My apologies if something of the sort has been posted in the past, which I'm sure it undoubtedly has. My question is whether or not there are any changes to certain aspects of intelligence, particularly mathematics and spatial visual acuity, that comes associated with hrt. I've read someone's anecdote in which this particular person stated that she was no longer able to park as well as she once did. I can't quite tell whether this is just kinduva psychosomatic thingy or if it's a legitimate side effect of prolonged estrogen use. Halp!
Hi!
Welcome to Susan's :) Great to have you here - looking forward to seeing you around the forum.
I'd say that if there was any effect it would be marginal and/or placebo in nature. I could draw, do sums and sudoku before HRT... still can!
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Cheers
Grace
Welcome to Susan's...
I am not aware of any changes to the capacity of the mind, spatially or IQ wise... I certainly, mind wise, am as was... Certain other traits change slightly like a softer approach to everyday obstacles, a sort of calmness.
Welcome...
L Katy
I've observed a similar effect to what you're talking about, both the parking (never was good at that to begin with) and my ability to concentrate. I used to be able to focus in on a task and block out everything else. I'm finding that harder to do these days.
Yea it's strange stuff. Makes me want to try black nail polish sometimes even though I'm a red nail polish girl. Seriously I do not think it affects you unless you allow it to. I feel more calm, focused & more feminine which feels good & normal for me.
There are people who report they see colours more pronounced than before.
Some even say their eye colour changed a bit.
The spatial thing might also be a matter of coordination of brain halves.
Imo parts might change, a part might be recovered by training. There might also be benefits, like a stronger intuition.
Things like intelligence can be to some extent trained. If people train before an intelligence test it has an impact on results.
hugs
My eyes are green blue with a dash of amber/brown. The blue green increased in brightness and I think I have a little more blue.
I am much calmer and at ease. So I can listen more, not jump to conclusions and think more before reacting. I deal with emergency situations periodically and I can remain completely calm during the events now.
I found this research-paper interesting, as may some of you:
Quote"Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure"
http://m.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.full (http://m.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.full)
In the prospect of my Estradiol Valerate said: "Don't use it for increase brainpower" , so.. I guess maybe can help a little bit. Actually I don't feel that but maybe other person can. I hope it helps you with your answer.
Hugs
Thanks, ladies! I really appreciate it. I'm glad to be in these forums amidst such kind individuals! I'm just so afraid I might lose who I've become. I just wish there were a machine that made me happy with who I am, whoever I am.....
Quote from: FrancisAnn on April 26, 2015, 04:50:43 AM
Yea it's strange stuff. Makes me want to try black nail polish sometimes even though I'm a red nail polish girl. Seriously I do not think it affects you unless you allow it to. I feel more calm, focused & more feminine which feels good & normal for me.
How frightening! Black nail polish?!? This is making me rethink hrt.
Quote from: a112 on April 26, 2015, 04:44:18 PM
How frightening! Black nail polish?!? This is making me rethink hrt.
haha! I'm a black everything but silver nail polish kinda gal! ;)
Also, I was bad at math, directions, and remembering stuff before HRT.. still am! D: I'd be HAPPY if somehow hrt changed my brain for the better! haha!
Quote from: Laura_7 on April 26, 2015, 04:52:48 AM
There are people who report they see colours more pronounced than before.
Wow, this was exactly my experience, but I have never heard anyone else say this. What type of HRT are you talking (estrogen, testosterone, both?).
(sorry, I thought this thread was in the general transexual section. hopefully it is ok I posted).
Quote from: Damara on April 26, 2015, 04:48:29 PM
haha! I'm a black everything but silver nail polish kinda gal! ;)
Also, I was bad at math, directions, and remembering stuff before HRT.. still am! D: I'd be HAPPY if somehow hrt changed my brain for the better! haha!
I'm weird. I'm good at maths, but strangely terrible at directions and memory stuff. I just want to stay good at mathematics, since that is a field I have interest in! Super weird, right?
My hobby is mathematics, I find it helps me concentrate better. the only problem I found is getting started with doing a problem, I have to jump start the machinery. because the HRT tends to relax me quite a bit , but once I get started it's a lot better.
Nothing weird about that all. It shouldn't have any impact on that at all.
Mariah
Quote from: a112 on April 26, 2015, 05:05:57 PM
I'm weird. I'm good at maths, but strangely terrible at directions and memory stuff. I just want to stay good at mathematics, since that is a field I have interest in! Super weird, right?
