not sure if there was a topic in this but i'd like to know what it means to all of you. being transgendered to mean means your not simply just either aan or a women. you become something more, let's see, complex but yet simple. a mle to female becomes not simply as women but a women among women or a female to male becomes not simply a man but a man among men. feelings and emotion are even more than what a simple person's emotions are. your more in tuned with what's not only on the outside but the inside as well. mm simply put, your note unique than the rarest creature. however your feared because you just may bring about the end. well that's it for me, lemme hear from you
Being transgender is simple. Our brain is wired to want us to be a gender that doesn't matches our body sex.
How we experience it is complicated. For me, it was the feeling all my adult life that being a woman would be the most wonderful thing that could happen to me. It wasn't logical, didn't come from any conscious thought. It was just there, a powerful feeling.
When I began transitioning, seeing myself as female produced this amazing euphoric feeling. The idea of remaining male seemed intolerably drab.
I never "felt like" a woman. I still don't. If you shook me awake and asked me my gender, I'd probably say I'm a male. However, living as a woman is definitely right for me. I wouldn't go back for anything.
interesting. I just also find it driving me insane but I hoped on that ship since day one lol ;D
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 13, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
Being transgender is simple. Our brain is wired to want us to be a gender that doesn't matches our body sex.
Wouldn't that be true more like for those who are transsexual, and some who are gender-non-binary, agender or some other variation? While many transgender people, like crossdressers, transvesties, dragkings and dragqueens, for example, do have a matching gender-biologicalsex combination, in a sense where their inner gender (female as an example) matches their biological sex (female as an example).
I think because of my history living as a male early in life, then going through transition and becoming a woman, the woman I am now, I really appreciate and treasure my womanhood, my femininity, I have cis women friends, they don't really appreciate how beautiful and how wonderful it is just being a woman, they take it so much for granted, but because of my trans history, (being trangender) I value every aspect of my girlishness, I just simply love being a woman, now a married woman, a housewife, if I was cis, maybe I wouldn't appreciate just being a woman.
I use to hate myself and feel awful about myself. Over the past two or so years since I got help to deal with my inability to accept myself and starting HRT I have slowly awakened to the reality I am different but that is ok. As I start to express more and more I feel awkward and have fear but I still proceed. As I inform others of what I am going to do I feel fear but I plan and keep going. I look back on the things I do now that are my new normal and I think how frightened I was doing it the first few times.
So what does it mean to me to be transgender? It means to me I need to fight for what. I need and hold onto what I have earned. It means to enjoy the time I have with accepting friends. It mean that although I am frightened, at times, I will get through it. Small victories are savored. Acceptance as myself is valued very highly.
It's like any other medical condition I have. I manage it with medication and lifestyle adjustment.
I will be brutally honest in that it's more of a burden than a blessing but I can see the silver lining sometimes. But make no mistake I would have given the world to be cis, specifically a cis woman.
First, I don't identify as "transgendered". I'm transgender. Transgendered implies that something happened to you to make you this way. Nothing happened to me. It's just the way I am.
Quote from: iKate on April 13, 2015, 08:13:17 PM
It's like any other medical condition I have. I manage it with medication and lifestyle adjustment.
And I agree with Kate. It's just a medical condition that I manage with medication in the form of hormones, and lifestyle adjustment in the form of transition. Aside from impacting my life in those ways, I don't feel that there's anything meaningful about this condition for me. I'm just a guy who had the misfortune of being dealt female plumbing and the bits that are associated with it. Nothing more, nothing less.
To me, being transgendered is being born into the wrong body, to me it also means taking steps to right the biological wrong at birth.
I believe going through that transition makes us somewhat stronger than those not confronted by GID, however it is all consuming and comes at a price, both emotionally and financially.
Would I go through this again, hell yeah, unless I was born into the correct biological gender.
L Katy
I think that being transgender is being who we are. A woman at my support group told a story of how she loved karaoke, but was embarassed about her voice. She would only sing certain songs that she thought she could sing without her voice giving her away. Eventually she hit a point where she didn't care what other people thought anymore and started singing whatever she liked, including deep voiced male country songs. This to me is an amazing thing, she started accepting who she is.
I feel that every human being on earth is constantly striving to figure out where they fit in to live a happy, successful life. In our case, that strive to be ourselves results in changes that are contradictory to the rules that society has imposed upon the human race. Once we are able to overcome these societal barriers and be ourselves, I think we are able to start reaching for that happiness that everyone wants. Am I a woman? Yes. Do I fit the role that society says women should fulfill? Absolutely not. I am me, and can't really be anyone else. Unfortunately, that is easier to write than to do, but I think everyone faces this same struggle. I don't see a lot of difference between what cisgendered and transgendered people are trying to achieve.
I don't really know what it means to me. Sometimes I feel like being transgender has taught me to be more understanding of other peoples' problems, especially those that are perceived to be 'different' (Often those that fall under the LGBT spectrum). Other times it drives me crazy. It has turned me into an inward, lonely, socially awkward, numb, emotionally stunted sort of individual.
