A lot of people, in a recent poll on androgyne identity and whether or not it was accepted, responded that they did not see androgyne as a valid gender identity. Some said it was a form of gender expression. Some said other things.
No one really elaborated on why they believed it was invalid.
I come before you today with a plea.
I can take the fact that you don't believe in my identity, but please tell me why. It really bothers me that no one has said why they think this way.
Take pity on a person, would you? At least give me some reasons. I don't care what they are. Just please tell me.
I suppose I don't fall into your vat of dissenters Tay. I don't understand androgony. I really don't. But... there are many people such as yourself who identify this way. I can not ignore this fact. I myself had a problem of self identity in my life. I DO understand that feeling.
So from this perspective, I respect your desires and wishes. I'm afraid that you'll have to stand in the back of the line with us to get equal rights, protections, and validation. This country is still in turmoil over gay and lesbian issues. Identity issues seem to take a back seat to it all.
Cindi
Thank you for your input, Cindi. This is probably a good time for me to say that this is not me looking for people to say "We support you!" and try to make me feel better, though.
I am honestly just looking for reasons why people don't believe androgyne is a real gender identity.
It's simple Tay. They don't understand it. They can't conceptualize themselves as being anything other than who they are. As a result, they can't believe that anyone else should be any different. If you add any sort of religious morality to the mix, you have some serious issues.
Cindi
But then why do we see these responses in the trans community? Where people are seen as something else for part of their lives, treated as something they aren't?
Where people know the pain of having grown up pretending to be something they weren't?
This is what I do not understand.
It bothers me, really, that the only responses I ever get to this question are the well-meant assumptions of people like you, the answers like this that rationalise it, but have never been consulted with the people who feel the opinion.
And that is not an attack on you, Cindi. Please understand that. It just bothers me that this is the only type of response I ever get to this question.
I see where you are going Tay. I hope you get some answers.
Cindi
Why do you see them in the T community? Because most people are leaving one box for another and many people do not like anything that falls outside of their box.
Hats off to you, when I was doing andro, it was the toughest part of my overall transition. The amount of animosity that one receives from the general public (they do not like anything that challenges them either) can be overwhelming.
I wish that people could just kick back and learn to love life more.
Tay,
I think being androgyne is valid and I find it very hard to talk about. Our language simply doesn't support it, as you know. Things that are hard to talk about are also very hard to understand and things that are hard to understand are hard to accept too. You can combine this with the fact that many transsexual people have to move through both/neither to get where they want to be, but it's still a distance away from where they want to go. So it's not a resting place for them, it's a temporary stopover. It was one that I was glad to get through too because it felt just as dysphoric to me as being a man and I wasn't able to hide behind my old disguise anymore either.
I truly feel for you and can imagine your dilemma because I was there for a short while. I often hope and pray that you find a way to deal with it or move beyond it's unique constraints and find peace in your life.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
Hi,
I'm as curious as my sibling Tay is.
If someone could just respond by saying, "I do not believe because...", that would at least explain the mindset or the reasoning to us a little bit. I mean, how hard is it to just say, "Nature only allows for male and female.", if that is your belief?
Thank you,
Rebis
I don't think many could articulate why they don't believe so clearly Rebis. Even if they said that I don't think that would be the reason. The real reason is probably something more irrational.
I don't care if the answer is rational. I don't care if it's polite. I don't care if it's "You're all attention whoring loonies who just want to break what I'm setting up to do"
I just want an answer.
Posted on: September 04, 2007, 11:04:14 PM
And, like every time that I have asked anything like this, I am beginning to believe (not that I had much hope in the first place) that no one is going to answer.
I hate being me.
I find it really hard to believe that with all the people who voted that it wasn't an option that none have any reasoning for such a choice.
I mean even people who don't feel that who you're attracted to could possibly be innate and those who think that MtF's and FtM's are nothing more than crossdressing perverts have reasons for their beliefs as irrational and illogical as some of them are. They're also not afraid to say why either in many cases.
Why is it then that if these reasonings make sense enough to choose an option on a poll that dismisses someone elses identity entirely is it so difficult to type that reasoning just to satisfy the curiosity of those you are dismissing?
I guess it is difficult to answer because as Cindi said, we don't understand it. Besides, when one is fixated on the binary gender system like most transsexuals are, we don't (want to) see past male and female, for this realization can threaten our core identity.
Personally and incidentally this is only MY opinion, I think the main reason why most of us are not able to see androgyne as a gender alternative is due to only one reason, insecurity.
tink :icon_chick:
Tink, the point of this thread i think was to find out why each PERSON voted the way they did, not hypotheticals on why you think people voted one way or the other.
For instance, you posted on the poll thread
QuoteI hope so. I just don't understand why some people would create threads in a form of a question and get all defensive and rude when our opinions are expressed. Anyway, I voted for the following option: (My personal opinion)
Quote
It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity
tink icon_chick
But didn't give any sort of explination as to why YOU voted that way. That's what's being looked for here. :)
So you disregard a whole group of people, making their numbers show up as irrelevant and making it even HARDER for them to get rights because YOU are afraid that if we get rights and good treatment and are seen as valid, YOU might not be seen as valid?
So you'd rather we stayed in the shadows just so you can have what you want?
Well, Regina, this poll shows that, while a large number of androgynes are young, on Susan's, at least, there are some older ones. Given that fewer people over 30 hang out online than people under 30, I think it is fair to assume that there are many people over 30 that are androgyne.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv300%2Ftaineyah%2FPicture71.png&hash=1a352390ae4a1cfa0ed5739d66eeb8fd29247a04)
As far as physical goes, I have strong feelings of dysphoria. The forums are peppered with my expression of my NEED for a hysterectomy and probable mastectomy. I am barely hanging on some days and as time passes, I'm getting worse.
What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me. What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.
EDITED by aineko to be not a personal attack:
This entire argument is coming off as really hypocritical.
Quote from: Emelye on September 04, 2007, 05:16:17 PMIt was one that I was glad to get through too because it felt just as dysphoric to me as being a man and I wasn't able to hide behind my old disguise anymore either.
Yes... that is so true for me too... the dysphoria is still there because I still have not officially freed myself from the old gender role-- and added to that is the extra discomfort of visibly not fitting into that role either. While I feel much inner relief and happiness to have gotten so far toward my goal, paradoxically the outer discomfort has increased-- until I finally break on through to the other side.
Tried to run, tried to hide.
Break on through to the other side!Can't wait!
See why it's so hard to imagine actually camping out on top of the razor's edge. For us one-half-of-the-binary folks, androgyny is a tribulation to be gotten through with all due speed. Gender blurring was the cool edgy radical thing during the latter half of the 1990s and the first years of the 2000s. Now may be the time for us binary-half types to say you know, we matter too.
And having gotten a wider view of gender crossing from multiple perspectives, regardless of where we settle in, I think we'll all be the better for it.
By the way, I'm someone who voted for it being a valid gender identity. I can definitely grasp the concept intellectually, even though I don't feel it.
I have NOT claimed to be a woman or a man at the same time. And bigendered people or fluid gendered people may be man or woman at any given moment. They fall under the androgyne umbrella.
So because society has had something since the beginning, it should not be violated. There goes gay marriage. It shouldn't be allowed. It will never be permitted. There goes full transition for all of you. It isn't tradition. Shouldn't be allowed.
You violate society's views and ideas, too. Please dont' forget that.
Because I'm not ftm or mtf or cisgendered. I'm not doing this for kicks or fun. Androgyne is a blanket term encompassing several different identities.
And what you refer to is androgynous people, which is an appearance, not an identity.
I feel like this. We lack the language to express it. I do not identify as a woman. I do not identify as a man. I identify as an androgyne (neutrois, one of the subcategories, is more accurate). Why? Because it is the only way I have to explain how I have felt since early childhood. Lost in a sea of gender.
Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me. What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.
Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?
If the reason of this thread is to express your anger towards those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me. What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.
Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?
If the reason of this thread is to express your anger to those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.
tink :icon_chick:
She's right, Tink. Why can't you see that? 50 years ago, transitioning to female would have been something looked down on deeply. Just like you all look down on me now. 100 years ago? Worse. 400 years ago? You would have been BURNED AT THE STAKE.
She's raising a valid point, so please refrain from bapping people on the noses just for challenging you. I don't recall any namecalling. Hypocrite IS an accurate descriptor here.
PS: Warning people away from my thread is REAL mature.
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM
P.S. If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.
Also, threadlock because you don't like being called to task on your actions?
Nice.
hey Tay,
i think some may not understand your situation is as the same as general society not understanding ours, i.e., transgendered.
perhaps you'll have to do some ambassadorial duties on the subject. just from my point of view, with MTF, people can either mock us, or date us. But with andros, like Pat, the par excellance from SNL, people just don't know how to respond, and that creates confusion and suspicion.
but, we're all in the same boat and if some people can't understand your state of being, and esp. for those who are struggling with theirs (prob. most here on this board), then you'll know what kind of people you're dealing with.
finally, keep that andro chin up, and live to fight another day sister.. er.. brother... er... you. :)
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me. What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.
Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?
If the reason of this thread is to express your anger towards those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.
so I broke my post. ><
I call it like I see it, Tink. Androgynes hurt the same as we do, only we have the right to prove it?
So I should just believe your impossible-to-actually-verify claims to your own identity, right? In spite of the fact that a lot of society ISN'T accepting towards TS? Because somehow you're more special than an androgyne?
Amazingly. Blatant. Hypocrisy. By your own arguments, neither you nor I should be listened to on how we feel inside, because Nature doesn't allow it, because we're not meant to be that way. Because Society has a very hard time accepting it.
Roll back the clock 50 years, 60 years, we were fighting damn hard for the same rights you casually strip from Tay. Congratulations.
We can understand their experience. We know we're wrong. We know we hurt inside and need to fix ourselves. We can understand.
If you bloody well try, anyway.
Tay, it is nothing about you. It is larger than that. And even if some were willing to change their minds, it is not going to be an automatic process. If you want me to be a real double-hypocrite about it, I could say what you want to hear, would that be better?
tink :icon_chick:
No. I want you to see your own hypocrisy. Maybe let it sink in. Maybe that can start to change something. It's NOT automatic. I have to fight for every. f-ing. mind. I. change.
Everyone.
And I will my whole life.
I WILL challenge your views. Why? Because if I don't, there is no way you will ever change.
I'm sick to death of the holier than thou attitude of some people on this site. Put yourself in even your own head 100 years ago. You'd be sitting EXACTLY where I am now. Consider that. Just think about it.
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
I'm sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about. Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone. But I can certainly see why some think that way.
I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:33:31 PM
Tay, it is nothing about you. It is larger than that. And even if some were willing to change their minds, it is not going to be an automatic process. If you want me to be a real double-hypocrite about it, I could say what you want to hear, would that be better?
tink :icon_chick:
Yes, it is larger than that and it isn't an automatic process. This isn't being shown in the national media at this very moment either. This is being dealt with HERE. I don't think it's so much about 'changing minds' either. Just open up your eyes to a slightly different view. It's not difficult to see the similarities and how hypocracy can sneak right in when you allow the almighty society to dictate what is and is not acceptable.
Candi, the ambassadorial approach hasn't worked thus far. At all. Because those who hold the opinion that I am not valid simply ignore my words or say "Oh dear. I'm sorry you have the blues. Feel better." and move on.
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:42:01 PM
I'm sorry but I don't think it has nothing to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about. Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone. But I can certainly see why some think that way.
I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.
tink :icon_chick:
If you made an effort, you might actually be able to understand this. The problem is, you're not, you're dismissing it out of hand and closing your eyes to any recognition or attempt at understanding.
Your holier-than-thou attitude comes from the ignorance of the struggles that have had to be gone through to get our brand of GID recognized, but suddenly other brands are worthless?
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:40:40 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
I concur. Perhaps I should leave this thread alone now.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:42:01 PM
I'm sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about. Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone. But I can certainly see why some think that way.
I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.
tink :icon_chick:
And clearly, asking others to put themselves in your shoes, or even to look at themselves for a moment, in a larger context, is a waste of time. I'll keep that in mind and go back to hiding under my rock. After all. I'm not real. I'm just a challenge to society. I don't need anything that other transgendered people need. I should just suck it up, right?
