Discussion time! (for both ftm's and mtf's) I was thinking lately about the causes of transsexualism. Wikipedia lists these ones: genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure (along with psychological theories, but those are more unlikely imo because there are transgender kids as young as three years old). Which of these do you think is more likely to be the cause? When do you think scientists will find the cause? And once they do, do you think there is a cure? That would mean no more people like us who have to go through so much to be ourselves, but sadly it will probably take many years to find the cure. What would be your guess? In fifty years time, next century...?
So to sum up, these are the initial questions of this debate:
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?
Discuss and have fun everyone!
EDIT: By "cure" I mean an actual cure to transsexualism, not a treatment like transitioning once you're already transgender. I mean before babies are born, a way to make it impossible for a child to be born with transsexualism (I mean as a birth defect / medical condition, the people who don't think it is can just answer "no" to the third question I guess!).
I think there's many causes, it depends on the person affected.
Cure -- depends on your definition of what a cure is. Some magical pill? No. . . at least not anytime soon. Transitioning and being happy? Could be considered a cure by some.
Though "cure" makes it seem like being trans is wrong, like it's a disease. I guess it depends on the cause, but I don't consider my identity as being a disease, so I don't need any cure.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
There is no question in my mind that it happens during pregnancy. DES babies were not genetically predisposed to be transgender. They got that way because of chemical conditions in the mother's body.
However, I believe it's possible that there may be genetic factors at play as well. I've often wondered whether our ability to ignore being trans into middle age (while we have a chance to procreate) is a genetic adaptation passed down from our ancestors who were able to reproduce because of it.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
Won't be long. They'll be able to rule out genetic factors by looking at relative studies. They've already proven there are physiological differences, so they can't blame it on psychology.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
No. Would require rewiring our brains.
However, it already is
treatable. By transitioning and living as our true gender.
I'm just going to jump into the cure part.
It isn't the transgender that needs "curing " it is society's intolerance and bigotry that needs to be cured.
There are a lot of theories as to why we are born with our bodies disagreeing with our minds as far as our genders. To change that, research that was repeatable would have to be done, and research takes money. Since there is so much misinformation and prejudice against transgenders, they are not likely to get the grants for research.
I don't see any cures in our lifetimes. I'd be satisfied just to be taken off the books as a mental illness.
part of the problem has to do with people's fear of things they don't understand. We are both that and for some people a sin against God. That is always dangerous territory.
having a fool proof way of telling if a three year old just has a good imagination or is truly a transgender would be nice. That would mean getting at the problem prior to puberty.
sam1234
I find the word "curable" somehow offensive. I AIN'T SICK
Let's not resort to name calling please
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
Watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erexuu8PTo8)
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
It already has been proven (see (1) above)
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
No. It is part of me. To "cure" it would remove part of me and destory the identity that makes me who I am. It would be euthanasia, not a cure. (see next answer)
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PMEDIT: By "cure" I mean an actual cure to transsexualism, not a treatment like transitioning once you're already transgender. I mean before babies are born, a way to make it impossible for a child to be born with transsexualism
Your "cure" would just be another form of aborting undesirable babies. Where does it stop? Start with transsexuals and then deal with other "defects"? Eliminate colour blindness or presdispositions to cancer or those who will develop other problems in life?
Maybe transsexualism is not so bad after all.... :o
Quote1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
Just like cancer, there may be many reasons. I don't think that transgender individuals necessarily have exactly the same problem, issue, or outstanding feature, depending on how you look at it. When I look at nature, I see many cooperative societies. Ants and bees are great examples. They have drones. Why don't the drones have sexual characteristics? They're not needed. Could our existence be nature's way of culling the herd? Or is there a great genetic trait with a hugely positive benefit to our species in there that's just waiting to pop out with the next transgender baby. I read a science fiction book last year where people living off earth in the low gravities of the moons and planets in our solar system had both sexes, a primary and secondary so that when two people got together, they could both produce a child. Nature's way of protecting the species. Or we could just be genetic deviations. Or mom took drugs. Or who knows what. But I can guarantee a shrink I had to see that it DOES NOT involve a sexual fascination with doorknobs.
Quote2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
To find a cause for anything, you need evidence, a working theory, and most of all, lots of money to do the research. Additionally, they will need deceased trans people to direct. I don't think any of these things have any priority anywhere. Gays and Lesbians have much better pull than we do and research in that area is just getting off the ground. I can tell you this though, I used to raise pigeons. I had one that would let the other cocks mount him but once a year he mated with a hen. Go figure.
Quote3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
It already is. I'm cured. I transitioned. In fact, being trans was the only "mental illness" that could be cured by surgery.
Quote4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?
I know what you are asking here and the previous question. Quite honestly, we'll be growing children in tanks like in Huxley's Brave New World before we'll find out why it happens or if anyone cares to prevent it. Certainly, I would much preferred to have been born female to begin with. But what if they had fixed me to be a boy in the womb? Would I not still be in the same situation? I think I would have become a completely different individual. And I like who I am. It has been a hard life but a very rich life. I am thankful for it. No, I don't think cures will happen in the womb. I truly believe we will move towards making it easier for those of us to transition and change socially to be more accepting. I think that is where we are headed.
Besides the DES effect its been known to exist for many centuries. There for the cause is nature it self. Kind of like 1 species dies yet another 1000 are new ones in a year. Not exactly sure on the number it was about insects and It could have been more like 1 dies 30 000 new species. Basically nature in general is evolving and part of that for humans (I am sure other species) is transexualism.
Proof that it really does exist just have to look in the past to see many references.
As for (I know what your mean) cure there will be none. Same thing for the common cold. If we did not have the common cold to keep our immune system exercised then anything else might just kill us. So to cure the common cold is actually not a good idea much like finding a cure for transexualim.
I do admit I am pre everything well more accepting and waiting etc. The big but to cure the trans in me is not a cure but rather either complete brainwashing and/or killing whom I really am. As for societal perceptions that's the one thing that needs a cure.
Nailed a few times already. "Cure" is absolutely the wrong way to think about this, because ->-bleeped-<- is not a defect or illness. The "treatment" is only considered psychological treatment because society is so negative toward deviation from its "ideal" gender norms that facing transition can be traumatic. For many of us, those who do not require medical treatment to change our bodies, being accepted when we express our identified gender would be the beginning and end of it. If it weren't frowned upon, discriminated against, and worse by society at large, there would be nothing left to even talk about, any more than we would worry about a cis girl behaving "like a girl."
For those of us, myself included, who do have a problem with our birth anatomy and endogenous sex hormones, a medical treatment is necessary. Parts are invasive (e.g., GRS), parts are not (e.g., HRT). Assuming that this is truly intrinsic and not an effect of the intense transphobia in society, even in an ideal world a treatment would be necessary. IMO, the "cure" you are talking about is more effective GRS---functional gonads (at least in terms of hormone production), easier surgical procedures, etc.
It doesn't matter to me why I am transsexual. I just am, and the underlying reason is moot. Even if the cause was pinpointed, it would change nothing. The only thing I can do is move forward and live each day to the fullest. Once your brain is formed, the die is cast, so I'm not holding out for a "cure". I'm just going to take my HRT, wear whatever I want and give the haters along the way my well-manicured middle finger.
The word cure implies a lot here, almost all negative.
The rigid gender binary is a western Judeo-Christian concept and it is an aberration and is not in line with modern biological science, which sees both sex and gender as spectrums.
However "curing" transsexualism appears to imply that we should be either purely male or purely female, thus attempting to reinforce a cultural norm that is scientifically false and which directly harms people.
The medical evidence is accumulating rapidly that neurobiological causes are the root of being transsexual, with perhaps some secondary genetic factors playing a role.
So far as we know, once the white matter structures in the brain are formed, they cannot be changed without killing the patient, so "curing" transsexualism (aside from transition) also implies killing the patient.