It took a lifetime for me to accept being transgender and now I wear it proudly. For me it means I have a unique and special life history that includes thinking I was going to magically grow up to be a mom until puberty. After puberty I reluctantly worked to somehow be the man expected of me and my anatomy. Like many I overcompensated and tried the typical paths to manhood including being a soldier and going to war. I did't know there were options and had no language in the 50s and 60s for what was wrong with me and why I felt so alien in my own body. Being transgender means I experienced persistent and eventually debilitating dysphoria until I addressed and accepted the truth and began transition. Now it also means being out and on a journey to authenticity and being my more true self.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 13, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
Being transgender is simple. Our brain is wired to want us to be a gender that doesn't matches our body sex
this is exactly how I see it.
we are a strange subset of humanity. some sort anomaly that experiences gender dysphoria. fortunately for us, we live a time that offers the solution of transitioning.
->-bleeped-<- is very interesting if you think about it objectively. in theory, a mind that would rather die than live as the gender it was born into shouldn't exist. its detrimental to survival. yet here we are, talking to each other on the internet. we do exist, and it's beautiful. we are a shining example of how far we have come as a species, as well as how much further we still have yet to go. any person who is against ->-bleeped-<- is a person who fails to see the bigger picture.
Quote from: iKate on April 13, 2015, 08:13:17 PM
It's like any other medical condition I have. I manage it with medication and lifestyle adjustment.
I will be brutally honest in that it's more of a burden than a blessing but I can see the silver lining sometimes. But make no mistake I would have given the world to be cis, specifically a cis woman.
^That.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 13, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
Being transgender is simple. Our brain is wired to want us to be a gender that doesn't matches our body sex.
How we experience it is complicated. For me, it was the feeling all my adult life that being a woman would be the most wonderful thing that could happen to me. It wasn't logical, didn't come from any conscious thought. It was just there, a powerful feeling.
When I began transitioning, seeing myself as female produced this amazing euphoric feeling. The idea of remaining male seemed intolerably drab.
I never "felt like" a woman. I still don't. If you shook me awake and asked me my gender, I'd probably say I'm a male. However, living as a woman is definitely right for me. I wouldn't go back for anything.
This sums me up perfectly. I know even if I were to fully transition, I probably wouldn't identify myself as woman if people were to ask. Just me personally I feel like its rude to say so as I wasn't born female. I would probably address it as trans woman as that is how I see it. I also never felt like a "woman in a man's body" I just have an affinity to things feminine (and ironically not more or less to masculine things)
being transgender is me
to me, it means I when I was born; the doctor saw me, but he didn't see ME.
During childhood, I knew something was wrong, but my mom said I was a boy. who was I to argue?
As I grew, I started trying to tell.. and crying myself to sleep a lot because I didn't like who I was becoming..
I still haven't been able to fix my body, and I curse the 'fates' (or what have you, sorry if I offend someone's beliefs) for making me grow into somebody else's life.
being transgender to me, is to constantly look forward to the day when I can just be me.
Quote from: ftmax on April 14, 2015, 08:56:14 AM
First, I don't identify as "transgendered". I'm transgender. Transgendered implies that something happened to you to make you this way. Nothing happened to me. It's just the way I am.
I'd take "transgendered" over "transgender". The latter word really makes no sense. You wouldn't say (I'd hope not, at least) that Emma Watson is a female gender individual. She is gender
ed female. "ed" has nothing to do with a process. If anything, I think the issue would be more with the prefix "trans" as it literally means "to cross (over)".
->-bleeped-<- is a form of intersexuality by which the affected individual lacks outwards identifying traits of such a condition, the discordance generally originating from the brain. Transgendered individuals may also be affected by chromosomal and/or hormonal abnormalities.
i think its a pain. the ever swelling emotions, repressed feelings digging their way out of your soul literally making your head spin faster than the speed of light. however i can say, it reveals what you truly are but its not something everyone can exactly handle. basically its just to complicated that my head hurts just thinking about it soemtimes
Personally, I identify as transgendered because I don't feel comfortable with the sexual parts of my body. It's partly a matter of gender roles, other's perception of me, etc. But my desire for a penis and ambivalence about having a vagina is the main thing for me. If I were happy with my physical sex I'd prolly identify as simply (ha!) an androgynous woman, female-bodied androgyne, or something along the lines of "chapstick pansexual" (that last one could describe me as I am actually).
To me, being transgender is a matter of being who I am. It's a bit more complicated than that as I do personally feel my gender is separate from personality and the sort so it's not just that, but it's still me and it has to be part of my lifestyle, if that makes any sense.
To me, being transgender is like being stuck in a part I feel like I was never meant to play. Forever, I felt like I was given this "role" and I was never quite good at it. For a long time, I didn't really know who I was because I was wearing this mask for so long, I had pretty much accepted it (begrudgingly of course). Then I felt that I couldn't wear the mask anymore. I couldn't live my life as a straight woman. I would rather live as a gay man.
