I'm attracted to trans women (http://www.salon.com/2013/10/22/im_attracted_to_trans_women/)
By Thomas Matt / via Salon
I never thought I would have to come out about being attracted to women. But that's the funny and sad position I'm in these days. Although I don't see anything different about my sexual orientation, most people do.
About four years ago, I was an exchange student in Thailand, a country known for its large, open transgender population. While most men avoided trans women, I saw no difference between them and cisgender women (women who were born biologically female). I was attracted to trans women, in other words, and I spent the next three years of my life in confusion and shame.
An interesting read...
This article presents a very interesting viewpoint, and it's surprising that it is both so rare, and has taken so much time for a hetero man to candidly speak of his attraction to trans women.
The problem here is that we are so frequently leery of people who might love us precisely because we are a male-female mixture. There is no doubt that a group we could call "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s" exists, but I frequently wonder quite who we are throwing into this group. Are these men any less valid than men who are attracted to redheads or fat women? I'm not standing up for them per sé, but I am questioning whether we overly reject such men because they couldn't possibly want to love us because of our mixture. Perhaps if we embraced men with this interest we might be surprised at what we find. Of course some are creeps, but creeps come in every size, shape and orientation.
I have not particularly made myself available for dating since I started my transition, but during this time I have had two relevant experiences. One was a man who had been married, and had a troubled transgender girlfriend at one point. I confess that I was leery of him precisely for the reasons that most of us cite, and that we want men to love us because of something other than our male genitals encapsulated within a female.
The other is the brother-in-law of one of my girlfriends; we'd met a year before my transition when I was presenting as gay. We went for dinner some months into my transition and at one point he became visibly nervous and blurted out "I find you incredibly attractive and want to sleep with you." It took him exceptional courage to say this, and we see each other from time to time since there is chemistry on several levels. On his phone he has videos of ahem, ->-bleeped-<-s - it's what turns him on. Sometimes I wonder whether he is ultimately heading in a gay direction and that I am a convenient middle ground, but he recently said he wanted to be the first man to try my vagina. So, how do I categorise him? Pervert, ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-, or just a normal guy whose sexual interests make him want me. If I believe that I'm normal, is there any reason to think that he is any different?
Just some musings...
Julia
I wonder though... the author of this articles starts by saying he is attracted to women. So in a sense he is splitting hairs. Maybe he should just say "I like women, and that includes transwomen"...
I need to be careful here.
Some men like women who are strong, understanding of the male perspective and not in anyway afraid of them in any aspect of life.
But still feminine and a partner.
Such women are rare, but possibly more common among transwomen, again I need to be careful but possibly the more mature transwoman has an advantage in that respect due to socialization?
I'll leave it there I think
That's an interesting thought/theory. I know that there are a lot of strong cis women out there... they can sometimes find it hard to get a male partner and some say it is because men are afraid of strong women. In the scenario you propose though it might be because they lack a male perspective/socialisation... I can see how that might cause a difference in the way they express their strength. In terms of the way a man responds to a strong female partner with/without a male socialisation that's some pretty complicated psychological stuff!!
:eusa_think:
I agree with Cindy, most of the ones that show interest seem to be outdoor types and I am definitely an out door person with her own bass boat and tractor.
Well Pat, where I live, any man who knew I had a boat and a tractor would run a mile, in about 5 seconds... Perhaps it's also a cultural thing - the USA and Aussie are both sporty outdoor countries. In European cities you can't park a boat so easily ;-)
The only issue I have with it is when the attraction is merely physical, but then, I've never had time for people who seem me only as a sex object, even before I realized I was trans. Someone who loves me for me and considers trans a delightful addition to the package, that I'm 100% behind.
I knew a woman on-line who was very attracted to me even though I'm married and I valued her friendship. Finally I told her I'm trans hoping she'd back off a little but not run away. She was delighted. Unfortunately, months later we lost touch. It was nice to have someone who accepted me unconditionally....
...Actually, I have a lot of that, but not with people I see frequently.
Hate to upset the image, I wouldn't know the front end of a boat from the back, I lay on the deck drinking champagne. as for outdoor camping stuff, been there done that, 5 star with room service is how I go!
Quote from: Dee Walker on March 15, 2015, 07:47:15 AM
The only issue I have with it is when the attraction is merely physical, but then, I've never had time for people who seem me only as a sex object, even before I realized I was trans. Someone who loves me for me and considers trans a delightful addition to the package, that I'm 100% behind.
