I was talking with a couple other women from my church. It's a very liberal church and I'm out there as a trans woman and accepted by pretty much everyone.
One of the women was a good friend, the other was one I didn't know well, other than that she's an out lesbian and on the steering committee of the local PFLAG.
The topic of the Michigan Women's Music Festival came up. I mentioned that it's gotten some press because of its policy of excluding trans women. The woman I didn't know well said she could "argue both sides of the issue" and proceeded to argue one side of the issue - that the exclusion was reasonable. "Someone who has spent her whole life as a woman has different experiences from someone who transitioned". She further went on to lament the fact that because of litigation associated with this policy, that the festival may have to close down, which would be a shame because it's such a wonderful event.
The subject changed and we talked about other things, but I've been upset and conflicted. Part of me wants to say that everyone is entitled to her opinion. But another part of me, that I'm having trouble calming down, keeps reminding me that this woman is the face of hate and exclusion. Arguing a hateful, exclusive, discriminatory position doesn't become right just because you state your case calmly and don't use nasty words.
I'll probably see her again at church. Should I tell her that her words upset me, or was this a perfectly legitimate difference of opinion and I'm acting like a child by getting all riled up about it?
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 08, 2015, 06:40:15 PM
... The woman I didn't know well said she could "argue both sides of the issue" and proceeded to argue one side of the issue - that the exclusion was reasonable. ...
Suzi, assuming this woman knew you were trans, I think she was being intentionally rude. In her position of authority with PFLAG, she has to know how hurtful the "exclusion" argument is for trans women.
IMHO, when somebody says they can argue both sides of something, and then picks one, you just found out what they really think. It's a debating technique that allows one to claim objectivity while being anything but.
Also, her tactless little put down reflects badly on the local PFLAG chapter, as she is expected to be an ambassador in the community for that organization's values. Which explicitly includes support for transgender people, family and friends.
I can't resist quoting from the PFLAG trans page:
QuoteThe more you know about various transgender and gender non-conforming narratives and experiences, the more you will be able to provide the kind of love and support necessary to help them grow and lead a dignified and healthy life.
So, her comments were either ignorant or malicious.
OK, end of rant. Sorry you had to experience this...
My inclination is to let it go its one of those CFS situations. Neither can win so why waste the energy and possibly get really upset, it is not worth it. She is not the last person you will meet with that attitude I have met a few like her and just learned to tolerate them and have no dialog.
Humm... Maybe you can ask her how she sees the other side, why should TG/TS women be included. If she can't see any reason why it's wrong to exclude any women, then you may be dealing with a closeted TERF. On the other hand I think JustPat has a point, probably best to steer clear of her in the future. Do you know anyone else on the PFLAG steering committee? Maybe you can express your disappointment in this woman's attitude toward transgender women.
-Alana
It could come from a place of discrimination at her heart, or should could just be parroting what has been said before because she hasn't given all that much thought to the issue..
I know when I talk politics there will often be someone who doesn't like conflict and states something very similar to seeing both sides but, it is many times not what they actually bekieve or they haven't thiught much on it, just their default position is to assume the arguments both sides make are reasonable and rational.
In any case will it do good for you to be confronting her about how upset it made you? There are lots of factors at play there including your potential comfort with the group so, it there are quite a few things to consider there.
Michfest is a pretty important event in lesbian culture and very meaningful to the women who attend. She's a lesbian - she will be approaching from that perspective.
Don't assume that she hates trans women, or hates you personally. Try not to see her as the "face of hate." To her, Michfest is likely not at all about "hate" in the slightest. She didn't seem to say anything hateful either - "someone who has spent her whole life as a woman has different experiences from someone who transitioned" is not a hateful statement.
If the topic is going to upset you, don't put yourself through the stress of talking about it again. This seems like a culture difference that is pretty difficult to bridge. Try to find other ways to connect with her at church, or just don't socialize with her as much and focus on your other supportive friends. Good luck.
Michfest sounds as much fun as going to the dentist,I'm glad i can't get in!
Hi,
As an intersexed female im not included in to the gay /lesbian world im an out sider and many of the hard linners don't /wont accept in my case im a female yet I know some trans people who don't /wont ether so even though im a female born with out a womb I stand no chance of being accepted ,
on the other side I do have a few women who are gay/ lesbian and accept me as a normal female /woman ,
the strange part about this is if you have a slight sniff of male about you as I do and is part of my background birth, then don't expect to be accepted, hey I live with it and it does not bother me don't waste your time in talking or debating , a brick wall will hear more than they will and that's the way it is ,
...noeleena...