So I guess, to me, transitioning isn't even transitioning. That implies changing who I am, and I'm not. I'm not changing who I am because I never was that person. I was only pretending because that's how I was conditioned to be.
It means, to be born into a world of boxes, and be placed in a bow at birth, that comes with do's I can't stand to do, and donkt I have to do. To be reffered to with words I can't stand to hear. It means to fit sterio types designated for people in another box and to grow feeling increasing different. It means to learn I am different.
It means to understand I am different and will always be, and because of that embrace everything about me that makes me, me.
To accept myself for who I am.
To reject what I can't live with.
To understand that wether one is male or female depends on who you ask.
To realise that when it comes to being who I am, man and woman are irelavent.
I am me, this is all I ever was can and will be.
It ment being held to exspectations.
It means understanding exspectaions are nothing but a gamble.
It means being able to find people that truelly care about me.
It means growing to be content.
It means who I am is hidden so deep benieth a what hardly anyone can find me.
It means learning to accept parts of my life and body I can't change as I change the parts I can.
I think I'm geeting to the point where I repeat myself now. I'm sure their are other things that I can't think of just now, but I'm surr that's the same for most.
FWIW, I just ran across a beautiful transgender story by Heather Rose Brown called "Shoes" in which one character tries to explain this to their cis brother using shoes.
I won't link it, due to the Susans.org policy on external links, but you can find it pretty quickly via Google.
Being transgender is simply being a part of the natural variation of our species. Statistically, it's simple (see attached picture). We represent probably a third standard deviation of gender/ sex within the population. It would actually be very strange if we didn't exist.
Philosophically, being transgender means for me that I have experienced more aspects of society and socialization than either a cisgender man or woman would be likely to experience. This is particularly important in the development of my staunch feminism that I may not have had if I'd been born male. I don't see myself as having been born in the "wrong" body but rather that the intersection of my body and society is laden with all sorts of unrealistic expectations based in deep ignorance. I'm not comfortable with my chest and never have been, whether or not that would be the case if I had grown up differently (i.e., in a society that accepts women and men of different sexes) is a question that I'll never have the ability to answer. However, I despise the pressure placed on myself and other transgender people (especially women) to modify our bodies when that may or may not actually be desired. No one has the right to tell someone else what they should do with their body.
So, I guess that in summary, being transgender means that I often feel unseen, stigmatized, or even fetishized by a society that doesn't understand that I'm just another data point of equal value to them. It also means that I am less likely to see binaries or to draw conclusions when I shouldn't. It means that my mind and society disagree over what my body should be like and what rights I have to it. It very likely means that I'm more understanding than if I'd been born male or as a girl - though, that's not to say that being transgender confers enlightenment.
It means a lot of things and very little all at once.
Quote from: ftmax on April 14, 2015, 08:56:14 AM
First, I don't identify as "transgendered". I'm transgender. Transgendered implies that something happened to you to make you this way. Nothing happened to me. It's just the way I am.
And I agree with Kate. It's just a medical condition that I manage with medication in the form of hormones, and lifestyle adjustment in the form of transition. Aside from impacting my life in those ways, I don't feel that there's anything meaningful about this condition for me. I'm just a guy who had the misfortune of being dealt female plumbing and the bits that are associated with it. Nothing more, nothing less.
^ Exactly how I feel.
i tend to keep adding ed to everything plus i type awfully fast. by the time i went to change it, i couldnt. sry about that
Quote from: Ian68 on April 21, 2015, 01:14:42 PM
Being transgender is simply being a part of the natural variation of our species. Statistically, it's simple (see attached picture). We represent probably a third standard deviation of gender/ sex within the population. It would actually be very strange if we didn't exist.
huh, this is very interesting to me. I pretty much said the exact opposite in the previous page. I believe that, from an evolutionary standpoint, the fact that we exist is highly extraordinary.
I'd love to read more into your views on this, im very open to changing my perspective. could you send a link to the picture you attached? I dont think you're able to post it since you're still new to this forum.
It's natural that trans and intersex people exist just as it's natural that any other 'exception to the rule' category exists. From genetic abnormalities to homosexuality (which is highly evidence to be genetic anyway).
It's natural, but not what I would call normal.
Quote from: sonson on April 21, 2015, 05:14:17 PM
huh, this is very interesting to me. I pretty much said the exact opposite in the previous page. I believe that, from an evolutionary standpoint, the fact that we exist is highly extraordinary.
Notice, though, that many of us have the ability to ignore it long enough to procreate, so it isn't an evolutionary dead end.
I think that we're important to the species - to help people escape the straightjacket of their gender. We bring perspectives that other people don't have, so one could argue that cultures where transgender people are respected might have higher survival rates.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 21, 2015, 06:04:24 PM
Notice, though, that many of us have the ability to ignore it long enough to procreate, so it isn't an evolutionary dead end.
