Hi everyone,
So, I recently started my first "big kid" job; I work in a car manufacturing facility in a very conservative region of my home state of Indiana (unfortunately). My legal sex is still male, but I informed my manager that I recently started presenting as female full-time, and that I'd like to be introduced to coworkers, etc., as "Ally" or "Allyson".
So far, things seems to be working well (meaning that I'm passing), as guys are very nice to me, the correct pronouns are being used, and one older man even called me "babe" at one point yesterday. The only thing that bothers me is that -- particularly whenever I'm introduced to male factory workers -- some men blatantly obviously look me up and down at least a couple times. This is something that is very new to me, and I'm just not sure how to interpret it, as it's certainly not something I ever did to females whenever I was living as a male.
Sometimes, it occurs only once, like say immediately after a man has been introduced to me, but on other occasions, men have looked me up and down while I'm standing eye-to-eye with them and talking. Could this mean that they're kind of surprised that I'm so tall (5 ft. 10), or is it possible that they're checking to make sure I don't have male genitalia since my voice is kind of deep for a female? Could it mean that I'm just really attractive in my skinny jeans and whatnot, or do guys just do this to all women they meet?
On one hand, I'm not too concerned, as I've overheard many conversations about how "demonizing" gay people are, and I randomly overheard a conversation a few lunch tables away, in which a woman explained to some of her male coworkers that a transgender person is "a man dressed in female clothes"; they were referencing these pro-GLBT flyers that the higher-ups within the automobile factory have been distributing for a few weeks now. So, if I'm in an environment like this and aroused suspicion, wouldn't these bigoted people treat me pretty badly, as opposed to holding doors open for me, calling me "babe", talking in high-pitched voices to me, and even letting me change in female bathrooms?
However, on the other hand, I am kind of concerned, as the initial man to look me up and down a couple times was very nice to me at first, but eventually had gotten to the point that he was ignoring my questions and shoving me out of his way to get to things. It's clear that he soon developed a problem with me, but I'm unsure as to whether it stemmed from looking at me so many times and inferring that I'm trans, or if it was because a former high school classmate (of all people) just so happened to be working alongside him, and that it's conceivable that this guy recognized me from high school.
I'm not sure what to think of these recent occurrences in my new workplace. Any thoughts?
Ally
Eh....
High school friend
But you pass!!!
Keep the job.... and bolt when you feel like it. Make as much money as you can, but its a job and theres plenty more.
You pass though.... its that high school friend
Men try very hard to hide their emotions unless it's full rage/disgust. The best way to try to "read" a guy is by seeing their stance ( like how far away are they standing, are they leaning forward/backwards and other distance judgements) check their forehead for any deep wrinkling that appears, nose flaring can be a detector of agitation and finally what does their mouth say (smiles, side grins, or stonewalled look).
Sorry I can't really give a huge in-depth workout for this, but it comes down to the small telltale signs that USUALLY (not always, some people look angry/neutral regardless) give off a huge sign of what they're feeling. Hope work stays a positive and safe place for ya hun!
Understand that it's the co-worker that has the problem, not you. When you say he's, "shoving me out of his way to get to things," I conjure up an image of an action that seems inappropriate in the workplace. Depending on the degree or frequency, you certainly should point it out. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, as a life-long manager, I've found there's usually more than one perspective.
If it were me, and it's what I am envisioning, I'd confront the person immediately after an incident and say something like, "Please don't shove me. If you'll give me a second, I'll be happy to get out of your way." Try to be pleasant or at least not angry. My guess he'll deny it was a shove. Hopefully, the behavior will stop. If it continues, point it out in a brief way, "Please don't do that." Note the date and time of all the incidents. If you can find another co-worker that will collaborate your version of the incident, it'll be very helpful. After one or two more incidences, you should discuss the matter with your supervisor or the HR department. I'd start with the supervisor, since the HR department will bring it to their attention anyway. You are entitled to work in a non-threatening environment.
My guess is that your high school friend may have said something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he did it with malicious intent.
All the best, and let us know how it goes.
-AshleyP
As I said, that's what I'd do because I'm more of a confrontational person. I should also have added that you certainly have the option of bringing the matter up with your supervisor or HR right now.
Could be the voice. I get some weird looks even when I'm presenting male due to my male sounding voice. In a few instances I've gone from "ma'am" and "miss" to "sir" or "buddy" when I started talking. Once a woman at the supermarket did this and I told her flat out, "it's miss or ma'am, I'm trans please respect the pronouns." She was cool with that (and in NJ places of public accommodation need to respect gender identity or expression) and addressed me properly afterwards. But at the same time I felt I wasn't genuine or real. When I do truly pass I feel genuine and real.