Quote from: DoYouRealize on March 24, 2015, 01:33:09 AM
If the topic is going to upset you, don't put yourself through the stress of talking about it again.
How is injustice ever to be corrected if no one talks about it?
Teaching moment!!!
Suzi, would you consider channeling that wonderful passion and writing an open letter to her PFLAG chapter. You wouldn't have to name names, (although you certainly could ie , I was speaking with XX the other day and the topic of the Women's Music Festival came up. It is my understanding that due to prejudice, the Festival may be cancelled. Let me tell you why I think this would be a great opportunity for solidarity. ... and ending with thanking PFLAG for being such a strong supporter or equality .... or something like that.
That would get your point across while exposing the prejudice (should you wish to do that.) and ALSO educate a lot of people who are trying to be supportive but might not understand what they could be supporting.
Chris
Being familiar with the particular PFLAG chapter, as I am, this seems pretty mild for them. They are not an especially trans* friendly group. They got their tokens who make no effort to educate or inform them, and they don't want to hear from anybody else. Knowing that, I wonder why you would expect anything different from them?
I think if we are really honest, we have to admit that there are difference between a person who transitions and one who does not. The fact of transition itself is one obvious difference. But the problem with the Michigan festival is that it is using that fact as merely its latest attempt to phrase its transphobia. Over the years they have actually toned down their rhetoric. It used to be even more openly hateful than it is now. But they only seem to be finding ways of rewording hate rather than actually changing.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 24, 2015, 06:11:20 AM
How is injustice ever to be corrected if no one talks about it?
Have you attempted to see this from the other side? Have you considered that this isn't as black-and-white an issue as simply "injustice" - that this is a private festival intended for a specific group of people who feel they deserve a space of their own?
Here's the real problem: the patriarchy is big and bad and wants to hurt us all.
Going after a music festival created as a safe space for females and lesbians is punching people who are already vulnerable. It's their space... let 'em have it.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 24, 2015, 02:34:20 PM
DYR-
Are you suggesting that we are not "real" females or "real" lesbians? And are we not vulnerable also?
I would suggest that most trans-women have had similar experiences as these "real" women (excepting for the bleeding regularly part) and that perhaps both sides could learn from the others' experiences.
I didn't use the words "real" or "not real." And i'm not sure why you chose to use those words; you are not quoting me, certainly.
Nor did i say that trans women are not vulnerable. That would be ludicrous. It's a scary world out there. This isn't Oppression Olympics. It's not about whoever perceives themselves as "most vulnerable" wins.
What i am saying is that females and lesbians created Michfest with a purpose, and many of them still feel that the purpose is necessary. Many of the members of this historically oppressed group (that is, people who are born female) have stated that they want space for themselves. At the point when they say these words, when they say "we need this," they have given the signal for safe space.
The rules of safe space, as i learned them in queer theory class, say something about how if a group, especially a marginalized or oppressed group, decides to create a space just for themselves - even if we don't understand why, even if we are hurt to be excluded, even if we DO understand why and completely disagree on their reasons and want very much to challenge them and discuss it with them and change their minds - we must respect their desire for their own space, and not make a point of invading it or belittling them for their needs.
Therefore it seems cruel to go after this private event when there are much, much bigger threats to all of our safety and happiness. Huge, structural, oppressive threats. Legal threats. Safety threats. Etc.
Why is it wrong for them to have a space free of those they may feel threatened by? And there is a difference between us and them besides the whole "bleeding regularly" part. Most of us, especially late transitioners, had some advantage in being born male. Our penises aren't female, they are a part of the male anatomy, whether we like it or not. We were born into bodies we may not have liked, but that doesn't make us automatically just like them. Do we need to force our way into their space and simply tell them they have to accept us against their will or stop having their space? Isn't that forcing them to capitulate to this or that part of what drove them to need that space? I'm sorry, but there are realities we can't escape and its kind of foolish in my opinion to sit around and deny them and hope they all go away based on wishful thinking. Seeing how forceful and aggressive so many can be, I can understand their desire to exclude that from their space and I'm not going to call them a bunch of transphobes for not wanting to be bullied into accepting those they feel no kinship with just to make a few feel like they're just "one of the girls."