The whole experience for me has been like living a poem of William Blake.
I have only been on hrt for just under a month and while I have noticed many positive changes to my mind (calmness, confidence and greater emotional self awareness) there has been nothing else. I install contemporary art for a living and noticed no lacking in my spatial reasoning skills, nor in my maths. If anything I am more confident and take charge at work. E has only given in my case.
Quote from: CollieLass on April 26, 2015, 06:46:30 AM
I found this research-paper interesting, as may some of you:
Well, this article is terrifying... And I had just decided to take T, dang it! :(
Not sure if I'm not supposed to post in here since I'm a guy but I saw the title of the thread, and was curious. Sometimes, ignorance may actually be bliss... :P
Quote from: Ian68 on April 26, 2015, 05:32:48 PM
Well, this article is terrifying... And I had just decided to take T, dang it! :(
Not sure if I'm not supposed to post in here since I'm a guy but I saw the title of the thread, and was curious. Sometimes, ignorance may actually be bliss... :P
Oh, no, Ian. We post back and forth all the time when we have something to add to a discussion. You trans guys can often speak to us from experience, even if it's experience you never wanted, and we can do the same for you.
Quote from: Brett on April 26, 2015, 04:58:31 PM
Wow, this was exactly my experience, but I have never heard anyone else say this. What type of HRT are you talking (estrogen, testosterone, both?).
(sorry, I thought this thread was in the general transexual section. hopefully it is ok I posted).
This was estro... but I'd say nevermind... if you experience this its real.
Might be some kind of relaxation of your body into this :) .
I was told that E may affect my memory, but I can't recall if it did or not ::)
The whole process of HRT is the mental change in how we percieve the world about us, this take time and when I heard this initially I pooh pooh this concept. I now understand and its been a facinating process. I know that my mind will continually evolve as a female. These changes have a theme that we all similarily go thru but within that theme we have so many variables.. Sometimes we imagine certain changes because we think it more female, we want reassurance ... but we dont need it. Yes, for me, odors change, I am acutely aware of the small of men, never noticed before. My taste in music has changesd somewhat. BUT my mind is still is good in business, maybe better, because I have clarity.
Its a wonderful journey of undersatnding ourselves, enjoy....
Quote from: Dee Walker on April 26, 2015, 07:44:39 PM
Oh, no, Ian. We post back and forth all the time when we have something to add to a discussion. You trans guys can often speak to us from experience, even if it's experience you never wanted, and we can do the same for you.
The site is better because we do share space and ideas. Not sure how much to make of that very tiny study but it does suggest Ian will get a bigger brain while mine is shrinking, along with other organs:-) Size does not correlate with efficiency and capability however.
In analysis of myself I reckon the following:
Become more social
Become more emotional (massively big time)
Become more daring (doing big fair rides and crazy skiing antics)
Become less shy
Become more composed when speaking to Audiences
Become softer and more tolerant
What hasn't changed; driving fast; liking red wine... ooh OK, all wine!; ability to remember Jokes!!!!
L Katy :-*
I worried about something very similar before starting HRT. My job depends on my ability to think, and I need the money. I found no detectable difference in my work, but did reach a point where I could barely work at all due to depression caused by not transitioning.
I've have a vague recollection of reading about someone transitioning at university and finding the technical course they were studying no longer interesting, and changing to something else. I can understand how that might happen. In my case I'm way past that and not about to change careers at this point.
Quote from: a112 on April 26, 2015, 04:40:12 PM
I'm just so afraid I might lose who I've become. I just wish there were a machine that made me happy with who I am, whoever I am.....
Its hard to explain, but I never worried about about losing who I was. It's always been about very pragmatic issues around money. I don't care if my interests change, so long as wherever I end up I'm happy.
I haven't noticed any changes in my reasoning abilities, in fact the increased clarity from the hormones have helped with memory recollection quite a bit. I am also much better in a group environment, being better able to process the ideas of others in the group and combine their ideas with mine to come up with solutions. This happened immediately when starting hormones and has continually gotten better. Since I quit my engineer job its hard to gauge right now,when I start school again in the fall I will have a better idea of this impact.
I honestly don't see any of my mental skills as being any different, but I've always been able to do things like multitask which is supposedly a female trait. I had low T most of my life though so that may explain at least some of it.