I'll reply to the other post in a moment but wanted to quickly respond to this one...
The "ignore long enough to procreate" bit may be true but is also kind of artifactual, right? Technically, there's no reason why we should be expected *not* to be able to reproduce even when we recognize and live as our true genders. It's only very recently that GCS (formerly SRS) and hormones were available but transgender people have existed for as long as we have historical records. We're not inherently infertile, that depends entirely upon who we partner with and whether or not our reproductive organs are functional (or in the case of surrogacy, we've "banked" eggs or sperm).
A gay trans man who partners with a cisgender man can theoretically procreate as can a lesbian transgender woman with a cisgender woman. Obviously, transgender men and women are reproductively compatible. Really, the only incompatibilities that arise reproductively are direct analogies to those that exist for cisgender people (i.e., two gay transgender men or two lesbian transgender women). The issue here isn't actually gender or even sexuality but simply of reproductive compatibility and the presence/ absence of reproductive or sexual dysphoria (i.e. whether or not a transgender woman or man is comfortable with certain sexual practices, and whether or not a transgender man is willing to physically have a child).
What all of that is trying to say is simply that even though it commonly happens that gender-suppression enables reproduction within the context of a falsely heterosexual-cisgender relationship, it doesn't actually mean that is the only way that we can be reproductively successful even in the absence of modern medicine. Clearly, with modern medicine, we have more options (i.e. surrogacy for genetic reproduction, and adoption for social reproduction). I think that it's important to point this out because society *expects* all of us to give up our reproductive potential when that is absolutely not a requirement for being transgender or living as ourselves, and is entirely a personal decision.
Quote from: Atypical on April 21, 2015, 05:46:10 PM
It's natural that trans and intersex people exist just as it's natural that any other 'exception to the rule' category exists. From genetic abnormalities to homosexuality (which is highly evidence to be genetic anyway).
It's natural, but not what I would call normal.
That definitely makes sense, it does seem natural for humans to deviate from the gender norms considering how massive our population is, and how loong we've been reproducing. I'm more saying that our existence as a thriving community is what seems to go against natural selection to me. living with gender dysphoria and such high suicide rates doesn't lend itself well to survival, so the fact that we're here feels like an unlikely miracle.
though to be fair, I guess you could say the same about any subset of humans with any sort of disability, so I guess its not that farfetched that we're here.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 21, 2015, 06:04:24 PM
Notice, though, that many of us have the ability to ignore it long enough to procreate, so it isn't an evolutionary dead end.
I think that we're important to the species - to help people escape the straightjacket of their gender. We bring perspectives that other people don't have, so one could argue that cultures where transgender people are respected might have higher survival rates.
this is a good point that I hadnt considered, many of us do end up procreating before transition anyway.
and you're totally right on that second point. if a community supports transgender people, then that community is probably open to all variations of people, and more likely to be living harmoniously. that would reduce suicide rates, and bring the general quality of life up for everyone. that makes a lot of sense to me, I hadnt thought of it that way.
for some reason, i feel like a lost puppy. can someone throw me a bone here ??? lol
Being Trans is just another hat I wear occasionally. Usually I'm just another woman, nerd, artist, audiophile, bibliophile, or cinephile. I've always been the same gender, it just happens that I thought I had to hide it for most of my life since it didn't match my sex assigned at birth.
Hugs,
- Katie
Edit: Transgender isn't a prison or disability or abnormal, it's just another means of describing your circumstances. I've seen a bit of emphasis on the idea of "what is normal v. natural?" in this thread, but "normal" is bull people use as peer pressure. There is no such thing as normal or perfect, they are both judgmental concepts and as unattainable as the size 0 model figure is for most women. If you want to base your life on how other people think, by all means go ahead. But I've put up with that for too long and I won't apologize for not being normal. [emoji53]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sonson on April 21, 2015, 05:14:17 PM
huh, this is very interesting to me. I pretty much said the exact opposite in the previous page. I believe that, from an evolutionary standpoint, the fact that we exist is highly extraordinary.
I'd love to read more into your views on this, im very open to changing my perspective. could you send a link to the picture you attached? I dont think you're able to post it since you're still new to this forum.
First off, I do understand where you're coming from with the probability being extraordinarily low. I'm happy to explain where I'm coming from. I don't think that I'm allowed to post links but if you Google "normal distribution" or "bell curve," you'll see images of what kind of looks like the first part of a sine function - or like a a symmetrical "bell." The center is the peak, and is the point of division. You can think of it being bisected directly through the peak. We'll say that the right side is for women and the left for men. Within one standard deviation from that peak in both directions, you encompass 68% of the population. So, we'll say that at least 68% of the population is either male and men or female and women. Now, we know that the sex ratio is about equal so, this makes sense, but we also know that most people are cisgender so, we'll go out to two standard deviations. This now encompasses about 96% of the population. The estimates for the percentage of the world population that is either transgender or non-binary are between 1%-5%. So, the remaining 4% that is mostly encompassed by that third standard deviation is numerically consistent with that estimate. We can then say that it's plausible that about 2% of the population is female and either men or non-binary, and about 2% is male and either women or non-binary.