After all, sucking it up works for every other trans person on this board, right?
Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:45:11 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:40:40 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working
I concur. Perhaps I should leave this thread alone now.
tink :icon_chick:
There are several things I would like to say here. I typed out several of them, but this early in the game, getting banned will do me no good. Suffice it to say, leaving this thread would be best for you if you are this intent on keeping your world-view of binary-worship intact.
Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:29:59 PM
hey Tay,
perhaps you'll have to do some ambassadorial duties on the subject. just from my point of view, with MTF, people can either mock us, or date us.
Now that I have identify as an androgyne it has made me come to respect TS's alot more(not that i didn;t respect them before.) If a girl I was going out with ever told me she was a MTF TS and I really loved/liked her I would except her. Afterall she is a woman and so what if she was a man before she discovered she was really meant to be a woman and she's living as the gender that she feels she is.
On the contrary I do understand. I think its not only a valid identity (which is who you friggin are), but also progressive thinking in my opinion. :D
Hi,
I guess Tay has left the site. I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.
The only things I ask is that people refrain from using words such as "hypocrite" and that the topic not be broadened so that it is no longer recognizable.
The question is Why don't you believe in androgyne as a gender identity? If you do not believe that androgyne is not a valid form of gender identity, please state why you believe as you do.
There have been some good points made in previous posts within this thread. If I ever get any sleep, maybe I'll pull them together and add them as a sort of summary post.
Thank you for your continued participation and, please, remember we can disagree and discuss without hurting each other.
Thank you all,
Rebis
Quote from: Blanche on September 06, 2007, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: Rebis on September 06, 2007, 02:51:59 AM
Hi,
I guess Tay has left the site. I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.
Good grief! I hope you're more well-manered to interact with disagreement. On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations. I've got nothing to gain by them.
As fruitless as this conversation may appear to be, it is a source of nutrition for those of us who are in the wilderness. :)
Holy crap! I kind of wish I caught this topic before it got overheated.
I'm kind of doubtful anyone is still reading it but let me take a shot here.
Sure the term Androgyne is confusing in and of itself because it encompasses a number of different specific situations. Transexuals for the most part outwardly seem to have very similair concepts on which they are reacting, or atleast its summarized as such.(Mainly being born the wrong sex for their gender)
Androgynes as a whole follow a similiar concept (again its a blanket term with many specific situations underneath), and at the least should be treated with the same respect that is excepted to be shown to TS folk. The only significant difference is their proposed final destination in the gender journey. Sure people are going to hold back this respect because they don't get Androgynes quite yet. Foreign ideas take time to seep in.
One might ask well if its not a concrete situation, can it be an actual identity. Yes and no. Its not the true identity, the specific cases underneath are the specific identities but if you think its hard to understand a general concept of in the middle, just imagine having to keep up with all the specific identities. So androgynes understanding this on some level try to generalize the concept to make it easier to cope with. That way if you understand any of the specific identities underneath(fluid, intergendered, neutrosis), you could derive partial understanding of some of the others just by association under Androgyne.
And the comment was made that some of us claim to be both male and female at the same time and that seems contradicting of what an androgyne is. You'd probably be referring to the bigender folk with such a comment. Perhaps we are in fact incorrectly identified as androgynes as a result, but it is again only so we don't end up seperating ourselves into infinitely small groups of who we can relate to. If we're hurting the validity of the androgynes with our existance, let me set the record straight. What is commonly called bigender is actually more appropriately called two-spirit and though usually manifests directly related to gender is at its core a spirtual state where two spirits cohabitate within one body. This situation has been around as far back as the native americans and concievably further so. Again maybe too complex for this topic but that leads me to......
You really can't convince people of anything if they don't want to listen. That being said, if you don't understand what someone is experiencing or what they identify as or with, the best thing you could do for them is try to understand who and what they are. Ask questions. Who knows, you might find the understanding they deserve.
Mia and Marq
Thank you all who have taken the time to ask me questions of the time I've been here.
You don't know how much it means to me that you're reaching out to listen to us
I hope each of you who has walks away with a little extra insight into the world
Oh yeah and thanks for actually reading this far.
Shows you haven't given up on the topic and thats important
Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 06, 2007, 03:51:23 AM
Holy crap! I kind of wish I caught this topic before it got overheated.
I'm kind of doubtful anyone is still reading it but let me take a shot here.
Sure the term Androgyne is confusing in and of itself because it encompasses a number of different specific situations. Transexuals for the most part outwardly seem to have very similair concepts on which they are reacting, or atleast its summarized as such.(Mainly being born the wrong sex for their gender)
Androgynes as a whole follow a similiar concept (again its a blanket term with many specific situations underneath), and at the least should be treated with the same respect that is excepted to be shown to TS folk. The only significant difference is their proposed final destination in the gender journey. Sure people are going to hold back this respect because they don't get Androgynes quite yet. Foreign ideas take time to seep in.
One might ask well if its not a concrete situation, can it be an actual identity. Yes and no. Its not the true identity, the specific cases underneath are the specific identities but if you think its hard to understand a general concept of in the middle, just imagine having to keep up with all the specific identities. So androgynes understanding this on some level try to generalize the concept to make it easier to cope with. That way if you understand any of the specific identities underneath(fluid, intergendered, neutrosis), you could derive partial understanding of some of the others just by association under Androgyne.
And the comment was made that some of us claim to be both male and female at the same time and that seems contradicting of what an androgyne is. You'd probably be referring to the bigender folk with such a comment. Perhaps we are in fact incorrectly identified as androgynes as a result, but it is again only so we don't end up seperating ourselves into infinitely small groups of who we can relate to. If we're hurting the validity of the androgynes with our existance, let me set the record straight. What is commonly called bigender is actually more appropriately called two-spirit and though usually manifests directly related to gender is at its core a spirtual state where two spirits cohabitate within one body. This situation has been around as far back as the native americans and concievably further so. Again maybe too complex for this topic but that leads me to......
You really can't convince people of anything if they don't want to listen. That being said, if you don't understand what someone is experiencing or what they identify as or with, the best thing you could do for them is try to understand who and what they are. Ask questions. Who knows, you might find the understanding they deserve.
Mia and Marq
Thank you all who have taken the time to ask me questions of the time I've been here.
You don't know how much it means to me that you're reaching out to listen to us
I hope each of you who has walks away with a little extra insight into javascript:moreSmileys();
[more]the world
Oh yeah and thanks for actually reading this far.
Shows you haven't given up on the topic and thats important
This is a fantastic post Marq and Mia... Thank you very much... You explained more to me about androgyne (what it is and what it isn't) in one post then anyone has ever explained before :)
Thanks again :)
:icon_hug:
edited... cause I'm a dumb-butt and misspelled Marq....
nice post marq and mia, i see where your coming from.
Personally, i dont feel androgyne is a a gender identity, because i cannot comprehend anything but man, and woman, there are two genders to me, and this binary is a social mainstay. it has been for ever. Androgyne seems to have arrisen very recently in my eyes, and while there is significant history of transexual people in multiple cultures and ages. andrognye seems quite recent. If im wrong, please correct me there. I do however belive its a perfectly valid form of gender expression. a person should be how they feel most comfortable. but biologically, there is only male and female, in humans, regardless of other species, (plus asexual creatures are generally female with the ability to self fertilise, and reproduce by either mitosis or meosis.) the age thing does seem interesting to me, could this be a form of teen identity crisis that grew? i dont know, but my world consists of men and women, regardless of how they choose to express thier bodies, someone wants to be a they? thats cool with me.
one of my best friends came out to me recently as androgyne, (female bodied) and they said it was to them, an expression, and that they 'felt' male, to them, it was a middleground for comfort. but thats only one persons view of themsef.
R :police:
Quote from: regina on September 05, 2007, 08:36:34 PM
It's not so much that I don't believe in the possibility of androgyne as a gender identity, it's more that the people I've encountered who identified as such did so more out of not feeling totally comfortable as male or female rather than some strong identity as androgyne. To me it's harder to connect with someone who feels they're something because they aren't something else than someone who has a clear identity for very specific reasons.
And I still don't pretend to understand many of the aspects of identifying as androgyne other than the fact that it's defiant about the gender binary. Nor do I get how this is manifested physically. For example, if someone identifies as a combination of male and female, but retains the realities of a male body, then to me that person seems more like a femmy male than an androgyne. I also feel as if I've never met androgynes who were much older than their 20s. Maybe that's the limitation of my experience, but it always seems as if they're younger people who exploring their gender and sexuality. The only older androgynes I ever seen were people who transitioned mtf, found they didn't really fit into that category, and are living as androgynes kind of as a default. That doesn't make it less legit, but again, it's defining yourself by what you're not, rather than by what you are. On some level if you think of genderqueer and androgyne as synonymous, my suspicions about genderqueer as a gender is because the ones I've know identify as such out of largely political motives, and in my experience, that makes gender a choice, which is really distant from my experience.
Wow, I really missed quite a conversation last night, I was busy and never logged on.
Gina, it isn't just younger people, I'm 51. Like some of the older androgynes you've met, I transitioned m2f, did a year plus rlt, and then came to an understanding that I was neither male nor female. I lived as neither gender for many years since then until bumping into the term androgyne, and realizing that this word was a reasonable fit to how I feel.
Very interesting thought about defining oneself as what they aren't, as opposed to what they are. I'd say that this perhaps happened for me because I'd previously never heard the term androgyne as a potential identity, only as an expression. And yet it is an old word in gender history. Imagine if you'd never heard the term transsexual, however, from the moment you heard the word, you immediately knew that it described what you felt and what you had to do. That's what happened for me when I finally heard the word androgyne, and started discussing things with other people here who identified as such. There was a name for what I'd been feeling, and describing as simply neither, because I had no other words. I also think it's different than genderqueer, although I feel kinship with those who do it for political reasons, I'm not doing it for those reasons. I'm simply not either gender as we know it.
Identifying as femmy male just doesn't cut it for me, I've never felt male, and I've felt that at such an intense level of discomfort as to believe that I was/am TS and to seek therapy and treatment for such. It was only after a year rlt, that I came to the understanding that although, not male, I wasn't necessarily female either. Obviously, other androgynes feel very differently.
I'm sorry to see that Tay has left, I've always enjoyed T's posts and outlook on life, and hope to see Tay again around here, or somewhere.
Zythyra
I am so glad I didn't find this topic and read through some of the answers to Tay's questions earlier.
I'm enraged enough already.
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:02:09 AM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?
Androgyne is actually a category filled with several gender identity descriptions. The one that is between is a mixed form. There's also bigendered and nuetrois.
Quote
On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations. I've got nothing to gain by them.
This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To all:
Seriously, is our collective memory so short? Have we forgotten our history? Do we refuse to gain any knowledge of neurology and psychology and biology? Why is it so hard for you people?
Why do we think we have any right to discriminate and mistreat androgynes? We should know better. I am deeply ashamed of the TS community at this point. Deeply, horribly ashamed. I feel on edge just even being associated with this community now.
Have any of you noticed how much credibility the Gay community has lost for their transphobia? How can a group fight for its rights when it engages in such hypocrisy? There are people that treat that as a damning characteristic of these groups and have decided to not aid us or the Gay community because of our hypocrisy.
And do we even deserve to be given acceptance when we are just as bad as our tormentors?
I wonder sometimes. I honestly do.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
P.S. Tink, I am really confused. Are you trying to say give up because its hard? I can understand warning people that it would be a long and hard path and not to expect miracles. But telling androgynes to say, "meh, screw it, I'll go hide" is as completely unhelpful as to tell me or you to "just deal" with having a penis. Can you explain since I prolly misunderstood you?
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:23:01 AM
The replies to Regina were perfection. I can't add to them and I hope they explained the situation well enough for you, Regina. It just looks like you don't have the experience you need with the androgyne community to know what's up with it.
And that's no big deal. Its easy to get experience.
:)
Quote from: regina on September 06, 2007, 11:01:11 AM
Which is fine. I'm glad you found something that works for you and a realization that MTF transition wasn't totally right for you. I still feel as if people who identify as androgyne have a hard time expressing what this experience is like. Other than saying "I feel like myself" (which I hope we all do) I don't understand what aspects of each gender you have and what aspects of neither gender you have? Is that a fair question to answer? And I'm still not getting what the practical, real life differences there are between people on the FTM or MTF gender who don't 'go all the way' and yourselves? Is it just semantics or self-perception? Because the idea of a body with characteristics of each gender seems in common, as it the commonality of mixed gender expression.