I completely doubt whether any "cure" for transsexualism will ever be attempted for the above reason. However, I do believe that transitional related therapies will continue to improve, including eventually stem cell therapies and advanced tissue engineering therapies that will help individuals adapt their existing bodies more fully to their inner sense of gender.
For example, US Department of Defense is sponsoring research to grow penises and testicles for soldiers who lost them in war time. It should be a short step from that position to growing a penis and testicles for an FTM. Likewise, lab grown vaginas are being transplanted under very experimental and test cases and working. This too is not yet a generally available therapy but might be within a decade.
Womb transplants are occurring. Ovary and testicle generation is being worked on.
Someday a trans person will transition and when they come out the other side, they will be able to father a child (FTM) or conceive and bear a child (MTF).
At that point, who needs a "cure" for transsexualism when it involves completely rewiring someone's brain (and maybe erasing who they are) versus allowing them to become the human being they perceive themselves to be?
Thus in my opinion there will never be a "cure" but there will be vastly improved therapies that allow individuals to have full and complete lives in the gender with which they identify.
Quotewhen it involves completely rewiring someone's brain (and maybe erasing who they are)
This is not what I meant by cure, and I completely disagree with it! It would indeed be like erasing who we are.
Hmm I don't think I explained myself very well? I think people are misunderstanding me here, I do agree with what you guys are saying about society needing to be less bigoted and accepting transgender people etc. But I'm not talking about that, I'm not talking about us already transgenders, I'm talking about the babies who will be born transgender, and when that is going to stop. I mean a cure to future unborn transgender children, not us. Let's please think of future generations for a second rather than focus on ourselves all the time. We are past any cure anyway, what we can do is what you guys are saying, get treatment, HRT + GRS, a more liberal society etc. But I'm not talking about that. It's a question directed to people who think transsexualism is like any other birth defect or birth condition (like down syndrome, heart/body defects, autism etc.) that someday will probably be curable. How is this offensive? I'm not saying there's something wrong or bad about us, just like there is nothing wrong with an autistic person, but that doesn't negate the fact that these are problems, actual physical problems - regardless if it bothers you or not. (And since when is being physically/mentally sick an offense anyway?)
Of course, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, we just don't know, that's why I'm saying the cure questions are only for the people who believe it IS a condition in the first place. People who think it's just a way of identifying oneself don't need to answer that question or can just say "no". Though it's hard for me to imagine that line of thinking, I mean why then be born with the wrong body if you are a man/woman if there is no birth condition? It's not like the whole world could suddenly be born transgender and it would be the most normal thing lol, imagine everybody physically born men identifying as female and vice-versa, it makes no sense (society views aside). Are all humans forever meant to ignore their newborn's sex until they are 5 and can spell out for themselves how they identify before naming them? It's only natural for parents to think of their physically male baby to also be male mentally. And it's not even just that, but think what we've all been through, society aside. Being transgender is a painful experience, we hate our bodies, our names, we have to have surgeries (that have a small but existent risk of death), change legal papers, go on hormones and visit doctors and psychotherapists etc. etc. and all of this just to be who we already are inside.
Wouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with? And here is my question, wouldn't we want for future generations to not need to go through all this (which doesn't even include the society-related problems), and instead be already born in their real genders? I don't see how finding a cure someday might be a bad thing. For the would-be transgender babies at least it would not be. If I were any of those future babies I would certainly wish I had no chance of being born transgender due to it having already been cured in the past. Because I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't wish ->-bleeped-<- on anyone, not even my worst enemies (not that I have enemies xD). But this is all my own personal opinion only, feel free to disagree guys! That is what debates are for lol, if we all agreed then what would be the point hahah. Hope I clarified better what I meant by cure! Now that I think we all understand each other let the discussion begin lol, I won't be able to answer till late tomorrow though. See ya! And thanks for all the answers! It's really nice to see other people's opinions on this.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
So to sum up, these are the initial questions of this debate:
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?
1. What is the cause? I don't know and I don't care. It doesn't matter to me.
2. When will the cause be proven? Never. In the grand scheme of human existence we are small potatoes. Besides we have a cure right now, right? Or am I missing something?
3. When will it be curable? I cured it myself with my transition and surgery. I am one happy camper now.
4. When will it be curable? It has been for 50-60 years now.
Everything else about brain shapes, and prenatal hormones, bad parenting, lousy weather or "there's something in the water" are nonsensical arguments. I could just as easily say it is caused by invisible unicorns.
The fact is this. I am who I am. I do not need to be cured of anything, because there is nothing wrong with me. I righted a wrong that I always knew about myself. TSism doesn't need a cure, society does.
Wow, this thread is hot :D
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
Wouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with?
This works, even in simplistic theory, only for a fraction of the transgender spectrum (i.e., the transsexual folks who are the only ones who can really be thought of as the "wrong" gender).
But, no, absolutely not, it would not be "better" except in a few specific ways.
People along the nonbinary spectrum don't have the "wrong" gender at all. They simply don't line up with the boxes on the forms. This is a defect of the boxes, not the people. Many people love being the way they are.
Even as a pretty binary-feeling transsexual (well, from this side; we'll see where I wind up post-transition I guess), I am happy with the experiences my life has given me. I am not upset that I was born with the body I was.
So, no, even with your clarifications, I don't think you're any warmer. What you are suggesting is "better" only if you accept that the simple, male/female penis/vagina options are "better" than the transgender spectrum.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
This is not what I meant by cure, ..... I'm talking about the babies who will be born transgender, and when that is going to stop. I mean a cure to future unborn transgender children, not us.
Eugenics? Only those "fit" to breed should be born? Who decides what is a "preventable defect"?
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM(And since when is being physically/mentally sick an offense anyway?)
Perhaps when dealing with extreme religious zealots and the sort of idiot that passes Bathroom Bills. And TERFs, never forget the TERFs
Wow, there are some seriously thoughtful responses on here! Good conversation starter, Manny! Guess I'll add my two cents (or is it one because of my shortlived experience with being trans? :P)
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
Honestly I'm sure we'll pinpoint it some day, but my mother has always had high testosterone levels, and I doubt that stopped when I was developing in her womb. I'm almost positive, for me, that this at least contributed to my GD.
2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
Soon, no doubt. If we don't have it down in the next ten years I'll be shocked.
3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
Honestly I don't know if I even want it to be cured... we're all different in our own right, who's to say that living with GD can't be a positive and enlightening experience? We're fully functioning, capable of the same thoughts and emotions as anyone else, and are by no means inherently barred from living a fulfilling existence, same as anyone else. If anything, I think the added perspective and experience we gain would be a shame to "cure." But really, that's just my opinion. Also, "cure" makes us sound sick. I don't think I'm sick, nor do I think any of the wonderful people I've encountered on these forums are, either.
4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?
Well... I don't think they'll "cure" it in my lifetime if at all; first they'd have to establish a direct cause, which will definitely take some time, and then finetuning a "cure" will be another lengthy process entirely.
Thanks for provoking some thought! Always good to clear off the cobwebs in my dusty ol' head.
I'm really disappointed to see so many people picking apart an innocent question just looking for reasons to be up in arms about something.
Manny, I understand what you meant about a "cure" and preventing future generations from being transgender. Gender dysphoria isn't something I would wish on anyone and even if society does catch up and become completely accepting we still have to experience the pain of not being able to tolerate our own bodies and other struggles like getting surgeries to transition.
I believe that gender is hard wired to the brain and that things such as hormone fluctuations in the womb can cause the brain to develop as one gender while the body develops as another. There already is some scientific evidence to support this so hopefully in maybe 5 to 10 years there will be more research to back this up.
That being said, I don't think there ever will be a way to prevent ->-bleeped-<- because gender is on a spectrum. This is the same reason autism can't be "cured" and why its cause is also still unknown. Both are simply labels for different learning styles, different ways of interacting socially, different forms of expression, etc. that deviate from the norm. The only difference is that in the case of transgender people it's our physical bodies that prevent us from functioning within the norms of our gender.
