Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Okay, for those who worry about passing this is a bit like the "If I had one wish" thread, but without the wish. Pick the option that you think is giving you the most difficulty or will sometimes trip you up. And, before you ask, NO you can't select them all or more than one because it screws up the stats if different people have different numbers of votes.

Poll categories apply to both MTF and FTM. So "Facial hair" can mean beard growth or lack of whereas "Breasts" can mean too little or too much.

As usual my apologies if this poll has appeared before but I'm too lazy to check back.
Also, sorry if I have offended anyone for using the term "passing", I know it can irritate some people and is not very PC.

Personally I would select options 1-7, but as I can only select one I'll pick Body Shape Type as it's so damn hard to change / disguise.
Or maybe I should have picked Face... sigh.

And yes, I now realise I should have put in options for Confidence and Mannerisms. Just lets assume you've either got them or don't realise you haven't. And, in case you wondered, the poll is limited to passing in public which is why I have omitted (forgotten) other options.

When I go to LGBT spaces, people are on the lookout for tall gawky women. If people aren't thinking about trans, then I pass OK, but there are too many signs - high forehead, height, broad shoulders over narrow hips, and a general lack of grace - for me to pass when people are thinking I might be trans.

This post (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180833.0.html) sums it up for me.

I typically don't have any difficulty passing, but I think it's a combination of height and hands/feet size that gives me away. I feel much more comfortable and confident wearing boots or other shoes that are naturally larger by default, and walking with my hands in my pockets.

For me, its my face and my voice.

I haven't really expierenced any problems passing, I have all sorts of things that I feel should be sending off red flags, but I guess they don't.

It is not like I fail to pass 100% of the time, but when I do, I blame the facial hair.

Other things I can work on myself or have been given them on birth. That is as far as a superficial contact goes!
This week I had my first face laser treatment, and I had it rough. I've got burns to deal with at the brink of summer.

Face - otherwise can pass without make up.
Head hair - an easy choice, I have none; on one end I am confined to wigs, on the other I can choose hair I am comfortable with
Breasts - good stuffed bras work for now; I hope of course to grow my own when I start with hrt
Height - I am 6' tall but this is the Netherlads; people are tall here. Many cis women are taller than I. Let alone men!!!
Body Shape Type - Nay, it is good enough
Voice - Work in progress, I don't have to speak with everyone now do I

On the few occasions where I appear not to have passed it would probably be my height (6'3") mainly for drawing attention to me in the first place.

hair is definitely my dilemma. I'm a chromedome and definitely need good wigs. (or a cute turban or two)
I suppose I pass otherwise if I dress carefully and have enough makeup on. Fingers crossed that HRT will improve all this

When I get clocked I think its most likely caused by my voice. When i'm out and about I draw no attention to myself whatsoever; if someone happens to zero in on me I believe they start thinking that there is something amiss and then they begin to pick me apart. If say something and accidentally let my voice drop that confirms it to them. I'm told by my friends that my natural voice is somewhere between male and female but apparently it's male enough that a slip up will out me.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 13, 2015, 04:10:08 AM
On the few occasions where I appear not to have passed it would probably be my height (6'3") mainly for drawing attention to me in the first place.

I don't think your height is making you not pass, but it does draw attention to you.  I'm 6'7" with long red hair and pass all the time. Everywhere I go I'm remembered being a tall woman with red hair. Today I went into Globe Shoes and the salesman remembered me from last December I was there. He told be today there is another woman about my height that shops there and we have the same shoe size (13W).

I once had a women in the bathroom while washing my hands looking at my neck looking for an Adam's apple (fortunately I don't have one that shows). I overheard her talking to another woman about me when my wife and I caught up to her in the mall. (She said to her friend: "I just saw the tallest woman I've ever seen and know she wasn't a guy since she didn't have an Adam's apple.) So yes height will put you under a magnifying glass, but it will not clock you alone.

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on June 13, 2015, 11:20:28 PMI once had a women in the bathroom while washing my hands looking at my neck looking for an Adam's apple

Really inconvenient how people look for a reason to segregate.

One trick that might work in such situations is to just position the adam's apple as if you were going to talk /in female voice/. For me, that pulls it up enough to conceal.

Quote from: michellemartine on June 14, 2015, 12:08:30 AM
Really inconvenient how people look for a reason to segregate.

One trick that might work in such situations is to just position the adam's apple as if you were going to talk /in female voice/. For me, that pulls it up enough to conceal.