Quote from: Tessa James on April 27, 2015, 04:14:21 AM
The site is better because we do share space and ideas. Not sure how much to make of that very tiny study but it does suggest Ian will get a bigger brain while mine is shrinking, along with other organs:-) Size does not correlate with efficiency and capability however.
In this case, you're exactly right that size does not correlate with efficiency. There is the encephalization quotient (brain volume to body mass ratio) that is correlated with intelligence, but it has no bearing on sexual dimorphism within a species (hence why females of a given species, which commonly have volumetrically smaller brains are no less intelligent that males of that species).
My concern is really with the verbal fluency skills. Statistically speaking, I have high verbal fluency for someone of my demographic, and I am terrified of losing even a small fraction of that - even if I experience a coincident gain in spatial ability (which is also higher than average for a female of my age/ education).
Certainly, this warrants further inquiry but I'm not going to write off taking testosterone yet, especially given that I have no intention of taking it for longer than 18 months (and probably no more than 12) due to other concerns (including the desire to retain reproductive potential in case I want to use a surrogate later on.
Hmm... Into the scientific literature I go!
At least one counter to the earlier paper:
"While no significant differences were
encountered with control women before testosterone
administration, androgen administration was
clearly associated with an increase in spatial ability
performance, sexual arousability, and aggression
proneness (the self-imagined preparedness to act).
However, we have seen no adverse effects of testosterone
administration on aggression or on sexual
behavior in female-to-male transsexuals. Verbal
fluency tasks were not consistently affected
[47,48]." (Gooren et al., 2008. J. Sex. Med.)
These are important reasons why transition with HRT should to be thoroughly understood and recognized for the benefits and potential risks. There are profound changes that we experience and there is not a double blind study being done for each and everyone of us. We make educated guesses, extrapolate and hope for the best.
It is challenging to know and parse out what changes are due to the medication and those that may be a more comprehensive response to the dramatic and largely positive feelings of relief, acceptance and all that our new life encompasses. I know several folks, one an engineer, who fear any loss of ability and will not consider HRT or an out transition. As we often say, YMMV but this is a very welcome and positive experience for this girl with a mind at peace.
I am so looking forward to HRT (and I'll get boobs, and hopefully hips and a butt :) )
Thanks so much, ladies! Sorry for the unintentional bump. I just had to voice my appreciation for all the in-depth comments. It honestly really means a lot. I have been busy, else I would have replied sooner!
Quote from: rachel89 on April 27, 2015, 07:40:51 PM
I am so looking forward to HRT (and I'll get boobs, and hopefully hips and a butt :) )
Yes, yes, yes !
After 2 1/2 years medical research on effects of Hrt, am really looking forward to this.
Opened the genie bottle at 65 and didn't realise that that you cannot put the genie back.
There is a consistent theme that runs through all of these studies and the differences in male/female brain size and associated regions is very illuminating.
I already fit the female stereotypes about females being bad at math, directions, and driving, and I'm pre-HRT. This didn't start when I realized I was a transsexual, it's been that way my entire life.
Quote from: rachel89 on May 06, 2015, 05:38:32 PM
I already fit the female stereotypes about females being bad at math, directions, and driving, and I'm pre-HRT. This didn't start when I realized I was a transsexual, it's been that way my entire life.
Rachel, I don't know the extent of your issues with the things you've mentioned but you may want to look into something called Dyscalculia.. It's a math disability. I was diagnosed with it in high school and it affects all of the things you listed.
Well I can say I used to be very good at doing complicated math in my head and I was also very good with sizing things up visually.... Like say looking at a nut or bolt and knowing what size wrench would fit it ect.... Not so anymore and I feel like its more than just not using those skills particularly when it comes to math but I do feel my "spatial ability" or whatever has definitely changed as well...
I notice a huge improvement in my sense of smell for better or worse, some people, some people, but men in particular smell nasty LOL
Ive also noticed that I seem to hear better, music just sounds better to me and intricate details are easier for me to isolate and enjoy.... Its like I can have a much more intense focus on all the individual parts like say the drums and the bass/rhythm while still being able to fully experience and appreciate the melody of the vocals or guitar and keyboards ect... What used to all just sound good as a whole now has many more dimensions to it and I noticed this within my first 2 weeks on HRT 8) Ive liked music my whole life and while my tastes haven't really changed old favorites have a whole new meaning... While Ive always been emotionally involved with some music I also find that Its much more intense now as well :) It was a very unexpected but welcome effect 8) I also don't seem to tolerate loud noises or music nearly as much as I used to, I just don't want or need it as loud to appreciate it...