However I do pass in other respects, most definitely visually, without makeup and now even without shaving after a week because laser has thinned out the facial hair so much. Just the voice gets me and believe me it is a major source of distress because once you get put into the male box it's very hard to get out.
Nice one, Ally :~)
Some people are just rough and lack grace at work to begin with. I wouldn't read so much into it.
You already look just wonderful, so keep your head down, prove any doubters wrong, and all will be fine. That's been my approach.
Try to avoid making an issue of things or filing complaints about your colleagues unless it is absolutely necessary. Like I said, there will always be difficult people in the workplace.
x
I also live in a very conservative part of Indiana >:( and worked in a factory until about a month ago. I am not ready to come out yet because I have to make more progress on my transition, but check your company's policy on gender identity. An automotive manufacturer should have LGBT-friendly policies, but small companies might be questionable. i understand working in factory around here because it pays better than a lot of other hourly jobs and is full-time, so it takes care of transition expenses better than a lot of other jobs .
BTW, what part of Indiana do live in? i live in Northeast Indiana.
Quote from: Wild Flower on May 23, 2015, 02:00:37 PM
Eh....
High school friend
But you pass!!!
Keep the job.... and bolt when you feel like it. Make as much money as you can, but its a job and theres plenty more.
You pass though.... its that high school friend
That was a real confidence booster Thanks for the encouragement.
Ally
Quote from: AshleyP on May 23, 2015, 04:33:35 PM
Understand that it's the co-worker that has the problem, not you. When you say he's, "shoving me out of his way to get to things," I conjure up an image of an action that seems inappropriate in the workplace. Depending on the degree or frequency, you certainly should point it out. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, as a life-long manager, I've found there's usually more than one perspective.
If it were me, and it's what I am envisioning, I'd confront the person immediately after an incident and say something like, "Please don't shove me. If you'll give me a second, I'll be happy to get out of your way." Try to be pleasant or at least not angry. My guess he'll deny it was a shove. Hopefully, the behavior will stop. If it continues, point it out in a brief way, "Please don't do that." Note the date and time of all the incidents. If you can find another co-worker that will collaborate your version of the incident, it'll be very helpful. After one or two more incidences, you should discuss the matter with your supervisor or the HR department. I'd start with the supervisor, since the HR department will bring it to their attention anyway. You are entitled to work in a non-threatening environment.
My guess is that your high school friend may have said something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he did it with malicious intent.
All the best, and let us know how it goes.
-AshleyP
Thank you; yes, HR is totally on my side, and I've run up there just to talk to them a few times already. They love me lol. I've kind of slept over what happened, and I'm thinking that the older guy who shoved me out of the way was so nice and polite to me at first because he looked me up and down and was pretty impressed. I wear very tight pants and stuff because factory gear from the pants up is very bulky. I kind of think that the high school classmate mentioned something in passing, which would have made the man very angry for being so polite to me in the first place... Not fair...
Ally
If he's being rude to you I'd just disregard him. He could always be playing the "treat 'em mean, make 'em keen" card but honestly it is a waste of time trying to second guess people and read them.
Quote from: iKate on May 23, 2015, 04:55:04 PM
Could be the voice. I get some weird looks even when I'm presenting male due to my male sounding voice. In a few instances I've gone from "ma'am" and "miss" to "sir" or "buddy" when I started talking. Once a woman at the supermarket did this and I told her flat out, "it's miss or ma'am, I'm trans please respect the pronouns." She was cool with that (and in NJ places of public accommodation need to respect gender identity or expression) and addressed me properly afterwards. But at the same time I felt I wasn't genuine or real. When I do truly pass I feel genuine and real.
However I do pass in other respects, most definitely visually, without makeup and now even without shaving after a week because laser has thinned out the facial hair so much. Just the voice gets me and believe me it is a major source of distress because once you get put into the male box it's very hard to get out.
It's reassuring to read that maybe someone else has this problem. See, most men around here seem to be at least 6 ft. or 6 ft. 1, so I don't think that my height ever outs me by any means. And I'm very, very thin, but also have noticeable hips, etc., so I pass really well aesthetically. Thus, I haven't been misgendered due to someone just looking at me for a couple of months now, which is great.
