I used to be a Conservative Christian 4+ years ago. I use to ignore anything about myself which is or could be true. I spent most of my adult hood on the side of the fence that disagreed with all LGBT People. I even used to have a problem with those who I later learned were intersex or transgender. I used to believe they were all making a choice and being the most vile form of evil you can imagine, selfish and abusive people I thought. Misguided and lost people who I should associate with at all I thought. I would have never hurt anyone LGBTQQI but I would have never been your friend. :embarrassed:
When I was 27 I started becoming more aware of my female side, not really knowing what I know now, that I am a two spirit person who happens to be taking hormones and transgender and loving it. But that did not really happen until 2011 really. I had cross dressed occasionally over the years, always was a gentle soul for the most part, but lacking a joy and a happiness that even fellow shipping with other Christians and taking up my cross could not fill.
Now that I am in this happy place, which came from years of therapy, discernment, discussion,articles and prayer, I am strangely at a strange place. That place where I remember how it was to be an overly fundamental Christian, to be uneducated and misinformed, to have had never had a friend that was LGBTQQI. Today I am stronger and have a stronger foothold as a more progressive Christian. I say more because, there are some things I am still conservative about. But being LGBTQQI or any variation thereof is not one of them. I would then have to hate myself, which I won't do nor would I ever go back and hate or despise others. :-X
Funny though is that now, even though I never attacked anyone for any reason, keeping my opinions to myself about what I felt, having made a switch am being attacked. I am quite amazed at the lack of logic and compassion and information that is coming from some people. I don't want to berate these people myself, but let me just share with you some of the things said to me, in response to what I had said. Let me then go on to comment about the comments. I will leave all relevant data out like names, websites links etc etc.
It starts out wonderfully helpful and very loving like I expect servants of Christ to be. Bear with me here it is a bit of text but I will shorten it best I can.
Responses to me will be bold.QuoteIs it wrong of me to be taking Hormone Replacement Therapy in addition to taking Lithium, to allow my mind and body to match up with my spirit? My family thinks I have walked away from God. What they don't understand is that I am treating a medical need. They also don't understand that I feel 500X better than I ever have in my life. I have mild androgen insensitivity syndrome which makes me intersex. I am also what Native American Tribes would call a two-spirit, a blend of masculine and feminine qualities. I can tell you before when I had mostly testosterone running around in my endocrine system i felt either aggressive and angry, overly happy and thinking about sex all the time and depressed at times. Now I still have bad days like everyone else but I feel so much better.
So what I am asking is, why would the church, my family and God want me to stop taking something that is making me feel better? Allowing my body to look the way it should and allowing myself to be a better person towards other people?
Am I sinning here and doomed to hell and doomed to lose my already given salvation simply because of taking medicines and hormones?
Quote(Person A)
Possibly because they are more concerned how this might reflect on them or "their" church, than they are about you.
Quote(Person B)it doesn't sound like your doing anything wrong. ppl take medicine for health issues mental disorders and much more and usually it turns out to be better for them.
Good start right? I was really impressed here, I had been to this place before to seek answers, so it made my heart happy to see these responses. So I thought to myself "wow things have changed, people are starting to understand, like I am" So I wanted to be more clear so I pressed the matter further.
QuotePeople would also consider me to be Transgender, simply because I look on the male side, my voice is in between. I was medically given by a Doctor at birth a male birth certificate. Later though I had 2 endocrinologists discuss with me about why I did not develop exactly as other males or females. I am hoping that you can all understand. I have always had low testosterone before, underdeveloped genitalia and a feminine nature. But because I have allied myself with the United Church of Christ church (among other things) I am now something to be shunned and told that I am abomination and a freak. I came here before once on the forums to get some support and answers. Last time I got lots of bible versus and also scolding. I pray that does not happen now.
All I can say to you is that, there are no demons here, no possession going on. Maybe oppression (but everyone gets that at times) I know that the Holy Spirit resides within me and i also know I have a daily battle against my own flesh.