I knew a woman on-line who was very attracted to me even though I'm married and I valued her friendship. Finally I told her I'm trans hoping she'd back off a little but not run away. She was delighted. Unfortunately, months later we lost touch. It was nice to have someone who accepted me unconditionally....
...Actually, I have a lot of that, but not with people I see frequently.
Again being careful, my relationship is based on intellect that was how we met. The physical was much later, and though nice, is not the important part. The trust, talk and sharing is the focus for me. But I'm odd and im use to that?
Quote from: Cindy on March 15, 2015, 07:53:08 AM
5 star with room service is how I go!
Attagirl! See you in Paris :D
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on March 15, 2015, 03:51:27 AM
This article presents a very interesting viewpoint, and it's surprising that it is both so rare, and has taken so much time for a hetero man to candidly speak of his attraction to trans women.
The problem here is that we are so frequently leery of people who might love us precisely because we are a male-female mixture. There is no doubt that a group we could call "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s" exists, but I frequently wonder quite who we are throwing into this group. Are these men any less valid than men who are attracted to redheads or fat women? I'm not standing up for them per sé, but I am questioning whether we overly reject such men because they couldn't possibly want to love us because of our mixture. Perhaps if we embraced men with this interest we might be surprised at what we find. Of course some are creeps, but creeps come in every size, shape and orientation.
I have not particularly made myself available for dating since I started my transition, but during this time I have had two relevant experiences. One was a man who had been married, and had a troubled transgender girlfriend at one point. I confess that I was leery of him precisely for the reasons that most of us cite, and that we want men to love us because of something other than our male genitals encapsulated within a female.
The other is the brother-in-law of one of my girlfriends; we'd met a year before my transition when I was presenting as gay. We went for dinner some months into my transition and at one point he became visibly nervous and blurted out "I find you incredibly attractive and want to sleep with you." It took him exceptional courage to say this, and we see each other from time to time since there is chemistry on several levels. On his phone he has videos of ahem, ->-bleeped-<-s - it's what turns him on. Sometimes I wonder whether he is ultimately heading in a gay direction and that I am a convenient middle ground, but he recently said he wanted to be the first man to try my vagina. So, how do I categorise him? Pervert, ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-, or just a normal guy whose sexual interests make him want me. If I believe that I'm normal, is there any reason to think that he is any different?
Just some musings...
Julia
Right there. We claim the right to exist anywhere we like on the gender spectrum, then turn around and tell others they don't have the right to seek out people from anywhere on the spectrum. It's not right.
Quote from: Cindy on March 15, 2015, 04:22:07 AM
I need to be careful here.
Some men like women who are strong, understanding of the male perspective and not in anyway afraid of them in any aspect of life.
But still feminine and a partner.
Such women are rare, but possibly more common among transwomen, again I need to be careful but possibly the more mature transwoman has an advantage in that respect due to socialization?
I'll leave it there I think
That's me, you could have just said Devlyn and saved yourself a bunch of typing! ;D
Ahh but just got off the phone with my man. Yep my man. I'm the strong one and feeling mushy. That is female privilge.
Go figure
If I am a trans women and I am attracted to trans women, what does that make me? Lesbian? I always joked I was a lesbian... hmmm.
-Jade
:-*
Quote from: Jade_404 on March 15, 2015, 09:05:20 AM
If I am a trans women and I am attracted to trans women, what does that make me? Lesbian? I always joked I was a lesbian... hmmm.
-Jade
:-*
I've actually heard the word "transbian" for a trans woman who prefers romance with another trans woman.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 15, 2015, 09:23:10 AM
I've actually heard the word "transbian" for a trans woman who prefers romance with another trans woman.
Ahh! transbian! Cool. Sounds fun ;)
-Jade
:-*
Quote from: Cindy on March 15, 2015, 08:01:03 AM
Again being careful, my relationship is based on intellect that was how we met. The physical was much later, and though nice, is not the important part. The trust, talk and sharing is the focus for me. But I'm odd and im use to that?
100% agreement, Cindy!
I am loving this thread! This strikes a chord with me, as this falls along the lines of conversations I have with my boyfriend frequently. We've been together about 3 years now, and we have addressed the "attracted" vs. "->-bleeped-<-" dichotomy many times.
I once read a comment from a trans-attracted man on another blog, and it was so succinct that I copied it and I share it with others from time to time. This is one of those times.