I like math... Hopefully that made sense...
Moving on to evolution (I'm actually an evolutionary scientist, haha), there is a thing called "intraspecific variation," that is, variation that exists within a species. In our own species, height could be considered a type of intraspecific variation. In large populations (like humans), the number of "morphs" or types of intraspecific variation typically follow a statistically normal distribution, wherein the majority of members exhibit one or two morphs (for example, a sex-based gender binary...), but there are the "tails" on either side of the bell curve that encompass that remaining ~4%. Over time, if a "morph" is selected against because it is less successful (for example, a brightly colored moth that gets eaten by predators more than a darkly colored one), it will most likely be eliminated from the population because enough of them won't survive long enough to reproduce. However, if that morph does not necessarily result in a loss of reproductive fitness, and especially if there are times in which that morph is favored, you will maintain that variation in low numbers within the population.
As I mentioned in an earlier reply, there is nothing inherent to being transgender that makes us less reproductively "fit" than someone who's cisgender *unless* either society directly intervenes to curb our reproductive potential and/ or the majority of the population fails to reproduce. Now, the obvious problem with this logic is that I'm treating being transgender as equivalent to being tall or having blue eyes. While it may eventually turn out to be the case that this equivalency works, there's currently no support for it. There is, however, support for transgender people being neurophysiologically different from cisgender people, possibly due to genetics (which would support the above) or possibly due to hormone exposure during gestation (currently favored but I suspect some degree of heritability).
There are really no studies as far as determining whether or not the biology of being transgender is actually heritable but I suspect that there is given that we have been maintained through time. Based on this, I find it likely that, for example, if two transgender people were to have a lot of kids (and I do mean *a lot*) together, that one of those children would also be transgender. I would also not be surprised if historically, transgender people whose identities were suppressed by society were also more likely (if straight) to couple with one another (because presumably, the straight woman living as a straight man would be more attracted to someone who was actually a straight man living as a straight woman than to an actual straight woman, and vice versa), thus maintaining the genetics. But again, no studies so, this is purely scientific and statistical speculation.
Anyway, I don't know if that made sense? Also, sorry for writing a small book but I think about this stuff a lot... I'm also very much against the "some event "caused" a person to "turn" trans" and "gender doesn't exist" arguments so, that's definitely coloring my views on these matters.
I look forward to hearing back from you, and what your opinions are. :)
i'm liking the different perspectives. its helping me understand a little more though i still have no idea. keep it up and thanks again ^-^
@Ian68
Transgender is a heritable trait as far as I've heard, and while the bell-curve is inherently a nice method of evaluation, there are maybe a handful of trans people in a statistically significant sample of the American population for example, for a greater than 2000 person sample size. There's also inherent flaws in gathering the information for evaluation and a reliance on truth for a persecuted population. If all people were straightforward, I imagine gender would fall on a spectrum much like the Kinseyian sexual orientation one.
Transpeople aren't exactly physiologically different from cispeople, it's just that transpeople's brains have been found to mirror cispeople in their chosen sex rather than sex assigned at birth. There's a lot of variation in human anatomy that is ignored because of surgeons tendency to perform normalizing surgical procedures on infants "so they can fit in better with society." It's the same kind of pressure as circumcision among non-Jewish people.
I have a lot of issues with the veracity behind evolutionary biology, because it typically makes a lot of assumptions. I've also heard a lot of crazy and sexist theories coined by Evo-Biologists. They are kind of a joke in some feminist circles. [emoji19]
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on April 21, 2015, 07:28:22 PM
@Ian68
Transpeople aren't exactly physiologically different from cispeople, it's just that transpeople's brains have been found to mirror cispeople in their chosen sex rather than sex assigned at birth...
I have a lot of issues with the veracity behind evolutionary biology, because it typically makes a lot of assumptions. I've also heard a lot of crazy and sexist theories coined by Evo-Biologists. They are kind of a joke in some feminist circles. [emoji19]
Sorry, I should clarify that I meant neurophysiology - that the brains of transgender people are different than those of cisgender people of their birth sex.
Re evolutionary biologists, there are very, very few who make any sort of sexist assumptions, and most of them are quite old. That said, I'm not really sure what your point was with that statement. I'm an evolutionary scientist, and I'm a staunch feminist, and transfeminist in particular (I maintain a blog that is mostly (trans)feminist stuff). Every other graduate student and faculty member I know in my field is a feminist as well, and I know a good couple hundred of them directly, and many more indirectly. It's true that there was a good amount of sexism is early "evolutionary psychology" but not so much in the actual sciences, and again, most of this is dissipating as people retire or um... expire.
Hope that clarifies!