Quote(Person A)Scolding? for what seeking help? Listen God made you the way you are because to him you are beautiful, it doesn't matter what other ppl think when they look at you because they don't really see what is there they see with the fleshly eyes not God's
Quote(Person C)Nice to see you here! Instead of aligning yourself with some Group, sect , denomination, I FIRMLY believe if you seek the One who Was Crucified for you, there you will Find your Answers, at the Foot of the Cross, is where you will find His Answers for you, Indeed, Today you will find a wide variety of Answers from this group to that group, Truth is Found in a Person, the Person of Christ, God manifest in the Flesh, In HIM you find Mercy, Grace, Love, Strength, and Power, and by Him you will find the answers you are seeking.. nice to see you here!
Quote(Person B)sunshine I think if your looking for a loving church and a group of believers that actually care and listen help you can let us be your church.
Quote(Person D)God bless you sister. May the Lord guide you. (first, sorry for my bad English, i usually never answer on forums) And let you heal from your past abuse. I will surely not lecture you about what the bible says about gender and all that. You already know all that and I bet you've heard enough to teach all of us about it
However it takes a turn for the worse here. I think the whole idea about what denomination I am in starts to sink in for some folks. Also I mention that our pastor is lesbian. Perhaps though it was because I decided I was comfortable enough in showing some pictures of myself, this is I think even starting to turn on more sirens in peoples heads. Regardless of whether the staff there had let me register as female or not. A Mistake, but one I am glad I made, because here is what follows: (Well it does start with a few good responses)
Quote(Person E)Beautiful! God loves you and does not turn away those who diligently seek Him. In fact he loves them all the more who WANT to be part of his family. I'm on medication. For many reasons mentioned, I tried for years to cut them out. It doesn't work. A still, small voice told me to "Take your medication". I listened for I believed it was God. The healing takes place in all manner of ways. God created doctors, too! Love ya!
Quote(Person F)Genetically, are you male or female? If you have MAIS, the answer is the former.
So are you taking hommonal therapy to "be" a woman? If that is the case, that is why your church is rejecting you. They shouldn't. They should counsel you, love you, fellowship with you. But you are a man, as MAIS is only diagnosed in males.
You have identified on here as female. Are you being honest? Or are you being wishful?
I hate to bring up stuff like this, but you have couched your post in psycho-medical language and I don't think most on here have understood what you said. As a doctoral candidate in psychology and addictions and family therapy counselor, I'm asking these questions so as to know how to best answer your. Thanks in advance for your response, and God bless.
QuoteI am a two spirit who happens to have MAIS or Partial....There's no real way to know which according top both endocrine doctors. I am transgender because I am taking hormones and because I know that humans are not always one gender in this world. I know I am both and have come to peace with God and myself. Asking me to stop hormones now would be like asking me to rip off my own arm almost.
Quote(Person D)Yes, you are right (Person F)
I did not get, at first, that you are actually born male (maybe I read it a bit fast at first). However, my comment is still almost the same : you know the word of God about homosexuality. And I will surely not repeat it to you. I did not know that the medication was hormonal stuff to let you become a women.
I don't agree with having a lesbian pastor... but I'm not in your shoes. What should I do? Start a hating debate? Judge?... Well, i don't want this to be use as an other rejection. I think you probably have had enough.... so... Romans 12 is still cool! God bless you! Hope you'll be ok.
Quote(Person E)Shawn, life is full of two things, how you feel about yourself and how people react to you.
You need to sort out the first part, to understand what you want to be. The obvious problem you have is you are not a definitive identity, and have a confused perception of what you are and what you want to identify yourself as.
What you are describing in your family and church is ignoring where you are and just wanting simple answers.
Until you find a place of peace and work for that place you will not know what to do next. If you start therapy, find a place of significance and resolution that is a good thing. The problem you have is your manic depression or bi-polar episodes which might be distorting your perception of what is happening.
The bible condemns sexual activity outside marriage. But what you are talking about is gaining your identity, which is an important step. I hope and pray you find a place you are happy with.
QuoteWell I am not a gay male. I am still attracted to women which is natural for me. I am not Confused at all and this is not a issue which relates to being bio polar except it is helping me deal with my depression and body image issues. My family had done more than ignore me...me mom head out right abused me and said things no person Christian ore otherwise would or should say. I left a video on you tube but won't share that here that occurred.