Fortunately for me, Sandra Bullock has a bigger Adam's Apple than I do.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiberetta.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2FSandra-bullock-gravity-hair-cut.jpg&hash=865a40bb27a080f13d378db0c4df37c508067966)

But yes, talking in a female voice does pull it up and blocks vibrations from going into the chest to keep a head voice that is feminine. My voice is pretty good as well. I even passed the other day with my voice with a blind couple. (One was completely blind and his wife can only see shapes, but she can't see faces.)

Body shape and height are my two main issues. Curvy and short - a trans guy's worst nightmare ::)

I put voice as I transitioned a year ahead of schedule and have just started to work on the voice - it is not terrible, but a problem.  I also don't pass if I dress like a normal woman on her day off - I always need to make an effort and show enough gender markers (boobs help) to overcome my 6 foot height and straigh body type.  But when I am careful and I don't speak much I pass almost 100% of the time.

For me, I think it's my chest size (I'm FtM, E/F-cup depending on shop), as the main reason. I bind safely, but I can never get it flat enough to look how I want it too. I wear lose shirts, which helps a little, but people do still often notice.

I also... have a very soft, child-like face, which doesn't help. If I'm out with my Mum, I often get mistaken for a young teenager (I'm 200.

Voice is the first killer for me.
I think my face gets clocked some of the time.
I have broad shoulders, and I think they contribute to the clocking.  My wife says no, and that she would kill for them.  Funny, I would kill for her hourglass, but w/e....

Quote from: ainsley on June 25, 2015, 10:36:52 AM
I have broad shoulders, and I think they contribute to the clocking.

A number of cis women I know do hawe wide shoulders. It happens. Also is more obvious on a skinny person.

Wide shoulders on their own are not a prob imo.

As far as I know I've never been clocked. Even neighbors didn't realize who I was when they saw me after I started. I was only ever clocked twice, Once right when i first started transitioning and was purchasing new work clothes. The employee was very polite though and never actually said anything to me and now we're actually friends. And the second time was by a fellow transwoman who came in to my work to open up a bank account but it took her a few minutes of noticing similarities between us before she realized.

I've got really wide shoulders and no hips and a tiny rear, I can grow a beard in a day, my voice is deep, my jaw is wide, and my nose is the typical roman profile- which is a dead give away.

I can shave and use make up to hide the stubble (but only for so long), pad my rear and hips, use a wig to hide part of my face, and just not talk- and even then, still not pass.

On the occasion that I do get clocked it's generally the voice which is why most misgendering results from people who knew me prior to transition.
Mariah

I picked breasts cause I'm a DD, but there are other factors: my height, my hourglass figure, my softer facial features, my voice.

Why don't I pass?  Practice.  Practice, and more practice is needed.  It'll take years to purge all the mail cultural cues and gestures and condition in replacements that ciswomen are immersed in from birth.  I have to soak up what a child absorbed over a couple decades.  (No, it's not all genetically preprogrammed!  How many American women understand the proper way to wear a sari, or when to wear a fukuro, hanhaba, or sakiori obi?  Much 'femininity' is culture-specific and absorbed by ciswomen in childhood.)

Honest to gosh, body form and face aren't nearly as important as how you wear it.  There are lots of pretty men, handsome women, and other less flattering variations. Women with more facial hair than my male body could produce.  Men with huge breasts.  Endless variety... 

  Voice?  Maybe.  But old women who were lifetime smokers still pass as women in spite of that raspy bass voice.  Male sopranos don't lose their man card.  It's not pitch, it's the cultural conventions.  The "Um" at the start of sentences.  The "squeak" of rising pitch at the end of a statement. Terse replys.  Use of more assertive language, and clipped delivery.  Certain singsong rhythms in the voice that we absorb in childhood.

I said voice.  My shoulders are broad for a woman, but not terribly so, and my rib cage is pretty wide, but it can be hidden in drapy clothes.  My male pattern baldness will have to be covered with a wig, but that is do-able.  It is going to be my voice that gives me away.  I should really be looking for a voice coach right now to get started on that.

Other-

Turns out I do pass in a way...maybe for a young person. My biggest obstacle is people who know my sex calling me the wrong pronoun and name around others :P

OK, Dr. Haben took my voice to a passing pitch.  Have not been misgendered since the surgery in May.  Now, it is just the typical testosterone poisoning of my face that remains...jaw, lip, forehead.  Not bad, but critical me can see it. ;)

I believe I pass pretty much all the time these days but when I didn't it was usually due to my voice. I looked (and still look) like a young boy but alas, my voice ruined even that.

But yeah, I still get mistaken for lot younger than I actually am and people are usually pretty surprised to learn that I'm not a teenager anymore. :D But it's still passing!

