plenty. From the sound of itshe wasn't saying "there's a transwomen in the women' sroom" she was saying "there's a MAN in the women's room." Many ignorant people might not see a difference there but pretty sure we can all agree that there is a distinct difference between those two statements! It's a shame the lady who was outed had to suffer the spotlight for simply having the misfortune to be seen by an obnoxious cry-wolfer.
I see your point and yes totally agree its like you said you used your judgement/discretion using womens washroom in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps that I used the beard idea was not exactly the best option and really I do mean how I assume you reacted in that situation was probably this. Hmm which bathroom eh better be womens safer get in and get out. Yes that is the most important part is the respectful intent of how you use the bathroom but I would like to point out is how would you react as a woman in the washroom seeing someone threatening or even not sure what they are up to enter a washroom. It is not immediately known to the viewer in that case to know what will happen therefor in a matter of a few seconds that person might see you are indeed there just to use bathroom as intended. Then again how does one view that strangely presenting person as not a threat versus a threat the only way is essentially like I have said discretion. Perhaps its walk in to bathroom and simply putting your head down as a sign of respect and sheepishly head to stall do your thing etc. Immediate reaction of course is from the viewer is an alarm bell that the person walking is a threat are they not once again discretion.
Of course I do understand the problem as it sits now is a societal one to a degree that needs to soften its view on it. Yet when can you say for sure of the intent that odd person walking towards you is? That is the hard question. The only way I see a fix is not a law just a matter of giving the women a heads up in someway that you are not a pervert and in fact there just to use the bathroom as such. On the flip side more tolerance to the situation but not a total acceptance without some protection from the creeps. Hence partially why a law was intended but laws are usually black and white without allowing the grey which is the problem in itself.
I hope my point which may seem counter to most is seen in that it not against anyone save the creeps/perverts and where the line is drawn as to whom may use what bathroom really comes down to common sense and discretion from both parties but we are the ones that must initiate the discretion first being viewed different. Does that mean we have to absolutely choose which one no it means giving a little extra respect to those in the bathrooms and in return we should receive respect in turn. That will take some time yet I would gather and perhaps in certain towns it already has some not at all.
My appologies I thought I wouldn't respond further but you did bring something to my attention that honestly I did not think of and thank you. I still stick with my intent until such time and getting there that things become more accepted societally but the only way to be accepted is giving a bit more respect then receiving until things truly change if that makes sense.