* * * * *
T-girls are infinitely unique and blessed/cursed in that they simultaneously live in two different worlds; and at the very least, they should be picking up a couple of hazardous duty paychecks: one from Mars and one from Venus. It's impossible (for me, at least) to have less than complete admiration for them, on this point alone. They can in good measure understand both men and women better than either group can understand themselves vis-a-vis how they view the OTHER sex. They can, among many other things, understand the intensity and frequency of the male libido and at the same time feel the emotional poetry of lovemaking from a woman's perspective. With that mindset, who could ever better love you, male or female? This specific example can readily be generalized to near all-plus reasons for a relationship with a t-girl.
What remains to be said is more personal. T-girls, it seems to me, are almost always caught in fighting a two front war on more than a few levels: the personal, utterly individual drive of their own "spiritual DNA" versus the cogwheel driven demands of " 'cause-we-say-so" social norms; the mind/soul gender imperatives versus the constraints of the it's-here-so-deal-with-it physical body; and surviving versus Living. To me, norm-ers' tend to define "living" with a lower case L, which is tantamount to a plug-and-play existence: you show up (however incorrectly packaged); you're plugged in; you run your life according to some faceless program somewhere; and then you're more or less disposed of. T-girls, on the other hand, innately want Life with an upper case L, certainly not always in the extreme, but surely with intensely enviable zeal, whether tacit or explicit. In a sense, this makes them rule breakers. An' come on, guys. If you're the least bit honest with yourself, you know somewhere inside that you WANT to be with at least a quasi-rebel. T-girls embody this, although they may hurt (and be hurt) for it at times. This has enormous appeal for us fringe dwellers. A T-girl is a very subtle, most sublime, and wonderfully beautiful way of giving clockwork society the finger. Love and admire her. Tell norm-ers to kiss it.
Last but by no means least: T-girl beauty. If I said it had nothing to do with my perception of the T-girl world, you'd know I was a damned liar. Is it all consuming? No, but HOW they "get there" is almost breathtakingly arresting. Most anyone can do lower case art: write a rhyming poem in near perfect iambic pentameter; paint a picture of a bowl of fruit; or mold a coffee cup shaped pencil holder from clay. Upper case Art, however, is much more rare. Upper case A Art will - by its very nature - move you in a manner you don't fully understand (yet) and cause you to burn the bridge you came over to experience it. Examples could be the Shakespearean sonnets, the statue of David, or the Mona Lisa, et al. But these suffer from the Artist and the Object de'Art being forever separated by time. Also, Artist and Art object were separate physically. Artist effected change on something distinct from himself. In my universe, The Crying Game is Art. It forever changed me. It caused me to burn my bridge and then thank God for the lighter. Likewise, T-girls are Art, inside and out, but supremely different in that they are Living Art. In them there is no separation of Artist and Art object: they are one and the same. A T-girl - in the foxhole of life - manages to take the raw diamond she is and by her own gifted hand and mind transform herself into the faceted diamond that radiates light in all directions. Imagine then, the soul-stealing privilege of making love to Living Art. It exists in no one but a T-girl. THAT is why I would love a T-girl.
Like the article does point out I think we need to be careful not to lump all men that like trans women into the "->-bleeped-<-" category, in this sense I'm using the word "->-bleeped-<-" for a guy that seeks sexual relations with a pre-op trans woman and completely objectifies her.
More than once have I gone out dancing or for a night out and had guys start rubbing their half erect genitals against me, no woman on the face of this planet likes this sort of thing and it can leave a bit on a bad taste in your mouth (absolutely no pun intended).
For me a good test is to see what they would feel about me having my SRS operation, a guy that would want to stick around after the operation is someone I'd date, a guy who would not is in my opinion someone who objectifies me but I know this is a contested point.
This was almost a nice story until it got to the "confusion and shame" part. The writer demonstrates a long observed characteristic of the human personality by which we experience a certain degree of seemingly conflicting duality of desires regarding sex. Researchers have even observed gay-hating right wing males who experience homosexual desires at certain moments of sexual arousal. In fact the phenomenon seems to be most pronounced among persons in more conservative and restrictive groups. The solution, of course, is to develop self-acceptance regarding your sexuality and come to appreciate the range of your desires.
This fellow's problem wasn't his sexual desires, but his self-condemnation for having them. Toward the end he seems to have realized this.