Gina,
Yes, it's a very fair question, and of course you'll hear different answers from each person within the androgyne continuum. Years ago I read a statement by author Jamaica Kincaid that was profound for me, paraphrased, she said it isn't possible to tell the history of ones oppression using the language of the oppressor. For many of us in the androgyne community, we're still exploring and discovering who we are, and at least for me, need to create the language with which to tell our stories.
OK, to try and answer your question about practical real life differences. In another thread this morning, I said that I could, if I were to use terminology of Harry Benjamin standards, consider myself to be non-op, non-hrt M2F TS. But that doesn't fit exactly either. Partially because I don't like identifying who I am as a medical condition, and also because within the TS community, there are some people who proclaim that non-op simply doesn't exist. Another reason is that the word androgyne is ancient, and feels to me as though it encompasses the spiritual aspect of my gender variance.
I guess that differences between "M2F or F2M who don't go all the way" and androgyne are subtle, and also a matter of self perception. There could be two people who appear to be at the same place on the gender continuum, one might identify as M2F, another as bigender, another as androgyne.
How it all feels to me personally; I am not male, there is no question about it. I feel that dysphoria as intensely as any TS friend with whom I've discussed this. In fact, my therapist didn't question that I am TS, and wrote the letters to enable me to proceed to the next step of HRT. After considerable thought and analysis, I realized that just because I was not male, this didn't automatically make me female. I will also say though that I was happier living as a woman than I ever have been as a man. The path in between or outside the binary isn't easy.
Thanks for asking thoughtful questions, by engaging in dialog we can all, androgyne and non-androgyne, gain better understanding of what it is to be androgyne.
Zythyra
imagine this. its 1956 men are men...tough, providers, there to control women. women are women. they grow up to get married and have children and serve their men. anything outside of this - gay, lesbian, trans, single women, career women, stay at home dads - is considered wrong and is swept under the carpet.
here, in 2007, there's an entire cable station dedicated to GLBT programming. nearly everyone has seen an episode of will and grace and the vast majority either liked it or thought it was boring, few were outraged.
but here, it seems like so many people are obsessed with that 1956 scenario.
let me ask you this. what is a man? what is a woman?
ignore secondary sex characteristics. ignore mass media. ignore what you've been told your entire life of what men and women should be. where does that leave you? it leaves you with a human being.
a human with feelings, and hopes and dreams and creativity like all of us. this human might like cooking, might like driving cars, making things from wood, knitting, playing sports, taking care of children, might like sticking fries up their nose. are any of these things specifically male or female activities? or have you been told your entire life that they are?
androgyne (especially neutrois), as an identity, has nothing to do with the body. at least, thats how i see it. it has everything to do with the spirit. so many TS say "i'm a female mind in a male body, i need to change my body to match", when in fact, male and female are just words associated with groups of desires, activities, and expectations we've built over the years. an androgyne can say "i am neither. i am both. i can switch. my body may say one thing, but i refuse to let my spirit be limited by other people's expectations just because my body looks a certain way". yes, its partially a societal thing. no, androgynes are NOT doing it just for kicks. its not an identity crisis, or not wanting to commit to transition. its not feeling right as a certain sex, and i expect we can all relate to that.
i hope this makes at least a little sense >>
Oh, wow, this thread has really exploded. Sigh.
One thing that hasn't been said here yet is that at least for some androgyne variants, gender and sex are far less tightly coupled than for the average trans- or cisgendered person.
With the cisgendered majority, gender is obviously congruent with sex. For transsexuals, the overall goal includes achieving such congruence, and even the less strict transgendered work towards that goal, just not all the way. This is not necessarily the case for androgynes.
Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.
Like Zythyra, I've spent some decades feeling I'm not quite a man. Last spring it got to the point I thought I was MtF, but on closer inspection that didn't feel quite right either. The best label I've seen so far is intergendered (thank you, Marq & Mia for it): the way I feel about my gender is pretty much analogous to the intersexed condition.
I'm still trying to figure out how this identity will affect my gender expression. I'm also aware that most of the outside world will see me as a weird -- or should I say queer -- man, based on the gender marker in my entry in the various government registers. I still know I'm neither a man nor a woman, regardless of what I choose to eventually do (or not do) with my body.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 06, 2007, 02:00:50 PM
With the cisgendered majority, gender is obviously congruent with sex. For transsexuals, the overall goal includes achieving such congruence, and even the less strict transgendered work towards that goal, just not all the way. This is not necessarily the case for androgynes.
Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.
*nods*
Some medical writings about transsexuals refer to a total "psychosexual inversion" (ie male phenotype and total 'female' mental wiring, or vice versa). I believe this is very much an ideal and few if any people have a 100% inversion (and few if any 0% too)*. For androgynes it isn't simply a matter of percentages, which bits of your psyche are affected has a lot of bearing on what path is appropriate. Some may be more concerned with physical changes, other with social, others may require both. Indeed some may find that various parts of their personality are in conflict meaning there is no position that makes them totally feel at ease.
(*note that not being wired totally as one thing does not prohibit a person from being perfectly justified in identifying as being within the normal variance for that thing and therefore BEING that thing (I don't want people to think that what I said above devalues identifying as a binary gender))
The problem with trying to define what it is to be an androgyne is that it's trying to cover the entire spectrum of possible gender identities except for two specific 'ideals'. I see accepting androgyne as a gender identity to be based on a very simple question:
If you believe it's possible for a person's brain to be wired the complete opposite to their body is it not also possible that the wiring may emerge as various combinations and/or with some elements absent?
Quote from: DRAIN on September 06, 2007, 01:52:35 PMat least, thats how i see it. it has everything to do with the spirit. so many TS say "i'm a female mind in a male body, i need to change my body to match", when in fact, male and female are just words associated with groups of desires, activities, and expectations we've built over the years. an androgyne can say "i am neither. i am both. i can switch. my body may say one thing, but i refuse to let my spirit be limited by other people's expectations just because my body looks a certain way".
Male and female are not just words. Nor are they just associated with desires and activities. Nobody here is clinging to 50s ideals. There's more to gender than just what you like to do.
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: Tay on September 05, 2007, 09:22:51 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM
Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me. What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far? if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system? I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity. The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for. IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time. I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men. When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior. Why? because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that .
tink :icon_chick:
P.S. and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread. I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words. Let's have other members answer. I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I? Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.
search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.
Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?
If the reason of this thread is to express your anger to those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.
tink :icon_chick:
She's right, Tink. Why can't you see that? 50 years ago, transitioning to female would have been something looked down on deeply. Just like you all look down on me now. 100 years ago? Worse. 400 years ago? You would have been BURNED AT THE STAKE.
She's raising a valid point, so please refrain from bapping people on the noses just for challenging you. I don't recall any namecalling. Hypocrite IS an accurate descriptor here.
PS: Warning people away from my thread is REAL mature.
Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
I am so glad I didn't find this topic and read through some of the answers to Tay's questions earlier.
I'm enraged enough already.
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:02:09 AM
Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
What don't I understand? If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?
Androgyne is actually a category filled with several gender identity descriptions. The one that is between is a mixed form. There's also bigendered and nuetrois.
Quote
if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?
No, that's just mixed and sometimes bigendered. The nuetrois are neither men nor women, 100%.
The rest of your post is based on the wrong information above so hopefully my corrections can help you rethink your views.
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:09:23 AM
Quote from: Blanche on September 06, 2007, 03:19:31 AM
Quote from: Rebis on September 06, 2007, 02:51:59 AM
Hi,
I guess Tay has left the site. I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.
Good grief! I hope you're more well-manered to interact with disagreement.
Because you're such a fine example of grace under fire and self control in debate.
::)
Quote
On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations. I've got nothing to gain by them.
This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To all:
Seriously, is our collective memory so short? Have we forgotten our history? Do we refuse to gain any knowledge of neurology and psychology and biology? Why is it so hard for you people?
Why do we think we have any right to discriminate and mistreat androgynes? We should know better. I am deeply ashamed of the TS community at this point. Deeply, horribly ashamed. I feel on edge just even being associated with this community now.
Have any of you noticed how much credibility the Gay community has lost for their transphobia? How can a group fight for its rights when it engages in such hypocrisy? There are people that treat that as a damning characteristic of these groups and have decided to not aid us or the Gay community because of our hypocrisy.
And do we even deserve to be given acceptance when we are just as bad as our tormentors?
I wonder sometimes. I honestly do.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
P.S. Tink, I am really confused. Are you trying to say give up because its hard? I can understand warning people that it would be a long and hard path and not to expect miracles. But telling androgynes to say, "meh, screw it, I'll go hide" is as completely unhelpful as to tell me or you to "just deal" with having a penis. Can you explain since I prolly misunderstood you?
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:23:01 AM
The replies to Regina were perfection. I can't add to them and I hope they explained the situation well enough for you, Regina. It just looks like you don't have the experience you need with the androgyne community to know what's up with it.
And that's no big deal. Its easy to get experience.
:)
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 06, 2007, 02:00:50 PM
Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.
Like Zythyra, I've spent some decades feeling I'm not quite a man. Last spring it got to the point I thought I was MtF, but on closer inspection that didn't feel quite right either. The best label I've seen so far is intergendered (thank you, Marq & Mia for it): the way I feel about my gender is pretty much analogous to the intersexed condition.
I'm still trying to figure out how this identity will affect my gender expression. I'm also aware that most of the outside world will see me as a weird -- or should I say queer -- man, based on the gender marker in my entry in the various government registers. I still know I'm neither a man nor a woman, regardless of what I choose to eventually do (or not do) with my body.
Nfr,
Yes, how we feel gender seems to be an important aspect for many of us. A feeling of gender variance is very much present in my life, regardless of how/if/when it's expressed externally. For me, one of the most painful aspects of being androgyne is that I don't feel very safe to express my androgyny with clothing choices as I might in a non-discriminatory world, and so I am invisible. I don't really care if I'm just perceived as a "weird guy in a dress", however I don't want to end up a "dead weird guy in a dress".
Zythyra
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes
Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no
When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid. I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.
Quote
Male and female are not just words.
i should have said "man and woman" sorry ^^;
QuoteNobody here is clinging to 50s ideals.
i wouldn't say nobody, but *shrug*
QuoteThere's more to gender than just what you like to do.
like what?
Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes
Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no
When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid. I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.
There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'
I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:45:09 PM
There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'
I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.
I think you missed the point of my reply. No minority group has an obligation to ACCEPT another group, or indeed an obligation to think about the issue. I'd think the members of such a group would be a little more sensitive though, and either at least TRY to get their heads around it or just not engage in the debate at all. If I just have unrealistically high expectations about that sort of thing then I apologise...
Hi,
I agree with Zythyra that the androgyne person has existed for as long
er as the binary person. There is a certain point in western culture where you see the rituals and the customs of the ancients become outlawed and suppressed. The suppression of our identities is what gives us no language to express ourselves in concrete terms. We are a peopl who have had most of our historical culture eradicated by the powerful institutions that either viewed us as a threat, unnatural (which in a way, some people here do), or as an easy target.
We have no language now - especially in English. If we are not a valid group of people, then why do the native languages of North America have a language for us? In the U.S. most of this language has been suppressed and some of it lost because of the government's position on stripping Native Americans of their culture.
The point is that the concept and the language has existed in the past, but has been eradicated at the convenience of 'civilized' culture and "tradition".
Almost all we have right now is a small little struggle where we are trying to retake our place amongst the rest of you. First, we need to explain ourselves to ourselves. All we have are vague statements like "I am I". I mean, what the hell does that mean? It's all we got right now, but not forever.
Just because we have no concrete method for describing who we are does not mean that we are not who and what we claim to be.
I am considering beginning a dialog with my gender counselor to see if there are any 'modern' terms that might help to describe us. I think that stinks, however because I don't want people to take me seriously just because the medical community creates some terminology like 'Gender Atrophy Syndrome' or some other pickling phrase.
Rebis
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes
Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no
When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid. I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.
