Had my first gym experience today. It was a women's only gym but apparently what they mean by that is vagina only gym.
Signed up for my free week and got shown around, no problems. The woman who inducted me was really nice. I felt comfortable enough to try a step class. My first ever, but I survived! That was the good part.
You know how you can work out the bitches pretty quickly? Had them spotted in an instant... in the weight equipment section. Got some rather unfriendly looks so I can only gather they had read me. That was the bad part.
When I was finished the step class, the woman who inducted my gave me my temporary membership card. Then she says in a hushed tone "I have to ask, it's just that our policy...do you have proof of surgery?" I was pretty shocked - do I tell the truth, tell a lie, or tell a really big lie and feign insult that she even dare suggest that I wasn't bio. I went with the lie, said yes I did, she said she'd need to see it, that some of the ladies had asked her (weight training bitches I'm looking at you), and she thought I was lovely but that she had to ask me. So that was the ugly part.
I'm pretty upset and disappointed. I gather the majority of the women there had no idea I was trans it wasn't until some cis privileged cows protecting their vagina only domain decided I was suss that the wheels fell off. I've decided I'm not going back. Even if I did have the documentation I don't think I would go back. What a disgrace.
How did they know you were a transgender? That is pretty insulting to ask you to prove you had surgery. i wonder how she would feel if someone asked her to drop her pants and prove she had female genitals. You certainly don't have a hint of male on you. I wouldn't know if i just saw your picture.
sam1234
Amazing!
My nasty side suggests contacted the gender centre and the alliance and let them know that the place is discriminatory.
Hugs Grace... Thats awful, have they not heard of discrimination!
I am so sorry it turned out a bad experience...
Geez... You certainly look wholly female... they must have xray eyes or extreme radar!!!!
L Katy :-*
So sorry to hear that they actually had the nerve to ask a question like that. They have no right to know that. I agree letting someone know about their discrimination is a must. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Cindy on May 06, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Amazing!
My nasty side suggests contacted the gender centre and the alliance and let them know that the place is discriminatory.
I'll be going to the Gender Center in a few weeks and will raise it then. I have a feeling NSW law gives them a legal loophole on the discrimination front. Nothing against the woman who asked me, I could tell she was embarrassed but jeeze I feel humiliated and sad.
Hugs Hon.
You were not humiliated you were discriminated.
Hey you have business opportunity! A gym for TG only! There are enough clients available in Sydney, surely.
Ugh. Can that gym. Try a different one :~s
Discrimination or no, it sounds like some nasty-pieces-of-work reside there ...
:(
I didn't know vagina spot checks were a thing at female gyms.
That is just utterly disgusting Ms.Grace, don't let them get away with this
Love,
April
It's not worth fighting if the people there will give you trouble either way.
Personally I would have disclosed up front that I was trans - just to clear the air, and know where I stand - before signing up :~o
I know that's not for everyone. But in my view, sometimes you need to play the game, in order to avoid these situations.
Quote from: SarahBoo on May 07, 2015, 12:13:25 AM
Personally I would have disclosed up front that I was trans - just to clear the air, and know where I stand - before signing up :~o
I know what you mean - and I thought about doing that. But figure if it's an issue for them and they believe they have the legal legs to reject women born with a penis then they should make it pretty clear in the sign up stage/contract about "disclosure". Anyway, it was a free trial, I trialled it and they suck.
Quote from: Cindy on May 06, 2015, 10:55:45 PM
Hugs Hon.
You were not humiliated you were discriminated.
Hey you have business opportunity! A gym for TG only! There are enough clients available in Sydney, surely.
Tick :icon_idea:
L Katy
Quote from: Cindy on May 06, 2015, 10:55:45 PM
A gym for TG only! There are enough clients available in Sydney, surely.
ha. Nice idea but I'm not
that enthusiastic about gyms. ;D
Besides I fear it would attract a whole lot of unsavoury ->-bleeped-<- types and how would you even screen for that? Then all of a sudden I'm doing exactly the same thing. ugh. :(
Haa good point on the last comment!
L Katy
Oh Grace!....I`m so saddened to read of this hurtful and exclusionary experience.
At times, people`s capacity to deliberately-hurt, can leave one speechless......I feel that such acts indicate a pitiable weakness of soul.
You have no such 'weakness' and this was but one horrible experience in your rich (and enriching) life.......Please don`t let their sad inhumanity bother you a moment longer.
Kindest regards,
Deb. :-*
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 12:21:31 AM
I know what you mean - and I thought about doing that. But figure if it's an issue for them and they believe they have the legal legs to reject women born with a penis then they should make it pretty clear in the sign up stage/contract about "disclosure". Anyway, it was a free trial, I trialled it and they suck.
Bah, there are plenty more gyms on the street, Grace. Some just come with a bad vibe. Maybe a mixed gym might be better. One of the things that would concern me about a single sex gym is that, by its nature, it's applying an exclusionist policy and would most likely attract some hyper-sensitive or militant types.
Still massively admire your courage for going!
Julia
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on May 07, 2015, 01:27:15 AM
Maybe a mixed gym might be better. One of the things that would concern me about a single sex gym is that, by its nature, it's applying an exclusionist policy and would most likely attract some hyper-sensitive or militant types.
Good point. A non-gender-specific gym, versus a gender-specific gym.
The 'girls club' never did have a good rep :~D
Quote from: Julia-Madrid on May 07, 2015, 01:27:15 AM
One of the things that would concern me about a single sex gym is that, by its nature, it's applying an exclusionist policy and would most likely attract some hyper-sensitive or militant types.
True. I guess I was hoping for an environment in which I could avoid scrutiny and/or being chatted up by men. Seems I got the scrutiny after all.
I'm so sorry to hear you had to go through that it's awfull. I hope the they give themselves lifelong backpain from carrying around the heavy burden of deciding who is or is not a woman based on their narrow minded 19th century puritanical mindset.