I can't vote from my phone.
The biggest thing that keeps me from passing are my breasts. They are too big to get fully flat with a binder. The other thing that keeps me from passing is the two short people who accompany me everywhere saying "mom" every 30 seconds...

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I picked voice. I can control most other factors, but if I could have picked two things, I would have added my HUGE adam's apple. In winter I can wear scarves and turtle-necks but summer it's just too hot.

I definitely think it's breasts. I have a B cup and it's there. I'm going to slim down quite a bit and develop some muscle, so that it's going to improve. But I am annoyed at the whole boobs thing. I don't want a flat-flat-flat chest but something like pecs for sure. A little andro touch, if you like.

Other than that, I have some natural broad shoulders that unfortunately gets the spotlight taken away by a pear-shaped something. Workout, here I come!

My face is ok, I wouldn't want facial hair anyway and I'm told I have an elegant face. With more definition I would love to get the high cheekbones to stand out more, but I think I can pass with this one.

Voice, it's a silly thing. I can totally pass if I want to, but sometimes people are freaked out so I go for an airy voice that I hate. I'm a trained singer, so I damn know when I'm doing things wrong. Once I asked about how I sound when I don't think about my voice, and the answer was something like "I can't place you M or F".

Height is 5'5" so I'm on the short side of things but I have learned to spot short guys around me and there are many. And I'm more agile than those 6' gods!

Head hair stay where they are, in their natural dark ash blonde glory.

So yes it's boobs.  :eusa_eh:

Checked "head hair" or lack of it. I'm almost certainly never going to go for hair transplant and doubt I have enough follicles to manage anyhow.

Facial hair is right up there, I don't have the money/time for electrolysis or even laser. The last time I shaved off my beard was in 2000 and I didn't much like the results and so I'm also more inclined to have a face I find attractive than one that's passable.

Passing full time would therefore require shaving daily and daily makeup application and a wig. That's absolutely out of the question for days I work blowing glass, swim, bike or run.

Then there would be being 5'11" and quite muscular  as well as all the body hair that 7 months of higher than normal-female estrogen levels / nil testosterone hasn't touched.

So I'm aiming for genderqueer and gradually shifting clothing and appearance to more femme.

Gotta start working on voice.

Sadie, just a quick note on hair.   Right now my male hair is cut short, a half inch to an inch, which makes the wigs cooler.  For full time, once electrolysis has me de-furred and HRT has had a chance to work, the plan is to just shave the head of the remaining hair (Norwood Type 6, buzz the fringe and wax the top... :) ), and when working out just go with a scarf, cap, or bare.  Same approach as folks with medical hair loss take, basically.

Just another possibility to consider.

I voted voice, as I think that's the main problem with me passing.
My fella has been able to observe the reactions of others to me when they don't know we're an item, and he's said it's been my Adam's Apple.
I would really like to ask people, when I get clocked, what it was that 'outed' me, but I never feel confident to do that, and I'm not sure it would end well anyway.
I'm also very self-conscious about my broad flat shoulders, small breasts in relation to my shoulders, no real waist shape and narrow hips which all go to creating a not very feminine shape. I have to dress creatively, but then that often means not wearing the things I really want to  >:(
My hair is also another bugbear, and I'm sure it has caused people to give me a second look, and then look closer for other signs. The one downside to all the media attention that trans people are getting now is that the general public are more informed about giveaway cues to spotting trans people.
I think my best feminine assets are my hands and bum.

Quote from: Michelle_P on August 02, 2016, 09:28:48 AM
Sadie, just a quick note on hair.   Right now my male hair is cut short, a half inch to an inch, which makes the wigs cooler. 

Good points Michelle, I appreciate. The thing is, having now gotten my hair to shoulder-length (it took about 9 months) and able to tie-back into a ponytail without too many annoying stray bits flying free, that's enough added heat. The tying back certainly helps a lot and I don't want to ever go back to that in-between length.

Perhaps I didn't adequately describe the context.

Imagine riding 50, 100, 150 miles on a bike going fast in hot weather, or doing hard physical work for 6-8 hours - sometimes as much as 10 or 12 - in front of a 2000 degree furnace. In those circumstances I sweat **profusely** think upwards of 2+ lbs of water per hour so 3 gallons or more over the course of a day, finishing the day literally caked in salt. Yes, removing natural hair will make the wig less hot but the wig is *always* going to be hotter than natural hair, let alone a layer of hair + a wig (to say nothing of the damage to the wig itself).

Now sure I could remove a wig for that period, I guess presenting something like a consistent image is more important to me than the actual act of passing.

Thanks, for the ideas and I get that there are ways to make it more tolerable, I think it remains 'a bridge too far' for me.