Adding to what Andra said, I believe that the disagreement is important in itself in this situation. By having to put forth our case, we are forced to focus and to present our ideas and feelings much better than if we never had to try.
QuoteI agree with Zythyra that the androgyne person has existed for as longer as the binary person. There is a certain point in western culture where you see the rituals and the customs of the ancients become outlawed and suppressed. The suppression of our identities is what gives us no language to express ourselves in concrete terms. We are a peopl who have had most of our historical culture eradicated by the powerful institutions that either viewed us as a threat, unnatural (which in a way, some people here do), or as an easy target.
We have no language now - especially in English. If we are not a valid group of people, then why do the native languages of North America have a language for us? In the U.S. most of this language has been suppressed and some of it lost because of the government's position on stripping Native Americans of their culture.
The point is that the concept and the language has existed in the past, but has been eradicated at the convenience of 'civilized' culture and "tradition".
Rebis,
I recently finished reading Barbara Ehrenreich's, Dancing in the Streets; a History of Collective Joy. A fascinating book which talks of the disappearance of dance, ceremony and ritual in modern society. There are a number of mentions of cross dressing as part of ritual in ancient societies as well.
We are really in our infancy of reclaiming our place in society, and finding our lost gender variant languages. Goo goo ga... oog ogg og ;)
QuoteI am considering beginning a dialog with my gender counselor to see if there are any 'modern' terms that might help to describe us. I think that stinks, however because I don't want people to take me seriously just because the medical community creates some terminology like 'Gender Atrophy Syndrome' or some other pickling phrase.
LOL, I've got GAS (Gender Atrophy Syndrome)... I suggest Gender Enhancement Syndrome instead. GES what gender I am now?? ::)
Zythyra
Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:45:09 PM
There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'
I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.
I think you missed the point of my reply. No minority group has an obligation to ACCEPT another group, or indeed an obligation to think about the issue. I'd think the members of such a group would be a little more sensitive though, and either at least TRY to get their heads around it or just not engage in the debate at all. If I just have unrealistically high expectations about that sort of thing then I apologise...
Well, we would hope that other marginalized groups would have acceptance, but that still doesn't explain why they don't believe androgyne is a valid identity. I don't understand why people can believe that one's gender can be opposite one's sex, but NOT believe that other gender variations are possible.
The only thing I can think is that they only see binary, and are invested in the binary.
I believe in the binary. I believe in male and female, but I also believe that nothing in nature is absolute and that not everybody fits the binary.
I see it as no different than sex. Intersexed people do not fit either sex. Why must gender?
This is quite a fascinating discussion, many of the issues surrounding androgynes have been expressed, such as:
We are not a homogenous group
For most, there is no recognisably 'androgyne expression'
Physically humans are for the most part Male or Female, it is easy to wonder how you could be anything else.
Current 'American/English' society and language does not support the existence of androgynes (thought it can easily be shown this exists in other cultures)
As a result we are practically 'invisible'. It can be difficult accepting something you can't see or feel or understand. I guess this does require a certain amount of faith - but so does accepting that someone can have a gender opposite to their physical sex. We can't see that either.
I find it disappointing that there are a number here that can not accept the possibility of other gender variations. It invalidates what I feel inside, it is like being told I am mistaken, that what I feel can't be real.
All you need to accept is that what someone else feels is just as valid as what you feel. This is what we are really talking about because a gender identity is the gender people identify with internally.
I am very proud of you, my friends. :)
It makes me happy to see this thread become a beautiful conversation.
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 04:08:42 PM
Well, we would hope that other marginalized groups would have acceptance, but that still doesn't explain why they don't believe androgyne is a valid identity. I don't understand why people can believe that one's gender can be opposite one's sex, but NOT believe that other gender variations are possible.
The only thing I can think is that they only see binary, and are invested in the binary.
I believe in the binary. I believe in male and female, but I also believe that nothing in nature is absolute and that not everybody fits the binary.
I see it as no different than sex. Intersexed people do not fit either sex. Why must gender?
Nero - just asking for clerification so I can understand what you mean --
So you're saying that you believe that there is a "binary", a male and a female 'option'
:icon_chick: :icon_builder:
But that there are also "non binary" 'options'
:icon_biggrin: :icon_cute: :)
(yeah ok I like visual aids ;) )
and that they are all valid gender identities?
I think that's what you meant, but I think (please someone correct me if I am wrong) that the word "binary" means two and only two. So it means male and female. (period) So your post reads a little weird :)
this is too much for me exactly one week after grs. i'll organize my ideas and get back to ya rebis.
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions?
I'd love to see where in my post I told people that they can't have opinions. I must of missed it while I was writing the post.
Silly me.
::)
Actually I specifically recall calling the opinions, which they have a perfectly valid right to, hypocritical, ironic and even silly. When someone calls the sky orange, and I look at them like they're crazy, am I telling them they have no right to their opinion?
Obviously not.
And aren't you pushing my opinion down by your statements? ;)
Quote
As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
Funny how I never said anything like that. I said pretty specifically that a marginalized group that holds bigoted opinions are acting in an ironic, hypocritical and, dare I say it? A stupid way.
->-bleeped-<-s have plenty right to be opinionated. In fact we all have a right to be hypocritical windbags if we so desire. That doesn't mean, however, that I and others don't have a right to call someone on their hypocrisy.
Quote
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
I agree. So I'm a little confused as to why you quoted my post for your tirade? Maybe you misread? Or was I unclear?
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 11:57:09 PM
Quote from: Alison on September 06, 2007, 10:44:50 PM
(yeah ok I like visual aids ;) )
Must resist urge to make HIV and eyeball joke.... must resist.... must resist....
:icon_dizzy:
I know people like to call out each other on every little implied or directly stated injustice, inaccuracy, or contradiction but come on folks, alot of this is sounding like some pretty direct attacks on each other.
I know I repeat this part a lot but it rings true still, if someone isn't willing to listen to ever have their perspective widened, nothing you say to them is going to change that. Its falling on deaf ears. Pick the battles you can make a difference in.
What should be happening here (and to some extend through the mess of near personal attacks it is) is that the Androgyne group(including as large a sample of the identities there in (Ambigendered, bigendered, neutrosis, Fluid, etc..)) should share what it means to be an Androgyne so that others might understand things such as how we choose to express our gender situation will differ from person to person but doesn't mean we're not valid. What also should be happening here is everyone else outside of the androgyne folks should be submitting questions that would clarify what aspects of the concept they don't understand so they can appreciate what it is and what it isn't and maybe modify their perspective on it.
Everyone ask themselves if they think what they are posting is contributing to the growth of everyone involved with this topic or if you're looking to pick at people personally to emphasis their shortcomings.
I said about everything I could last post that I made in this topic(read it if you missed it and you're interested) so I'm not going to repeat myself again in some sort of "Who can shout their ideas loudest" over and over again.
One last thing though, ideas can be very old even if the words that describe the ideas may not. Androgyne is a relatively new term but the idea is not. If you're so inclined read about Native American cultures and how they viewed gender and you'll see what I mean.
Marq and Mia
Forever the peacekeeper, job of the two-spirited,
the Gift we share
Quote from: Sophia on September 07, 2007, 12:01:15 AM
Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions?
I'd love to see where in my post I told people that they can't have opinions. I must of missed it while I was writing the post.
Silly me.
::)
Actually I specifically recall calling the opinions, which they have a perfectly valid right to, hypocritical, ironic and even silly. When someone calls the sky orange, and I look at them like they're crazy, am I telling them they have no right to their opinion?
Obviously not.
And aren't you pushing my opinion down by your statements? ;)
Quote
As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
Funny how I never said anything like that. I said pretty specifically that a marginalized group that holds bigoted opinions are acting in an ironic, hypocritical and, dare I say it? A stupid way.
->-bleeped-<-s have plenty right to be opinionated. In fact we all have a right to be hypocritical windbags if we so desire. That doesn't mean, however, that I and others don't have a right to call someone on their hypocrisy.
Quote
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.
I agree. So I'm a little confused as to why you quoted my post for your tirade? Maybe you misread? Or was I unclear?
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 11:57:09 PM
Quote from: Alison on September 06, 2007, 10:44:50 PM
(yeah ok I like visual aids ;) )
Must resist urge to make HIV and eyeball joke.... must resist.... must resist....
:icon_dizzy:
Just quoted yours and Tay's, but there may have been others. Maybe I worded it incorrectly. I just don't agree with the idea that transsexuals should think a certain way or they're hypocrites. I just object to that general view. Not just in relation to this topic, but others well. The 'but you're transsexual, you of all people shouldn't hold this view' argument everytime a transsexual holds an opinion others disagree with. That's discrimination in itself.
I don't have the opinions I do
because I'm transsexual. I don't subscribe to the 'this is the opinion I'm supposed to have' club.
Posted on: September 07, 2007, 01:31:27 AM
Quote from: Alison link=topic=18938.msg145977#msg145977 date=1189136690
quote author=Nero link=topic=18938.msg145833#msg145833 date=1189112922]
Well, we would hope that other marginalized groups would have acceptance, but that still doesn't explain why they don't believe androgyne is a valid identity. I don't understand why people can believe that one's gender can be opposite one's sex, but NOT believe that other gender variations are possible.
The only thing I can think is that they only see binary, and are invested in the binary.
I believe in the binary. I believe in male and female, but I also believe that nothing in nature is absolute and that not everybody fits the binary.
I see it as no different than sex. Intersexed people do not fit either sex. Why must gender?
Maybe binary wasn't the right word. I believe in male and female genders. I believe the binary has been necessary since time began. Male and female are different and made so for a reason. I also believe that just as there are intersexed people, there are intergendered (or androgyne) people who also serve a purpose in the gender triangle.
It was meant to be this way - male, female, and androgyne. Each has a role to play in humanity's survival.
Men had their unique strengths to give, as did women, and androgynes had the gift of both. A sort of mediary, if you will. Without all three genders, our species wouldn't have survived.
Quote
Nero - just asking for clerification so I can understand what you mean --
So you're saying that you believe that there is a "binary", a male and a female 'option'
:icon_chick: :icon_builder:
But that there are also "non binary" 'options'
:icon_biggrin: :icon_cute: :)
(yeah ok I like visual aids ;) )
and that they are all valid gender identities?
I think that's what you meant, but I think (please someone correct me if I am wrong) that the word "binary" means two and only two. So it means male and female. (period) So your post reads a little weird :)
gotta tell u bro. this aint going nowhere. we better hold hands & dance together. if not we're all screwed.
Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.
If I want to "hold onto antiquated notions about about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony (talk about embellishment of words here ::)), that is my right. If I want to believe that the sky is orange or neon teal, that is my right. If peeps want to fight for other's rights, why dont they engage in groups and scream their lungs out? Do as you wish with your life and your rights. Dont ever suggest that I do the same, understood?
Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:17:28 PM
*nods*
Some medical writings about transsexuals refer to a total "psychosexual inversion" (ie male phenotype and total 'female' mental wiring, or vice versa). I believe this is very much an ideal and few if any people have a 100% inversion (and few if any 0% too)*. For androgynes it isn't simply a matter of percentages, which bits of your psyche are affected has a lot of bearing on what path is appropriate. Some may be more concerned with physical changes, other with social, others may require both. Indeed some may find that various parts of their personality are in conflict meaning there is no position that makes them totally feel at ease.
(*note that not being wired totally as one thing does not prohibit a person from being perfectly justified in identifying as being within the normal variance for that thing and therefore BEING that thing (I don't want people to think that what I said above devalues identifying as a binary gender))
The problem with trying to define what it is to be an androgyne is that it's trying to cover the entire spectrum of possible gender identities except for two specific 'ideals'. I see accepting androgyne as a gender identity to be based on a very simple question:
If you believe it's possible for a person's brain to be wired the complete opposite to their body is it not also possible that the wiring may emerge as various combinations and/or with some elements absent?
Arguing about how much a people 'should' care about issues not directly affecting them is fairly pointless, as we know from society in general, a lot of people rarely do. Whether it's (looking back in history), black vs gays, gays vs transgenders, transgenders vs androgynes it's evident that minority groups have the same flaw: they're made of people. (Soylent Green doesn't give a crap about you :D )
A lot of the arguments so far have been about the behaviour of specific androgynes. There are a lot of people who make a lot of effort to dress androgynously but still identify as male or female. There again there are a lot of phenotypically male who make a lot of effort to dress female but still identify as male. The androgyne community has it's equivalent of crossdressers and we want to make the distinction between them and gender identity driven androgynes as much as TSs want to make the distinction between TSs and CDs.