I was not born a male...a doctor Simply call ed me male in 1972 according to genitalia....that is not what defines gender....hormones internally and also how your mind thinks and develops. I don't think like a male or a female per say. There's like 20+ intersex conditions that occur that I'm aware of on top of transgender.....but let's not bring up sex or orientation please add that's not what I'm talking about
Quote(Person F)I'm sorry, Shawn, but God doesn't make mistakes. You are male. No two ways about it. Your DNA test would prove you have one X and one Y chromosome. The physical appearance of your genitalia is due to MAIS, not your chromosomal makeup.
So you are coming on here asking us to bless, essentially, your desire to be a woman. We cannot do that. Your church cannot do that. If you continue along this path, you are inviting spiritual difficulties into your life that will manifest themselves as emotional, psychological, and personality issues. You probably already have many of these, and the reason is you have chosen to deny who God has made you to be.
If you want to get serious Christian counsel and come to grips with who you are, we will be more than willing to help you. But you are not female genetically, and you have only forced yourself into a feminine personality by denying God's creation of you. If you insist on presenting yourself as female, you are going to find a very difficult time here.
Sorry to be blunt, but that is how it is. God bless.
OK let me now comment on some of these comments. You see what has happened here. As soon as I brought the issue to the level of being transgender and also in support of the LGBT Community, this is when the sirens go off in peoples heads. a literal hot topic button to press (not that I was pressing it repeatadley).
Notice also the combination of what little science they are aware of combined with rugged doctrine. Notice how I am being told I am going to be unhappy and have psychological problems if i don't get off of this path.
IT IS BECAUSE I AM ON THIS PATH THAT I AM HAPPIER AND MORE WHOLE...why would you want me to get off the path???!@!! ???
Quote(Person D)But becoming a woman? You're not. You may have a lot of feminine in you, but that doesn't make you feminine. That makes you more feminine than most males. Okay? No problem there. But, you're pushing the envelope on what God gave you to change it to what you want. Yes, problem with that. Going to hell? Again, I don't know. Never will unless we meet on the other side. This isn't an either/or. This is one person with a different set of circumstances than most of us get. That's not God's mistake, but you're treating it like it is and you're out to fix his mistake.
You're a guy. Granted, you're a guy that would be the type of guy most gals could relate to easier, but a guy nonetheless. I'm a gal that most guys can relate to better, but I'm a gal nonetheless. So what? I am what I am and you are what you are. Stop hiding it.
Taking the HRT is hiding it. I have no idea what the lithium is for. It's usually for bipolar, because mood is unstable, but I suspect your mood is unstable because of the abuse and the people you hang with (whether they're telling you you're going to hell, or whether they're telling you the rest of the world is nuts, but you're okay. Both types should be avoided at all cost.)
See This is thing I have personally come to learn for myself. We live in an imperfect world. I am not blaming God or trying to fix God's mistakes, I am trying to make better a genetic difference, a imbalance between body and mind. I am trying to heal my inner soul. Since when did I have the power to fix holes in the Universe? I am just a human being doing the best with what I have, no blame going anywhere. I like being a two spirit. I think I have a special purpose seeing the male and female side of life. So many windows have opened to me. It is a blessing. Not a curse. At least to me.
QuoteThere are women wIth xy chromosomes that have Cais ...they develop fully female voice and all save for internal gonads...and no womb. I developed partially female....So I'm not accepting your lack of information. God doesn't make mistakes...but humans are imperfect now...Also If you study scripture intersex people were talked of. I know who I am and I know that God has blessed me.
I think I will stop here at this point. No more arguments from me...I had 4 years of therapy and counseling from various people. I took a giant leap to be honest. Again I will just let go and let you figure out what two spirit is. Ask just about any native American tribe. God bless.
As you can see I was starting to get emotionally tired and drained. Now My hot buttons were being pushed and I was beginning to lose my patience. I let it go for a bit and watched the responses roll in.
Quote(Person G)Genitalia can be deceiving. DNA isn't.
Quote(Person H) god had a plan for you, you need to do what you think it right for you, it doesn't matter what other think or do. when you love god and yourself people will follow your example. people need to love you for who you are. other wise they don't really love you, the love the idea of you.