The only thing is -- my voice would be considered very resonant for a female. My somewhat inconsiderate mom even asked me if I intend to train it or anything the other day... It hasn't deepened since I initially hit puberty, so I just kind of assumed that it was high enough -- and most of the time it seems to be if someone sees me before hearing me. But, the other day, for example, I was in a waiting room at a doctor's office, and was entirely out of sight of the secretary's window, just talking to my friend. I got "sir'd" at one point -- for the first time in a long time -- but once I walked up to the window to give the secretary some paperwork, she examined me and apologized for calling me "sir". It totally varies from how it used to be, where people used to think I was female from a distance because I presented as such, but changed pronouns the instant they got within 20 feet of me.
I've never had a huge problem with my voice, though, and some of my friends even say that it just makes me seem like an athletic woman. but it does seem to out me at times. Before I started presenting and just looked effeminate, people would think I was female at a glance, but immediately correct pronouns once I spoke. Now, I just get confused looks from time to time whenever I talk... -_- Wish I knew how to correct the dang thing; I would say it's higher than the voice of any male I know unless they're in their early teens...
-Ally
Quote from: SarahBoo on May 23, 2015, 05:07:16 PM
Nice one, Ally :~)
Some people are just rough and lack grace at work to begin with. I wouldn't read so much into it.
You already look just wonderful, so keep your head down, prove any doubters wrong, and all will be fine. That's been my approach.
Try to avoid making an issue of things or filing complaints about your colleagues unless it is absolutely necessary. Like I said, there will always be difficult people in the workplace.
x
Thanks so much for your encouragement. :]
Ally
Quote from: rachel89 on May 23, 2015, 05:08:42 PM
I also live in a very conservative part of Indiana >:( and worked in a factory until about a month ago. I am not ready to come out yet because I have to make more progress on my transition, but check your company's policy on gender identity. An automotive manufacturer should have LGBT-friendly policies, but small companies might be questionable. i understand working in factory around here because it pays better than a lot of other hourly jobs and is full-time, so it takes care of transition expenses better than a lot of other jobs .
BTW, what part of Indiana do live in? i live in Northeast Indiana.
I live in Southwest Indiana. It's like literally right by Kentucky, so people are worrisomely socially conservative for the most part. And the people who I sometimes work alongside are blue collar working men, usually in their 40s or so.
I work for Toyota; the highers-up within the facility are extremely progressive, which is great. During orientation, for example, the man who was taking my picture for my identification thought that I was female -- even after learning my legal name -- but once I handed him my driver's license, he discerned that I was trans. Instead of treating me weird like many in my area would, he immediately asked me what my preferred name is, so that kind of alludes to how corporate is. But the actual workers there -- I've heard some of them make fun of the "->-bleeped-<-" in another sector of the factory already, and meanwhile, I'm standing like right by them without any problems... Kind of eerie, to be honest.
And yes, it's a heck of a way to pay for transition expenses. I'm going to see this through either way, as I'd be able to get FFS in ~2 years, but it's going to be very hard if I experience problems like I did with the aforementioned older guy... Also, corporate mandates that I HAVE to use the female restrooms (which is great) since I've been medically transitioning. They informed me that it would be dangerous for me to use the male restrooms, so again, I can probably trust in them.
-Ally
I vote with Sarah, Guys are idiots. Of course they are not so subtlety sizing you up. My guess (and apologies for bluntness) is whether you are a lesbian or not. Too tall and way too skinny to fit the typical profile. (Hey, I know how guys think in non-PC mode) So why work in an auto factory? Some knock out babe the boss is banging wouldn't be out on the floor with us.
So, keep a low profile, pull your weight and things and should be fine. Of course expect some mansplaining and talking down too. You know, the normal stuff as to why you don't see too many women in auto factories filled with guys
The place I worked for, the male restrooms were often so disgusting, that i was basically forced to use the urinal on may occasions (and stand far away) >:(
BTW, at least a few people knew something was up with me, despite relatively short hair and not being out yet. One woman noticed that shaved my arms, and that i didn't act "manly" , and always sat with women at lunch etc. She was friendly, but she didn't know what was really going on with me (probably thought I was gay). But I'm not sure "transsexual" crossed her mind either.
Quote from: JoanneB on May 24, 2015, 02:50:52 AM
I vote with Sarah, Guys are idiots. Of course they are not so subtlety sizing you up. My guess (and apologies for bluntness) is whether you are a lesbian or not. Too tall and way too skinny to fit the typical profile. (Hey, I know how guys think in non-PC mode) So why work in an auto factory? Some knock out babe the boss is banging wouldn't be out on the floor with us.
So, keep a low profile, pull your weight and things and should be fine. Of course expect some mansplaining and talking down too. You know, the normal stuff as to why you don't see too many women in auto factories filled with guys
Thanks for your contribution -- and I have been told that I look like I'm lesbian before, but the person who said that to me meant it as a compliment.