Manny, being transgender is a birth condition, just as the autism spectrum, deafness, and being a little person can be a birth condition. Many of these are also communities. Many of these communities find the concept of "correcting" their condition in the womb offensive. I don't know if we're that kind of community yet, but perhaps we should be. Deep down I don't quite see myself as a woman but as a different type of human who is most similar to a woman than a man. I feel that we, collectively, have something special to contribute to the human condition. Would I wish this upon others? No. Nor do I consider it a horrible thing to be. Were society more enlightened our condition would be no more a burden than heterochromia or albinism. The first time I met with my therapist she recommended a book on the topic, and I recommend it to you, "Far from the Tree" by Andrew Solomon.
As to a cure? There's been a small steady incidence of ->-bleeped-<- as far back as we are aware. In the previous century, following the growth of medicine and the hubris of it's practitioners that incidence has increased. Surely we should find out what we, as a race, are doing to make ->-bleeped-<- more common. The question, like all such, is if the tradeoff is worth what's gained. I'm not sure that question can be answered. If it can't can we afford the hubris to end what we don't fully understand?
My biggest fear is that most of the solutions in such cases tend to be to develop a test in the womb and then to abort the child if the answer doesn't please the parents.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
1. What do you think is the cause of transsexualism?
Personally, I believe there is a genetic link, caused either by chemical interference or genetic drift of some type. The causal reason and what happens differs, but there have been intersex and "eunuch" individuals throughout recorded history. (Pope Joan passed as a fat guy until she gave birth, Josephus mentions eunuchs being kept out of the temple, indications of it in theatrical light such as cross dressing for plays, castrati for singing etc, etc.)
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM2. When do you think the cause will be scientifically discovered/proofed?
It is scientifically prooved...
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM3. Do you think transsexualism will become curable?
I don't like the word cure because it connotes that I am a broken person who NEEDS to be fixed. Aside from my personal choice, there really is nothing about me that NEEDS to be cured for me to live. Being trans does not threaten my life, at least not from the point of nature. Being trans threatens my life because others are afraid and will threaten it for me. Cure them, thanks.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM4. If so, when do you think it will be curable?
Moot point.
Cured? You talk as though we're sick...I'm a bit offended.
OK People.
Manny explained their description of 'cure'. People have said they don't need curing and that we are not sick. Let's not take stuff out of context.'
If you want the thread to continue let us have respectful and thoughtful comment.
If not I will lock it and it is no ones fault except yours!
Cindy
Hi, Manny. The problem I have with the concept of "curing" future babies of gender dysphoria is this: Let's say they find the root cause of gender dysphoria in the womb. There will be some time before a cure/treatment will be found. Now you're in an area of eugenics. If you're told your baby will be transgender and nothing can be done until the baby is born, do you still have the child? The same issue has been discussed with babies with down syndrome and other conditions. It's an uncomfortable issue, especially for this community.
Plus, I feel until as a society we become tolerant of trans people, the "cure" would be to the fix the brain, not the body.
It's an interesting idea, but definitely a sore one for us.
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
Wouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with?
No. No. Nonononononononononono.
It might be easier on some of us, but transgender people give a lot to our culture, not just for our contributions, but also to help the rest of the world understand what their gender actually means.
It would be be a much lesser world if everyone were cis.
Quote from: ChiGirl on March 19, 2015, 05:47:29 AM
Let's say they find the root cause of gender dysphoria in the womb.
....
If you're told your baby will be transgender and nothing can be done until the baby is born, do you still have the child?
Indeed, but one of the issues is that horrible, slippery, near meaningless word "transgender". It confuses the issue. Most
transgender people have few issues with their condition. Most seem to cope with it very well and if you consider that various statistics say that 5% or so of men privately crossdress then you can see the size of the population sample we are talking about.
Transexuals on the other hand are frequently distressed.
Those of us who, generally speaking, cannot cope are less than 1% of the population and I have seen figures as low as 0.01% but no one really knows except that it a small number. In the UK (population 63 million) there have been something less than 10,000 GRS operations over the last 20 years or so which is about 0.02% of the population.
It is obvious from the figures that "curing" the
transgender population is pointless as 5% of people do not seem to be mentally or socially distressed by being their birth gender. I think we would notice that many having problems.
It seems well established that transsexualism occurs in the womb due to abnormal hormone levels but I have no idea about other transgender conditions as there does not seem to be the same level of research into them. Since transexualism occurs in months 4 and 5 of development the baby will be well developed and by the time you detect the problem the brain structures will be set and irreversible. That is why I cannot see there ever being a "cure".
Quote from: ChiGirl on March 19, 2015, 05:47:29 AM
Hi, Manny. The problem I have with the concept of "curing" future babies of gender dysphoria is this: Let's say they find the root cause of gender dysphoria in the womb. There will be some time before a cure/treatment will be found. Now you're in an area of eugenics. If you're told your baby will be transgender and nothing can be done until the baby is born, do you still have the child? The same issue has been discussed with babies with down syndrome and other conditions. It's an uncomfortable issue, especially for this community.
Plus, I feel until as a society we become tolerant of trans people, the "cure" would be to the fix the brain, not the body.
It's an interesting idea, but definitely a sore one for us.
I have to say, talking about what happens after/before birth with transgender kids actually sparked kind of a quirky thought that I felt I should mention: What if the "cure" would just be making sure that parent was open and supportive of their child's gender identity, and allowed them to fully explore what that means for them? The shock that comes with us coming out would certainly be diminished, and maybe being trans, as some people have expressed, wouldn't be such a weight on their shoulders. I agree with you, I don't like the idea of a "cure" either, but maybe a cultural "fix" in others might be possible if we, as a society, just accept that the gender-bodied child we see in the hospital might not always be the gender we assumed... that'd be good, right?
Quote from: AndrewB on March 19, 2015, 08:01:38 AM
I have to say, talking about what happens after/before birth with transgender kids actually sparked kind of a quirky thought that I felt I should mention: What if the "cure" would just be making sure that parent was open and supportive of their child's gender identity, and allowed them to fully explore what that means for them? The shock that comes with us coming out would certainly be diminished, and maybe being trans, as some people have expressed, wouldn't be such a weight on their shoulders. I agree with you, I don't like the idea of a "cure" either, but maybe a cultural "fix" in others might be possible if we, as a society, just accept that the gender-bodied child we see in the hospital might not always be the gender we assumed... that'd be good, right?
Yes. Fix the culture, love the person...
Lol guys this is supposed to be a fun discussion... no need to get so worked up! I don't understand why people are getting offended, it's like if blind people or depressed people etc. etc. got offended if someone had the opinion that they have a medical problem/condition. It makes no sense, you can love being blind and be happy with it but blindness is still a condition! Why be so rude to someone who understandably wonders if there will ever be a cure to blindness? ( = transsexualism) And guys, I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, I simply stated what I meant by cure and I explicitly said this is a question directed towards people who DO think it's a condition. If some of you don't think it is, that's fine! Just answer "no" to the third question or just don't answer that question, but why bring down the thread just because you disagree? People who think it is a condition have the right to at least talk about it don't you think? Or are we all forbidden to even CONSIDER having a physical problem? Are we really that close-minded guys that we can't even talk about it (especially when it's VERY likely that it IS a physical problem / birth defect, and it's also likely that at some point we'll find the cause and even a cure)?
Everyone who understood the questions and answered respectfully, thank you! Nice thoughts indeed. I'll discuss some of the points!
QuoteIf you're told your baby will be transgender and nothing can be done until the baby is born, do you still have the child? The same issue has been discussed with babies with down syndrome and other conditions. It's an uncomfortable issue, especially for this community.
That's an interesting question! Hmm I think each transgender and cisgender person will have their own answer to this, personally I think if this situation actually happened, parents should have the right to decide whether to have the baby or not, just like with down syndrome and other conditions. My own mother had an abortion because the son she was expecting had an illness and I think she had every right to do it. Though I don't think ->-bleeped-<- is nearly as bad as down syndrome so most people would probably have the babies anyway.