My voice, especially since I try to be as reserved as possible for various reasons, which often doesn't help with the voice.

Quote from: Takoto on June 25, 2015, 08:50:45 AM
For me, I think it's my chest size (I'm FtM, E/F-cup depending on shop), as the main reason. I bind safely, but I can never get it flat enough to look how I want it too. I wear lose shirts, which helps a little, but people do still often notice.

I also... have a very soft, child-like face, which doesn't help. If I'm out with my Mum, I often get mistaken for a young teenager (I'm 200.

And all this time -at 46- I thought I was the oldest FTM here ;)

If I'm not mindful, I will get ma'am-ed on the phone. I've always hated talking on the phone anyway for other reasons so I just avoid it!

I am just too bulky and masculine and everytime I try on a dress or something feminine I just don't look right or perhaps I just need to wear plus size clothes that fit more comfortably for my body size, I just don't know where to go to find plus size clothes that peak my interest, it seems like the better clothes cater to non plus sized gals.

For many years I could pass with a minimum of effort. Then the years caught up with me. Got fat and hairy. Now I seldom try to pass, I just go out as a man wearing feminine style clothing. And I am way past the point in my life where I give a rat's elbow what anyone else thinks.

I know some people stress over what others think, but life is too long to live like that!

My voice on the phone.  I have to really concentrate talking on the phone. I have worked on my voice a lot but it requires constant practice. Since I am not full time my practice time is very limited.

Quote from: xchrisx on September 19, 2016, 07:17:01 AM

And all this time -at 46- I thought I was the oldest FTM here ;)

If I'm not mindful, I will get ma'am-ed on the phone. I've always hated talking on the phone anyway for other reasons so I just avoid it!

Nope, I'm 55 and just starting my transitioning!

For me its my face.  I have a very oval, babyish face that runs in my family for both the men and women.  Since I don't have much facial hair yet (7 months on T), I still get clocked.  I DO have a deep voice, and I've almost always had a male gait and stance, but people look at my face and go "female." [emoji17]

Second is my voice while on the phone.  I think that people hear a "three pack a day, 30 year smoker" instead of a male voice.  Idunno.

Ryuichi

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I think I pass pretty much on my physical appearance, its my voice that gets me nailed every time, it's horrible :(
Oh and sometimes I will just in general be way to nervous and I think people can get to looking more than normal because of it :/

My voice is my only limitation.  Other than that I can generally pass with strangers in just jeans and a t shirt without any substantial makeup other than maybe a little powder since I have too much facial hair.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

My voice.  Goddess, but getting that right is hard, and not at all a habit yet.  It's going to take me years to get it right.

I did a presentation last night and it was recorded and shared on Facebook with my permission.  You can see it in my feed if the Facebook deities are in a good mood.   As soon as I am distracted by the subject matter I lose the voice totally, and years of old bad habits dominate.  I hate it, but it just takes time, years of time, to wipe a half century of old habits and build new ones.

https://www.facebook.com/Michelle.P001 (https://www.facebook.com/Michelle.P001) or in several videos here https://www.facebook.com/pg/BeniciaARC/videos/?ref=page_internal (https://www.facebook.com/pg/BeniciaARC/videos/?ref=page_internal)

I would say that it was my voice when i was smoking cigs but since i stopped i don't have the issue with my voice anymore. Oh if im to be pedantic one thing could be my chin lol i have the exact same chin as my mother although hers is more square but we both have bum chins lol i am hoping to get that changed in my next round of surgery, it bothers me a whole lot It's not that it's prominent or anything just that one part where the bum is irritates me.  ;D

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 14, 2017, 11:45:47 AM
...As soon as I am distracted by the subject matter I lose the voice totally, and years of old bad habits dominate.  I hate it...

I can relate!  I had this problem before voice surgery, and now my pitch stays good, but my intonation, resonance, prosody, etc., all take a hit when I get into my technical subject matter.  I have to consciously tell myself to stop, reset, and speak properly during these times.  Usually, I notice my posture has changed, too, so getting back into proper posture helps maintain proprioception and good speaking form.

Practice!!

Heh, I can totally agree, as getting distracted or engrossed in what I'm saying is the biggest problem I have with my voice. I can start off quite well, but maintaining that during a conversation that isn't over after a few exchanges, is rather difficult. And if the conversation turns to to something that interests me, or indeed annoys me, then I'm likely to get distracted/engrossed in what I saying rather than how I'm saying it. Even after FtM speech therapy and over 15 years of practising, I still can't manage it :(
The more I try to keep my voice as female-sounding as possible, the more disjointed and hesitant and fettered the flow of my conversation becomes. I've sometimes tried so hard to stop my voice dropping back to maleness, that I've totally forgotten (mid-speech) what I was saying, although that might be old age creeping in as well ;)
It's interesting what you say @ainsley, that even with voice surgery, this issue is still prevalent.
I was thinking about voice surgery, but I did wonder about this, and your comment really does make me think that it wouldn't be the right thing for me, as I'd still get distracted during talking, and everything apart from pitch would go awry.