I really would like to see people address the question I posed earlier (quoted), I think it's the crux of the debate.
Everybody, please try to stay on topic. We had entered what I thought was a nice little conversation, however, it is reverting to being noise again.
This topic began as a request to understand the reasoning behind some people's opinions.
I think it has the potential to be a learning experience especially with some of the nice posts I've seen from androgynes that attempt to explain our position. I believe these posts compliment the initial question quite well.
IF you do not believe that androgyne is a valid gender identity, please explain why not?
IF you are an androgyne and you have a comment that addresses the reason you feel androgyne is a valid gender identity, then please state your reason. Also, if you have a response which directly addresses a reason given by a person who does not believe that androgyne is a valid gender identity, please post it.
Please try to avoid discussing other poster's states of minds and other off topic items. Please??? for me????
Hi Rebis,
the topic? oh yes! sorry.
but if we agree, we're told not to agree, but to state reasons.
well we have stated reasons, and when we do that, we are immediately attacked and called unsupportive. :(
one member on this thread said she was going to leave because she said this site was no longer supportive and "safe."
do i have to state again and again that i think IS is at the heart of the matter?
i will say again, IS (whether physical or psychological) is at the heart of the matter of transsexualism. that is equally true whether you are binary-identified or not. we're all in exactly the same boat, but, as individuals, we all have unique treatment regimens.
IS definitions, and IS treatment regimens need to be strongly incorporated into the SOC. this will help all of us fight back against opponents like Bailey and Dreger. Physical IS speaks for itself, but does not get adequate support from trans people. Psychological IS bluntly means that you are not insane because of your gender problems.
the nhs gives me hrt now, cos im IS, but wont give me grs till i go through the GIC in 5 years, thats deffinately incorporated in the SOC...
R :police:
I'm not goint to get involved in this post...Because I don't have enough time in these internet cafes to play the arguments.
But I will try and get a description of a positive androgyny. An androgyny FOR something, and will present it to the court some time next week.....
Quote from: Alison on September 06, 2007, 10:44:50 PM
So you're saying that you believe that there is a "binary", a male and a female 'option'
:icon_chick: :icon_builder:
But that there are also "non binary" 'options'
:icon_biggrin: :icon_cute: :)
I'm :icon_cute:
i like that thought, Male, and female, exist, as binary positions on the spectrum, and there is fluxuation between and around... the concept of gender spectra doesnt say male and female cant exist... i think thats some peoples problem here, misinterpriation.
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on September 07, 2007, 12:46:32 AM
Just quoted yours and Tay's, but there may have been others. Maybe I worded it incorrectly.
There were others most likely. I could've of misread too. I was running on about 3 hours of sleep. 3 hours of sleep makes Sophie's coherence go splat and it makes Sophie speak in the third person.
Quote
I just don't agree with the idea that transsexuals should think a certain way or they're hypocrites. I just object to that general view. Not just in relation to this topic, but others well. The 'but you're transsexual, you of all people shouldn't hold this view' argument everytime a transsexual holds an opinion others disagree with. That's discrimination in itself.
Fair enough. I disagree because I feel that hypocrisy is applied based on one's actions and the words one says and the opposing duality of them. If a transsexual has said time and time again to stop discriminating based on gender identity and then does so themselves, it really is hypocrisy. They are preaching one thing and practicing the exact opposite.
But I do agree that it shouldn't be applied willy nilly and there are a lot of people that throw around the word hypocrisy just to express disagreement with a view.
Quote
I don't have the opinions I do because I'm transsexual. I don't subscribe to the 'this is the opinion I'm supposed to have' club.
I can see how you'd be pissed with that interpretation. I'm sorry it came across that way.
Posted on: September 07, 2007, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: Blanche on September 07, 2007, 01:34:49 AM
Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.
If I want to "hold onto antiquated notions about about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony (talk about embellishment of words here ::)), that is my right.
Of course it is. When did I say you didn't have the right to do that?
But are you saying I don't have the right to say that its a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony?
That would be even more ironic. :D
Quote
If peeps want to fight for other's rights, why dont they engage in groups and scream their lungs out?
What do you think I'm doing hun?
Quote
Do as you wish with your life and your rights. Dont ever suggest that I do the same, understood?
Ohhhhhhh, are you telling me not to express my opinion about what you ought to do?
;D That's very very ironic considering the words you said:
Quote from: Blanche
If I want to "hold onto antiquated notions about about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony (talk about embellishment of words here ::)), that is my right.
If I want to tell you that you're being hypocritical, that you're wrong, and that you should be fighting for other people's rights, and if I want to embellish a little (I feel it applies perfectly and you have yet to provide convincing reasons why not),
that is my right. ::)
I hope you see the irony at least.
Posted on: September 07, 2007, 11:57:50 AM
Ellen please stay on topic. And since Tay has been banned its not like Tay can see your assessment of Tay's situation. So your advice can't help Tay when written here.
Quote from: Ellen Marie on September 07, 2007, 09:10:59 AM
Hi Rebis,
the topic? oh yes! sorry.
but if we agree, we're told not to agree, but to state reasons.
Actually I wouldn't mind hearing reasons for agreement, honestly. I like knowing people's motivations.
Quote
well we have stated reasons, and when we do that, we are immediately attacked and called unsupportive. :(
Well Ell, people have really only been called hypocritical. They actually are being unsupportive, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You can't support everyone, and people like, say, axe murderers with homicidal psychosis who feel a need to kill, shouldn't be supported.
The reasons are addressed simply because they can be. If someone had a perfectly workable reason to not believe (like a religious reason), I'd likely shrug and go, "Alright, fair enough."
Quote
one member on this thread said she was going to leave because she said this site was no longer supportive and "safe."
Um Ellen? That is unrelated to this thread. If you want to know why I'm leaving you may PM me, but making assumptions does no one any good.
Quote
do i have to state again and again that i think IS is at the heart of the matter?
i will say again, IS (whether physical or psychological) is at the heart of the matter of transsexualism. that is equally true whether you are binary-identified or not. we're all in exactly the same boat, but, as individuals, we all have unique treatment regimens.
IS definitions, and IS treatment regimens need to be strongly incorporated into the SOC. this will help all of us fight back against opponents like Bailey and Dreger. Physical IS speaks for itself, but does not get adequate support from trans people. Psychological IS bluntly means that you are not insane because of your gender problems.
That's actually a really smart idea. If we changed up the definitions to fit the IS system or a similar system, instead of treating it as a GID as a disorder (i.e. what Layman like to call crazy) we'd be a lot more successful socially and medically.
Any ideas on what processes we should put into effect to get this going?
Quote from: Rachael on September 07, 2007, 10:19:52 AM
the concept of gender spectra doesnt say male and female cant exist...
Indeed not. Moreover, dividing the whole spectrum into 'male' and 'female' is an entirely reasonable thing to do -- there is no objective criterion for deciding how many parts you must divide the spectrum into. It's just that the more categories you have, the better people will fit into the categories.
In this sense, conceptualising gender is rather like conceptualising colour. Again, there is a spectrum that can be divided into separate colours in a variety of ways -- but this does not happen in a completely random manner. It was shown in the 1960's that there is a pretty universal order for colour terms: if a language has only two, these are the ones corresponding to 'black' and 'white'; if three, 'red' exists as well, and so on. There seem to be physiological reasons why this is so, just like there are good biological reasons why the first two gender terms are 'male' and 'female'.
I'd prefer to consider myself green instead of a very faded shade of black, but that is not the only way to look at things.
Nfr
Quote from: Ellen Marie on September 07, 2007, 09:10:59 AM
Hi Rebis,
the topic? oh yes! sorry.
but if we agree, we're told not to agree, but to state reasons.
well we have stated reasons, and when we do that, we are immediately attacked and called unsupportive. :(
one member on this thread said she was going to leave because she said this site was no longer supportive and "safe."
do i have to state again and again that i think IS is at the heart of the matter?
i will say again, IS (whether physical or psychological) is at the heart of the matter of transsexualism. that is equally true whether you are binary-identified or not. we're all in exactly the same boat, but, as individuals, we all have unique treatment regimens.
IS definitions, and IS treatment regimens need to be strongly incorporated into the SOC. this will help all of us fight back against opponents like Bailey and Dreger. Physical IS speaks for itself, but does not get adequate support from trans people. Psychological IS bluntly means that you are not insane because of your gender problems.
Dear Ellen,
I agree with you. I believe your idea is valid.
Nobody wants to force you to disagree.
What has happened is that the responses seem to come in bursts. I wanted to monitor them better, but I've been tied up with my (crummy) job and I lose my grasp.
From now on: if anyone feels attacked,
please do not respond to the attacker. Please send me or one of the other mods a message saying who it is that you feel is being mean and what post it is. Actually a quote of the offending post will be helpful. Then maybe state why you feel that the message was offensive or an attack.
As I said. Do not reply to the attack in any way other than to point it out. I don't know where I'm going with this, but we'll see.
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary. Gender is psychological and a social construct. If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"? There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes. My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?
You would agree then that ancient tribes(and native americans) supported nonbinary gender within their society. Modern days these roles have been repressed by the influences of "modern society" significantly. Repressed does not mean destroyed. They're still there, ask the native american descendants (I live about 3 minutes from Cherokee). Does that count as something in modern society.
Gender is not a social construct in that ones gender is not determined by society. What gender is defined as ends up being different from person to person because the person interprets what society tells them each gender role means and that interpretation isn't usually the same as the next person. Since its an interpretation, its not inconcievable that unless you're subjected to nonbinary people, ones interpretations can possibly not include anything inbetween.
In conclusion, you don't believe in "other variations" besides the binary as you stated directly in your post. Yes. That is your incentive, you never have to change your opinion if you don't want to. But in order for the variations to not actually exist everyone else would have to agree only two options exist. Something to think about.
Marq and Mia
Remember everyone, respect the opinion
But offer additional insight to be considered
QuoteGender is not a social construct in that ones gender is not determined by society. What gender is defined as ends up being different from person to person because the person interprets what society tells them each gender role means and that interpretation isn't usually the same as the next person.
That doesn't tell me what gender is. If gender is not a social construct, then it would have to be biological. No luck there either.
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary. Gender is psychological and a social construct. If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"? There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes. My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?
If gender is a psychological construct what is to stop a person constructing a social gender for themselves that matches various innate feeling that they have? If somebody is exposed to two distinct things and feels that they're a mixture of characteristics of those two things then they can easily identify as a mixture. Being exposed to other people who feel the same is not necessary. The term "third gender" is a bit problematic, but I won't go into that here, it's not really relevant.
Many kids grew up KNOWING they were trans (even if they dont know the word), without any knowledge of other trans people existing (more so in the past, but it happens even now). They idea that a person could be mentally the opposite to their physical sex was constructed by them due to certain innate feelings. The same is possible for n people with their feelings that their body should be unsexed.
Quote from: Andra on September 07, 2007, 06:46:47 PM
Many kids grew up KNOWING they were trans (even if they dont know the word), without any knowledge of other trans people existing (more so in the past, but it happens even now).
Sorry but that is not correct. Many kids grow up KNOWING THAT THEY ARE BOYS (MEN) OR GIRLS (WOMEN) not "TRANS". Transsexualism is not a gender. They identify as boys or girls because they relate to any of these two genders (sexes). On another note, I could "interpret" a certain treatment as being "African American" that does not make one now does it?
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 06:55:29 PM
Quote from: Andra on September 07, 2007, 06:46:47 PM
Many kids grew up KNOWING they were trans (even if they dont know the word), without any knowledge of other trans people existing (more so in the past, but it happens even now).
Sorry but that is not correct. Many kids grow up KNOWING THAT THEY ARE BOYS (MEN) OR GIRLS (WOMEN) not "TRANS". Transsexualism is not a gender. They identify as boys or girls because they relate to any of these two genders (sexes). On another note, I could be interpret a certain treatment as being "African American" that does not make one now does it?
