I have made similar topics to this in the past so I wont waffle on.
Basically the more I think on it I come to this conclusion: I am 23 years old and if it could happen now I would prefer to turn into a female body right away and just go out there and live it. Now in the real world there is a couple of approaches in terms of thinking. The 'Naive' or wishful thinking is that, hey it shouldn't matter, you should just go with what you want and what would make you happy, so therefore that would mean transitioning and eventually becoming a girl.
This is the realistic and perhaps slightly pessimistic way I look at it . It will take a good 3 years if not more to have everything done, this counts into effect counseling, the HRT, the surgery etc. By which time I will be 26 hitting on 27. Now these years of my life are arguably the most important ones and having a transition will impede on alot of things I can do / how stressful life will be. Don't get me wrong, trans people obviously can do everything anyone else can but this is taking into account the, making friends will be alot harder (at least in 'normal' environments), work life (don't have a job atm but if I had one) would be more difficult, physically there will be challenges, mentally the challenges of all the new things I would have to do as a girl, well depending really but there are certain things 'expected' of woman that aren't of men.
If I were to go through with it and lets say I am a Girl by the age of 26, then great. I am still young, hopefully would be somewhat good looking and be able to enjoy the latter part of 'youth'. But what happens in the long term? I of course wont be able to have children, lets face it (no this isn't sexist to say as I consider myself female) men ARE treated better in society and dont have to worry so much about alot of things, men have an Easier life in many respects and aren't judged as much socially.
A good example is say, lets look at a middle aged man and woman (say 40). By this age men are still considered to still be in their 'Prime', most men still look pretty decent or similar to what they looked before, if they are single at this age it doesn't really matter to anyone an generally the older they get the more 'wiser' or respected they become.
During the teen years is a very awkward time for males, quite alot of socially awkward, usually looking ridiculous with the 'long hair' phase etc and with hormones going wild they for the most part are not considered as fortunate as their younger female counter parts. On the flip side I think youth is a girls best friend, no matter your background, looks etc. But for some reason in society as women get older they became 1) Less appealing to the opposite sex, 2) Don't really get a gained sense of respect, for example a 40 year old single woman would be seen as 'sad' or 'weird' by alot of people.
Is it really too blunt and in a realism sense to say that I would regret it as I got older?
I have struck out the previous text since it is a bit wafley and doesn't really get to the point. What I am trying to say is I am torn between too arguments.
The point
The whole point is simply this. I would prefer to be in a female body if I could just change straight away or even get on hormones straight away, the rest of my youth would be great and I am sure I would enjoy it but I am very aware that as I get older the joys of being a girl, like losing looks / attractivness , being expected to fill certain roles, social prejudice etc might make me regret it.
But if I stay in a male body, live secretly being a female (well not secretly since I have already come out) would that not be the better, safer and easier route? But would I regret that? And if I do take this path then how can I adapt things in my life to be more feminine so I can please that side without having too dress in drag for example :P
Maybe it's just easier i just go with what I know and say im gender neutral :D
You're asking questions that only you can truly answer.
I know that for me, continuing to pretend to fill a male role, to leave my body in a male configuration, were wholly unacceptable and eventually brought me to the brink of suicide.
But each of us is unique. You must find your own path. You can learn lessons from what others have done, but ultimately you must be the one to decide. No one else can do that for you.
Skylar 1992,
Thanks for posting this.
I'm sort of in the same mental carousel that you have found yourself stuck on. I think it is really a question of happiness and authenticity. Would being female (truly in your case) make you happy? Would transitioning make me happy? Would any sort of steps lead to our authentic selves?
These are the questions I've been asking myself a lot lately. I've just been doing the best that I can and going as slowly as I can.
Does that help?
The year of living in my male body after discovering my female identity was the longest year of my life. Though my dysphoria was social and not as much physical. Yes, I would have loved a female body, but I really wanted the world to see me as a female. Several times a day I heard my mind screaming "I'm a woman! Can't you see that?"
I know many people who are managing to live as a woman in a man's body. They're more patient than I am. I found it too frustrating.
There is of course no quick fix to your situation. Physically or mentally really. So don't try to rush it. Enjoy the transition years as you slowly become on the outside who you are in the inside! :). Maybe I'm too optimistic for my own good, lol. I want to make progress everyday myself but can't, so I use these words to ease my own mind at least, hehe.