Maybe they should spend less time building their arm & leg muscles and excercise the rapidly shrinking muscle between their ears
Mod Edit - Some found part of the message to be offensive as a result the edit; TOS 5 and TOS 10
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 01:43:16 AM
True. I guess I was hoping for an environment in which I could avoid scrutiny and/or being chatted up by men. Seems I got the scrutiny after all.
Well maybe this could help some:
women sometimes have a feeling they are pursued by men.
So in a women only space they can feel more free of that ( some continue to feel pursued by women :)... a smile might go a long way in that case... ).
Well its up to you what you do... its difficult to say how they might react...
imo a bit of openness might help... also it might take out a bit of emotion, and help understand...
I'd say you don't do this to look at women...
you do it because you identify as woman...
and you are on hormone therapy which supresses masculinity...
and there are waiting lists for operations many months long...
and not everyone wants to undergo an operation...
you would give them a copy that you are on hormone therapy for x months...
One possibility would be to try this with this studio (maybe in writing),
another to try another studio...
if you try another you might look up some comments on reputations...
hugs
Quote from: Jayne on May 07, 2015, 03:33:59 AM
Maybe they should spend less time building their arm & leg muscles and excercise the rapidly shrinking muscle between their ears...
heehee! I'm considering a written response to the gym if they follow up with me at the end of my one week free trial... I think I might slot that in there somewhere.
To be honest this has shaken my confidence somewhat but I'm trying to not let it get to me or get me down. After that face slap I went out for lunch, it was a lovely day so I went to cafe in the nearby park and sat in the sun while I ate, then I went shopping to buy a pressie for my mother who I'm having lunch with tomorrow - at least the women at the local Body Shop love to see me which helped lift my mood!
Quote from: Laura_7 on May 07, 2015, 03:53:42 AM
I'd say you don't do this to look at women...
you do it because you identify as woman...
and you are on hormone therapy which supresses masculinity...
and there are waiting lists for operations many months long...
and not everyone wants to undergo an operation...
you would give them a copy that you are on hormone therapy for x months...
One possibility would be to try this with this studio (maybe in writing),
I might slot that into the letter too...
After the step class I was a bit wobbly on my feet - hadn't jumped around that much in a while!! But I still had presence of mind to give a little smile at any woman who looked my way. During the class there was this brief moment where I felt "this is exactly right" - pre transition I had done any number of yoga classes with all women and while I felt I was one of the girls I "wasn't" in the mind of those women... but in the class, for the first time ever I did feel that. It was great. But fairly fleeting obviously.
Even if I had had surgery I wouldn't be going back there with my "letter of proof", to be called out and doubted like that was utterly mortifying. Even if I was "with vag" I figure the close minded biatches there would be quite happy to out me to all and sundry like they did to the woman who inducted me. Not a safe space.
You might look up reputations of other studios...
its possible some are easy going...
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 04:05:58 AM
Even if I had had surgery I wouldn't be going back there with my "letter of proof", to be called out and doubted like that was utterly mortifying. Even if I was "with vag" I figure the close minded biatches there would be quite happy to out me to all and sundry like they did to the woman who inducted me.
Well there might just be some members who consider this "their" beat and look over some new members... cis or trans... and talk about it.
Its well possible management knows this... :)
Also depending on the time of day, there might be really different people there... its like in a public bath, where the kind of people present changes a lot during the day.
I wouldn't take it all too seriously .
hugs
Quote from: Laura_7 on May 07, 2015, 04:25:54 AM
I wouldn't take it all too seriously .
Well, I kind of am. I feel sorry for any other trans sister who might want to use that gym (or their franchised affiliates) if that's the kind of reception they can expect. And yes, I might have been really unlucky to encounter the one transphobe turf watcher in the entire club quite happy to out me but if I went back there I'd be forever second guessing who else might know or not, either through deduction or gossip or through complaining to management. Not a safe space.
And I'm taking it personally too. So I "prove myself worthy" to management, would they issue me with a "Proof of Vadge Badge" that I could flash to anyone who started looking at me askance? Yeah, no. Not a safe place.
Wow! Sorry to hear it, Grace.
Such behavior would be breaking the law in here in NJ. They wouldn't dare.
I should add that I totally understand that many women feel they need safe spaces, specifically male free spaces where they don't have to deal with men and the stuff that certain men who don't respect boundaries get up to. I understand and support that 100%. But it's attitudes that penis=man/vagina=woman that means all trans people get caught in the middle of that regardless of their genital configuration. I'm a woman who feels she needs a safe space too but being trans apparently makes some women see me as unsafe. :'(
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 04:36:57 AM
And I'm taking it personally too.
Well apart from taking appropriate steps to educate people...
don't forget your own fun... sometimes its better to keep a cool head, and not take things and persons too personal...
keep enyoing the sunshine, as you said.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 04:36:57 AM
I'm a woman who feels she needs a safe space too but being trans apparently makes some women see me as unsafe.
Well its a fear you might simply adress or talk about if necessary... now that you know...
hugs
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 06, 2015, 10:21:29 PM
Had my first gym experience today. It was a women's only gym but apparently what they mean by that is vagina only gym.
Signed up for my free week and got shown around, no problems. The woman who inducted me was really nice. I felt comfortable enough to try a step class. My first ever, but I survived! That was the good part.
You know how you can work out the bitches pretty quickly? Had them spotted in an instant... in the weight equipment section. Got some rather unfriendly looks so I can only gather they had read me. That was the bad part.
When I was finished the step class, the woman who inducted my gave me my temporary membership card. Then she says in a hushed tone "I have to ask, it's just that our policy...do you have proof of surgery?" I was pretty shocked - do I tell the truth, tell a lie, or tell a really big lie and feign insult that she even dare suggest that I wasn't bio. I went with the lie, said yes I did, she said she'd need to see it, that some of the ladies had asked her (weight training bitches I'm looking at you), and she thought I was lovely but that she had to ask me. So that was the ugly part.
I'm pretty upset and disappointed. I gather the majority of the women there had no idea I was trans it wasn't until some cis privileged cows protecting their vagina only domain decided I was suss that the wheels fell off. I've decided I'm not going back. Even if I did have the documentation I don't think I would go back. What a disgrace.