Indeed trans isn't a gender. But they grew up knowing they were a woman in a mans body or vice versa which is what it is to be trans, so that was part of their identity (note, not gender identity). Being a person with a penis is as much a part of my identity as my gender is, even if I also identify as somebody who has a deep need to not have that thing attached to my body.
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary. Gender is psychological and a social construct. If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"? There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes. My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?
Hi Yvonne,
I want to thank you for an honest response.
I've been thinking that gender may not be a social construction. I think this because it would have been easy and painless for me to be male if that's what I am. I would have had lots of examples and role models and have been guided into being the male I was supposed to be, I think.
Just the thought of saying, "I am a man" makes me want to vomit. The thought of having to live entirely male makes me want to kill myself. However, I do not feel that a female body will help me either. I do not want to live as female. I can't identify with either of the generally accepted sex/genders. I do not feel this way out of rebellion towards the status quo. It is who I am. Nobody could have taught me to feel or to be this way.
I'm not certain 3rd gender is the proper term but I can live with it so I'll stick with it for this discussion. I think the reason I can say I am a third gender even though there is nothing in our modern society to support this is because the 2 main choices, male and female, do not fit or apply to me. We do not have the language to describe ourselves very well due to historical circumstances. We have not been, and are not, recognized as a viable alternative gender to the more easily understood female and male.
As strange as it may sound to you, we androgynes just may have to teach the entire population one person at a time that we exist.
I hope this came out okay. I'm kind of tired and afraid of rambling.
I'd like to say that several people earlier in this thread did do a good job of expressing the androgyne condition.
Posted on: September 07, 2007, 07:06:15 PM
Wow. My last post stinks compared to the ones that come before it. (it could be this post if nobody posts before I do)
I think some kids grow up knowing they are not either gender too. Of course, they have no way of communicating this because there are no examples for them to point to or to relate to.
When we peak of gender I think it's important to note what manifestation of gender we're talking about. I've always felt that while gender roles and expectations are socially constructed, that gender identity is innate and involuntary.
We keep running into the problems of trying to use inadequate language to discuss things we don't really have words for so it behooves us to do our best to be as accurate and descriptive as possible when using the words we do have.
meine zwei pfennig,
Emelye
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary. Gender is psychological and a social construct. If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"? There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes. My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?
So if you realize that it existed in ancient life, why don't you think it exists today? Modern society has squashed many behaviors, beliefs, etc of ancient tribes because we believe them to be
uncivilized. But it doesn't mean that people today don't still believe that way.
:icon_confused: its early I can't do too much brain acrobatics before coffee ;)
The idea of someone saying an identity of someone else is not a valid one simply because it is not something they are familiar with is really kind of silly. Have you ever seen an identity? Thought not. Identity is a very personal thing, the very idea of someone sitting back and saying "I do not believe in your identity because it is not mine" makes no sense.
Sure I ID as a girl. I tried out ID'ing as a guy for a while when I was a lot younger considering the whole "guy body" thing I was dealing with, it was just wrong for me, made no sense, made me feel uncomfortable to the point of feeling nauseous and disgusting. So I tried girl, and girl worked. If that hadn't either, I would have had to find somewhere else to go. Third gender, fourth gender, all genders, no gender, invented my own gender, who cares? You find the identity that fits you, and you run with it. Every identity is valid, if you truly identify with it. You can no more tell me what someone elses identity truly is than you can tell me what I'm thinking right now. Which is probably for the best :-\.
Megan
rebis, plato said that once we were both genders and we then split into male and female. thereafter we spend eternity looking for our soul mate (yes, plato originated the idea of soul mate).
likewise in atlantis, there were two groups of people, The followers of the law of one and the followers of belial. they too believed that we were at one time both male and female but when we became human, not spirits, we divided into male and female. amazing, isn't it? i've thinking about this topic a lot. i don't know why, but i'm not through with my answer yet. give me a few more days, k?
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary.
All right. Thank you for explaining your views; this is realy getting interesting. Like I wrote, it's entirely reasonable to divide the gender variation into just two, male and female; but since I don't view it like that, it's a bit hard to understand.
So, in an attempt to get a better understanding of your view, how would you describe the gender of someone who was raised as a male, was distressed by that classification right from the start, but decided half-way into transition that being female was not any better? Is this person a man or a woman? What would be the criteria for your choice?
Quote
If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"?
How about 'because they do not feel comfortable in either of the binary roles'? Gender is not just social, it has a strong psychological component as well, and a biological basis which can be more or less relevant in different contexts.
Quote
There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes.
Does this mean that if we lived in one of the past societies which had a three-gender system, you would accept the existence of an intermediate gender?
Nfr
I am not going to make any points in this discussion or search for reason for others beliefs, even though it may contradict myself existing, or denote that I am wrong about my personal understanding.
Rather just mention that I am a bit apathetic concerning the answers. I guess I am not out to change other's minds today.
Rather I respect your own choices of personal beliefs and hope its what works best for you. And desire to see everyone here reach a place of comfort, peace, fun, and truth in life.
To revise a quote from the great philosopher Britney Spears.
"I'm not a boy, not quite a woman."
Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 07:40:36 AM
rebis, plato said that once we were both genders and we then split into male and female. thereafter we spend eternity looking for our soul mate (yes, plato originated the idea of soul mate).
likewise in atlantis, there were two groups of people, The followers of the law of one and the followers of belial. they too believed that we were at one time both male and female but when we became human, not spirits, we divided into male and female. amazing, isn't it? i've thinking about this topic a lot. i don't know why, but i'm not through with my answer yet. give me a few more days, k?
Okay :)
I would hate to live under water.
Posted on: September 08, 2007, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 08, 2007, 09:19:15 AM
I am not going to make any points in this discussion or search for reason for others beliefs, even though it may contradict myself existing, or denote that I am wrong about my personal understanding.
Rather just mention that I am a bit apathetic concerning the answers. I guess I am not out to change other's minds today.
Rather I respect your own choices of personal beliefs and hope its what works best for you. And desire to see everyone here reach a place of comfort, peace, fun, and truth in life.
To revise a quote from the great philosopher Britney Spears.
"I'm not a boy, not quite a woman."
I don't expect to change minds and I am okay with people not believing in me. I'm just struggling to fill in the blanks and to get the most accurate picture possible.
"I'm not a singer, not a dancer." - is what Britney should (not)sing
I don;t know if Androgyne is a gender but I think its more of a umbrella term for somebody who just doesn't indentify as male or female or maybe for somebody who identifies between the 2 genders. I do identify as an androyne because sometimes I feel like one of the guys(I like sports, cars) and sometimes I don;t and as you get to know me you will learn that I communicate as a female would. I'm just very hard to get to know because I;m not totally one of the guys. What you see on the outside is partly the person(but not totally) that is on the inside. If I had to describe myself externally of how its like to present myself everyday it would be like this half of my body would and half of my body would be female: thats what its like too live as me everyday.
As far as scenice and androgny goes I did read once that some people are born with the androgony insensivity syndrome gene. I forgot how the androgony sensitivity gene forms but its formed before a person who has this gene is born.
That's androgen insensitivity, dear. Nothing to do with androgyny.
Quote from: Tay on September 04, 2007, 01:46:28 AM
A lot of people, in a recent poll on androgyne identity and whether or not it was accepted, responded that they did not see androgyne as a valid gender identity. Some said it was a form of gender expression. Some said other things.
No one really elaborated on why they believed it was invalid.
I come before you today with a plea.
I can take the fact that you don't believe in my identity, but please tell me why. It really bothers me that no one has said why they think this way.
Take pity on a person, would you? At least give me some reasons. I don't care what they are. Just please tell me.
I can't say why someone would not give validity to androgyne unless they deny the validity of us all. After all, if a person can be born with physical characteristics of both sexes why not both genders? Or neither gender? We're all experiencing variations of the same theme.
My 2ยข
Karen Lyn
"I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary. Gender is psychological and a social construct. If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"? There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes. My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?"
YOU ARE SOCIETY. You acknowledging this "Third Gender" really just makes it exist. We only separate ourselves from, "Society" because we disagree with the current trends. Pretty soon our ideas which were born in caffeinated deep thought on the internets will perhaps be mainstream. Ish....Mainsteamish.
Theres alot of interesting thought about us evolving more, and us being evolutions of evolution being ours or us BEING evolution that I was going to say, but it gets pretty confusing I must say.
Quote from: deviousxen on September 09, 2007, 03:26:52 AM
Theres alot of interesting thought about us evolving more, and us being evolutions of evolution being ours or us BEING evolution that I was going to say, but it gets pretty confusing I must say.
Just that sentence is pretty confusing! I expect a full rewrite and resubmission by the end of monday. :laugh:
I really like your other more easily understandable thoughts, though. :)
Don't worry. It confuses the crap outta me. I seem to understand it though...
I think many of the arguments going round stem from us having different understandings of what gender means.
For me my gender identity is simply what I feel I am inside. So for me a valid identity is simply any identity someone feels they are. For lack of a better word I call myself androgyne. Maybe androgyne does not describe a valid identity in itself because it includes a range of identities, but you have to say my internal identity is as valid as anyone else's wouldn't you?
I've never been a boy, no more than a lot of you MtFs out there. But I've never been a girl either. For you transsexuals out there, think of how you felt about your birth sex as it applied to you, now apply this feeling to your target sex at the same time and you will possibly get how I feel. Now what would that make me if androgyne is not a valid gender identity? Does this mean that I am genderless? Maybe so, but then I don't feel genderless. I feel that I am a definite something.
I think some of you are saying that to have a valid identity there needs to be a 'gendered' place for you in society. In some ways this might be a good way of looking at it. I can see myself supporting this idea because I definitely feel there is no place for me as an androgyne, a bit like I am lost in the gender sea around me. I can accept that my gender is not currently validated by society. Maybe my androgyne identity within the context of my society just fills the gap in the place of gender. But if I was living in another culture with a gendered place then I would then have a valid gender identity in the eyes of society..
My question to everyone is what makes a gender identity valid in your eyes?
You just summed up many things eloquently. That scenario is interesting that you brought up too.
I guess its valid if someone says that that is the way they feel. Unless we argue about semantics, which could ramble for hours.
I'm glad to see this topic got back on track because we haven't had any insults or attacks for a while.(Not that thats a reason for one). We're having additional people offer their insight into the debate and perhaps we shall continue moving foward and all grow from this experience. Nice job everyone.
M&M
"I also like Plutonium, its just fun to say"
"How's your plutonium today?"
"Good thank you"
Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?
Gender is not a social construct, per se. if it were, then it would be like me saying, "Yvonne, your personality is a social construct."
then you would say, "No it's not."
then i would say, "Then neither is your gender, because your gender is part of your personality."
you went on to add that if gender were not a social construct, then it would have to be biological "no luck there either." actually, gender
is biological, in exactly the same degree that the mind is biological. the mind is an aspect of the brain, the personality is an aspect of the mind, and gender is an aspect of the personality.
to say that you're having an identity crisis based on gender can definitely be made worse by cultural opinions about how society thinks you should present yourself, but still, you know the problem is in fact personal, and has to be addressed by you personally, regardless of what other people think.
i also find it hard to understand that a person could have an identity crisis based on gender and desire to be neither male nor female. but my opinions do not establish that person's personality, and if i tell a person that their gender identity crisis is not valid unless they can "pick a gender," i'm certainly not going to be helping them -- any more than my mom has been helping me by telling me i'm "mentally ill" for being transsexual.
gotta put dis quote here to.
"I would like to be known as a person who is concerned about freedom and equality and justice and prosperity for all people". Rosa Parks
a woman with agood heart. :) :) :)
Quote from: Ell on September 14, 2007, 01:28:21 AMGender is not a social construct, per se. if it were, then it would be like me saying, "Yvonne, your personality is a social construct."
then you would say, "No it's not."
then i would say, "Then neither is your gender, because your gender is part of your personality."
you went on to add that if gender were not a social construct, then it would have to be biological "no luck there either." actually, gender is biological, in exactly the same degree that the mind is biological. the mind is an aspect of the brain, the personality is an aspect of the mind, and gender is an aspect of the personality.
I agree. This was well stated.