Few gender variant people transition. They think about it sometimes, or find it attractive, but rarely do. Moreover, though there are always exceptions, they shouldn't transition. Why? Because the gender variant are trying to reconcile competing aspects of their psyche. Becoming one thing is at the expense of another. Even a compelling relative advantage is rarely enough to get past the risk, especially when middle path solutions work better for most anyway.
Transition is extreme. It's hard and virtually always entails losses (which can't be predicted.) Leave it to those who must.
It sounds like you're considering a lot how others will view you (which I can totally understand!). Ideally it would be an easy decision if it's about just being the real you. When others treat you with judgment or expectations because you're a woman, that's discrimination, so it shouldn't be a factor in the decision too much if you just want to be your true self. It's like, do you want to live your life in a mask and be treated better, or without it and be yourself and stand up for yourself?
\
I say that but I know it's not so easy. I think a lot about what others think of me too, and ... in whatever case, if I decide to be myself, which I want to, I'll be judged, so I need to learn to face that.. but I don't want to be judged.. grr.
And, in your wafflings you said that it's easier to be man, in regards to expectations and stuff. And I know that's not accurate, it's only easier for men who are able to stay within the mold (of masculinity). All other types of men get judged a crapton, and worse. The type of judgment and expectation is different, of course.
To be strategic, or to go with the heart? that seems to be the question..
???
Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 10, 2015, 05:51:58 PM
It sounds like you're considering a lot how others will view you (which I can totally understand!). Ideally it would be an easy decision if it's about just being the real you. When others treat you with judgment or expectations because you're a woman, that's discrimination, so it shouldn't be a factor in the decision too much if you just want to be your true self. It's like, do you want to live your life in a mask and be treated better, or without it and be yourself and stand up for yourself?
\
I say that but I know it's not so easy. I think a lot about what others think of me too, and ... in whatever case, if I decide to be myself, which I want to, I'll be judged, so I need to learn to face that.. but I don't want to be judged.. grr.
And, in your wafflings you said that it's easier to be man, in regards to expectations and stuff. And I know that's not accurate, it's only easier for men who are able to stay within the mold (of masculinity). All other types of men get judged a crapton, and worse. The type of judgment and expectation is different, of course.
To be strategic, or to go with the heart? that seems to be the question..
???
true i always say listen to your brain but in this case LiSTEN TO YOUR HEART.
One clue to knowing if transition is the right thing is not caring whether you pass, whether you lose a job or friends and family, whether your life turns stellar or suboptimal. For a MtF it's absolutely not about male privilege! It's not something you weigh in a balance. As for head or heart, ultimately it's neither. Identify exists below the consciousness. Those who transition often fight it the hardest and hate it the most.
As for living as a female in a male body ... well, that's a complex topic. I'll acknowledge the identity, of course, but it's also like having an egg that never hatches. You can only be so much of a thing without living it.
Quote from: LeaP on May 10, 2015, 11:11:25 PM
As for living as a female in a male body ... well, that's a complex topic. I'll acknowledge the identity, of course, but it's also like having an egg that never hatches. You can only be so much of a thing without living it.
This!! This!!
This is part of why I transitioned. I couldn't deal with "working around" my feminine self anymore. I wanted to live, not exist. I wanted to experience, not just wonder forever. And I am so glad I did.
Quote from: LeaP on May 10, 2015, 11:11:25 PM
As for head or heart, ultimately it's neither. Identify exists below the consciousness. Those who transition often fight it the hardest and hate it the most.
As for living as a female in a male body ... well, that's a complex topic. I'll acknowledge the identity, of course, but it's also like having an egg that never hatches. You can only be so much of a thing without living it.
It probably depends how you view what the heart is. To me you can't divorce identity from the heart.
Who we are at heart is the most important aspect of identity. I want to be (& love) who I really am, and be who I love to be :) <3
You are speaking philosophically. I am speaking psychologically. Yours is a lovely thought. I would love to agree with it but don't for the simple fact that so many people do not have their identity and heart in synchronization. I.e, they are separable.
Further, emotions and alignment may support identity but they do not create it. If they did, people would be morphing into all kinds of things they are not – and that does not happen. You are not a transsexual – a woman – because you have certain feelings or are inclined in a certain way.
The core of my identity is female. That is a matter of fundamental realization, not emotion. But it is nascent. Undeveloped. I have precious little experience in the world living as a woman. I did not grow up as one. I have not been treated as one. I have not had the privileges (and lack of privileges) that women have. I have not had my womanhood reflected back on me. I have been prevented from acting on it in most ways. Pre-transition, this is pretty descriptive of the reality of "living as a female in a male body." Now if you are going to transition without surgeries, that's another thing entirely. The majority of transitioners do so without surgery, but obviously do live as women.
Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 04:06:50 PM
You are speaking philosophically. I am speaking psychologically. Yours is a lovely thought. I would love to agree with it but don't for the simple fact that so many people do not have their identity and heart in synchronization. I.e, they are separable.
Further, emotions and alignment may support identity but they do not create it. If they did, people would be morphing into all kinds of things they are not – and that does not happen. You are not a transsexual – a woman – because you have certain feelings or are inclined in a certain way.
The core of my identity is female. That is a matter of fundamental realization, not emotion. But it is nascent. Undeveloped. I have precious little experience in the world living as a woman. I did not grow up as one. I have not been treated as one. I have not had the privileges (and lack of privileges) that women have. I have not had my womanhood reflected back on me. I have been prevented from acting on it in most ways. [...]
Actually, we're both speaking from our own view points and understanding :D (like everyone)
The heart goes deeper than emotions. Emotions carry something meaningful from within, yeah, but by themselves they're narrow, don't give the whole picture.
Identity is something that's both natural(/core), as well as something that you forge. When it's not in line with the heart, there's something that doesn't feel quite right.
There actually probably isn't much difference in our points of view, and really comes down to that what you call 'fundamental' is what I call the heart unheard. When you're not in touch with it, don't hear it, it seems like something is fundamentally wrong. When you are, you get more who you are at heart, and transitioning won't just feel like you're righting a wrong (and being happy
because you're what you're 'supposed' to be), but will feel like you're being true to who you love to be.
We're closer, to be sure, and I agree with much of what you said. There is still more than a semantic difference, however. To get around that, let me refine my terms a bit more.
First, "identity" is a term that's used broadly and when so used, as you indicate, connotes both things core as well as constructed ("forged"). "Gender identity" is an unfortunate term, because gender itself is an overloaded term. What I mean by identity aren't the things most people force into "gender" at all. Rather, because I see transsexuality as an intersex condition, the core of which we are speaking reduces to a body mapping instability. Not pure male or female in the cis sense, but a compound of both. There is a regrettable tendency in western culture to speak of the psyche as the reality and the physical as the illusion or overlay. But in fact we actually ARE both, compounded into something unique. Not even 1 + 1 = 2, but simply ... 2.
That we can look at the condition from partial perspectives helps us to treat the psychological conflict that arises, but it's important to note that the condition doesn't really change. SRS, FFS, hormones, etc. effectively mask the body mapping problem trigger, but still leave us (MtF) physically male in most ways. In essence, we resolve instability by introducing a countervailing imbalance. (I hope to be unbalanced soon ... LOL!)
Gender Dysphoria - real GD (see footnote), that is, not the usual stuff that passes for GD, is the only real manifestation of the condition itself, i.e., of the real, or combined "identity." That's not to say one can't understand their psyche as female, but again, THAT realization is lizard brain stuff. There are no aspects of the heart, of feelings and emotions, not even widely acknowledged sexually dimorphic biases and tendencies that are determinant that one's psyche is male or female in any given case. At some point, one simply knows whether their psyche is male or female. That can be apparent from early childhood or resolve later.
I harp on this because of the problems people have distinguishing and conflating being cross-sexed (transsexual) versus being gender variant. The most egregious result of using terms in the emotional space as it applies to transsexuality is that it encourages the spectrum concept and fosters the problem of the gender variant thinking they "identify" with trans women because of what they "feel." A friend recently put it this way (paraphrased): "These are people who are flirting with their femme side. Their saying the words IS their femininity."
(footnote) I would recommend a careful reading of the DSM 5, including both the diagnostic criteria AND commentary for Gender Dysphoria. Psychological fallout and various kinds of clinically significant distress aren't GD, they are part of the criteria FOR GD.
Lea, thanks for sharing your views. I can't say I understand them fully, but I'm still curious.
Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 05:54:04 PM
That we can look at the condition from partial perspectives helps us to treat the psychological conflict that arises, but it's important to note that the condition doesn't really change. SRS, FFS, hormones, etc. effectively mask the body mapping problem trigger, but still leave us (MtF) physically male in most ways. In essence, we resolve instability by introducing a countervailing imbalance. (I hope to be unbalanced soon ... LOL!)
So, up to this point, it sounds like you're saying that you consider yourself MtF not
necessarily because you have a female identity, but because of the mapping problem. Is that right?
Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 05:54:04 PM
[...] There are no aspects of the heart, of feelings and emotions, not even widely acknowledged sexually dimorphic biases and tendencies that are determinant that one's psyche is male or female in any given case. At some point, one simply knows whether their psyche is male or female. That can be apparent from early childhood or resolve later.
'simply knows' isn't better than 'feel' that you talk about later. What would you say is actually male or female psyche?
Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 05:54:04 PM
The most egregious result of using terms in the emotional space as it applies to transsexuality is that it encourages the spectrum concept and fosters the problem of the gender variant thinking they "identify" with trans women because of what they "feel." A friend recently put it this way (paraphrased): "These are people who are flirting with their femme side. Their saying the words IS their femininity."
I would be careful here, because your assumptions might be starting to lean towards dictating over the experiences, knowings, or psyches of others, and it's not that you can't have that opinion, but just that actually you really don't know what's going on inside them.
Well, I was just trying to understand what you were saying. If you feel like adding more, I'll read more :)
Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 11, 2015, 06:21:03 PM
So, up to this point, it sounds like you're saying that you consider yourself MtF not necessarily because you have a female identity, but because of the mapping problem. Is that right?
I'm cross-sexed because I have a body mapping issue. Post-grad developmental biology 601 (Blanchard notwithstanding). Transition direction (if any) is a matter of resolution. 10 years ago, I probably would have said better to be born cismale. And had someone asked, I might have amenable to fixing the problem in my head rather than the one between my legs (not that any such fix existed, of course). Post the meltdown and crisis I experienced several years ago, my core female identity has (re)asserted itself to where I can't grasp such a solution as anything but self-destruction. In short, I understand why I have been the way I have, why I kept trying to obliterate myself, why I have been socially averse, depressed, aggressive, etc. Understanding the problem has narrowed it - but also sharpened it.
You can't change your sense of your own sex. You can alter the body to (more or less) suit. Closest approximation, as one friend puts it. It's not only the best that can be done, it's the only thing that can be done. My problem is serious enough, sustained enough, and life-threatening enough to force the resolution. MtF.
Quote'simply knows' isn't better than 'feel' that you talk about later. What would you say is actually male or female psyche?
Last first: I have no idea. None at all. And neither does anyone else. Yet I know mine is. I don't feel it, I don't perceive it, I don't know how I know it. But I do. As I see it, I've essentially arrived at the equivalent of a cisnormal sense of myself. THAT is what sharpened the GD to a knife point. Mirrors, always distasteful, have become jarring.
QuoteI would be careful here, because your assumptions might be starting to lean towards dictating over the experiences, knowings, or psyches of others, and it's not that you can't have that opinion, but just that actually you really don't know what's going on inside them.
That's always possible, and I'm mindful to stay receptive. Your statement, while true (in non-pathological cases, anyway), however, is unhelpful. You cannot abandon the pursuit and still hope to offer support. I have a pretty good handle on what I'm dealing with. While I can't speak to the *experiences* of cisgendered CDs or gender variant people, I am pretty sure that their problem and their solutions are very different. That's an opinion backed by a lot of clinical experience (not mine, of course ... I'm not a psych practitioner) and a lot of emerging science.
Oh ok. I understand now :)
I agree with most of what you're talking about, the big difference (that we might disagree on) is the dysphoria being the determining factor.
Like you mentioned, the dysphoria can grow when you acknowledge what's really going on. And it did that for me too, when I really grew to understand how I felt (and realize when I talk about feelings, I'm not talking about temporary impulses), and the dysphoria became really bad, and I really wanted transitioning (don't have the means though), but just like you're talking about the 'approximation', to me it just wasn't enough, I knew I had to address a bigger issue in me. And I found a way that wasn't self-destruction like you mentioned.
That way was to acknowledge who I am inside, regardless of what my body is like. I still experience dysphoria, but most of the time, because I've changed how I look at my identity, I can say, this body does not reflect who I am, and be more and more ok with that.
Now, I'm able to be ...patient, let's say, and I know that if and when the transition for my body becomes available, I'll take it, but even that will not reflect who I truly am, so I continue to discover who I am beyond what shows, and acknowledge it for myself. It's part of honoring myself to move in the direction where the outside can come to reflect what's inside, of honoring who I am, it's just I don't have to be victim to dysphoria, it's not what defines who I am to be, that would be letting the negative side rule me, and I've intended to go beyond that. :)
Afterall, it's my goal to be happy no matter what, as that reflects who/how I want to be. And like I mentioned before, I'm not 'just' who I happen to be, I get to forge who I am too.
-Not to say it's easy ..:S .. and I still have lots to work on...