Visually I do seem to have a better ability to appreciate colors and subtle differences in tone as well as textures, everything just seems brighter... I never really appreciated colors before and actually just preferred dark boring greys and I had no clue how to coordinate colors at all.... This I heard many times from women in my life LOL... Well thats no longer the case because I get complemented all the time now on my taste in clothing and style and it just seemed to come naturally to me ;)
Ive always been a pretty cold, super rational, logical person, very withdrawn and shy.... While Im still a lot like that I am more emotional, warm and empathetic for sure and even more sociable ;)
Oh please. We all have unique and personal preferences, tastes and desires. I am one of those who love the scent of a woman and the scent of a hot man too. Our olfactory senses and preferences need not be couched in terms that dump on half the worlds population. Odors are a natural feature of being human and our long history of perfumes, lotions, deodorants and concessions to cover up and eliminate those natural signals do us a disservice, IMO.
I am interested in the emotional aspect of HRT effects. Sometimes I have been accused of "acting like a woman" when I get angry (I act like a male >:( too when I get angry sometimes, and can turn into someone you wouldn't want to know, ->-bleeped-<- testosterone), but unless I get past a certain breaking point, people say I act "bitchy" or refuse to talk with the person making me angry. I am kind of looking forward to being more in touch with my emotions and being able to show on the outside what I feel on the inside. I became more emotionally expressive once I started transitioning, but I realize that hormones also play a part in this.
I am very bad at math, and I always have been, but I can still parallel park a tractor-trailor. So my driving ability is above average and always has been. I know that hormones have changed some things that appeal to me, but as far as I can tell there has been no actual gain or loss of any brainpower.
Estradiol is known to increase certain kinds of synaptic activity. It also affects the type of signaling in the brain. Nonetheless, basic abilities, even if affected by taking hormones, are the results of far more things than hormones alone. I am aware of some spatial perception changes that became noticeable in the first few months of taking hormones, though they have since become my "new normal" and I have to concentrate quite hard to still perceive them. This has not my altered my ability to mentally manipulate things like 3D objects, as you get in tests.
There have been shifts in thinking and reactions. Part of that is clearly emotional change. The biggest change by far was in resolving many of the psychological co-morbid issues I had and focusing my central issue, which is discomfort with my body.
I always was a math disaster and still am. No change whatsoever!
Quote from: SarahBoo on April 26, 2015, 05:28:52 PM
The whole experience for me has been like living a poem of William Blake.
What is now proved was once only imagined.
i was worried i might not be able to work (i love work) but Im pretty sure women make just as good astronauts and architects as men and outperform guys in school rather a lot.
im sure if you got a straight nonTG guy and hooked him up to HRT it would do odd things to his brain and mind, but i think since we are here some part of our brains is already in some structural sense female so..
i think itll be ok.
I believe I may have been the person who posted about my reversing skills;
I have been on low dose HRT (Oestrogen only) for a little over 2 years and HRT has defiantly changed my Mind and thinking too:
Some things that I have noticed are:
1. Driving skills have deterioated. I learnt to drive in London - Driving around Hyde Park Corner one learns aggressive driving skills. I also lived in Athens for a year a number of years ago and drove a car - again aggressive skills needed. Now after 2 years on HRT I am rather timid by comparison. The number of times I have left the hand brake on has increased dramatically - luckily I just changed cars and my new one sounds an alarm to remind me, but I am still doing it. Also I was pretty good at reversing into Parking spaces, but my skill seems to have evaporated.
2. I am constantly wanting to check my makeup in my mirror in the visor. A couple of times Male drivers have hooted at me, because I was doing my mascara or lipstick! (I would never have dreamed before of looking at my face whilst in the car!
3. I have become a lot more more social, especially with other women.
4. I have become very emotional as I seem to break out in tears all the time. I was listening to a favourite piece of music in the film Le Concert and I had tears streaming down my face (and ruining my eyeshadow!)
5. I used to be a dominant male in conversation with men, always interrupting and wanting to get my point in. Now this seems completely alien to me. In fact I fell rather shy at saying much (especially when its with a bunch of men) and I feel that I need to be submissive in these conversations, only speaking when being asked to contribute. Recently I was with a male friend in London when he met up with a group of his other men friends. He introduced me as female friend of his. I was dressed really nice in a pair of new heels and a pretty dress and we met these guys in a local pub. They were talking about the stock market and football and I just had my hand on his shoulder and just kept looking up at him (fluttering my eyelashes) and felt very happy to be just demure and pretty submissive. At one stage one of the guys asked me about whether I invested in shares. I said No (and said I leave all that stuff to Peter! and then I smiled sweetly up at Peter. He is 4" taller than me even in heels) - the chap I was with. Thats completely opposite of what I would have done before HRT.