Ugh this sucks I totally feel you but Ima add my 2 cents. Although its wrong and ignorant, some people arent comfortable with it and still see us as male, especially if we have male genetailia. Yes our gender is female but without srs our sex is still male and I know its HARD to view it their way, but I kind of understand why some people will feel uncomfortable, especially for girls who choose to sign up in an all girls gym as they most likely did cause they felt uncomfortable with (penis). Not everyone is educated and not everyone accepts it and we must accept their decision. But if you were disrespected blatantly (called names etc) thats totally not tolerable.
Thanks, but just to be clear, I wasn't called names (at least not to my face). I totally get your point and I agree that some women will find the idea of someone with a penis in their midsts (a "man") would be disconcerting if they'd signed up for the all gal experience. The thing is, I'm not an entitlist, I just feel they should be more explicit that by "Women's Gym" they really mean "Women with vaginas and preferably "cis" in appearance if they happen to be trans Gym". Besides, it's not like I was waving my Itsy Bitsy teeny weenie around, I went to a lot of trouble to make sure it was extra tucked away and barely a mound even under gym tights. Try doing a jump class in that! :o That's real dedication! ;D
Anyway, I agree with Laura - obviously education is in order. But I also really don't feel like having to justify myself or my gender to them.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 07, 2015, 05:47:08 AM
Anyway, I agree with Laura - obviously education is in order. But I also really don't feel like having to justify myself or my gender to them.
You shouldn't have to justify yourself, maybe the gym should ask these weight lifters to undertake a sexuality test to make sure none of them are making women uncomfortable with their leering, methinks they have given a hint that they were "leering" at your body a bit too closely as proper tucking shouldn't give any clues.
Sorry to be late to the party - seems the most serious threads happen when I'm fast asleep.
1. I do NOT agree you need to disclose you are trans up front. It is none of their business. You are a woman and have a right to use women's facilities.
2. I would talk to someone as high up in management of the gym as I could and find out whether the it's an official policy or just the opinion of one employee to ask trans women about their down-below. Even if it's not a question of discrimination, saying to someone "cut yourself up or we won't let you in" is pure evil. I suspect this is a product of ignorance on the part of the woman who said that and not an official policy.
3. I would not wait. I would address this while it's still fresh in everyone's mind.
Hugs, Grace. Thank you for standing up for all of us.
I'm really sad that happened to you Grace. Well let them keep their nasty little girls' club then, I'm sure there must be other gyms around that don't have a vj only policy.
Hi Grace,
Sorry you had to deal with the genital door policy of whatever that gym was- it wasn't in RedFERN was it?
I don't know if this link is of any use
http://www.antidiscrimination.justice.nsw.gov.au/adb/adb1_antidiscriminationlaw/adb1_types/adb1_transgender.html
It does seem to suggest that this can be a bit of a grey area, with no court precedents:
The situation is more complicated for single-sex clubs. If you are a recognised transgender person you have the right to be a member of a single sex club for people of the gender with which you identify, in the same way as any other person of that gender. It would be transgender discrimination to refuse you membership because you are transgender.
If you are not a recognised transgender person the law is not quite so clear. Generally, it is against the law for any club to treat you unfairly for being transgender. The law says that a single-sex club can keep its status as single- sex if it admits a transgender person who identifies with the sex of that club
However, whether you are able to insist on attending the single sex club of either your birth gender or your identified gender is unclear. There have been no court cases on this part of the law yet that could provide interpretation. So if you are having trouble getting or keeping your membership of a single sex club, please contact the Anti-Discrimination Board for advice.
You were obviously far too good for them anyway!!
Quote from: rosinstraya on May 07, 2015, 08:51:27 AM
Hi Grace,
Sorry you had to deal with the genital door policy of whatever that gym was- it wasn't in RedFERN was it?
I don't know if this link is of any use
http://www.antidiscrimination.justice.nsw.gov.au/adb/adb1_antidiscriminationlaw/adb1_types/adb1_transgender.html
It does seem to suggest that this can be a bit of a grey area, with no court precedents:
The situation is more complicated for single-sex clubs. If you are a recognised transgender person you have the right to be a member of a single sex club for people of the gender with which you identify, in the same way as any other person of that gender. It would be transgender discrimination to refuse you membership because you are transgender.
If you are not a recognised transgender person the law is not quite so clear. Generally, it is against the law for any club to treat you unfairly for being transgender. The law says that a single-sex club can keep its status as single- sex if it admits a transgender person who identifies with the sex of that club.
You were obviously too good for the anyway!!
However, whether you are able to insist on attending the single sex club of either your birth gender or your identified gender is unclear. There have been no court cases on this part of the law yet that could provide interpretation. So if you are having trouble getting or keeping your membership of a single sex club, please contact the Anti-Discrimination Board for advice.
What is the requirement to be a "recognized transgender person?" Is it surgery or simply a doctor's statement?
I'm much more of a b**ch than you, Grace. That kind of thing burns my blood! I would have told her, "you first, right here, right now!" Then I would have stormed out.
Luckily for all concerned, the nearest gym to me is "Planet Fitness".
sorry you experienced that
Hi Grace, so sorry that you had to go through that garbage. Sounds like the reverse we had here in the states in Michigan at Planet Fitness where they revoked a cis-womans membership when she started running them down about allowing pre-op transwomen use their preferred locker room. PF said their policy is for the person to use the locker room for which they identity as.
Big Hug! You look fantastic, only wished I could look that good.
The thought of a gym is terrifying to me. I CAN'T be in the men's locker room. I'm not sure I feel comfortable in the ladies room either. I don't want them to see me and since I'm sure I don't pass I don't think they want me to see them either.
Grace, that's horrible. I'm so sorry this happened to you. All I can say is that they'll never know what they're missing -- they'll never have a member who is kinder, classier, and, yes, more "ladylike" than you.
Lets be careful in how we depict certain groups. I think we can all agree that some people are uncomfortable with us in there private spaces and as a result some members are super sensitive about this issue too.
Mariah
I face a gym dillema myself.
