This is something I never understood. How come adults can never clock super passable girls but children can? I never understood this. Can someone explain?
I think it has a good deal to do with the fact that as kids we see someone inside more than the outer. Kid's are not jaded adults yet and they have innocent eyes and hearts for the most part. I believe it is possible they might see your possible lack of self confidence or see something in your eyes. I know I just went to church last week, I still look like a male, but i as dressed up and let my confident self shine, a little girl saw it right away. My 2 cents. :angel:
Because they are soul stealing little demons.
Kids also lack the filters that adults have that prevent them from saying anything. Just because adults don't say anything is no reason to assume they haven't noticed anything. And there are some kids who don't see it, my 10 and 12 yo granddaughters didn't see it.. The elder one did when she saw an old pic of me.. The younger still has no clue.
I expected to be outed by every child I saw in public... hasn't happened yet. Knock on wood!
Quote from: marsh monster on March 25, 2015, 06:27:42 PM
Because they are soul stealing little demons.
Yes.
Just because a kid is looking at you doesn't mean you're being clocked. It could mean that they just think you're non-threatening and want to interact with you.
Kids used to take one look at me and burst into tears from sheer horror, now they smile.
I haven't had that issue... its been the opposite for me I think... maybe adults are just being polite?
Im not trying to brag and maybe Im just delusional but the only time I ever really fear being "clocked" is when Im around little kids... They simply say it like it is and they dont hold back especially if they dont know you...
I have been clocked before by little kids and for a long time I was afraid of them... Lately Ive also been 100% accepted by friends and their kids have done the same ^-^
Quote from: marsh monster on March 25, 2015, 06:27:42 PM
Because they are soul stealing little demons.
I suspected as much! :P
Quote from: Jill F on March 25, 2015, 06:35:06 PM
Just because a kid is looking at you doesn't mean you're being clocked.
Couldn't have said it better.
I think often we imagine people are figuring us when maybe they're just looking at our facial expression or body language.
When someone stares at me, I immediately smile back. And when I smile back, I'd say 7/10 times, the person smiles back. Other three times they think I'm nuts for smiling.
Well, as someone who has experience in drawing, I have a theory that in part it has to do with the angle they're seeing your face from. I think our more masculine features tend to be more obvious from a lower viewpoint.
Also, it may be that you aren't actually passing to the adults, they just see someone who is more androgynous and can kinda/sorta tell, but have the common kindness not to say anything. Kids aren't as discreet.
Then again, one of the first people to not read me as male was this little kid at my school...he was like eight or ten, really sweet. I was seventeen, and he walked up behind me and asked me if I was a boy or a girl, because I was wearing this very androgynous purple sweater with knee-high boots. Of course, when a teacher told him "that's not a boy, it's a MAN!" it got less cute pretty fast, but still...kinds aren't as bound up in social convention. That's important to remember.
Kids clocks people when something is out of proportion. Big hands are one way. Large bones are another way. After a number of years and lots of human contact, people realize that there is a huge variation in structure so they look at other thins like the way a person walks or other mannerisms.
Passing is more than just looks and getting clocked by a kid as unusual isn't the end. When one gets clicked by a kid, ignore it and keep going. After a couple of meetings they accept a person in the gender they are presenting as.
Jennifer
I've had lots of little kids ask me in my lifetime whether I was a man or a woman. It's usually at a star party where it is a moonless night and they can't really see my shape but my voice is odd to them and they are confused. What's funny is to see their parents scramble to shut them up and apologize.
Cindi
I think most the time kids are not clocking people. They are just curious and tend to stare more unaware of the social taboo of doing this that adults have learnt. They did this to me just as much in my previous existence as they do now if not more.
Ohhhh, that's another good point! Adults will probably see you before they hear your voice; for kids, it's the other way around! I think that might explain why kids gendered me correctly first, but many amazing LOOKING girls who don't have perfect voices tend to get misgendered by them! I think that might be it, actually. The voice thing.
Only one kid so far has "clocked" me and that's one whose parents told her.
Suffice to say I'm not friends with those losers anymore.