Me, I know I would have loved to have been born female or normal or something different than how I was. But I can't change that, but I'll be damned if I'm going to force myself somewhere I am not wanted and try to make a group of people(who likely have experienced many things that we could have no idea of) uncomfortable and threatened just to make myself feel better. Its ->-bleeped-<-ed up. I'm sorry, but it is.
Quote from: marsh monster on March 24, 2015, 03:58:19 PM
I'll be damned if I'm going to force myself somewhere I am not wanted and try to make a group of people(who likely have experienced many things that we could have no idea of) uncomfortable and threatened just to make myself feel better.
marsh monster, if you were anywhere near me IRL right now, i would offer you the biggest darn hug.
I am withdrawing my participation in this thread.
Life is too short to get worked up about an online discussion.
Peace.
I am not implying that i am a mighty graduate of anything. :P
Safe space is a term i hear a lot in queer community, so i was attempting to translate the female-only policy into a term which might make sense to folks who "speak queer theory," instead of folks who "speak radical feminist theory."
My use of the word "female" has no unsaid implications at all - it means female, at birth. That's not an implication, that is simply what is. It's a biological term and that's why i used it, because 1) some female radical feminists and lesbians do not wish to be called "cis" and i agree with them on this, and 2) "real women" or "not real women" are extremely offensive terms and i refuse to categorize trans people as not "real."
You asked for the reason for female-only space. Here it is. Again.
The reason for a female-only space is because many females feel the need for such a space. That is reason enough.
There are few if any spaces anywhere in the default world where females are front and center, creating space by themselves, for themselves. They want this. They can have it.
We can try to have dialogue and hope for inclusion in the future, but trying to push the festival to change before it is ready - or god forbid attempt to shut down the festival or spread hate against it - will do no good.
Ah, ok Beth Andrea.
I replied to your post before you re-edited it. I hope your afternoon (or whatever time it is for you) gets better. Peace.
I have to admit that the whole trans*-inclusion-in-women's-spaces thing gets pretty complicated the more you dive into it. At least in my mind.
But I did not get the impression that the OP's purpose was to start a discussion about when/where trans* people should be included. I thought the point was to offer help in the OP's reaction and feelings about what was said.
Perhaps I am mistaken.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 24, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
I have to admit that the whole trans*-inclusion-in-women's-spaces thing gets pretty complicated the more you dive into it. At least in my mind.
But I did not get the impression that the OP's purpose was to start a discussion about when/where trans* people should be included. I thought the point was to offer help in the OP's reaction and feelings about what was said.
Perhaps I am mistaken.
I suppose I jumped into an ongoing minor derail with my own thoughts on the matter within the matter. I have strong feelings on it.
And to answer the actual question Susi had, I'd say that it was a difference opinion and personally, I feel that it is not necessarily transphobic to have that particular opinion. Its not denying others so much as its simply protecting an existing space to be used as it was originally intended. I think you should take it in stride and maybe spend more time discussing things with the lady before you really form too much of an opinion about her.
Quote from: DoYouRealize on March 24, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
My use of the word "female" has no unsaid implications at all - it means female, at birth
So you're implying trans men should be included here then? Why the hell does it matter what label is forced on us at birth? There is zero part of me that is female and I want nothing to do with any of this stuff. An unwanted label means nothing to me. I dont understand your argument at all. Trans women are women. End of story. Why does forced label at birth change that or even socialisation? They are still women. I might have had a label forced on me that would include me in stuff like this but it means nothing, I am still male. It just seems offensive to me to try and exclude women from female things and try include men in them all based on something that was forced on us. Thats exactly what TERFs do
Quote from: DoYouRealize on March 24, 2015, 04:58:11 PM
That's not an implication, that is simply what is. It's a biological term and that's why i used it
Something that is also continually misused is the whole 'biologically male/female' nonsense. What does that even mean anymore? More genital fixations? There are women born without vaginas, wombs, women with XY chromosomes, men born without penises, testicles, XX chromosomes.. I just dont get why people keep using the 'biological' term that has practically no basis to it. All they really seem to mean is what label was forced on you at birth. Or its just buying into cisnormative assumptions again that women have vaginas + XX chromosomes and thats what 'biologically' means. Which excludes so many people not even just trans people here
Trans people should not be excluded from anything. Sorry its nothing but discrimination to do so. Its treating us differently, othering us. Whatever 'upbringing' we had doesnt change the fact we are men and women same as they are. Im tired of people trying to give them excuses on why its ok to do this. It isnt. Yes women can have safe spaces and should have them. Excluding trans women from this (who are WOMEN) is not ok because they are kinda included in the 'female' or 'women' title. Its still what they are. To deny them involvement in anything is basically saying well you're not 'really' a woman so you dont belong here. Trans people are more oppressed than them as cis people are but they see it ok to exclude them from everything. I wouldnt tolerate it. If we sit in silence and let them walk all over us nothing will ever change. Fighting against things like this is the only way we will ever be seen as equal to them and not othered like this
Yes. Michfest is a private festival (open to the public).