Quote from: Ian68 on April 21, 2015, 07:08:19 PM
Anyway, I don't know if that made sense? Also, sorry for writing a small book but I think about this stuff a lot... I'm also very much against the "some event "caused" a person to "turn" trans" and "gender doesn't exist" arguments so, that's definitely coloring my views on these matters.
I look forward to hearing back from you, and what your opinions are. :)
haha, dont worry, that definitely made sense! that was a great read actually. very informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I think about this kind of stuff all the time too, though I think the difference between us is that you seem to have actual knowledge of the subject, whereas I'm always just speculating :P
I found it very interesting when you brought up the question of whether or not ->-bleeped-<- is hereditary. I had never really actively thought about this before. I had always assumed that it was non-hereditary, and just a random occurrence during gestation. I figured that if it can't be passed down, then natural selection wouldn't be able to phase it out. though you seem to say the opposite:
QuoteThere are really no studies as far as determining whether or not the biology of being transgender is actually heritable but I suspect that there is given that we have been maintained through time.
you're saying that the fact that transgender people have continued to exist throughout history is evidence that it's hereditary, correct? maybe I'm totally wrong in my thinking (never actually studied evolutionary science, in fact it wasnt allowed in my school), but I feel that although we certainly have the ability to reproduce, we seem to be far less likely in comparison to the other 96% of the population, given the social issues that you brought up earlier, not to mention dysphoria often leading to suicide or self-mutilation. It seems like if those traits are inherited, they'd have to get through a lot of improbable circumstances to remain at 4% today. I just feel like it might make more sense if it isn't hereditary.
though now Im reading that back, and I admit 4% is pretty damn low. so maybe it's not that improbable. sorry, I'm sort of writing my thoughts as I think them so Im kinda going back and forth here. anyway, as far as I know I could be totally wrong about all this, and please let me know if I am! I love discussing this stuff, thanks for engaging me! :)
You might look up a brochure called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
It states that being trans has biological connections, to do with development before birth which influences the sense of self. Inside of the brochure is a link to further references (findings and studies). One explanation are certain hormone levels at certain times before birth, for whatever reason.
In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex
characteristics, may be understood to be "much less a matter of choice and much
more a matter of biology" (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports
the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of
the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot
necessarily be overcome by "consistent psychological socialisation as male or female
from very early childhood" ...
It is understood that during the fetal period the brain
is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al.,
2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be
atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as
yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this
inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no
single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental
factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved
in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.
Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly,
2003).
It may or may not be hereditary.
Transgender people have often been throughout times teachers, advisors and healers.
(as a maybe funny aside many transgender people report being asked by their friends for relationship advice :) )
Imo many can access both male and female thinking patterns without having to fit in one box.
Quote from: sonson on April 21, 2015, 08:07:07 PM
haha, dont worry, that definitely made sense! that was a great read actually. very informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I think about this kind of stuff all the time too, though I think the difference between us is that you seem to have actual knowledge of the subject, whereas I'm always just speculating :P
I found it very interesting when you brought up the question of whether or not ->-bleeped-<- is hereditary. I had never really actively thought about this before. I had always assumed that it was non-hereditary, and just a random occurrence during gestation. I figured that if it can't be passed down, then natural selection wouldn't be able to phase it out. though you seem to say the opposite:you're saying that the fact that transgender people have continued to exist throughout history is evidence that it's hereditary, correct? maybe I'm totally wrong in my thinking (never actually studied evolutionary science, in fact it wasnt allowed in my school), but I feel that although we certainly have the ability to reproduce, we seem to be far less likely in comparison to the other 96% of the population, given the social issues that you brought up earlier, not to mention dysphoria often leading to suicide or self-mutilation. It seems like if those traits are inherited, they'd have to get through a lot of improbable circumstances to remain at 4% today. I just feel like it might make more sense if it isn't hereditary.
though now Im reading that back, and I admit 4% is pretty damn low. so maybe it's not that improbable. sorry, I'm sort of writing my thoughts as I think them so Im kinda going back and forth here. anyway, as far as I know I could be totally wrong about all this, and please let me know if I am! I love discussing this stuff, thanks for engaging me! :)
:) I think this is a great discussion to have, and I'm happy to have someone to talk with about it. "Speculation" that's based in logic is the foundation of scientific inquiry so, there is nothing wrong with that at all! I don't actually work on gender or sex for a living but I do work on variation in form (or am starting to at least) so, that's the background I'm applying. You are right that self-harm and dysphoria can lower reproductive success, and if being transgender is heritable, could lower the percentage of the population but considering that it's 1%-5%, that's still quite low. Also, I think that suicide and self-harm are probably more common now than they ever have been for a number of societal reasons. If it turns out that it is heritable, reproductive success and continuation of this variation will likely be strongly correlated with access and utilization of reproductive assistance (i.e. surrogacy) given the issues of dysphoria and that the majority of transgender people are socially straight if not clinically.