My question for you is: Why would a tall, skinny girl not fit the typical profile and thereby possibly be considered lesbian? Also, what is "non-PC mode"? Lol. And in my particular company, women actually outnumber men; literally like one-third of my town works in this factory.
I'm not entirely sure if it's them blatantly obviously wondering that I'm lesbian, as I was introduced to this one guy who looked me up and down twice, and who literally said, "Whoah, hi", after the first scan. He was very jubilant the entire time, and even yelled, "Take care, Ally", as I parted ways with him. And one guy who was driving a forklift around kept stopping his forklift by me to ask me how I was doing, etc. I told him that the work was very strenuous, and he goes, "Oh, it is NOT. Hahaha." This guy clearly saw me as female, as that wouldn't be a laughable answer coming from a male, and he wouldn't have kept talking to me if he thought I was trans. The concern I have is the older guy I referenced earlier, who scanned me up and down after being introduced to me, and who even used female pronouns with me, until my high school classmate was in the picture. Next thing I know, I'm getting parts ripped out of my hands by the older guy, and not a damned person is training me in despite it being my first day. The day after that was good, though, in that each of the guys who scanned me up and down like the older guy, were very nice to me the entire time. I'm still trying to imagine that maybe they possibly thought I was lesbian since you mentioned it, but I never thought as a guy (even when I effectively was one), and "She must be lesbian" would be one of the last things to cross my mind if I saw a really thin, 5 ft. 10 girl working in a factory. Idk.
I think I'm mainly curious what the heck the scanning up-and-down thing means, as I asked my mom about it, who said that it's very common with guys.
Ally
Once again, apologies for the bluntness. It seems that a lot of lesbians tend to be short, overweight, have short hair, and don't dress girlie girl. And then, there are the lesbian fantasy women that are in their porn dreams. A typical guy's first reaction to any woman entering typical "Male Territory" is "lesbian". At least in my chameleon life as a male that is what I've observed with most blue collar type, and even those that aren't.
BTW, if you aren't an "in your face" feminist and just a normal type female person who won't put with a lot os BS, but some, you'll get the tom-boy label vs girlie-girl type of woman
It sounds like guys are checking you out. Men are pretty simple creatures, so I wouldn't read to much into it. BTW non-pc means not politically correct, and in this context, it means that guys aren't using their brains to think about women.
Quote from: JoanneB on May 24, 2015, 10:36:17 AM
Once again, apologies for the bluntness. It seems that a lot of lesbians tend to be short, overweight, have short hair, and don't dress girlie girl. And then, there are the lesbian fantasy women that are in their porn dreams. A typical guy's first reaction to any woman entering typical "Male Territory" is "lesbian". At least in my chameleon life as a male that is what I've observed with most blue collar type, and even those that aren't.
BTW, if you aren't an "in your face" feminist and just a normal type female person who won't put with a lot os BS, but some, you'll get the tom-boy label vs girlie-girl type of woman
Oh, okay. It makes sense now! I was about to say that most lesbians seem to be stereotypically short, overweight, and short-haired, which differs from how I present. I present hyper-effeminate and certainly am not short. I think you're right.
Quote from: rachel89 on May 24, 2015, 10:44:55 AM
It sounds like guys are checking you out. Men are pretty simple creatures, so I wouldn't read to much into it. BTW non-pc means not politically correct, and in this context, it means that guys aren't using their brains to think about women.
Should have known what "PC" stood for lol. You're right I think; it's just so crazy to me I guess because there was obviously a point in my life in which I lived as a male, and I certainly wasn't gay. Rather, I was pretty "macho", and was used to being called "douche bag".
But one thing I would have never done is blatantly gawk at attractive women standing in front of me mid-conversation. I realized that many women would view me as being dumber than they are if I did that, and that having the upperhand usually entails showing very, very little interest and masking your perceptions of someone. But it totally makes sense to assume that a lot of guys are too simple to think on that level or are too overtaken by sexual energy to think.
Quote from: Jasper93 on May 24, 2015, 11:14:28 AM
Should have known what "PC" stood for lol. You're right I think; it's just so crazy to me I guess because there was obviously a point in my life in which I lived as a male, and I certainly wasn't gay. Rather, I was pretty "macho", and was used to being called "douche bag".
But one thing I would have never done is blatantly gawk at attractive women standing in front of me mid-conversation. I realized that many women would view me as being dumber than they are if I did that, and that having the upperhand usually entails showing very, very little interest and masking your perceptions of someone. But it totally makes sense to assume that a lot of guys are too simple to think on that level or are too overtaken by sexual energy to think.