Just as southern lunch counters that excluded black people were privately owned, but open to the public.
Should it have been OK for white folks to exclude black folks from their lunch counters because their experience was different? Should white folks have been allowed to claim lunch counters as a "safe space" from (black) people that made them uncomfortable?
I'm sorry, but I don't see two sides to this issue. Exclusion is exclusion, no matter how you try to justify it. If there are places that all other women are allowed and trans women aren't, we are
second class citizens.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 24, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
But I did not get the impression that the OP's purpose was to start a discussion about when/where trans* people should be included. I thought the point was to offer help in the OP's reaction and feelings about what was said.
Perhaps I am mistaken.
Thanks for looking out for me. That means a lot. I initially wanted some thoughts on how to deal with the person I had spoken to from people who understood why this meant so much to me. But I do find opposing viewpoints interesting.
I tried to stay on topic in my initial response by saying simply: She probably doesn't hate you at all.
You may never understand each others' point of view about this particular event... but there are so many more points where you could connect with one another. It would be a shame to label her a "face of hate" just because she disagrees with you about Michfest.
@Jigsaw,
Intersex persons whose genitals are "read" as female, who are raised with girlhoods and an expectation of a future womanhood have had a female-born experience as well. I was going to mention this population, but thought it might seem a little too far off topic ... AND as I am not intersex myself, I hesitate to invoke their experiences in a discussion.
Trans men? I don't believe that very many trans men would want to go to Michfest - so I don't see much purpose in figuring out whether they are included or not, except as a hypothetical exercise, and this topic wasn't about hypotheticals.
The topic is about whether someone who supported Michfest's female-space intention is necessarily a transphobic or hateful person. And my answer is, no, she isn't necessarily a hateful person and it is possible that someone who supports this policy can also be a friend to trans people as well.
I am so sick and tired of this women festival thing that comes up year after year. Seriously what difference will it make in your or my entire life experience if either of us went there or didn't go there?? None. If they don't want you or I there, there are tons of places that will not only welcome your money but your friendship. Seriously forget all this TG community nonsense. The reality is much simpler. The real world does not have problems with TG people. If you are a good person then others will know it and be welcoming. In fact it's been my experience that people will bend over backwards to help.
Some of those radical feminists clearly hail from the tinfoil hat brigade. If they as a group want to say you are welcome if you were born with a vagina and bleed every month then so be it. If they want to hang out in the woods and beat drums, not shower and have hairy legs while they worship their menstrual cycles, then fine. None of us can bring any value to an event like that. If the TG community doesn't like the women festival then they should set up their own and make it better and show them up.
I think they make some weird assumptions, is what I think - some trans girls have been raised as girls since toddlerhood, and some trans women do not have penises (not to mention that some trans men do, and they are welcome). Yet neither class of woman is permitted, even though they fit all the requirements, even sometimes having been socialized female as children.
So I can't help but suspect that the "woman born woman" spaces are grasping for excuses rather than truly believing there is some universal female experience from which trans women are automatically and forever excluded (and trans men included). If they really mean "No Penises Allowed," then at least have the guts to SAY that (and ban trans men and packing lesbians).
Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2015, 09:02:02 PM
some trans girls have been raised as girls since toddlerhood
Interesting isn't it? I imagine that this phenomenon, which is fairly recent, may well be one of the pieces that leads to a change in policy eventually.
Trans women already attend Michfest, of course they are asked to respect the intention that the festival is centered around the experiences of women who are female born and raised. I don't think it's a good idea to try to force Michfest to change... But in time, I definitely see inclusion happening naturally as "female born" and "female raised" become less and less the same experience.
Still... growing up with a vulva (or with genitals which are typed as a vulva in the case of some intersex persons) and all of the expectations of girlhood which go along with it is a unique experience in patriarchal oppression... thus there must be
some spaces where females can talk about this oppression... without someone piping up and talking about male genitals and male experiences, whether current or long past.
I am sure that a "female born/raised only" camping area or series of workshops would remain, even if the festival itself became trans-inclusive.