QuoteIt might be easier on some of us, but transgender people give a lot to our culture, not just for our contributions, but also to help the rest of the world understand what their gender actually means. It would be be a much lesser world if everyone were cis.
Could you expand on this? Gender means what it means, I don't think cis people don't understand the concept of gender or their own gender, they do get it and so do we, and I doubt we would lose much as a society if transgender people didn't exist. I should point out that by gender I mean the way humans identify, I'm not referring to gender expression / gender stereotypes or anything like that. I think cis-men can still be very feminine or gay or whatever without needing to be transgender to understand it or accept it.
People who said it has already been scientifically proofed, I don't think it's the case. Otherwise there would be an official cause, like; transsexualism is caused by X. But on wikipedia and other sites it says there are several "theories". I think what we need is an official, irrefutable theory, so that when talking about ->-bleeped-<-, we could say "transsexualism is caused by X. Period.". Once we find the cause then scientists will be able to investigate how we can actually prevent it. But so far we know very little about the causes. My gender therapist doesn't know the cause and says no one knows for sure so yeah, we don't know yet. Although I do agree that most likely it happens in the womb. Personally I'm very interested to find out what the actual cause is! I want all the details, even though I don't know a thing about science or medicine lol.
QuotePeople along the nonbinary spectrum don't have the "wrong" gender at all.
I've been wondering about non-binary people too, like are they non-binary for the same reason (cause) as transgender people? Or were they affected in a "mild" way and that's why they don't feel as strongly about their gender(s) as we do? Or maybe it's another cause entirely, or there isn't even a cause. I think many of them don't have gender dysphoria or suffer at all because of it so if there is no problem there is no cause and no cure. I'm not really sure about this though, I don't know much about non-binary genders / people.
QuoteQuite honestly, we'll be growing children in tanks like in Huxley's Brave New World before we'll find out why it happens or if anyone cares to prevent it.
Hmm well, it could be, but I don't think it's actually that far off. I'd say maybe in 20 years we'll get some answers, although a possible cure is probably much later to come, maybe in 50-100 years, so young people like me might get to see that day! Here's hoping (in my case)!
QuoteThanks for provoking some thought! Always good to clear off the cobwebs in my dusty ol' head.
Thanks man, this is why I made this thread in the first place, so we could reflect on this and discuss and get new ideas etc. There are some very interesting things mentioned here worth thinking about! Btw I hope you're right and the cause is found within 10 years!
Contravene, agree very much with your post! Though I do think autism will be curable someday, it's hard to imagine it being still a problem next century, with how quickly science and medicine are progressing. For instance we're very close to finding a real fix for Alzheimer's!
QuoteManny, being transgender is a birth condition, just as the autism spectrum, deafness, and being a little person can be a birth condition.
That's what I believe too and mentioned above! Thanks for the book recommendation btw!
QuoteMany of these communities find the concept of "correcting" their condition in the womb offensive.
Why? Why wouldn't they want to? If you have a condition that interferes with your life in such a major and often painful way, why not do something about it?
QuoteWere society more enlightened our condition would be no more a burden than heterochromia or albinism.
I disagree, as I mentioned in my last post, even if society was completely accepting, I think transgender people would still have many other problems that are way worse than simply having been born with white hair. And even if we didn't, why fix something that is not broken? Why be born male if you are a female and vice-versa? There is no point or logic to it.
I offer an example from the deaf community. There was recently a deaf couple whose child was also deaf. The family was deeply involved in their community when the cochlear implant became available the child jumped at the chance. This upset the parents even though they could understand their child wanting to hear the world for the first time. They were proud to be who they were, proud of their community and of the challenges they had overcome in life because of their unique perspective. The idea of changing someone before they can even know who they are removes some of the special perspective.
As hard as my life has been at times, and as hard as it may continue to be, it is the sum total of my experiences that make up who I am. I am happy to have what I do and would never turn back the clock.
I didn't mean to say that your idea of a cure was bad as far as demonizing it but rather that transexualism is a facet of nature.
I will use another example of nature to make you think of why well really its not a condition persay but rather a societal condition as perceiving it is wrong. Simply what makes a caterpillar turn into a moth or a butterfly and does it really matter.
Basically transsexuals happen to be a part of the populations that are different then the average population. Of course we want to fit into the normal population hence why we seek acceptance of who we really are by treatment to change what we feel is wrong to us. Yet as proven we also tend to have higher intelligence which suggests to me is that we are part of natural evolution. I make no argument that this is not fun to try and fit in both on how we look and the mental implications or even the societal struggles but if look at this from a perspective of an observer then maybe ridding transexualism in essence is bad for evolution.
In conclusion finding a cure to get rid of transexualism is moot it really is just part of evolution of course causing it with DES was bad and we have learned from that and stopped. I think the reason it feels so wrong to be called a cure is it really feels like it is wrong to be treated as the aberration of society when in reality like the American Indians actually did the opposite in that they embraced transexualim as a boon not a bane as it sits today. Not trying to be offensive but to try and rid what is deemed bad for the sake of being societal perception of bad is bad in itself is like something in history it reminds me of. Fuzzy on specifics but it was a poem about WWII first it was the jews then it was those who wore glasses then .... What I mean by that example is when is something we do not understand really bad and not something to be embraced. Really its the societal fear/perceptions that need to change. Much like in the world is flat you will fall over the edge. Well some said lets find out and low and behold they found north America and we learned that in fact the earth is not flat.
Sorry if any of this does seem offensive not my intent just looking into the past to show how fear of the unknown is demonized when it really shouldn't be. Thank you for provoking the thoughts:)
Quote from: Manny on March 19, 2015, 10:13:19 AM
And guys, I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, I simply stated what I meant by cure and I explicitly said this is a question directed towards people who DO think it's a condition. If some of you don't think it is, that's fine! Just answer "no" to the third question or just don't answer that question, but why bring down the thread just because you disagree? People who think it is a condition have the right to at least talk about it don't you think? Or are we all forbidden to even CONSIDER having a physical problem? Are we really that close-minded guys that we can't even talk about it (especially when it's VERY likely that it IS a physical problem / birth defect, and it's also likely that at some point we'll find the cause and even a cure)?
Manny, nobody is bringing down the thread, I have not seen many disrespectful responses. You asked a question and people disagreed. That's not being closed-minded. I'm sorry that you don't like the answers you are getting, but that's the nature of discussion.
Anyway, no matter how much you clarify, your question is predicated on the assumption that there is something wrong with transgender individuals. It has been made pretty clear here that a lot of us find your continued use of "cure" to be offensive (and the quote above seems to go to some length to throw in an unsubstantiated and offensive comment about birth defects). Words matter, that is very clear to the transgender community. I think you'll have a lot better luck finding the conversation you are trying to find if you find a more sensitive and neutral way to frame the discussion.
1 & 2 don't know, don't care
3 & 4 I've been in the process of being cured for almost 4 months now. Its amazing how effective it is too.
I think society is sick in that it doesn't accept people who's gender is nonconforming. There are other cultures/societies that accept this and gender noncomforming people are welcomed and even embraced.
--Jay
Quote from: AndreaLinda on March 18, 2015, 06:04:31 PM
I find the word "curable" somehow offensive. I AIN'T SICK
Let's not resort to name calling please
In India, the government has decided to that transgenders are a "third gender". That was in 2012.
I've been in touch with a untransitioned girl there. She says that transgenders are not well accepted and in some cases are physically abused.
To me, the thought of being called a third gender is demeaning. We are men and women, it just took some help to get our bodies to match our minds.
By the way, this is not a hit on India, just an example. It reminds me that those of us who live in countries where there is help available and prejudice is present but not overwhelming, are lucky. I'm not crazy about the thought of trying to experiment on embryos in any way. Using preborn people is not the answer.