It sounds to me like normal male behavior, they just cant help themselves.... I get that all the time and honestly I enjoy it if the man doing it is attractive ;) I'll usually give it right right back to them and if they cant keep eye contact I will lose any attraction I had and they will usually stop it.... If they really seem into me and If Im attracted as well I just turn on the feminine charm even more and I enjoy teasing them ;D Of course Im very comfortable with myself around men, Ive been intimate with a lot of them by now and Ive even gone as far as dominating some of them if that's what their into :D I find as I gain confidence and move along with my transition they become easier and easier to read and interact with naturally ;)
As far as how you used to behave as a "male" and the way they treat you now ??? Well I donno about you but I never really could understand my male friends and the way they behaved and why they would do some of the things they would do to the women in their lives and I never was very good at attracting women either... I can see now that's because I never really was male and Id say you weren't either so just be yourself and enjoy the attention ;)
Rightly or wrongly, our culture tends to teach males that females are sex objects first, and people a distant second or even third. Consequently a lot of guys will give you "the look", sizing you up. Are you attractive? Do you have a nice rack? Does she have a sweet rear end? How about her figure? Her face?
You're going to get these looks for the rest of your life. In one sense it's a compliment, because someone is seeing you as the woman you are. In another sense, it can feel infuriating because someone is seeing you as a sex object and wondering if they can bed you.
I work in a white collar professional environment and there's a subtle difference between many white collar males and blue collar males. More white collar males will look at you discretely, and in an "admiring" way while more blue collar men just ogle you flat out. A few guys I've chatted with have said that the thought process is about the same though, just how they go about it.
And in today's society, like it or not, we're going to be ogled, whether it's overt or not. So I guess as long as they aren't pawing us or trying to assault us, it's tolerable.
But welcome to womanhood. :D
Quote from: Jasper93 on May 23, 2015, 08:54:24 PM
I work for Toyota; the highers-up within the facility are extremely progressive, which is great.
I kind of figured, since you said auto maker in Indiana. The only other option is Subaru and they are in Lafayette. So you're at the Princeton plant. A friend of mine in ft Wayne told me that it's way more "middle america" than where he is.
QuoteDuring orientation, for example, the man who was taking my picture for my identification thought that I was female -- even after learning my legal name -- but once I handed him my driver's license, he discerned that I was trans. Instead of treating me weird like many in my area would, he immediately asked me what my preferred name is, so that kind of alludes to how corporate is. But the actual workers there -- I've heard some of them make fun of the "->-bleeped-<-" in another sector of the factory already, and meanwhile, I'm standing like right by them without any problems... Kind of eerie, to be honest.
I was a bit surprised at the reaction of my employer as well. They thought of it as no big deal and didn't think I'd have problems with anyone. I actually work for a company that most people would think is hard core "traditional values" but in reality we have a pretty diverse workforce. It is New York after all, and we have laws here but we also have international subsidiaries and in reality most large corporations care primarily about your productivity.
So far all the co-workers I've told have been extremely supportive, in particular my team members. The lone woman on my team was super excited to have another lady on the team, and she said I'd be a very beautiful lady.
Quote from: LizMarie on May 24, 2015, 01:36:43 PM
Rightly or wrongly, our culture tends to teach males that females are sex objects first, and people a distant second or even third. Consequently a lot of guys will give you "the look", sizing you up. Are you attractive? Do you have a nice rack? Does she have a sweet rear end? How about her figure? Her face?
You're going to get these looks for the rest of your life. In one sense it's a compliment, because someone is seeing you as the woman you are. In another sense, it can feel infuriating because someone is seeing you as a sex object and wondering if they can bed you.
I work in a white collar professional environment and there's a subtle difference between many white collar males and blue collar males. More white collar males will look at you discretely, and in an "admiring" way while more blue collar men just ogle you flat out. A few guys I've chatted with have said that the thought process is about the same though, just how they go about it.
And in today's society, like it or not, we're going to be ogled, whether it's overt or not. So I guess as long as they aren't pawing us or trying to assault us, it's tolerable.
But welcome to womanhood. :D
Actually, I guess I never thought of the difference -- or really had an opportunity to perceive it. The town I'm in is definitely full of blue collar workers, and I notice this stuff pretty frequently, but around a month ago, I was living on-campus at my college (Indiana University -- very prestigious), and no one even seemed to bat an eye at each other -- let alone silly 'ol me. So, it makes sense now. I feel pretty relieved that it's not that the males are possibly scrutinizing me, potentially looking for male body parts or something. They do seem relatively simple... Guess I'll be scanning in return next time (if they're hot) lol.
-Ally