I cannot use the men's locker room at the gym at work anymore.
I can't use the women's either just yet.
When I transition over at work, I am wondering if I should. Maybe I could, if I keep things packed up and out of sight. It's just so convenient to go there.
I have been weighing this, clothing choices and relationships and somehow increasing genital dysphoria, and I really am leaning to get SRS in a year or two. I feel it is more of a necessity now rather than just a nice to have. I never thought it would give me such discomfort but now it really is.
Quote from: iKate on May 07, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
I face a gym dillema myself.
I cannot use the men's locker room at the gym at work anymore.
I can't use the women's either just yet.
When I transition over at work, I am wondering if I should. Maybe I could, if I keep things packed up and out of sight. It's just so convenient to go there.
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.
Quote from: kittenpower on May 07, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.
On the flip side they wouldn't be able to do anything because it's workplace discrimination if they do. I don't run into any of my female coworkers down there and 1 or 2 of the male ones, who really don't tell me anything. Mostly it's people from other parts of the campus.
And none of them won't know whether or not I had SRS either because I made my switchover ambiguous - I told HR and my manager I am going for surgery related to my gender transition and after that I am going to go full time at work. My colleagues don't know what kind of surgery I am getting. People who put 2 and 2 together will think I'm getting SRS. And that is fine. However I may approach it with caution because I don't know if it's an open space or not. If it is then I'll likely not use it.
Hugs to Grace. I've had similar situations and now I can just read everyone's comments and feel better about it. Nowadays, at a sports practice team in a gym here, I just use a third room.
It's clear from my beard shadow, voice, and all that I've a malish body. But with the sports clothing and the ponytail, the HRT, etc, it is also quite clear that I've a pair of boobs and a suspiciously feminine and young looking face.
I really would not be comfortable changing in a guys' locker room, but it does not bother me that I do not go to the girls locker. It's probably not easy to understand or react to situation, for everyone, so I kind of decided to take it through the neutral path of least resistance.
Before that, I had a similar experience than Grace in a team with a few chauvinistic outspoken agressive guys. There are some very homo or transphobic people in this gym I think, but they do not go out of a normal's person way to annoy or evade me, I feel like anyone else, just in a bit of a weird gender situation that needs some uncommon measures. It's some kind of don't ask don't tell thing, a temporary solution I guess.
Ms Grace I have been researching if there's any legislation that will prevent such establishment from discriminating you. Unfortunately, I didn't find any.
Why don't you to move to Ontario, Canada as we have stricter laws preventing discrimination against gender expression and gender identity :0). If you're incident happened here, they will be in a very BIG trouble. So huge, the government can close them down.
Much Love,
April
So sorry to hear grace.... I really dont have anything to say that has't all ready been said. but I know you will rise above, huuggs
I've tried replying to this a couple of times but have lacked the ability to put my thoughts into words. So I asked my cis-female ex how she felt about it. None of this is specific to your situation Grace, which certainly has more than a whiff of bigotry to it.
I first asked her how she would feel in two different situations. The first was as follows: She goes into the changing rooms, and sees someone who is clearly male, doesn't pass and doesnt make much effort with presentations and mannerisms/voice, and older (so has been socialised as male for most of her life). I based this woman on several trans women I have met in my time. She said that she would feel uncomfortable changing in front of that person, because if they had spent so long living as a man, and gave out a male vibe, then she would feel a bit uneasy about them being then given free access to a space where she would be getting undressed in full view.
Then I presented the second situation: There is a woman in the changing rooms who she thinks may be trans. This woman passes quite well and acts and presents as female. She said she wouldn't have a problem with getting changed in front of that woman.
I asked for some clarification as to why she would feel differently in the two situations. She explained that if she encountered a trans woman who came across as a man then she would be worried what they were thinking as she was taking her clothes of. With the trans woman who came across as female she would feel a lot more relaxed as she would expect that woman to think like a woman. She acknowledged that this wasnt necessarily fair on people who didn't pass but she pointed out that growing up as a girl, then a woman, she has become used to men acting a certain way around her, that she has spent a lifetime being wary of male attention and that it's not something she can just switch off because of how that person identifies. She said she wouldn't complain or kick up a fuss in the first situation but would instead find a different part of the changing room out of view. She also didn't think that anyone would hurt her, just that she didnt want to be naked in front of someone she got strong male vibes from.
I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It isn't dependent on surgery. She explained that if she knew that every trans woman in the changing rooms had this certificate she would feel at ease. She did also mention that some cis women make her feel uncomfortable in gym changing rooms.
I'm sorry this is a long post and if it upsets some people but I do think that we do have to consider the views of cis women in cases such as gym changing rooms. Toilets and changing cubicles in shops are a seperate matter because everyone has privacy there. My ex is a trans ally and has been hugely supportive to me so I know she doesn't have a transphobic bone in her body. I personally decided a long time ago that I wouldn't use a female gym changing room until after GRS (I exercise outside or at home instead) and that once I did I'd be careful to check the policy of the gym before joining. I just think it's a very complicated situation with a lot of factors involved and I'd rather move forward with caution to avoid making people feel uncomfortable.
As I said Grace this is a more general comment and not directed at your experience, because you would fall into the second situation anyway and have been the victim of transphobia and a policy that incorrectly judges gender by genitalia (what the hell do women do who can't afford surgery, or can't have it for medical reasons?).
Hope I haven't offended anyone with this but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of a young cis woman.
I understand that some women would not feel comfortable around some trans women who don't pass. However, this is the systemic transphobia that we are trying to over come as a society. How a person pass is subjective and if we have to consider all factors in order to blend in and please other natal women then I would not consider that fair and that behaviour perpetuates the stigma that comes with being trans.
I'm lucky that I live in a country where I don't have to show a proof of who I am as a person. Our human rights law is clear, if I present myself as a woman I am a woman. Therefore, it is my basic human right to use the change room and washroom that is consistent to my gender.
Let's look at it this way, 10 cis woman were using the change room against a non passing trans coz they perceive him as a man - who do you think would be vulnerable at that moment.