I cannot know what it feels like to identify with neither male nor female, I doubt whether I can even imagine what it would feel like. But just because it's outside my personal little experience is no reason to dismiss the possibility of it being just as real for others as my crossed-wire gender is for me. I keep hearing cisgender people saying they can't know what it feels like to be trans like me. Well, that holds up a mirror for me to understand
all the better what it's like to have an inner gender feeling that others don't understand, reminding me to be accepting of what androgynes say about themselves.
Since I'm bisexual, I can relate, because my sexuality is often disrespected by both gay and straight who can only imagine having one-directional sexuality. Another analogy is of course intersex as has been mentioned a lot already. If sexuality and sexual genotype/phenotype can have recognized in-between settings, why not gender? Actually, on this basis I would find it bizarre and inconsistent to reject androgyny out of hand.
Posted on: September 15, 2007, 05:22:10 AM
Quote from: Chris on September 14, 2007, 02:13:01 AM
gotta put dis quote here to.
"I would like to be known as a person who is concerned about freedom and equality and justice and prosperity for all people". Rosa Parks
a woman with agood heart. :) :) :)
I love you, brother, you have a beautiful way of expressing deep truths. Every time I look at you I see a man with a good heart.
the intersex point is interesting, if sex can muddle, why not gender? well its entirely possible, BUT when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant, the patients he saw were wishing to stay their external gender, or fix their body to match their internal and mental gender but that is just this specialist.
on the topic of gender being a social construct. i dispute this with Yvonne. Gender has existed across time and societies. EVERY society has males and females. now this can be wrong, and has been seen as wrong historically, with Roman and Greek transitions through to modern times. what has changed, and what is constructed, is _gender roles_. These have changed and are fluid to an extent. what men and women must do, wear, behave like, is the construct. and its fairly engraned in 21st century western society. tribes the pacific islands have been known to have the men look after the children gossiping and being the sex objects, while the women fought, protected the camp, and essentially gang raped males. odd, but another society. I think what is important here, if you suggest gender itself is a social construct. i say no, gender is intrinsically linked to sex, and if it wasnt so linked, there wouldnt be such a massive need for transexual people to change their sex to match thier gender. I think we all need to get back to the crux of this argument, because were severely off topic.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
the intersex point is interesting, if sex can muddle, why not gender? well its entirely possible, BUT when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant,
Then again, that may or may not indicate something. The patients who discuss their gender identity with this endocrinologist are not necessarily an unbiased sample, there may or may not be a correlation between the intersexual and intergender conditions, and so on. I don't know -- and I have seen no evidence that anyone else knows either, which is really a pity.
Quote
i say no, gender is intrinsically linked to sex, and if it wasnt so linked, there wouldnt be such a massive need for transexual people to change their sex to match thier gender.
Yes, definitely -- but also not really. Gender is undoubtedly linked to sex, but that link is not
all there is to gender: it is also, and to a large extent, a social construct. As a result, gender identity is tied to both sex and gender roles, and just how much these aspects are emphasised varies very much. This difference in emphasis can be seen even in people who conform to the binary gender system. For the prototypical transsexual, gender idenitity has a strong link to sex. For others, the emphasis is very much on the side of gender role; these people are commonly labelled transgendered.
This interplay of physical and cultural aspects means that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities, and it is no longer self-evident that there are just two gender identities to choose from. It is possible to divide the gender landscape into two, three, or even more sections. If you are interested, there's a current thread on this issue (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,19574.0.html) on the androgyne forum.
I, personally, find a five-gender system (consisting of male, female, bigender, ambigender and null-gender) pretty useful, given the mix of people who frequent these forums. Still, I can describe my own identity using a system with less genders as well -- it's just that in a two-gender system I'll have to consider myself a rather untypical female, while in a five-gender system I'm much closer to the centre of the ambigender range.
Nfr
but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female? I understand that people feel identities require thier own banner to wave. but for example, couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities? i mean, feminine men, masculine females, 'aytypical' members of both genders, do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet? Lets face it, the body can be either male or female to an extent. and by this, why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither? dont take my comments as offensive, im simply raising some questions ive seen through this discussion and would like to find how people relate to this.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 09:50:22 AM
but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female?
That's a very good question, and I spent quite a bit of time over the summer thinking about it. The answer I ended up with was that I'm far enough from both the prototypical male and female that the best choice for me is to admit that a more fine-grained conceptualisation of gender works much better than the traditional binary system. Despite this, I do realise that identity-wise I'm slightly closer to the female end of the spectrum than the male, so my identity is better described as female in binary terms.
Quote
couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities?
If necessary, yes. However, it's rather cumbersome to state (to continue using me as an example) that I'm a female with a significant number of male personality traits, who prefers a gender-neutral role, and can most of the time cope pretty well in the male body I was born in. Male-bodied ambigender is much easier.
Quote
do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet?
I have no desire to stand out. The thing is that in my case the binary system was misleading. When I first came here, I thought of myself in terms of a MtF transsexual, mainly because my body image issues point to that direction. In the end that didn't work out: I am quite confident that I wouldn't be any better off after transitioning than I am now.
So yes, the categories are too broad. It's been hard to make up my mind on whether I'm a masculine woman or a feminine man, and since there are a number of people in similar circumstances, the obvious conclusion is that there's something wrong with the gender system.
Quote
why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither?
Because gender identity is linked not just to physical sex but also to social gender roles?
Nfr
Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 09:50:22 AM
but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female? I understand that people feel identities require thier own banner to wave. but for example, couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities? i mean, feminine men, masculine females, 'aytypical' members of both genders, do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet? Lets face it, the body can be either male or female to an extent. and by this, why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither? dont take my comments as offensive, im simply raising some questions ive seen through this discussion and would like to find how people relate to this.
R :police:
Hi Racheal. Good questions. I can only answer these as they relate to myself.
The problem with your arguments for me is that I don't identify with being male or female. Therefore the binary system does not accommodate me. It would be so easy and simple if I did fit, but I don't. Just as you can't choose to be transgendered I did not choose to be not male and not female at the same time. I guess someone could say I am a feminine male or a masculine female (which would it be anyway?), yet to me this is utterly offensive and just feels totally wrong.
I don't want to be different, but being called male or female is as offensive to me as it would be for a woman constantly being mistaken for a man or a man constantly being mistaken for a woman. I imagine this is how many transsexuals probably feel all the time until they change their body to match their identity. The simple truth is I am not a male and I am not a female. Trying to push me into one of those groups is as abhorrent as cutting off a non-transgendered boys penis at birth and raising him as a girl.
Body change for me is in the direction of female but I have no desire to completely change my body to female. If I did that I would still be in the same boat as I am now. It would feel as wrong as my birth sex. I have not heard of other gender variants doing a total change except when they have mistakenly bought into the gender binary and feel they have to be one or the other, often with tragic results. This happens because the pressure is enormous to conform to the binary system. You're feeling it now in your struggle to try and rationalise things in terms of male and female even though you have people telling you straight out that they are not male or female. It is a bit of a mind bender eh? ;)
i wonder how many of those who have had regrets post surgery mistakenly felt they had to be either or? ill admit, to me, the world is that black and white, in my eyes, im a female, heck, im a fair image of a tomboy, i play a combat sport, listen to rock, wear baggy jeans and hoodies a lot of the time. but im female, simple as that, ill accept anyones personal position on gender as long as they accept mine. just dont expect me to agree or feel the same way. any system that accomodates male and female, as well as others is ok, but those who choose to suggest that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system are a tad delusional. there are billions of happy men, and women, and happy inbetweens and neithers. live and let live i say. i do admit that the concept of gender facinates me, ive had an interesting brush with the subject most of my peers havent and i like to investigate it a bit out of personal curiosity. to me, male personality traits, in a female, doesnt make her less of a woman, and female in male doesnt make them less of a man, but well rounded indeviduals in a modern society. I do not fully understand the feelings of intergender and nulgender people, i accept them, but dont undestand, the way they cannot understand my happyness and contented view of 'female'. as i said, this topic needs to learn the phrase 'live and let live' there is prejudice within a community of peoples more educated in gender, and i feel its sad that people on both sides of the line, both non binary belivers, and binary belivers. ALL of us need to re evaluate our response to this subject, accept the views of others , and compromise to an extent.
R :police:
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.
Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.
Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.
Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.
I identify with this statement very much. I thought the binary people were play acting and I really couldn't follow or copy it.
Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 03:00:47 PM
Hi Racheal. Good questions. I can only answer these as they relate to myself.
The problem with your arguments for me is that I don't identify with being male or female. Therefore the binary system does not accommodate me. It would be so easy and simple if I did fit, but I don't. Just as you can't choose to be transgendered I did not choose to be not male and not female at the same time. I guess someone could say I am a feminine male or a masculine female (which would it be anyway?), yet to me this is utterly offensive and just feels totally wrong.
I don't want to be different, but being called male or female is as offensive to me as it would be for a woman constantly being mistaken for a man or a man constantly being mistaken for a woman. I imagine this is how many transsexuals probably feel all the time until they change their body to match their identity. The simple truth is I am not a male and I am not a female. Trying to push me into one of those groups is as abhorrent as cutting off a non-transgendered boys penis at birth and raising him as a girl.
Body change for me is in the direction of female but I have no desire to completely change my body to female. If I did that I would still be in the same boat as I am now. It would feel as wrong as my birth sex. I have not heard of other gender variants doing a total change except when they have mistakenly bought into the gender binary and feel they have to be one or the other, often with tragic results. This happens because the pressure is enormous to conform to the binary system. You're feeling it now in your struggle to try and rationalise things in terms of male and female even though you have people telling you straight out that they are not male or female. It is a bit of a mind bender eh? ;)
You are a very interesting person and articulate, and i enjoy hearing what you have to say.
-ell
nicksister, rebis, exactly, its that polar, and i dont think we can truely make the other groups understand US, be that males or females, or the many other variants of gender (im not being derogatory, there are too many to list). Personally im female, i really dont think about my gender much, other than i am what i am. granted ive had to change my body, but my gender and personality are just me, and i honestly care about my gender as much as my peers, its just something that is. i cant describe it, i know being female sucks in this world, comparatively, but its just my lot in life, and ill do my best to overcome things. I find it amuseing that people on here assume everyone intimately understands the concepts behind gender, and meanings, we dont, were normal people with our own views. im a 20 year old college girl, what the HELL do i know about gender? it doesnt help that im a geography student either! Where this topic is going wrong, is trying to make people understand concepts that are alien to THEM. this doesnt make these concepts and ideas wrong, just different. and i dont think there is a person on these forums, or in the world who can bridge the gap and understand gender the way we understand our own. Life is too short to argue with eachother about who is more right... its like two children in a sandpit, throwing sand at one another to deflect the sand of the other, it will contine as long as there is sand. as long as gender exists, it will be debated and disputed and systems critisized and aplauded. but when we all start bickering like children, que custodes custodies? we should know better.
R :police:
Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.
Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.
Dang, NS!!!
you just might be a genius. *
kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*
you're giving me goose bumps here.
-ell
Quote from: Rebis on September 30, 2007, 11:21:08 PM
Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.
Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.
I identify with this statement very much. I thought the binary people were play acting and I really couldn't follow or copy it.
I can relate. Throughout my whole life I haven't understood gender-related distinctions. I've come to the conclusion that it's because they don't exist in me.
Rachael, I agree with you that, say, liking art and cooking doesn't make a man less of a man, and that liking martial arts and guns doesn't make a woman less of a woman. But to quote Kate Bornstein: "What is a man? What is a woman? Why do we have to be one or the other?"
Quote from: Ell on October 01, 2007, 09:04:26 PM
Dang, NS!!! you just might be a genius.
*kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*
you're giving me goose bumps here.
-ell
Thank you 'the' ell! You have made my day.
I'm just glad we are starting to find things everyone can understand and relate to.
Quote from: NickSister on October 02, 2007, 02:22:01 AM
Quote from: Ell on October 01, 2007, 09:04:26 PM
Dang, NS!!! you just might be a genius.
*kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*
you're giving me goose bumps here.
-ell
Thank you 'the' ell! You have made my day.