**a little bright spot in the responses**
Quote(Person D) I am very concerned that you are attracted to women, yet feel you need to become a woman. That is basically saying that not only did God give you the wrong genitalia, but he also made you gay. When in fact, you are a man attracted to women. That is perfectly normal. Changing your identity to female, then wanting to have a relationship with a woman is against God's plan. So why not just stay male?
You look very much like a man in the first pic you posted. You may think you feel feminine, but I have doubts that means you should be changing into a woman, if you still have male genitalia. Regardless of how you feel, and the limitations of hormones, I think you should NOT be headed towards gender reassignment, because that is just being transgendered, not intersexed.
Quote(Person D)Oh, and one last thing - this "two-spirit" and native spirituality are simply not of God! I was in Seminary with a native woman, full status, and she said native spirituality was demonic, and God set her free!
In other words, once again, all paths do not lead to Jesus Christ. You have been lied to about this.
QuoteUm sorry but DNA can also be decieving. I am not going to explain it further, but go look up Sexual Developmental Disorders. Try telling a person who developed female but without a womb and a normal vaginal area and yet still looks sounds and appears female from birth, with XY Chromosomes, that they arent a woman, go on tell them. Also try telling an XX male they are not a man. Different condition than CAIS, but again go look it up.
I did not force myself into a feminine personality at all whatsoever! I have been feminine since I was a young kid. I even got bullied, beaten and teased for being feminine and gentle. What would you like me to do? Embrace a "masculine personality" ??? That would be a lie too if we are looking at it from your terms. I am just me, a blend of both masculine and feminine. Also let me repeat myself, would you have me stop taking HRT in the form of estrogen and Testosterone blockers, have me stop taking this, only to go back to where i was before, depressed, aggressive and thinking about sex as well as losing this wonderful peace i have now. You want me to be something I am not.
I'm not running away from my male traits...just pointing out what it's better now. I wad consumed by sex...now God has set me on the outreach to be free off sexual sin. I wasant having sex but relieving myself all the time with porno thoughts. Your not me....you don't have the insight or the right to tell me who I am...only God does. I am seeking the churches opinion on scripture and doctor so that a friend and myself can understand better. Do you know how the bible gets explained? God chooses people to help others get the intention behind the scripture....without pastors we would be a little more confused.
Quote(Person I)Shawn, I am a pastor, and I know the Bible. I also have worked extensively with the mentally ill, especially those with bipolar disorder. It sounds to me like you have chemically castrated yourself with this hormone treatment, which I am not sure if that is the Biblical answer.
QuoteLikewise, you're trusting people to tell you that two spirits and becoming a woman are brilliant ideas. How do you know? Because someone told you? I have done some research on what happens in the LBGT community. (And, no you aren't homosexual, and I do get that, so I'm not pointing fingers at you. I'm pointing fingers at what the LGBT community is actively hiding and it's killing many within that community -- literally. And, no, not AIDs. Much more than that. That is the see-able. It's the unseeable killing them.) They're hiding from themselves, from others, and from society. It is depression. It is suicide. It is homicide. It is close to genocide. It is that endless question you have no choice but to deal with yet. You're accepting information from someone else who is in a quagmire of her own -- your lesbian pastor. I hurt for her. I fear she will take you to where she is all over again.
At this point I am really done here, Ready to just give up and move on. So disappointed that It went this direction again like it had before in the past. Its kind of like hoping that once in a life time event that keeps saying it comes to your town, actually comes. I had deut 22 thrown at me though and bunch of other scriptures. I could keep posting here in this thread my responses vs theirs. I could but i will spare you all of that as it just keeps becoming more illogical with every post and then turns into wildly flung bible vs that i was trying to avoid having flung at me.
QuoteYep...I'm done...cause your causing me to stumble...I am wonderfully happy now and have a joy that was never there like it is now. I am not stopping hormones. I'm done being attacked with walls of scripture...I'm Done talking to you until for now. Please don't ask me again to stop something that has been a blessing.