I don't have much to say. However, enough is enough. Regardless if the trans person passes or not - they have all the right to use the facilities they need. To quote our human rights law in Canada "A trans person should not be required to use a separate washroom or change room because others express discomfort or transphobic attitudes, such as, "trans women are a threat to other women." Trans people themselves are at risk of harassment and violence when using these facilities.[120] Education and awareness will help dispel these kinds of stereotypes"
Quote from: Squircle on May 10, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I've tried replying to this a couple of times but have lacked the ability to put my thoughts into words. So I asked my cis-female ex how she felt about it. None of this is specific to your situation Grace, which certainly has more than a whiff of bigotry to it.
I first asked her how she would feel in two different situations. The first was as follows: She goes into the changing rooms, and sees someone who is clearly male, doesn't pass and doesnt make much effort with presentations and mannerisms/voice, and older (so has been socialised as male for most of her life). I based this woman on several trans women I have met in my time. She said that she would feel uncomfortable changing in front of that person, because if they had spent so long living as a man, and gave out a male vibe, then she would feel a bit uneasy about them being then given free access to a space where she would be getting undressed in full view.
Then I presented the second situation: There is a woman in the changing rooms who she thinks may be trans. This woman passes quite well and acts and presents as female. She said she wouldn't have a problem with getting changed in front of that woman.
I asked for some clarification as to why she would feel differently in the two situations. She explained that if she encountered a trans woman who came across as a man then she would be worried what they were thinking as she was taking her clothes of. With the trans woman who came across as female she would feel a lot more relaxed as she would expect that woman to think like a woman. She acknowledged that this wasnt necessarily fair on people who didn't pass but she pointed out that growing up as a girl, then a woman, she has become used to men acting a certain way around her, that she has spent a lifetime being wary of male attention and that it's not something she can just switch off because of how that person identifies. She said she wouldn't complain or kick up a fuss in the first situation but would instead find a different part of the changing room out of view. She also didn't think that anyone would hurt her, just that she didnt want to be naked in front of someone she got strong male vibes from.
I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It isn't dependent on surgery. She explained that if she knew that every trans woman in the changing rooms had this certificate she would feel at ease. She did also mention that some cis women make her feel uncomfortable in gym changing rooms.
I'm sorry this is a long post and if it upsets some people but I do think that we do have to consider the views of cis women in cases such as gym changing rooms. Toilets and changing cubicles in shops are a seperate matter because everyone has privacy there. My ex is a trans ally and has been hugely supportive to me so I know she doesn't have a transphobic bone in her body. I personally decided a long time ago that I wouldn't use a female gym changing room until after GRS (I exercise outside or at home instead) and that once I did I'd be careful to check the policy of the gym before joining. I just think it's a very complicated situation with a lot of factors involved and I'd rather move forward with caution to avoid making people feel uncomfortable.
As I said Grace this is a more general comment and not directed at your experience, because you would fall into the second situation anyway and have been the victim of transphobia and a policy that incorrectly judges gender by genitalia (what the hell do women do who can't afford surgery, or can't have it for medical reasons?).
Hope I haven't offended anyone with this but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of a young cis woman.
Quote from: Squircle on May 10, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
I asked her what the requirement she felt should be put in place that would make her feel comfortable, and she suggested the Gender Recognition Certificate that we have in the UK. This is available to anyone who has lived in their prefferred gender role for two years and has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.
Squircle, I thought your scenario was interesting, and thought provoking. Thank you for posting.
However, I HATE the idea of cisgender people deciding whether or not I'm entitled to a certificate based on how long I've lived according to their standards of my gender role and what a cisgender doctor thinks my diagnosis is. It's patronizing and paternalistic. Transgender people are capable of figuring out what gender they are. My gender is not subject to anyone else's comfort level or arbitrary standards.
I still have a vagina so by their line of reasoning, I can sign up, right? ::) I am sure the lifting ladies will welcome me into their herd, with my leg hair and buzz cut.
Sorry you had to go through that Grace. Sounds like you will have a better experience elsewhere. I know Dee mentioned it, and I go to one as well - do they have Planet Fitness in Australia? They've been great for me.
Is there any reason we can't name the business here? I know the gym is one of those places that a lot of us feel apprehensive about, and I personally spent a lot of time googling mine and the word transgender to see if there was anything I needed to be nervous about. It would save future ladies a lot of time and potential negative experiences if we could tell them which gym you had this experience at.
Everyone lets keep this civil we don't have to agree with a person's post :police: I know many of us detest the idea of some standard CIS woman place on us in woman's only spaces, but regardless of that we can still support Grace considering what she went through which is the purpose of this thread which is also why I nicely ask that we stay on topic too. This doesn't need to result in us bickering over what CIS people do. Thanks
I think in Grace's case she presents female and passes well. Unfortunately something tipped them off and she was read. Could be anything from voice to the employees looking at her ID (I'm not sure of the status of her ID). I get clocked by three things - voice, shadow and credit card/ID. It happens less because I can get by with my voice and my shadow is less thanks to laser. The card/ID stuff now just confuses people so I use apple pay where my name does not get revealed.
Quote from: Mariah2014 on May 10, 2015, 01:24:34 PM
Everyone lets keep this civil we don't have to agree with a person's post :police: I know many of us detest the idea of some standard CIS woman place on us in woman's only spaces, but regardless of that we can still support Grace considering what she went through which is the purpose of this thread which is also why I nicely ask that we stay on topic too. This doesn't need to result in us bickering over what CIS people do. Thanks
My apologies; I didn't mean to take it off topic and I didn't mean to cause offence, I was just trying to present how others may feel about it.
Grace I hope you are feeling better and I'm sorry you had to go through all of that, I have a lot of repect for you and please don't think I was suggesting you don't pass, because you do, my post was in no way an attack on you :)
Thank you for your thoughtful response Squircle. A lot of what you discuss has been on my mind since Thursday. A lot of cis attitude seems to boil down to the fact that they see someone who is trans as being intrinsically the gender they were assigned as not the one they identify as, regardless of how well they pass, how long they have been on HRT, or whether they are pre/non/post op.