I'm just glad we are starting to find things everyone can understand and relate to.
you're welcome, my dear. this thread, and your remarks here, are incredible. i am proud to know you. one would hope that this thread will be printed and sent to all of the researchers who are currently working on the SOC, to all gender researchers at the university level, and to gender therapists everywhere. it may not be what they want to hear, but it's definitely something that they
need to hear.
Great work.
-ell
I think we have several really excellent threads on this site that we should send to the scientists, doctors, and researchers.
We also have the people to provide info to fill in the gaps.
hi . i am noeleena . well this is a can of worms . & i am in as well its nice you are with me at least i do not need to fool any one. i am a transfemale at 60 jos & i walk this trip to geather .its neat . i have friends like you they are neat... some do not understand me so we are on the same boat . i would love to meet you i am in new zealand .o well may be one day. what i am getting at is we have the net. i am glad you are here thats neat ..yes its hard when you are not like other people. i know i am not to live this way is hard i know how you feel .....i am both male &female. nuts ... .in side i am female ....i can not offer you any thing just my love goes out to you .. & i see alot. i hope i can help i work with trans people i love it . o well thats me ...... noeleena
Hi Noeleena,
If you are interested, a great group to be a part of is Agender NZ :
http://www.agender.org.nz/
They have lots of resources and local group meetings.
Nick
Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant, the patients he saw were wishing to stay their external gender, or fix their body to match their internal and mental gender
The only IS person I have ever met (or at least, the only IS person I've ever met who told me e was IS) is an androgyne, with breasts and male genitalia, and a perfectly androgynous appearance, very beautiful. E is delighted with this and annoys the uninitiated by insisting that they use gender-neutral pronouns. I have no idea how e could fail to get tired of constantly correcting waiters and explaining about androgyny and intersex conditions to everybody and their dog, but e seemed delighted to do that, too.
intersex doesnt equal medical androgyne. im 46xx and intersex, that makes me as female as i look,
maybe you confuse intergender and intersex?
i have yet to meet an IS androgyne, only happy natal males and females who are IS, and trans people who are is and going from one to the other,.
R :police:
Quote from: Rebis on October 02, 2007, 12:41:01 PM
I think we have several really excellent threads on this site that we should send to the scientists, doctors, and researchers.
We also have the people to provide info to fill in the gaps.
that is cool, R! you think we could do that? what would the next step be?
-ell
Quote from: Ell on October 02, 2007, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: Rebis on October 02, 2007, 12:41:01 PM
I think we have several really excellent threads on this site that we should send to the scientists, doctors, and researchers.
We also have the people to provide info to fill in the gaps.
that is cool, R! you think we could do that? what would the next step be?
-ell
I don't know. I should investigate. I have 2 psychiatrists and a gender therapist that I can talk to. Maybe they know some little men in tweed jackets who stand around all day cutting up frogs. [/woody Allen]
Quote from: Rachael on October 02, 2007, 09:19:14 PM
intersex doesnt equal medical androgyne. im 46xx and intersex, that makes me as female as i look,
maybe you confuse intergender and intersex?
i have yet to meet an IS androgyne, only happy natal males and females who are IS, and trans people who are is and going from one to the other,.
R :police:
Naw, I am not confused.
I am talking about a person who was born with male primary sex characteristics (genitalia) and developed female secondary sex characteristics (breasts, fat distribution, hair patterns) at puberty. This person has an intersex condition. That is eir body.
E is also an androgyne. E does not feel male nor female and in fact finds eir IS body to be exactly the body that feels right to eir. That is eir gender.
I'm not saying that this happens to every IS person. Just that it happens.
you do realise 'eir' isnt a word or even engrish?
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 04, 2007, 02:14:56 AM
you do realise 'eir' isnt a word or even engrish?
R :police:
'Eir' is the adjectival form of the second-person possessive pronoun in the gender-neutral pronoun set invented by mathematician Michael Spivak. It is slightly older and follows more regular gramatical rules than the sie/zie/hir/etc one I see going about these days. It also just happens to be the pronoun set that the person I am writing about prefers. Or preferred at the time that I knew em.
'Eir' is equivalent to 'her' or 'his.' Actually, I am mistakenly using 'eir' when I should be using 'em' in one place in the previous post. It ought to say 'the body that feels right to em.'
This is not really relevant, and what are you really on about?
Actually, according to Spivak emself, e didn't invent it, just wrote about it as a cool idea in The Joy of TeX. Since that was a relatively high-impact book in certain circles (and fun to read, like most of the early TeX manuals and tutorials), the pronoun got a great deal of publicity, and as an unintended side effect got credited to em.
But yes, this is getting off-topic. If anyone is still interested, read the Wikipedia entry on 'Spivak pronoun'.
Nfr
I think Spivak is as real spiffy name....
Someone start a pronoun topic - I have a feeling it will take off.
Hi all, I guess I can't help much on the grammar I think my grammar book was left in my bag under a tree when I was walking home from school 52 years ago. :o)
Is the proposition being put forward here about coming up with a label for androgen which stands for the desire of not wanting to be classified as either gender *neutral* I believe, like this word 'Eir' which is being designated to define this state being, neutrality, yes? no?
But then where do I fit in this scheme of the genders? Like I did not identify as either gender let alone feeling a need to have sex with a woman or a male. In my teens I did look like a girl and often got called Miss during the years leading to the final decision for the surgery. I looked pretty much androgynous through many of those years, until just the last few years where I began developing male features. "Yuck!!!" I rather quickly made up my mind I didn't want to continue the rout of my previous self..
At least now I love who I am, and I am woman.
Cindy
hmm, interesting, and hir wasnt good enough ? or is things like hir, zie, and other ones i forget for differnet androgyne groups?
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 05, 2007, 05:04:20 AM
hmm, interesting, and hir wasnt good enough ? or is things like hir, zie, and other ones i forget for differnet androgyne groups?
R :police:
Rachael,
There is no formalized or approved or official set of gender variant pronouns. People are just using what they picked up in different places and what they find preferable or comfortable for theirselves.
Anyway, this thread was meant as a venue for people to discuss their understanding or [dis]belief in the androgyne condition.
I believe that the thread has had it's highs and it's lows but also that there may be more to wring out of the topic before it spins off into space.
If it keeps going sideways, I may lock it out of respect for what Tay was trying to accomplish.
Rebis
Hi Rebis
Sorry I didn't mean to upset any apple carts here but, as naive as this may sound I have never heard of all these gender variant pronouns before until I ran into this thread and another one that was locked out a couple of days ago. I might be 62 years of age but I am also the new kid on the block when it comes to this gender variant labeling business. Now I just left another group not long ago, nothing to do with transgender, but I left for similar reasons, "labels" So I can see and understand where such labels could cause some confusion and problems for some. As far as I'm concerned, I consider myself a lesbian on these groups if I feel there is a need to classify myself. and just plain female on any other groups I attend out there.
Why can't androgen be recognized in it's own classification and be done with it? I been there for a time. One doesn't need to understand this concept to just let those who are share of themselves with others in there own space. And for anyone who doesn't like it then go to any other number of threads in this message board.
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on October 05, 2007, 05:04:20 AM
hmm, interesting, and hir wasnt good enough ? or is things like hir, zie, and other ones i forget for differnet androgyne groups?
R :police:
Quote from: Doc on October 04, 2007, 12:09:06 PM
. It is slightly older and follows more regular gramatical rules than the sie/zie/hir/etc one I see going about these days.
Note use of word 'older.' Appearantly, it's eir that wasn't good enough, and I am not sure why.
So far as I know, none of these pronoun-sets have anything in particular to do with particular androgyne groups of any sort. They're simply proposed gender-neutral pronouns intended to indicate anybody, male, female or genderless, but without the implied insult of 'it' and without the 'is it one person or many?' confusion of using 'they.' Why inventors of gender-neutral pronoun sets habitually ignore the perfectly good ancient proto-English 'ou' is beyond me.
maybe you SHOULD formalise a set of pronouns, so people take you seriously as an established identity, fannying aroundwith prounouns only makes you look less certain yourselves... just a suggestion.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 07, 2007, 02:44:12 AM
maybe you SHOULD formalise a set of pronouns, so people take you seriously as an established identity, fannying aroundwith prounouns only makes you look less certain yourselves... just a suggestion.
R :police:
People have tried to formalize a set of pronouns many times, but it never works because other people disagree and don't use them, and so they never get adopted. Maybe we just need to wait until people get used to using "they" in the singular sense again (pedantic grammarians be damned.)
And if people don't take me seriously, it's their problem, not mine.
maybe this is why debates like this start... form a unified front, make a coherant, visible alternative to gender as it stands currently. because if you dont get some form of fixed ideas together, the constant shifting sands version doesnt quite hold any water... I WANT to see this accepted as much as anyone, infact i WANT a coherant, understandable answer, society understands male and female, make androgyne as understandable, and people will stop debating its existance. currently, whispers and comments and rumours of a city, dont make a city...
R :police:
Hello Rachael,
Language is messy. It defies formalization. most of the words we use regularly have been bent beaten and broken through many generations until they became accepted and regularly used. I'm talking about words in general.
Most words and meanings go through a very rigorous trial before coming into general use. At some point, a set of pronouns will "magically" become accepted and used more to the point of "triumphing" over less used or less malleable alternatives. It will be some time, however, and there really is no controlling it.
At one time, our people were accepted and respected. Like Doc said, there were words for us then. It would be nice to dig up the old lingo and squeeze some more juice out of it, but there's no way to make it happen in an official way.
It is a difficult thing to recover culture and traditions that have been destroyed, buried, hidden, and ridicule by a particularly mean majority. Binaries who accept us, or who would accept us if they knew of us, have no more access to our past than we do at this time.
Just because we struggle with our own identity there is no reason for us to not be taken seriously.
Rebis from the Rubicon
Quote from: Rachael on October 09, 2007, 02:43:33 AM
maybe this is why debates like this start... form a unified front, make a coherant, visible alternative to gender as it stands currently. because if you dont get some form of fixed ideas together, the constant shifting sands version doesnt quite hold any water... I WANT to see this accepted as much as anyone, infact i WANT a coherant, understandable answer, society understands male and female, make androgyne as understandable, and people will stop debating its existance. currently, whispers and comments and rumours of a city, dont make a city...
R :police:
This is relatively impossible, as "Androgyne" encompasses so many different feelings and identities. Anyone who feels that they don't somehow fit into the Gender Binary gets shoved under 'androgyne' this includes androgynes, bigender, intergender, nullgender etc etc etc.. All of these identities have a unique self view. How exactly would them forming together to make one set of pronouns be any different then shoving them into another box to which they don't fit? Why does every androgyne have to be exactly the same for you to accept it?
Quote from: Rebis on October 09, 2007, 08:29:07 AM
Hello Rachael,
Language is messy. It defies formalization. most of the words we use regularly have been bent beaten and broken through many generations until they became accepted and regularly used. I'm talking about words in general.
atleast language accepts one form of a word at one point in time before it evolves, and we havent stopped changing language, even now.
Quote from: Rachael on October 09, 2007, 02:43:33 AM
form a unified front, make a coherant, visible alternative to gender as it stands currently. because if you dont get some form of fixed ideas together, the constant shifting sands version doesnt quite hold any water...
Eh, making androgyne identity a 'fixed idea' will be making it a third gender form that doesn't fit everybody. You can include both bi-gendered and neutrois people in the current unfixed idea of an androgyne, but in a fixed one, naw. And what's fixed about the ideas of manhood and womanhood?
Anyway, I think this is silly. It would certainly be nice if we had, in English, a set of gender-neutral pronouns in common use, well known to everybody and not strange-sounding on anyone's ears or awkward on anyone's tongue. But to say that androgynes need that to be taken seriously is an excuse not to take them seriously.
Shall we refuse to take women seriously until they all decide if they are women, ladies, girls, grrrls, wimmen, womyn, gals, dames, chicks, lasses or what, and all share the same preferences as to which of these terms suit them and which are annoying and which are offensive?
Quote from: Doc on October 09, 2007, 08:08:51 PM
Shall we refuse to take women seriously until they all decide if they are women, ladies, girls, grrrls, wimmen, womyn, gals, dames, chicks, lasses or what, and all share the same preferences as to which of these terms suit them and which are annoying and which are offensive?
You forgot "broads". That one is my favorite (used only where appropriate, of course)