Part of how society thinks of us is up to us. We need to educate the medical profession when they treat us, even if it causes some problems. The same with our families. How we come out to them makes a difference in how they react to the news. If we are confident and have researched our condition, perhaps our families will take it more seriously.
sam1234
The "cure" would be better biological interventions to change the body.
If by "cure" you mean eliminating dysphoria without changing the body, good luck on that. No, seriously, I mean good luck because you are going to need it.
causes are not one simple thing but studies are converging on the idea that the human brain is sexually dimorphous, and trans people physically have the brain structures of their percieved gender, making transgender-ness a kind of "invisible" intersex condition.
- Men have twice as many somatostatin neurons as women, yet trans women - even those who had not had oestrogen therapy - had the same amount as cis women (Kruijver et al., 2000). (http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564)
- In Luders et al. (2009), (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803) 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with oestrogen were studied via MRI, and were found to have significantly larger volume of grey matter in the right putamen compared to men.
- The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of male sex characteristics. Hare et al. (2009) (http://worthylab.tamu.edu/Courses_files/06_Hareetal_2009.pdf) found that MTF transsexuals had longer repeat lengths on the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.
as for "cures", you're obviously not going to get much traction for mucking around with the physical structures of one's brain. however, there is some exciting progress into medical technologies that some day might not only produce better surgical results for both mtfs and ftms, but erase our dependence on artificial hormones:
- 3d printed organs, for example (http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n8/full/nbt.2958.html)
-and though the technique is currently "not suited for" trans women, surely there's enough interest to further develop womb transplants (http://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/worlds-first-womb-transplant-mother-hopes-inspire-others-n219851).
the future looks good for us.
Just happen to read your reply a bit many actually a correction on albinism it is not just the color of hair. I happen to recall seeing an African child who needed some surgery and happen to get it in Canada (where I live) and he looked like a normal Caucasian. Just imagine that he was beat up on a normal basis for being that different in a way its like gid but a lot more obvious. Still goes to show that nature always has variations toward evolution. Was it fun for this child a big no should there be a cure to fix his white skin hmm no not really on that either. I do understand it would be nice to not have issues of this magnitude as you grow but another way to look at it is if there were none we would all be the same and not really human actually. Our uniqueness would be lost and our drive to be more would also be lost. I agree that It would be nice if no one grew older with no problems but at what point do we draw the line. Here is an historical way a culture dealt with a certain issue.
The Spartans for Greece were a war like tribe and in keeping with their highly warrior type culture the bred huge warriors that could dual wield a 2 handed sword. Yes that big. How did they do this well this is the barbaric part if a male child did not reach a certain height before the age of 16 they were killed. This of course is in distant past but shows in a way the cure was not exactly the nicest thing but it did happen to work. Was it right for them to do so as a society. In todays standards a big no but then it was unusual and harsh but did work as far as being right even for back then no not really but the society choose that. Once again it was society that made the choice not the individual and they disregarded the brain over brawn. In a sense the moral implications for a call it correction of transexualism is what is needed to allow a person to transition as they do today and as for stopping the DES there is the cure there to prevent humans messing with nature or evolution itself. Which the latter has been done.
I do understand from a neutral like perspective what you mean but what you suggest as a cure is actually beyond moral in a way. Ok not trying to be spiteful but giving a perspective to make you think on what you are trying to suggest. Hitlers whole drive to kill the jews was to purify the Aryan race. Was that a right thing well obviously not was it a cure in a way yes it would have done what was intended.
What I am really saying is we need to look into the past and learn from mistakes and grow as a human race. I don't mean to be hateful in any way and do respect your idea but its pretense in a sense is not really moral if you think of it in a broader scope. As some have said what needs work done is societal changes for a more accepting environment which I think is starting not exactly there yet but at least it is starting.
QuoteWouldn't it be much easier, safer and all around BETTER if we had just been born already the gender we identify with?
I think you mean sex, right?
ironically, I was born with a female body, but with atypical male parts. They can even test the mother to see if she's a carrier. But I was a freak occurrence.
Of course, with Intersex there is no way to predict gender or sexual identity.
Quote from: Jen72 on March 20, 2015, 08:52:03 AM
Just happen to read your reply a bit many actually a correction on albinism it is not just the color of hair. I happen to recall seeing an African child who needed some surgery and happen to get it in Canada (where I live) and he looked like a normal Caucasian. Just imagine that he was beat up on a normal basis for being that different in a way its like gid but a lot more obvious. Still goes to show that nature always has variations toward evolution. Was it fun for this child a big no should there be a cure to fix his white skin hmm no not really on that either. I do understand it would be nice to not have issues of this magnitude as you grow but another way to look at it is if there were none we would all be the same and not really human actually. Our uniqueness would be lost and our drive to be more would also be lost. I agree that It would be nice if no one grew older with no problems but at what point do we draw the line. Here is an historical way a culture dealt with a certain issue.
The Spartans for Greece were a war like tribe and in keeping with their highly warrior type culture the bred huge warriors that could dual wield a 2 handed sword. Yes that big. How did they do this well this is the barbaric part if a male child did not reach a certain height before the age of 16 they were killed. This of course is in distant past but shows in a way the cure was not exactly the nicest thing but it did happen to work. Was it right for them to do so as a society. In todays standards a big no but then it was unusual and harsh but did work as far as being right even for back then no not really but the society choose that. Once again it was society that made the choice not the individual and they disregarded the brain over brawn. In a sense the moral implications for a call it correction of transexualism is what is needed to allow a person to transition as they do today and as for stopping the DES there is the cure there to prevent humans messing with nature or evolution itself. Which the latter has been done.
I do understand from a neutral like perspective what you mean but what you suggest as a cure is actually beyond moral in a way. Ok not trying to be spiteful but giving a perspective to make you think on what you are trying to suggest. Hitlers whole drive to kill the jews was to purify the Aryan race. Was that a right thing well obviously not was it a cure in a way yes it would have done what was intended.
What I am really saying is we need to look into the past and learn from mistakes and grow as a human race. I don't mean to be hateful in any way and do respect your idea but its pretense in a sense is not really moral if you think of it in a broader scope. As some have said what needs work done is societal changes for a more accepting environment which I think is starting not exactly there yet but at least it is starting.
OCA Albinism, effects hair, eyes, and skin.
OA Albinism effect mostly the eyes but can still effect hair and skin, but not as badly.
Most of us OCA Albinos are legally blind.
Quote from: marikvulpina on March 20, 2015, 08:37:54 AM
causes are not one simple thing but studies are converging on the idea that the human brain is sexually dimorphous, and trans people physically have the brain structures of their percieved gender, making transgender-ness a kind of "invisible" intersex condition.
- Men have twice as many somatostatin neurons as women, yet trans women - even those who had not had oestrogen therapy - had the same amount as cis women (Kruijver et al., 2000). (http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564)
- In Luders et al. (2009), (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803) 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with oestrogen were studied via MRI, and were found to have significantly larger volume of grey matter in the right putamen compared to men.
- The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of male sex characteristics. Hare et al. (2009) (http://worthylab.tamu.edu/Courses_files/06_Hareetal_2009.pdf) found that MTF transsexuals had longer repeat lengths on the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.
as for "cures", you're obviously not going to get much traction for mucking around with the physical structures of one's brain. however, there is some exciting progress into medical technologies that some day might not only produce better surgical results for both mtfs and ftms, but erase our dependence on artificial hormones:
- 3d printed organs, for example (http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n8/full/nbt.2958.html)
-and though the technique is currently "not suited for" trans women, surely there's enough interest to further develop womb transplants (http://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/worlds-first-womb-transplant-mother-hopes-inspire-others-n219851).
the future looks good for us.
And even your description, good as it is, is oversimplified. Any one person can have any or all of those diversions. Many different situations can induce those changes, drugs, environmental conditions, spontaneous or inherited mutations, probably others. The genetic conditions that can cause our condition may be there for entirely different reasons. Sickle cell anemia is caused by a mutation that helps protect from malaria. Many northern European bloodlines have a mutation supplying immunity to AIDS even though, as far as anyone can tell AIDS didn't exist until the middle of the last century, certainly not all the way up there.