As trans people we know we have identified as our preferred gender for a lot, lot longer than we have been on hormones or seeing a counsellor (usually our whole life). As most of us have experienced though, being on HRT does change aspects of how we approach life and people. Being trans usually means being forced and socialised into gender roles that are alien and anathema to us, but that doesn't mean we don't pick a lot of it up along the way and bring it with us when we do come to transition; HRT may take the edge off that but we have still lost many years of sociological and biological experiences (good and bad) that can make it a challenge to fully relate with and to our cis siblings.
I understand that for the majority of cis and genetic women they have had the threat of male sexual predatory behaviour hanging over them all their life, some of them have been raped and/or treated in a sexual degrading way (often by family members) and often more than once, most if not all have been the target of harassment the moment they walk out the door....they feel threatened and oppressed by men at home and outside home. So a private space for women to just be themself is a great thing. It was largely why I sought out this gym.
When it comes to transwomen being in that private space, no matter how well they pass or how well they behave, genetic women are probably in many cases thinking "that is a man" and those fears about men are immediately there. I have a lot of sympathy for that fear, and having been on the receiving end of some scary male behaviour towards me I also have a lot of empathy. But I don't have any sympathy for the underpinning belief that we are somehow still essentially male because our birth biology doesn't match our brains, that we are somehow at best a second class of woman who needs a Proof of Vadge badge to access cis gender privileged areas.
I must admit that in approaching this gym I had hoped I would pass well enough for it not to be an issue, apparently for a few women they doubted my "authenticity" the moment they saw me, spoke to management and then some obscure "needs a vagina to be a woman" policy was brought to bear (and thanks for your comment ftmmax, that has been going through my mind about how welcome pre/non op trans guys would be!). I say obscure because I have found no evidence of it and it certainly isn't in their contract.
At the heart of the matter is lack of awareness, understanding and compassion of and for the trans experience. The second they saw me as trans they essentially defined me as "really a man" and we all know that's exactly how a lot of people think. They then told me they needed proof I was "really a woman", a deeply humiliating and upsetting experience.
So yeah, what to do? I have a few ideas but they will have to wait for another post.
Quote from: kittenpower on May 07, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to use the women's locker room at your work since everyone will know your history, and you haven't had any surgery yet. I wouldn't, just because I wouldn't want to make other women feel uncomfortable.
Glad someone else agrees with me that just like we feel uncomfortable, others would feel uncomfortable too. Sometimes we try to push our ideaology on people. I say let anyone think what they want as long as they respect you. But remember some people aren't going to accept trans and thats fine as long as they give you the proper respect.
That's a really excellent and considered post Grace. I agree with every word. My ex's views are informed by a lifetime of being treated as a sexual object by men from a young age; she's a very pretty girl who went through puberty early. She certainly accepts me as a woman and any trans women she has met through me.
Regarding your specific experience in the gym, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself for being clocked, it would be an extreme test of anyone's ability to pass and I admire your courage. It really could have been anything. But regardless the way the members reacted to you wasn't the result of unease caused by female experiences of men, it was downright transphobia. The fact they invented some new rule to challenge you proves it. Perhaps they weren't sure and wanted to see how you'd react to the question.
I do wonder what would have happened though if you had been 1) able to prove that you'd had surgery and 2) willing to prove that you'd had surgery (because I certainly wouldn't have been). Would those women have then backed down? Or would you have been hounded out over time? I get the feeling that even if a long standing member had suddenly been outed as trans after years without issue they would still have a problem with her and want her out.
Regarding ftmmax's post, it's incredible how non of the anti trans brigade ever consider trans men and how their presence in a female changing room would go down.
I hope you find somewhere more accepting and ultimately safe.
I don't think using a change room or a washroom consistent to one's gender is pushing someones ideology to another. It is a basic human right that should be available to all of us pre-op or post op.
Pushing an idea that a pre-op woman should not use a facility because some people know her history is the social cancer that should be treated.
What would someone feel if I tell them, you can't use my facility coz you have HIV, Cancer or Hepatitis.
Quote from: carmenkate on May 10, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
I don't think using a change room or a washroom consistent to one's gender is pushing someones ideology to another. It is a basic human right that should be available to all of us pre-op or post op.
Pushing an idea that a pre-op woman should not use a facility because some people know her history is the social cancer that should be treated.
What would someone feel if I tell them, you can't use my facility coz you have HIV, Cancer or Hepatitis.
I agree with April here.
And it's not like Grace wasn't making a serious effort... She seems to pass most of the time. They're going to exclude her because she hasn't corrected her birth defect yet? Do people also think it's right to discriminate against people who were born with disabilities? I don't think I could condone such behavior.
She is a woman, period. Her mindset and identity is female. Period! I often say that I hate the term "trans woman" because it makes us seem like we are not "real"
women. Rather, I like the term that my HRT clinic uses - women of transgender experience. We are women, just via a different path.
I would love to see these people try to deal with a friend of mine. The last time I talked to him a couple of years ago (I've been super-busy, yikes), he was about a decade on T and still hadn't changed his legal name or gender marker.
They would be pretty damned embarrassed to ask whether he has documentation of "the surgery" and get his answer. I suppose they would then ask for a birth certificate, but as you all know, California birth certificates can be completely changed. What would they do then? Ask him to drop his trousers?
I'd bet that, if it became public (or known perhaps better) that there are many female clients who work out there who would also take their business elsewhere. Such a thing could be hurtful to the business.
Quote from: Marly on May 10, 2015, 10:00:24 PM
I'd bet that, if it became public (or known perhaps better) that there are many female clients who work out there who would also take their business elsewhere. Such a thing could be hurtful to the business.
I agree but it's a price we pay to live in society without discrimination. If that mindset was applied when we were dealing with segregation and were told that we had to be "sensitive" to the "needs" of people who were uncomfortable among people of color we probably would never have ended it.
We all need to learn to get along and respect each other. That includes cisgender and transgender people learning to coexist.