Heck even my kids say I look like a girl...
honestly I think kids are a really good test of passability....also chat roulette cause its a bunch of piggy straight men wanking and they will be honest if they think your a guy... its weird cause ive passed both those "tests" but yet im pretty sure I got sired for the first time not too long ago so I have no idea if I pass anymore and its causing me a lot of anxiety with going out or interacting with people and even looking in mirrors..
Quote from: Annabolton on March 25, 2015, 08:28:10 PM
honestly I think kids are a really good test of passability....also chat roulette cause its a bunch of piggy straight men wanking and they will be honest if they think your a guy... its weird cause ive passed both those "tests" but yet im pretty sure I got sired for the first time not too long ago so I have no idea if I pass anymore and its causing me a lot of anxiety with going out or interacting with people and even looking in mirrors..
Funny thing is I went to my kids classroom (preK, 4 years old) to read Horton hears a Who by Dr Seuss. I dressed up as a guy I think, with a long fleece to cover my butt and baggy enough to hide my boobs. I am not out to the school yet, so they know me as a guy.*
At the end the teacher said, "Tell mr J thank you for reading to the class today."
Nearly the whole class said, "Thank you Mrs J"
The teacher panicked and said, "No it's MISTER J"
I almost bust out laughing and said, "no it's OK... lol"
*Sometimes I wonder. Nobody has said anything to me but some of the school staff has given me weird looks. Some of the parents who don't know me treat me like one of the moms. It's weird but satisfying.
It's simple. Kids pay very close attention to things. Compared to us adults, who spend half our time worrying about our own problems.
If your wrist is a little big, or your proportions are just a little bit different ... a kid is *going to spot that*. Little buggers!
I suppose the thing to do is to stay away from them. Or, perhaps you could borrow a baby for a day and they'll think you are the mother.
Cindi
Just a theory, no idea really. Adults see more and notice more at one time. This comes from experience and learning differences in people. The downfall is that with more things to cue from there are more things to shroud or confuse a persons perspective. With kids the younger they are the less of these traits they are likely to have learned to recognize. A lot of the time if only focusing on head shape/size, hand size, voice, height it is easier to pick out.
Example of this might be if you had 100 pictures of just hands, or just feet, or just shoulders and the pictures left out all other cues it might be easier for an adult to pick out biological gender. Kids, because of the lack of experience have more focus on the things they do know to look for.
This is all just a guess. I am actually sort of curious how off base I might be on this.
Kids stare at me all the time. Not from anything gender related, but because of my hardware and oddly shaped face and ear. If I catch them staring I simply wink and let bygones be bygones.
Kids lack the filters adults do, and sometimes adults should remove some of those filters imho! Honesty should be a thing, but we hide behind masks.
Cheers ladies,
Lorenz
Or perhaps your Conan O' Brian ? At least thats what I see. LoriLorenz ^-^
I don't know. I suspect the thing about children being more likely to clock someone is largely a myth, actually. Children are probably more likely to say something because they don't know any better. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are more likely to clock someone.
Quote from: Jill F on March 25, 2015, 06:35:06 PM
Just because a kid is looking at you doesn't mean you're being clocked. It could mean that they just think you're non-threatening and want to interact with you.
That is so true. I remember about a month after I went full time, I was standing in line at a Panera Bread and a 6 year old girl, just kept starring at me. I though I was about to outed by a 6 year old. She says to me, "Wow your a tall lady!!!" I smiled back and said yes I am.
Fortunately I've never been clocked by a child that I know of.
Kids just...know things. It's freaky.
The OP never really said what they believed constituted being "clocked" by children. Or how young. If it's simply being stared at without an accompanying "mommy, why is that man in a dress" then there's no indication they've worked anything out. Anyway, kids categorise things in weird ways based on the only evidence to hand - for example, a neighbour's 8 year old daughter once presumed I was older than her father because I was taller than him (I wasn't older, it was based on the presumption that as you get older as a kid you grow taller, ergo really tall people must be quite old indeed!). It was an odd piece of logic but made me remember how I used to put 1 and 1 together to get 11... I mean, why not? When it comes to gender, it's one of the key differentiations children learn at an early age, including what is considered "correct" clothing, look and behaviour for men and women. Kids don't have a filter to stop them from asking embarrassing question out loud when things don't add up the way they think they should.