In all honesty, I don't think I even thought about these issues until I was dating my ex-girlfriend because I just *assumed* that I was a reproductive "dead-end" for the first 26 years of my life. When I was suddenly dating someone whom I could potentially have genetic children with, it kind of flipped the world's axis for me a bit, and even though it won't happen with her, I don't really consider myself as inherently reproductively isolated anymore. I don't think any of us should feel *forced* into isolation, either, anymore than we should be pressured to have kids. It's all a personal decision.
Whether or not it's heritable, or if it's something that emerges only during gestation, there's clearly some genetic underpinning, and I find that awesome. This is also very much the foundation for my personal feeling (and I know that I don't speak for everyone or maybe not even a significant number of transgender people) that I wasn't "born in the wrong body" but rather that for a transgender man, I was born in exactly the right body. If I'd been born male, I'd be in the wrong body for being a transgender man, haha! Do I have dysphoria? Yes. But if society allowed for the equal existence of men with and without breasts, I might not - I'll really never know. What I do know is that I really would like for someone in the future to be able to answer the question that I cannot. I'd like for society to reach a point wherein we aren't seen as "deviant" or "disabled" or anything other than natural variations on an already pretty amazing form. I mean, human beings have opposable thumbs and giant brains, and we can throw baseballs - that is awesome! Why don't we celebrate that? Why not include within the realms of feminine beauty and masculinity both male and female forms? There's really no reason in my opinion. No one will ever convince me that a female body can't be masculine or that a male body can't be feminine, and even that assumes that women *should* be feminine and men masculine, which doesn't fit with every person regardless of being cisgender or transgender. *And* I've also mostly ignored non-binary people who are also part of the variation that exists.
And now this has turned into one of my transgender-pride rants so, I'll end it there. Though, I think you've given me my next blog topic. :)
Cheers,
Ian
Quote from: Ian68 on April 21, 2015, 09:21:30 PM
:) I think this is a great discussion to have, and I'm happy to have someone to talk with about it.
same! I've enjoyed talking about this with you!
and as far as how I think of myself, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I dont think I'll ever consider myself to be a true female or "woman", but I do consider myself to be a transgender woman, which is good enough for me. its a pretty special thing to be, really. I wont lie and say I dont wish I could be biologically female, but if I had been born that way, then I wouldnt be who I am now, so Im happy to have been born the way I was. its a struggle, but it only makes us stronger.
QuoteI'd like for society to reach a point wherein we aren't seen as "deviant" or "disabled" or anything other than natural variations on an already pretty amazing form. I mean, human beings have opposable thumbs and giant brains, and we can throw baseballs - that is awesome!
hell yeah! my thoughts exactly, well said! ;D
Quote from: Laura_7 on April 21, 2015, 08:28:23 PM
You might look up a brochure called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
It states that being trans has biological connections, to do with development before birth which influences the sense of self. Inside of the brochure is a link to further references (findings and studies). One explanation are certain hormone levels at certain times before birth, for whatever reason.
that sounds like a good read, thanks for sharing!
Quote from: AshBear on April 17, 2015, 10:22:32 PM
being transgender to me, is to constantly look forward to the day when I can just be me.
This right here. This is my everyday. This sums up my life.
Geez I thought I tended to over intellectualize... way to kill a good thread nerds!
I always felt that, being (gender "adaptable") trans, I embody the next evolutionary step.
Quote from: femmebutt on April 23, 2015, 06:27:33 PM
Geez I thought I tended to over intellectualize... way to kill a good thread nerds!
:D <3
To me, it means that I had to go through a lot of *stuff*, and make a lot of sacrifices, just to feel comfortable in my own skin.
to me, it means I'm gonna take a bit longer to be who I am inside, but that's ok. I can wait.
For me it means...not a lot these days, really. My experience coming out was not as horrible as many people, but it created a lot of interpersonal issues and it proved to be a challenge. My time spent as a female wasn't great either, because I honestly felt terrible with my hormones as they were. I had this near constant feeling of physical and mental malaise that I could never pinpoint. So from that, I really conclude that transsexualism is biological, pure and simple, much like sexual orientation. In the same way my body gave me all these little cues that I wanted to be with women, it gave me cues that something, in its structure, was amiss.
Other than physical. I see it simply as a challenge that I experienced and am overcoming. It doesn't have to define me in any significant way. It doesn't have to define me any more than my periods of depression have or will. It doesn't have to define me any more than the issues I had with my family. I'm a man who experienced a challenge and is overcoming it.
Being transgender simply means I managed to survive a horrible, crippling medical condition that many don't survive because of the horrible things we have to overcome.
As a survivor I'm faced with the formidable task of learning to live a new life while trying to cast off remnants of my old life. There is so much to learn and so much judgement and discrimination to deal with now that I never faced before.
Would I do it again? To stay alive - yes. As a "lifestyle choice"? No way. No one in their right mind would choose this.
I survived - the rest is all gravy. I have a second chance at life now.