I used to sit on a major sports club Committee around 10 yeras plus ago. I remember the first TG that changed her gender at the club and it was a major issue. We had never had this issue before and our city is pretty advanced in laws to protect TGs including the right to marriage, but its a very conservative club and the ladies are not liberals. The women Committe were up in arms about the prospect of this person using their changing room - even tho she had a vagina. Fortunately, she agreed to used a special changing room, I objected saying that she had every right to use the female changing rooms. Today she uses the female changing rooms but I still hear the grumpy older women complaining. Wait till I come out, i will execise my full legal rights.....
Amen sister. It's sad that transphobia exist in our own community who would rather protect a cis genders experience than our own. What a folly!
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 10, 2015, 10:09:43 PM
I used to sit on a major sports club Committee around 10 yeras plus ago. I remember the first TG that changed her gender at the club and it was a major issue. We had never had this issue before and our city is pretty advanced in laws to protect TGs including the right to marriage, but its a very conservative club and the ladies are not liberals. The women Committe were up in arms about the prospect of this person using their changing room - even tho she had a vagina. Fortunately, she agreed to used a special changing room, I objected saying that she had every right to use the female changing rooms. Today she uses the female changing rooms but I still hear the grumpy older women complaining. Wait till I come out, i will execise my full legal rights.....
I am a Libertarian Conservative. Despised by the left, treated with suspicion by the right.
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I think that a private company should be allowed to enforce these kinds of rules, about who they will accept as clients.
Someone mentioned setting up a 'trans only' gym. As funny as that is, what we would be asking for is no different. A policy that permits one group of clientele, and excludes another.
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Old-me went to a Catholic university. They forbid any kind of LGBT student association, or any academic mention of all matters non-heteronormative.
Could I go back to that university? Probably not. Should I be able to? Probably not, either.
Would I even want to go back? Not particularly!
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If I find the values and regulations of one instituion do not work with me, no matter - I will simply go somewhere else.
I am not going to take it personally.
This is a tricky and highly emotive area - from what I can tell the organisation in question has the local state laws on their side and there's not much I can do about that. As Sarah notes, they have the "right" to state who they permit to be a member - that's a legal right, even if it is not morally right.
The way I see it, as a female only gym, their principle mission is to offer an environment for their members that is not only safe but also feels safe and unthreatening. Presumably they draw a line on what can be perceived by members as unsafe and threatening based on the law. A member can't say they find a disabled person unsafe or threatening, that would be illegal. A member can't say they find someone of a different race and/or religion as unsafe or threatening, that would be illegal. At this gym, in my home state, a member can say they find a female person with a penis to be unsafe or threatening, and the club has the legal protection to enforce that - presumably by asking "suspect" individuals to prove the status of their genitals.
And I am totally 100% for that gym providing an environment that is, and also feels, safe and unthreatening. What's at issue here is that, as a trans woman I should not be perceived as unsafe or a threat to that environment. And neither should any trans woman, regardless of whether they are pre/non/post op - there are rules for members to follow and one would expect that, cis or trans, they would be expelled from the gym for any transgression. It's not that the gym can't make the gym safe for all women, it's that many cis women feel uncomfortable with trans women. Any hateful prejudices aside, most of that discomfort boils down to not knowing or understanding the trans condition; the vast majority of cis people don't even know that we (usually) take hormones, don't understand that this isn't a "lifestyle" choice, don't believe that it isn't some sexual kink, etc. When you're up against that degree of ignorance it's no wonder organisations come up with stupid rules like "prove you have a vagina". Is it for the organisation's piece of mind, or their clientele's or both?
The crux therefore is how far is the organisation prepared to go to prove that it is an organisation for all women - be they cis or trans or intersex or whatever? If a member was to complain that they were uncomfortable about a disabled person or a person of different ethnicity/religion they would be told "too bad, get over yourself, they have a right to use these facilities and we support them doing so - if you don't like it you can leave". So why not do the same for trans women? It would need to be done in conjunction with clear unambiguous statements in their contracts, staff training, advertising material, gym newsletters and info sessions. Work with trans members so they can demonstrate there is no threat and no need to feel unsafe. Ensure any breach of that safety, from any member cis or trans, results in expulsion. As Squircle noted above, her partner also admitted to feeling intimidated by certain cis women.
Anyway, that's what I'm working towards taking to the gym. They are a national franchise so I don't know about my chances but I have to start somewhere...
Grace sorry to read about your experience.
This is the passing privilege crap I'm talking about if you folks remember the recent intimate spaces thread.
"I would say that if you are being read, accruing any suspicion, then you'll have a hard time making it in places where women who self-select by CIS passing privilege, can meet and feel secure and openly intimate with each other.
For a transwoman it's a unyielding test of her stealthyness."
Since I'm not in the top 15% of passing (those rare transwomen who achieved unquestioned stealth), I'm planning on just renewing my co-ed gym membership for the warm season months and just stick with carrying a bottle of water and a towel. Locker room issues solved. I know if something hurts, that's the universes way of telling me I've reached my personal limits. So I'll accept it, present androgynously for this situation. Yeah breast binder, hair tied up, tennis shirt, addidas mens pants .. etc.
Why start a war? It is what it is.
Oh well. But I'm good enough for me, so meh. ;D
Segregation has never been the answer and all of us know that - especially us women that lives in North America, Australia and South Africa. Integration has always been the goal so going back to that kind of ideology is I think in my opinion a backwards way of thinking. No one has the right to isolate someone based on their sex, race, colour, religion, gender identity and expression.
I will no longer post any response to this as I can feel some resistance to the idea of integration, fighting for what's right. If you think businesses in your country has the right to discriminate you fine. I will never stand for that.
Quote from: iKate on May 10, 2015, 10:08:32 PM
I agree but it's a price we pay to live in society without discrimination. If that mindset was applied when we were dealing with segregation and were told that we had to be "sensitive" to the "needs" of people who were uncomfortable among people of color we probably would never have ended it.
We all need to learn to get along and respect each other. That includes cisgender and transgender people learning to coexist.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SarahBoo on May 11, 2015, 12:06:52 AM
I am a Libertarian Conservative. Despised by the left, treated with suspicion by the right.