4. I have definitely become a lot more softer in outlook and much more tolerant of other peoples feelings.
5. I believe I have become more empathetic especially with other women. The women in my life that know I am on HRT have defiantly noticed this calmness in me.
6. My interests have changed. I love shopping especially for clothes, shoes, handbags etc. I love going to the Beautician ,. All of this stuff before was completely the opposite, since I was never an outwardly feminine boy (except when I was in my early teens! and my clothes sense was virtually non existent.
7. I also really love Girly flicks. I just watched the Devil wears Prada at the weekend. I just devoured the film and kept looking at all the different outfits. This was never before one of my favourite films as I was previously into War Movies - which rather bore me now. Mind you the girly flicks normally have me in tears at some point
8. My reading habits have changed as I really now love a good love story in a book. Before it was Police and Spy novels.
9. I really now value being with a group of women (cis females) and feel very relaxed in their company. When I transitioned before, I had a relationship over many months with a group of women all in professional jobs where we met every fortnight for a meal and drinks and social get together (women only). The first time (my girlfriend had introduced me to the group explaining that I was undergoing a sex change and living full time), they were at just curious and asked me a lot of questions, but by the second time we met I was just accepted in the "sisterhood" and it was no holds barred in the conversation (men, Sex, fashion, make-up, more men etc). I felt very liberated
10. Mentally after being on HRT again for over 2 years I feel very natural wearing a skirt or dress or tight skinny jeans, but if I have to dress as a male for some work meeting, I feel very uncomfortable!. In facts its funny when I go out without mascara or lipstick I feel sort of a bit naked!. Its a strange emotional thing!
Judith
Estrogen just makes me feel normal. My body has needed it for so long since puberty really. I never liked or wanted any other wrong hormones.
Things have turned a corner for me. Not a bad one, but it has been unexpected.
It is a question of identity.
15-18 months ago, when I was getting approved, there was no doubt I was identifying as female. I had been for a couple of years.
I have in fact watched my gender identity become more fluid, and less decided since being on HRT. To be honest, I haven't identified as female for a while. But nor male. I basically feel in-between.
So, I got my head around that. Rolled with it really. I never feel like it wasn't appropriate for me to have transitioned, as I feel so much better in general. It has been the permission I needed to get to know myself.
Now, at 12 months, I realise that something else is going on. Not only is my gender identity fluid (which I am well aware of by now) ... but my identity in general is in flux.
I can be ... very different, in different situations. I alluded to this in another thread. I am one person with several identities. Not only that, but those identities ... have slightly different gender identities.
Now I don't think HRT is doing this, of course. But it has ... given me opportunities to see it.
I am fine. I am still adjusting to ... accepting what is going on. But I will make it work.
I'm just on testosterone blockers but can already tell you I am much more calmer, happier and able to focus on task's at hand better then before.
Quote from: a112 on April 25, 2015, 11:21:01 PM
My apologies if something of the sort has been posted in the past, which I'm sure it undoubtedly has. My question is whether or not there are any changes to certain aspects of intelligence, particularly mathematics and spatial visual acuity, that comes associated with hrt. I've read someone's anecdote in which this particular person stated that she was no longer able to park as well as she once did. I can't quite tell whether this is just kinduva psychosomatic thingy or if it's a legitimate side effect of prolonged estrogen use. Halp!
Their is nothing reason why estrogen would cause you to get worse at math. I don't know where u are getting this idea actually. Maybe from the "science" done way back where they used to say that men's brains are naturally better at math and that they have a better spatial skills or whatever. This has been discredited as real science, and most of the differences between men and women brainwise are from upbringing and being told what actions men are supposed to do and which ones women are supposed to do. So when a women conforms to societies gender norms she is told to focus more on language and reading and less on math. Vise versa for men. Spatial skills are usually honed through activities like video games, sports, or driving vehicles. Since most of these things are considered masculine activities, women who conform to what society says is feminine are at a disadvantage in these areas.
I have heard estrogen aids in memory though. I haven't noticed any difference.