I'm transgender, proud, and happy. I'm also well within my right mind. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Eva Marie on April 24, 2015, 02:34:48 PM
No way. No one in their right mind would choose this.
While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement. There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness. The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are. I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality. However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory. It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true.
I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right. But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person. Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."
I use the term "transgender" to identify myself because I don't know of any other proper term, but really, I don't like the term because it sounds like you changed your gender. I have never changed my gender; I have changed how I present myself to others.
I feel like a woman who has a physical medical problem.
Rosa
Quote from: Ian68 on April 24, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement. There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness. The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are. I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality. However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory. It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true.
I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right. But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person. Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."
While it's not inherently a "bad" thing there still are consequences. People lose touch with family members or spouses for one reason or another. Yes, that's still an "other people" thing but it still factors in. My ex supports me whole-heartedly, but he's mostly straight so he could only offer to be my friend. It's not my fault that I'm trans and it's not his fault that he's not attracted to me in that way anymore. But if I were given a choice to be a cisgendered female and be with him or a transman and lose him? I'd take the first option. Sure, I -may- find someone that I like here that will accept me, but I also may not. I'm sure there are other losses people have experienced for different reasons and different situations. Lost a job they loved, cut ties with families they cared about, etc.
I don't think it was about saying being trans is bad per se, but rather everything else that comes with it, regardless of whether or not one feels it's worth it. I kinda think of it as pulling out a rotted tooth. It hurts like a mother, you can't take it anymore. You have it pulled. There's some relief but then the meds wear off and oh GOD does it hurt (though with some relief) and there's now a hole. It'll heal, sure. Was it worth it in the end? Yeah. Would you rather not have to have that situation? I think so.
It's a stupid and inaccurate analogy but I am tired and stressed from school so this is the best I can do.
Quote from: Ian68 on April 24, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
While I respect your right to feel as you do, I completely disagree with this statement. There is nothing inherently bad about being transgender, and it certainly isn't an illness. The ways in which we are often treated by society are sick but that doesn't mean that we are. I also understand that because of severe dysphoria, some people may feel "crippled," and I'm not trying to invalidate someone else's subjective reality. However, to say that "no one in their right mind would choose this" is very negative an (I'm sure unintentionally) accusatory. It's saying that 1) being transgender is bad or unnatural (see recent publications, including the new DSM), and 2) anyone who views being transgender in a positive light must suffer from a mental disorder - neither of these are objectively true.
I'm sorry that you personally feel that you suffer from an illness, but that is your right. But personally, I *would* choose to remain as I am if given the opportunity to alter the circumstances of my birth because otherwise, I wouldn't be the same person. Yes, there are things that happen that cause me to suffer that wouldn't have happened if I'd been born male, but I would also be more narrow-minded and less self-aware than I am now - those tradeoffs are too big to make it worth it in my mind, and I'm not "crazy."
I don't think anyone has outright said being trans is wrong or bad. It's just not the ideal. Many people in the trans community have had to make sacrifices in one way or another that they would not have otherwise had to make were they born with a body that matches their brain. If I got to choose, I'd want to be born male. The experience of being AFAB is not worth the trade off that is transition, IMO.
"Ideal" by what standard, though? And what about those who choose not to medically transition (even though they have the resources to do so) or those who undergo partial medical transition? Do their bodies not "match" their brains? Are they defective somehow? That's the very slippery slope this sort of assertion approaches.
Everyone has a right to their own self-perception, and to feel that their body or situation is not ideal for them, but no one has the right to claim that being transgender is bad/ less ideal than being cisgender. That is *their* subjective experience, but the claim is almost always generalized to the state of being transgender, and thus, all transgender people. There's no scientific evidence for inferiority, and societies change, and it will change if we help it to do so.
Even in a world that would be totally accepting of male-born women and female-born men, many people would want some form of medical transition because of how they personally view themselves. I believe that I would still want to have top surgery, but I doubt that I'd be thinking about testosterone. Other people wouldn't change their bodies at all. All of these variations are fine, and legitimate. If someone genuinely is uncomfortable with their body, they have a right to feel that way, and to change it - but not to pressure other people to feel that way.
Ideal is in the eye if the beholder, I guess, but it's also very personal. No one will ever convince me that a cisgender man is inherently more ideal than me as a man (he may be for other reasons). Nor will anyone convince me that I should view a transgender woman as a less ideal woman just because she has or had a male body.
People have a right to their opinions; I'm just cautioning against making generalizations that may negatively affect other transgender people (especially kids).
When I said "the ideal", I was referring to the situation. IMO, it is never the ideal situation to have to do the things that many of us have done to feel halfway decent in our bodies.
I have a medical condition. Management of that condition for me personally requires lifelong medication and multiple surgical interventions. I don't think it's offensive to say that I would rather have been born without this condition, and that having it has put me in a less than ideal situation. Maybe in a world with equal access to healthcare, I could be a little more understanding.
But it's different for everyone, and that's just my experience.