On the positive side, I find that if I do make a good enough initial impression with my voice, then it's amazing what I can later 'get away with' before folks start to raise an eyebrow.

I tend to lose the pitch and start dropping the ends of my words back into chest resonance when I lose focus on my voice techniques...but I guess its one of those things that just takes time and practice ...sigh!!

I don't know if this was MTF only...but I'm busting up in here!

I think it's mostly my voice, but it's also probably my figure and face, though in my eyes, I looked manly even when identifying as feminine...But I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part.

(https://thumb.ibb.co/mZcisk/Pic_Joint.png) (https://ibb.co/mZcisk)

Definitely my voice. I like to pretend the rest of my passes, lol!

Quote from: transguymac on June 28, 2017, 10:44:04 AM
I don't know if this was MTF only...but I'm busting up in here!

I think it's mostly my voice, but it's also probably my figure and face, though in my eyes, I looked manly even when identifying as feminine...But I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part.

(https://thumb.ibb.co/mZcisk/Pic_Joint.png) (https://ibb.co/mZcisk)

Dude, you look great and T will take care of your voice in time. :)

Quote from: transguymac on June 28, 2017, 10:44:04 AM
I don't know if this was MTF only...but I'm busting up in here!

I think it's mostly my voice, but it's also probably my figure and face, though in my eyes, I looked manly even when identifying as feminine...But I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part.

(https://thumb.ibb.co/mZcisk/Pic_Joint.png) (https://ibb.co/mZcisk)

Looking Great dude ;)...as JB Girl said....T will most likely sort that voice issue out.

While there may be other things, my facial hair stubble is really what stops me the most. Even if I do get a close shave, it's back within an hour, and there are some areas that are next to impossible to shave close. I absolutely hate wearing foundation also.

I really need to bite the bullet and get electrolysis. I tried a home laser, but that is too painful to use at a setting high enough to have much of an effect, other than the few areas that were kind of sparse to begin with. Wasting a year or so doing this has allowed than much more of them to turn gray.

My pick was as the majority: voice. Although I dithered between that one and facial hair. Having been on testo for a considerable amount of time, I sometimes don't pass as my birth sex now in detransition.

I'd like to think that after a very close shave and neatly applied makeup, and wearing my breast forms in feminine attire, I'd pass just fine as a woman, as long as I kept my mouth shut. My voice settled at a baritone pitch several years ago, and in other words that's in the lower end of average for an adult male. I like still it, but it's far from feminine. So I don't want to change it even if it gives me off. I'd rather then just explain my situation to people than change something about my body that I'm actually fond of. However, when talking I do get weird looks. Okay I do get weird looks anyway, so maybe my makeup and beard coverage just isn't as neat as I'd like to think...

It doesn't show up in photos, and irl I can only see it if I'm really up close to a mirror. However my mom has inpolitely pointed out that my makeup "doesn't hide it at all" to which I snappily replied "yeah but what else should I do then?" and sighed. I do grow a lot of very dense and dark facial hair. And as others have said here already, shaving close is tricky in some areas. I've got a nose and a mouth inconveniently in the way of the razor. It also doesn't help when you have a lot of acne scarring and raised bumps that get nicked from shaving no matter how you go about it. And dents where the razor simply can't reach. When I used to have my beard grown out in my transition, that caused a lot of acne breakouts which scarred my face, so now I have to suffer the consequences of... let's just sum it up as too many bad decisions.

Otherwise, I'd say if it wasn't for just those two things I'd pass just fine. I'm not sure if my having no breasts would raise suspicions though, in and of itself. It doesn't look naturally flat. Like the scars do reveal there once used to be breasts there. But it's rare that I show it to people anyway. And when I do it's only in very intimate, private settings, in which they already know my story. Most women don't tend to show their bare chests in public anyhow. But then the good thing about that is... for those people in those settings I don't need to try to pass as a woman; they know I'm a woman. That is so reversed to how it was when I lived as a man.

I think my biggest factor that stops me from passing in my mind.
Once I let go and try it becomes easier, I am sure that a bit facial reconstruction will help a lot, eventually that will be done too.
After that it will only be my confidence which will pull it off really well.