But I have to add these ones in even though it pains me to mention them, they just are so without compassion or logic
Quote(Person F)I just reviewed the content of the thread since I quit participating. I have only one thing to say:
Shawn, you go very far afield to justify yourself as being "obedient to God" when you are not the least bit obedient, nor submissive as all followers of Christ must be to Him.
I will continue to pray for you, but not for the purpose of you being accepted as a woman. You are not. I will continue to pray for you to have your eyes opened and the delusion given you by evil people and spirits to be lifted. If you don't like that prayer, I'm sorry. It is how God has shown me to pray for you.
QuoteI will leave you with this...a video of my mom being a "good Christian" loving to all up front until....
Mom's abuse and anger towards me for being :
Quote(Person J)If your mother is abusive to you she is wrong to do so,whether she is a Christian or not.But that doesnt get you off the hook.We will all answer for what we have done. You are surrounded by people that are lying to you and telling you what you want to hear.You have been warned by more than one person on here,you will have not excuse to say "I did not know the truth". You are hearing it,you just refuse to accept it. You have been forewarned.I hope you change your mind.
Quote(Person K)Oh, sorry. I thought you wanted God. You'd rather decide based entirely on you. Wrong person on the throne.
Why couch the language to sound like your Christian? You've already decided you first above all else. There is no room for God. Bless has a meaning. No room for God, no need to bless.
Quote(Person L)
**In responses to my moms abusive video**
Is this more of your "wonderfully happy?"
You've just jumped out of the boat to Nineveh. The fish is coming. When you come out of that long hard ride you're facing and realize this never made you happy in the least, I pray God has people there to bring you to where you belong -- truly belong.
Quote(Person D)Shawn, I think, as I have said before, that bipolar disorder is your biggest problem. I have no idea if you are taking meds consistently, but I do know that many with the disorder are seeking a solution to depression, and that solution is hypo mania or mania. There is often not an in-between.
So you assign the blame for your depression on your past, your "feminine" traits that have not been accepted. You are on hormones that make you hypo manic, so don't wonder why you associate depression with circumstances, rather than the disease which you say you have.
So there you have it: This is where we are at in 2015, This is what I used to be in 2011, well maybe not this illogical and close minded but, I too would have started where they were. If I ever had any doubts before, (and believe me I prayed that God would show me any deception in the LGBTQQI Community if there was some, I never found any and haven't found any to this day. No what I found was myself, happy, full of hope and a better version of myself. I hope you all find that too. I pray we can all stick together and lift each other up whether it be in person or on this community. I need and you need I am sure understanding,wisdom, peace and love.
I know that i spent a good deal of the thread quoting myself in conversations with other people. I felt it was important that people see there is some HOPE there and some understanding, but it still can quickly escalate. Be careful when you talk to someone from church. I pray they can learn as much as you learn. God Bless.
Before my faith took a beating I was constantly told that God does not reside in a church, he resides within you.
Don't look to others to validate your faith, look within yourself.
Wasn't seeKing validation from them exactly...more like just testing to see where they are at. They are like Job's friends accusing Job of having done something to offend God. But I am glad I'm learning. I shOuld state that as far back as 2000 I had gone to my first lgbt counselor and center in Los Angeles. Short lived but a start
Does anyone here realize that there are 23 quotes PULLED OFF of another website OUT OF CONTEXT without the source?
It violates the TOS to link like that...I can't link it because of that.
The jury is still out on this. Leave moderation to the moderators, please.
As far as I can tell, it is not copyrighted material and may be fair game.
I googled one of the quotes verbatim to read the entire conversation. I think the snippets reproduced here are clear enough to follow the thought process, though a little difficult to read without knowing who is who. Maybe some Person A/Person B/etc. labels would help clarify?
Regardless Shawn (and you as well Dana :) ) - I hope you find the peace you seek and are able to reconcile who you are with your faith. I recently started attending services with a local United Church of Christ congregation. They have been both welcoming and affirming. I hope you find a place where you feel safe, accepted, and are able to grow spiritually.
Ok I will edit my posts with such titles as person a...bit later...so as to.keep conversations clear
The quotes have been ruled as a fair use of such. Whether or not it violates the rules on another site is irrelevant here.