The group I worry most about is teenage girls (followed by worrying about groups of teenage boys). I about freeze up every time i run into a group of teenage girls. Tonight I went to the movie theater with a friend and ran smack dab into a group of teenage girls and somehow managed to escape their scrutiny :o
Little kids don't seem to clock me for some reason.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 25, 2015, 08:47:59 PM
I suppose the thing to do is to stay away from them. Or, perhaps you could borrow a baby for a day and they'll think you are the mother.
Cindi
Happens all the time when kiddo spends weekend with me - luckily, she is too small to understand exactly what people are telling me, otherwise, she would be interrupting with statements "No, that's not my mom, that's my dad" (which would be... awkward). The first time was last year (I was not really passing around that time, btw) when random people who met us on the street congratulated me with Mother's Day (felt sort of affirming, yet wrong).
I have had mixed responses with kids, from asking my name or being called "aunty" to "Mommy, why he has a ponytail???" - to which I burst out in laughter and mom smiled back at me with apologising look.
NEVER HEARD OF THAT ???
Kids are very observant.
I recall a funny Xmas with my daughter one year.
There were two presents under the tree with the same wrapping. One had a card "from Santa", the other had a card from me. In my furious state to wrap and not waste paper, of course I used wrapping paper multiple times.
To which my daughter, then 4 years old, said "Santa has the same wrapping paper as you!"
D'oh
I went to a work party with a handsome man... almost like a couple. The wife seen through me I believe... she was sweet to me. My boss uneasy because my date was a longterm worker of his... friends and he was married. My boss told him, "Why dont you sit with "my name"?" when we were sitting on the couches as in "wtf dude?"..... but neither of us responded, and he was so handsome that I didnt care what anyone thought. That month he was mine. My date had this look of total awe, so it was ackward and awesome. Then a female coworker came in all disgusted like when she saw us.... and was irritated with him. She later hinted that he was into me.... but I didnt care. Shes homophobic though.
I didnt say goodbye to my date though.... because I knew my image had to be maintained. Thr date held the door for me waiting for me to come in from the patio... but he had this look of utter frustration. My date invited me to his place, show me his room, and offer me to wear his shirt... I should had said yes.. but its been a long time now....
At this time.... I was trying to act like a man... but one coworker was like, "He is a man" like he was affirming my manhood as if it was in question. All.the straights guys like me though... one borderline flirted with me "lifting my hand up and looking at my wrist".. the gay guy was indifferent to me... lol its funny. I wasnt acting gay or trans... its like my inner energy. When Im like at my highest peak of this energy... straight men are like ... wowza Im confuse.
((THE REASON I POSTED THIS)) I soon left the party but as I left the party the boss daughter said to me ,"goodbye" with a smile. I then realize I was Bella Swan to her (okay maybe not exactly but I had that man spellbound that day). But she saw I was a girl... i think. She was like 14.
My boss never mention it again... but he knows what Im really am.... but really he became standoff'ish to me. At first, like the 1st month of knowing me he was very friendly, but then it chilled down.
The only time children have referred to me it has always been, she or that lady. With adults unfortunately that is most certainly not the case so I guess my personal experience is quite the opposite of the assertion.
Kids see things for what they are, do they match Mum or Dad more... and they have not learned the more subtle things in life, like white lies, not hurting feelings... god bless them :-\
I have been on the end of that too ;)
L Katy
Hmmm, I've never experienced that or even stopped to think about it till now. I've been around children a lot in daycares, baby sitting, including raising my own from kinder to college and all his little friends growing up. I'll have to stop and take more notice. What I have seen is in my neighbor's dog who does not like men. A friend of mine just beginning transition was visiting and to me she is very passable.. but not to that dog. It went beserk on her. I guess her scent had not changed hormonally yet?
Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 25, 2015, 08:47:59 PM
I suppose the thing to do is to stay away from them. Or, perhaps you could borrow a baby for a day and they'll think you are the mother.
Cindi
My problem is my 4 year old son calls me DADDY very loudly in public... and I don't have the heart to tell him to stop. I do tell him "inside voice please!"
My daughter was only 5 when she asked why I went in the women's room with her. I told her that I was a girl now. I told them my name and that they could call me that. Instead, they both learned to call me MMMMM. That got my attention and it was fine. I didn't see them but once or twice a year and even at that sometimes only for a few minutes. I did get to take them on two fine camping adventures to national parks while they were young. On our way to Yellowstone, my son asked a couple of probing questions and I answered them frankly. Then he asked if we could talk about something else. I know that it disturbed him. I have no idea what my younger daughter thought. She would have been seven. Those are still treasured memories to me.
Cindi
Quote from: Jill F on March 25, 2015, 06:35:06 PM
Just because a kid is looking at you doesn't mean you're being clocked. It could mean that they just think you're non-threatening and want to interact with you.
This can't be overstated. If anything kids are probably more likely to gender you correctly as they're much more likely to base gender assumptions on social cues. As someone else said though they also have no filter.
I've never been clocked by children so far...after 25yrs living as a woman.
But I've been clocked several times by 'straight' men who, I think, are bi or tv in drag having a 'TS dar' similar to a gaydar.
Thing is: adolescent boys, grown up men have a strong sexuality and simply have another outlook than young children.
Quote from: Eva Marie on March 26, 2015, 01:46:53 AM
The group I worry most about is teenage girls (followed by worrying about groups of teenage boys). I about freeze up every time i run into a group of teenage girls. Tonight I went to the movie theater with a friend and ran smack dab into a group of teenage girls and somehow managed to escape their scrutiny :o
Little kids don't seem to clock me for some reason.
Heh, I was like that too at first. I remember one day sitting on a bench in the mall, just drinking a coffee and texting. Nearby there were a couple teenage girls sitting on another bench. They were being loud and rowdy like teen girls are, giggling and practically shouting. I expected them to say something about me so I braced for it. But all I heard from them before they left was 'Okay c'mon let's leave this lady alone'. After that I was just like '....lady? Omg I'm old...' Lol. Now the only thing I worry about with teens is being perceived as middle-aged or something (I only just turned 29 but I look younger anyway). I guess it's the same way that I look at teens and think they look closer to kids than adults. Weird stuff. But anyway I've been called a 'MILF' by a few teenage boys... So being clocked is never a concern for me, just being considered 'old'. :laugh:
Kids also used to freak me out because of this concept but since my voice caught up with the rest of me, I haven't been clocked at all by anyone. In fact I've had people tell me 'prove it' when I out myself because they can't believe it. Or I also get 'I would have never guessed you were trans' a lot. Being stealth, and passability in general, are very weird things. You spend so much time with the paranoia of not passing and bracing for comments and worst-case scenarios. But then when you pass... you just blend in. So then you gotta gradually shrug off that paranoia. Well mostly anyway. I live with people that don't know, so I do still get paranoid sometimes and have to make sure I'm tucked enough, but there are days I swear I could have a lil bulge going on down there and I'd still get away with it, lol. I think it's like a scale, and once you're past a certain point into the female range, you can get away with a lot. First impressions also matter though because you could have a lil upper lip shadow, but if someone has already made that initial determination of your gender, they'll likely ignore it rather than use it as a stepping-stone for further speculation. They'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But I guess if there is speculation in that initial identification, it opens the door for further speculation. I suppose kids are just less certain of things and might not make the determination as quickly.
I was at a cafe yesterday and some four year old kid seemed quite fascinated by me as he walked by with his mother. All I heard was "that lady" so I don't know the rest of the story.
Quote from: Ms Grace on March 27, 2015, 03:25:54 PM
I was at a cafe yesterday and some four year old kid seemed quite fascinated by me as he walked by with his mother. All I heard was "that lady" so I don't know the rest of the story.
;) hmm let me finish the story for you...
"That lady was pretty, wasn't she billy?
^-^