Manny, here's the problem I see, ok? And I'm not trying to be difficult here, just focusing on where the science is today.
Trans brains largely resemble, down in the white matter structures especially, the brains of the gender with which they identify. The degree to which they resemble the other gender's brain varies, as Dee Walker noted, but the variations are there. Tracking all these variations so early in pregnancy is hard!
What do I mean by that? Well, what's really difficult about this is most of these differences occur because of variations in hormone levels in utero between the 8th and 16th week of pregnancy. Many women are just fully realizing they are pregnant by the 5th or 6th week, and those critical 8 weeks, from the 8th to 16th week occur so early and so fast, that to counter hormonal imbalances in the womb would almost required 24/7 monitoring in a hospital setting with implants into the womb.
So, medically, I'm not sure how practical "stopping" a child from developing as transgender actually is. And note, we often cannot tell the sex of the baby clearly at 8 weeks either, so flooding the womb with a specific hormone only to learn the baby was the other sex, means we just created a transgender child.
I'm not trying to be flippant, just that I see no practical way, given what we know today about the neurobiological origins of being transsexual, in stopping this from happening.
But I do see very practical ways in which, as soon as a child is identified as trans, that the child is assisted in determining who they are, what steps need to be done medically, and how to give them a full and rich life.
That's why I mentioned stem cell science and tissue engineering. Someday transwomen will be given full female reproductive organs and can live as any other women should she wish, have children should she wish, etc. Likewise for transmen - full and complete functioning reproductive organs that allow them to become fathers, etc.
That's where I see things ultimately going, because the window that defines transsexuality appears to happen so early, and can be so hard to identify, that I'm not sure we can ever stop it from happening. But I do think we can have continually improving therapies for it.
I think the "cure" for being trans is partly society accepting this is a medical condition, and then having full and complete therapies to allow the child to develop as the gender with which they identify, supplemented by medical therapies to enhance and enable that gender role in society.
In sum, I don't see any practical way to stop a child from developing in the womb as trans. Consequently, it's therapies and social acceptance that become "the cure", at least to me. (That's my opinion and I realize others may feel differently and I respect those opinions, just differ with them.)
Quote from: AndreaLinda on March 18, 2015, 06:04:31 PM
I find the word "curable" somehow offensive. I AIN'T SICK
Agreed.
This begs the question.
If you are trans, we know many people who aren't happy with it. That said, once transitioned aren't you happy? I mean mostly. I'm not even fully transitioned and I'm very happy with what I have become and where I will go.
I would say the"cure" is already here. Transition.
I was actually just thinking about my transition journey today. Exactly 1 year ago I didn't even know I was transgender (Although there were indicators, I didn't question until May 2014). I was even transphobic.
I initially accepted my status as wishing I had been born XX. I had no plans to transition. Given the opportunity to magically flip Y to X I would have done it. I planned to keep everything to myself and just wear skirts in the evenings.
I eventually decided that wasn't good enough and opted to start transitioning. I started therapy hoping more than anything I would pass in the end. I would still happily accept a magical out.
Now here I am transitioning. Although I would like to pass in the end, I would be fine if I don't. I would take a magical surgery with no pain and instantly healed. (I find it hard to believe anyone would prefer a real surgery vs a magical one), but not a magical DNA swap. I am happy that I am transgender. I wouldn't want to be a cis-girl because its a huge part of who I am even if I didn't acknowledge it until more recently it was always there.
While I'm hardly "cured", I will be some day. In just 4 months on HRT alone its made a huge difference. I can't even begin to imagine what it will be like after the surgery.
Thanks forgot about the eyes too and if not mistaken can be red.
Quote from: White Rabbit on March 18, 2015, 05:25:18 PM
I'm just going to jump into the cure part.
It isn't the transgender that needs "curing " it is society's intolerance and bigotry that needs to be cured.
THIS!
As much as I HATE being trans, in many ways I feel I have benefited by it. As much as don't like to admit it... a net positive. And believe me, there have been some BIG negatives.
Without a doubt we are decades away from even beginning to thing about "ReWiring" a brain. Being "Trans" is not like being a Sociopath. The problem is the extreme transphobia that is omnipresent and... TBH, I believe for the most part Socially Acceptable with nary a token tisk-tisk... maybe when a disparaging word is uttered.
I have seen AMAZING societal changes towards us since the late 60's. Transphobia will never be erased. Just as any other prejudice, it is "The Human Condition". Different is "Bad". Biology (and DNA) is destiny. It takes a LOT of effort to affect change. Just look at what it takes for us on an individual basis, suffering, and in great distress, AKA Well Motivated, to make any sort of change. Being 'Trans' is something that extremely difficult for others to empathize with.
I am not the one who needs "A Cure".
I've seen and heard some Extremely Vocal "Cured" T's... I'll take my pain any day over the shear hatred and anger towards people in pain those "Cured" and presumed healthy(?) people are.
Not all transgenders that have had HRT and surgery are happy. You could say that about anyone, but I'm focusing on transgenders here. Not everyone has the money to finish all the want to have done, and that is an individual thing. Some people are perfectly happy with just passing while others need to go the whole way.
I don't think its the same thing as wishing you didn't have that zit on your forehead or wished you had blonde hair instead of brown. We have to experience the world at least in part through our bodies, and if that means being reminded that our minds and bodies don't match every time we go to the bathroom, change in a locker room, get out of the shower or want to have intimate relations with our partners, that can be a problem. Whether you choose to say it needs a cure, or a change or surgery, whatever, its still what it is.
I do agree with JoanneB in that there are some benefits from having had to deal with it. Knowing yourself, perhaps better than you would have otherwise, gaining inner strength and idependance. All those things are good and I'm sure a large number of people who are transgenders feel that way.
The people who are left with anger, isolation and deep sadness can't be ignored though. For them, it is a problem. Even with support and HRT and surgery, they still feel like they aren't whole. An F to M aquaintence of mine years ago was like that. He even had a wife who was very supportive and loving. No, he wasn't ill, but he wasn't well either.
Maybe there will be a way to avoid the mind disagreeing with the body some day, but in the meantime, the best we can do is try and support each other, take the good and try to deal with the bad.
sam1234
I know.... let's get all the mtf and ftm people together, let them pair up together and do brain transplants. They did it on TV!
Quote from: Manny on March 18, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
Discussion time! (for both ftm's and mtf's) I was thinking lately about the causes of transsexualism. Wikipedia lists these ones: genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure (along with psychological theories, but those are more unlikely imo because there are transgender kids as young as three years old). Which of these do you think is more likely to be the cause? When do you think scientists will find the cause?
They already have. Gender identity is something that's innate, and depends on physical differences that are built into the structure of your brain before you're born. As with everything else related to sexual development, whether you get the male version or the female version depends on whether there are androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) present or not during the critical period when the relevant development is taking place.
The critical period for genital development is 7 to 12 weeks after conception. If androgenic hormones are present during that time, you'll develop male genitals, otherwise your genitals develop as female. The critical period for brain development isn't as clearly defined, but (based on the animal research), doesn't start until after genital development is complete, and in primates, appears to be the second half of the pregnancy.
I think the main reason why this is in any way controversial, is that doctors and the pharma industry have inadvertently caused a large number of cases of transsexuality, perhaps even the majority. For decades, they've been giving artificial female hormones (estrogens and progestins) as treatments to prevent miscarriages and premature births. In adult men, both estrogens and progestins are highly effective at suppressing testosterone production, and the dosages typically being used in these miscarriage treatments are well beyond what will completely shut down T production in an adult man.