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Hello from a politically like-minded soul :)
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 10, 2015, 02:31:42 PM
...............
At the heart of the matter is lack of awareness, understanding and compassion of and for the trans experience. The second they saw me as trans they essentially defined me as "really a man" and we all know that's exactly how a lot of people think. They then told me they needed proof I was "really a woman", a deeply humiliating and upsetting experience.
So yeah, what to do? I have a few ideas but they will have to wait for another post.
Ms Grace did they want to see your genitals. Can you see them asking an FTM man to prove it by showing his genitals?
Quote from: carmenkate on May 11, 2015, 10:32:00 AM
I will no longer post any response to this as I can feel some resistance to the idea of integration, fighting for what's right. If you think businesses in your country has the right to discriminate you fine. I will never stand for that.
I agree with you April, but while they don't have the moral right to deny me membership based on my genitals rather than my gender identity they do have a legal "right" given to them by my state. I have always railed against gender segregation, it is one of my most significant triggers. Regardless, I'm talking about trying to enact change for an inclusive environment when there are legal frameworks permitting the organisation to maintain the discriminatory status quo - an inclusive environment where all women, cis and trans, feel safe.
Quote from: mac1 on May 11, 2015, 03:43:59 PM
Ms Grace did they want to see your genitals. Can you see them asking an FTM man to prove it by showing his genitals?
They asked for proof of surgery which is the same thing.
Basically it's a roundabout way of asking if you have a vagina.
A woman only Gym is really a sexually biased position when women have challenged the existence of men only Gyms and gained the right to join them.
Ugh. Really? I'm not even going there and I don't want this thread to either.
Quote from: Marly on May 11, 2015, 12:44:01 PM
Hello from a politically like-minded soul :)
Well met! (~:
I don't blame you, I run into this a few times a semester at the gym on campus, but our campus has gender identity protections but it doesn't stop the cis-gender bitches from trying to rain on your parade. Sad thing is, 90% of the time, the girls that look like Barbie wannabe's get upset when I out lift them by a landslide and I have to constantly remind them im a Combat Vet. >_> oddly I find the men on campus more agreeable to hang out with. They see me as the girl who likes to smoke, drink, spit, and play in the mud with them lol.
Ms. Grace, I am so sorry you were discriminated against. I've never had that experience since transitioning, so I don't know how I would react.
I don't think I'd want to go back there, though, if I had to shrink to a discriminatory policy.
Id rather be honest and go from there.
Again, I'm not in your shoes, though. Big hugs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh yeah I have no intention on returning, at least not under that policy. Even if I was post op I wouldn't just out of principle. I'm more trying to think about getting them to change the policy...
:police:
Please people, this is Grace's thread and I know that she is inclusive of all people no matter her experience at the gym.
I do not want to see any more posts bashing ciswomen (or cismen for that matter) nor any member or group in society.
Such comments devalue Grace's personal philosophy as they do the trans*community.
Thank You
Cindy
Leave an online review and share your experience. Others need to be aware of who they are.
I am currently faced with pretty much the same problem. I currently do water aerobics twice a week at my swimming pool, but as I have been losing weight and with my B+ Cup breasts, permanently erect nipples, large areolae and rounded buttocks now starting to be pretty obvious, I am really now at the stage where:-
1. I have gone from looking like an overweight male in mens bathing trunks. Mind you from a different perspective since I have been on the HRT , my perception of naked male bodies has changed!
to
2. A Half naked female'
Its already getting quite embarrassing for me in the mens locker room, such that I now shower and dry off then wrapping my big bath towel under my armpits and around me covering up my breasts and then head to a quiet corner in the locker room to change, but as each week goes on with my breasts, nipples and areolae too evident, I have been decided that I really have to use a family changing room.
But I really need now to wear a one piece bathing suit and a bathing cap rather tham my male trunks , (I have a nice halter neck one piece with high thigh cut), so I am contemplating trying out a different pool where I can change before hand then do a water aerobics session, then changing back in the family changing room. The question though is how much do I disclose beforehand to the swimming pool/gym management
Judith
If you use a family changing room, i wouldn't think you'd need to disclose anything. As long as you're appropriately covered, what can they really do? Now if you want to use the women's locker room, then you may want to make management aware of your situation so they can properly field any complaints that come their way. That's just my opinion.
Quote from: Ms Grace on May 06, 2015, 10:21:29 PM
I'm pretty upset and disappointed. I gather the majority of the women there had no idea I was trans it wasn't until some cis privileged cows protecting their vagina only domain decided I was suss that the wheels fell off. I've decided I'm not going back. Even if I did have the documentation I don't think I would go back. What a disgrace.
Since I am a zumba fan, I can tell you that some of the women only gyms are nasty places. I always feel that there's such a thing as too much estrogen. Women are competitive with each other and assuming that they did read you (which I am guessing they did) they felt you were a competitive threat. If you could lift more and do more pushups, then they will rail against you. It's too bad as well, it's the gyms fault really.
Trust me when I say this, and even saying this as a long time post op, I will say that, what in the goddam hell business is it of anyone what you may or may not have? You are going there, paying a membership fee and then working out and going home. Did they have some community showers or something? Was the locker room full of naked chicks running around? What, no? I didn't think so. Most women are very modest and protective of their bodies even in front of other women. I have rarely been to a gym over the years where there was anything more provocative than a woman in underwear. In fact most women don't even shower at gyms, they go work out and go home, just like I do. Heck nearly every woman I know won't even pee at the gym.
These gym policies are just utterly amazing and 99.9999% chance written by either men or women who have bibles in their purses. If you like the gym and the equipment and the people then stick to your guns. If you have doubts then go find a better place. Remember your money is still just as green!
Part of the problem is the perverts , and what to think of jealous husbands !
Here we talk MTF what do you think a FTM have to endure , yes most men do not
make a problem of it, but only because the think ooo pussy. And a depression for
him ,because of remarks or worse rape.
We are a long way from a good world.
:police:
OK people lets keep this thread on topic please