In the currently used treatments, the treatment starts between 16 and 21 weeks after conception and continues for the remainder of the pregnancy. This is after the critical period for genital development has already ended, but covers more or less the entire critical period for brain development. With the now discontinued drug DES, the treatment was usually started somewhat earlier in the pregnancy (sometimes as early as 7 weeks), which would explain why there appear to have been quite high rates of genital abnormalities associated with DES exposure, but not with the newer treatments. Either way though, the fetus ends up being exposed to high doses of testosterone-suppressing hormones during the critical period for brain development, which, in theory at least, should result in the brain developing as female instead of male.
Quote
And once they do, do you think there is a cure? That would mean no more people like us who have to go through so much to be ourselves, but sadly it will probably take many years to find the cure. What would be your guess? In fifty years time, next century...?
It's something that's built into the structure of your brain and is a part of who you are. Even if there were some way of magically rewiring your brain to change it from female into male, your personality, behaviour, emotions and everything else that defines who you are as a person would change too, so you'd no longer be the same person. All you can do really is find a way of dealing with it!
I know initially my mom was having a hard time (but not as bad as my sisters) dealing with it. She actually said something about wondering if it was her fault. I told her it didn't matter. I am who I am. I'm at a point where I love being me trans included. Being trans has helped me to see a world I never would have otherwise seen had I just been born female.
If we could be turned into somebody else with a pill, where would the person we were at first go? Erased from existence? If you made such a fundamental and encompassing change to yourself, could you really see the new person as yourself? I imagine the cis male version of myself, and while part of me is jealous of him and how many advantages he has in life, I cannot see him as myself. He is a different person altogether than I am.
If such a pill actually existed I would, being the trans woman version of myself, consider it an endangerment to my being. Truly.
Sorry for disappearing guys! Had my last exam yesterday and had to make a last effort, but I'm back! I'm reading all the replies now, THANKS EVERYONE for your inputs and opinions, I'm enjoying so much this discussion, even if I disagree with much of what's been said, I guess that's the fun of it hahah. Gonna finish reading the posts now that I have more time!
1. I don't know what the cause behind the bodily disconnection and the nonacceptance with the sex specific parts but for other aspects such as expression and presentation could be blamed at the socially constructed binary system of how the two genders should either be like this or like that.
2. I don't know about this that much and I don't know if I should care because what is done is done. Maybe ->-bleeped-<- should be considered as an intersex condition since it makes it more valid for some non-trans friendly/ close minded doctors.
3. I don't know nor do I have any hope for a cure but it's probably because doctors generally don't care enough about this condition or take it seriously like they do other birth defects. For me, a cure would have been to at least NOT go into puberty or some safe nonsurgical method that makes you grow into the sex (body) you identify as(right before secondary sexual characteristics form) despite not initially identifying with the incorrect genitalia you were born with. At least then there wouldn't be a necessity for undergoing multiple procedures.
As for preventing it from occurring before birth, I can't say anything about that since I am completely non binary and I would still be like the way I am had I been born cismale.
4. I don't know at the moment.
Quote from: makipu on March 25, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
3. I don't know nor do I have any hope for a cure but it's probably because doctors generally don't care enough about this condition or take it seriously like they do other birth defects. For me, a cure would have been to at least NOT go into puberty or some safe nonsurgical method that makes you grow into the sex (body) you identify as(right before secondary sexual characteristics form) despite not initially identifying with the incorrect genitalia you were born with. At least then there wouldn't be a necessity for undergoing multiple procedures.
My first thoughts that I can remember were those of not being right. I knew it. Oh, how I wish I hadn't gone through puberty. Now I see parents helping their kids get hormone blockers and paying for their surgeries and all that stuff. I am so thrilled to see that at least some of us are recognized early on and get the needed support to not have to endure the clumsy transition.
Cindi
Quote from: makipu on March 25, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
Maybe ->-bleeped-<- should be considered as an intersex condition since it makes it more valid for some non-trans friendly/ close minded doctors.
Making Transgender an Intersex condition, wouldn't make it any easier or valid. In fact, some of my brothers and sisters have a harder time trying to find doctors who know anything about Intersex stuff.
And if you thought, telling strangers what Trangender was, try explaining Intersex to people. I tell everyone I meat, and want to learn about it, and I still have people who don't understand.
My new and only endocrinologist, felt it was a moot point on a diagnosis since I'm transitioning already. But there in lies the problem. Just because I'm transitioning doesn't mean I still have medical problems. She told me, since she didn't really know much about it, she would most likely pass me off to a specialist. Instead. she just didn't do anything.
Sadly, I don't see doctors adding Transgender to the list of Intersex conditions anytime soon. I think the main reason is, ->-bleeped-<- doesn't effect the body, but if just effects the brain. Even with the mildest Intersex condition, the whole body is effected.
Cause? My vote is for genetic factors. With my siblings there's me, my sister who identifies as lesbian, but told me once that she has never felt like a woman, my younger brother who came out as an effeminate gay guy when he was young and now spends all his time trying to hide that fact and is actually quite hostile to me. And my other brother who is completely 'normal' and is annoyed with the rest of us for making his life difficult.
My born with an 'M' on her birth certificate daughter identifies as a 'demi-girl' and is on female HRT because her natural testosterone has seriously toxic effects.
And last of all my Mum told me back when I was still caring for her when she was quite elderly that my Dad used to crossdress back when he was a teenager. Daring stuff for the 1930s! In later life my dad was hostile to the thought of any of us being 'queer' and my younger brother who was the first of us to come out very nearly got thrown out on the street.
So you can see where I'm coming from with my vote.
Cure? - if I have a female brain I'd want to be a woman, but on the other hand I never saw myself as being sick and I should be able to live my life the way I need to without suffering prejudice.
Quote from: Rudy King on March 25, 2015, 05:23:28 PM
Sadly, I don't see doctors adding Transgender to the list of Intersex conditions anytime soon. I think the main reason is, ->-bleeped-<- doesn't effect the body, but if just effects the brain. Even with the mildest Intersex condition, the whole body is effected.
That's not necessarily the case at all. If you look at some of the stuff I've posted on here previously, a lot of MTFs have signs of "eunuchoid habitus", which is a type of body structure that results from having below normal male testosterone as you go through puberty, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. Conversely, FTMs have considerably higher than normal rates of PCOS and hyperandrogenism, endocrine disorders that result from above normal female production of testosterone. Intersexuality and transsexuality are linked conditions, and I think the difference is that intersex is the result of abnormal hormones during the early part of the pregnancy (the first trimester), whereas transness results from abnormal hormones during the second half of the pregnancy. They both have the same underlying cause though (abnormal hormones during the critical period when prenatal development is taking place), so you see a fair bit of overlap between the two.
Agreed, Hugh! And that's part of the problem. There is no neat single picture that captures this. It is a spectrum of effects. I think we have to remember that. I never had the stereotypical male V shaped upper body. Rather I had a very androgynous body and in high school I was even teased (playfully) that in a track warmup suit from behind I looked like one of the girls (longer hair, very straight body structure). My t-levels before beginning HRT we below normal. My "normal" was 290 when the normal range is 300-1200 with preferred "healthy" range being 400-600. (I think it's ng/dl units but don't recall for certain offhand.)
So there's no single "thing" that marks us as trans, though there is a huge body of evidence that white matter brain structures play a role. Most of the thinking in that area assigns it to prenatal hormone ratios in utero, but as others note, there may be genetic factors that impact that as well, making it more or less obvious.
And the manifestations of these vary so widely that how do we even know what to look for before a child tells us "I am a boy/girl" when we think they are the opposite?
Curing implies a diagnosis. Diagnosis implies a clear identifiable set of conditions but as we've been discussing, the "symptom" range for being trans is huge and not conducive to easy diagnosis until well after you are trans.
Quote from: LizMarie on March 26, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
Agreed, Hugh! And that's part of the problem. There is no neat single picture that captures this. It is a spectrum of effects. I think we have to remember that. I never had the stereotypical male V shaped upper body. Rather I had a very androgynous body and in high school I was even teased (playfully) that in a track warmup suit from behind I looked like one of the girls (longer hair, very straight body structure). My t-levels before beginning HRT we below normal. My "normal" was 290 when the normal range is 300-1200 with preferred "healthy" range being 400-600. (I think it's ng/dl units but don't recall for certain offhand.)
According to this study:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2010-3012
the average (mean) total T for normal, healthy men is 723.8 ng/dl. There are a lot of doctors trying to tell their patients that levels far below that are "normal", however there's no scientific basis for those claims. From my own experiences and what I've seen people saying in the hypogonadism forums I subscribe to, once your total T drops below about 500 ng/dl, it becomes more and more likely that you'll start developing symptoms of hypogonadism (depression, loss of motivation, inability to think clearly, ED, muscle wasting etc).
It's only relatively recently that I've had my hormone levels measured, however there are signs that I've had below normal male T levels all my life.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FPicturemedleyb_zps50a29fd1.jpg&hash=3f26cb6fb40eaa82ede0415b7ef4d88afa45f098)
This is a montage of photos of me when I was aged about 12, which I've been using to illustrate how my body structure is different from a normal male's. You can see that I've got feminine-looking facial features, long, slender arms and legs, my legs are very long in relation to my upper body, I've got a female digit ratio (ring and index fingers are almost exactly the same length). In the third photo I'm standing next to my older brother, and you can see how he's got a totally different build to me - a much heavier bone structure and much more heavily built overall, and although we're almost exactly the same height, his legs are noticeably shorter and his trunk noticeably longer than my own. My brothers (and even one of my sisters) developed severe acne as teenagers, whereas my skin remained almost totally clear (apparently, that's another symptom of reduced sex hormone production). In my case, the low T production is definitely due to secondary hypogonadism (meaning that my testicles are OK and the problem lies with the hormone-regulating regions of my brain, the hypothalamus and pituitary), since I'm currently treating it quite successfully with fertility drugs.
Other unusual things about me are that I was born with a genital abnormality called a hydrocele, which is something that's associated with lowered androgen levels during prenatal development. I've also got quite feminine body language, and, as a teenager, had the same problems of shyness and being bullied and ostracized that seem to very commonly happen as a result of DES exposure. My whole life story is quite similar to what seems to commonly happen to DES "sons", the main difference being that I don't fully identify as a woman, but rather, there's some parts of me that are quite strongly male, other parts that are quite strongly female, and probably some things that are neither male nor female too (although it's hard to tell, since I have no way of knowing for sure how other people experience the world!).
Based on what I've seen of the effects of DES, I was definitely exposed to synthetic female hormones during my prenatal development. I think the reason only part of my identity ended up female is that the exposure was during the second trimester only, and I had normal male development during both the first and third trimesters. With DES (and similar hormone treatments), the exposure was typically during the second and third trimesters, so you'd only get normal male development during the first trimester (and female development for the remainder of the pregnancy).
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So there's no single "thing" that marks us as trans, though there is a huge body of evidence that white matter brain structures play a role. Most of the thinking in that area assigns it to prenatal hormone ratios in utero, but as others note, there may be genetic factors that impact that as well, making it more or less obvious.
If you look at people with the condition Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, their resemblance to ordinary women (despite being genetically male) is so strong, that it shows that male development in people must essentially entirely be due to the action of androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) on androgen receptors, with genetic or other factors playing at best only a very minor role. The only difference between CAIS women and the genetic males who turn into men is a single mutation to the gene for the androgen receptors, that makes the cells throughout their body completely unable to detect or react to androgenic hormones. In all other respects they're exactly the same as the genetic males who turn into men, with a fully functioning Y chromosome, internal testicles in place of ovaries, and even normal to high T levels (although the mutation renders them completely insensitive to T, so it has no effect on them). In humans, maleness is entirely driven through the action of androgenic hormones on androgen receptors. This is something that's very counterintuitive, but nonetheless, it's not having a Y chromosome that makes you male, it's being exposed to androgenic hormones during your prenatal development. Being exposed to DES, or anything else that suppresses testosterone, during that critical time, can cause part of your prenatal development to occur as female instead of male, as I believe has happened to me and to millions of other genetically male people when our mothers were given DES or similar during their pregnancies with us.
Agree Hugh. However to look at it realistically to in a way if the effects are milder its a normal range if that makes sense. Like seeing a woman with masculine features is not odd. I think the tricky part really is we all start out female period its just the what happens after and to what degrees is the tricky part. From my perspective I think prepuberty I was pretty skinny and most likely more feminine in shape then I bulked up a lot which for me I was thankful for at the time (was bullied). As I have grown older though and looking back things are finally clearing up or so I think little foggier for me I guess I have milder case.
In short what I am saying is I just happen to be more in tune with who I am and feel that I am transforming. CIS are less aware for whatever reason that is.
Perhaps it is something that was latent and now its more pronounced now (40's dmab btw). Either way I am thinking the brain was indeed effected so long ago just more I finally have realized who I am. Don't think it makes me any less anything but do feel though it is indeed a natural thing to have a certain degree of m/f no matter what we are not ever 100% either but are 100% both its just what balance it is and to try and polarize it to how we feel.
Just happen to post close to when you did and really fairly similar at that age but I know at least one thing I was not subjected to DES. However still possible that I wasn't given enough T in prenatal development and as for my T levels now well they are lower at 290 t 80 e which is still considered normal range by some. The one thing that has probably effected me over the years is I happen to have an infection in a testicle that pretty much killed one and perhaps that is the cause. Perhaps I have fought this lack of T (20 years) for long enough and I have finally given up the fight yet I had thoughts before the infections so eh maybe fate does funny things lol. However it works to be honest does it truly matter the way I see it transgeder are basically more self aware and something tells them they need a boost to change for whatever reason that is. Does it make them any less of a person really no more of one. If I could think of one all encompassing thing that is all to common are we for the most part empathetic? Could be wrong on that but...
Well seeing as you cant 'cure' being cis I'm gonna assume there wont be a cure for being trans.
Unless by cure you mean something that will make a FTM have 100% male body.
I don't exactly know how this kind of thing can be prevented for future generations... I'm more slanted to the idea that gender dysphoria is something I wish people wouldn't have to go through... Maybe there's different kinds so I'm not 100% sure.. For me I fail to see what good it has done for me... I almost killed myself because of the discomfort.. Not to mentioned I had trouble being a guy so fitting in was hard enough.. Then there was my early years of autism which only made everything worse.. I still remember my conversations with myself when I was a kid.. I occasionally talk to myself but I do it as a form of therapy for me...
There is one thing I'm a bit curious about.. A true cure for gender dysphoria would be to fix what not connecting the mind to the body Together... Even though I'm all in for a cure... The idea of it happening to me is almost enough to make me cry.. That means losing you in the process you'll end up being a new fresh mind... That feeling is almost like that part of butterfly effect right in the end... I know it's better but it's a tough having to give it up... For kids it.shouldn't be too bad..
I for one agree I wish no one had to go through this and there definitely is different types and degrees of GID. Some maybe mostly physical some might be mostly mental or a mix there of.
As for your idea of a true cure having mind detached from your body as far as gender it wouldn't work. It would be like the idea of a phantom limb.
We are what we are as a whole (mind, body and spirit) for better or worse and I wont say its easy since society looks down upon it. But we as of today do have some options to at least correct at least to some degree to fit into mainstream society or feel comfortable with ourselves and that is the important part. I think the real cure is us evolving ourselves to a better state for us.
Too look for what could be done to prevent ->-bleeped-<- in the first place would be like trying eradicate any portion of society really. What I mean by that is to rid the world of no one would ever need glasses or go bald or what have you the tricky part is taking away everything to make a utopia doesn't work either. If everyone and everything was perfect then it wouldn't be perfect because we would be bored and never progress to learn something new. Its the differences in people that make us all human just some cant get past certain differences. If we could only love one and another maybe peace on earth might actually happen. Sorry pipedream:) But we could sure try darn it.
Sorry perhaps a little off topic.