This topic is wide open for anyone on the trans spectrum & may help in my volunteer LGBT work so any answers are welcome
Whilst giving a talk at a hostel the other week I was asked how I knew I was trans, always a very difficult question to answer. One part of the answer I gave was to explain that i've often had what I called Phantom Boob Syndrome, I explained that when relaxed I would frequently feel that I had breasts, I would swear blind that I could feel not just the weight but the difference in the sensation of clothes against this area even though there was no physical way I could know if this sensation was accurate, now that i'm developing I know the feeling was accurate.
Then whilst commenting on another topic I mentioned this & a MTF made a comment about Phantom Boner Syndrome.
I am wondering how many others within the trans community have experienced this feeling of phantom bits?
Is it common or rare & if you are post op does the real sensation match up to your memories?
One of the reasons that this fascinates me is that I saw a you tube video a while ago with a man explaining that phantom limb syndrome is something that trans people do not experience after having corrective surgery to remove the parts they are uncomfortable with, whilst those who've been forced to have parts removed either due to medical reasons or accidents often report phantom limb syndrome.
No, never had phantom bits. I know I used to try to poke my finger at the spot where my VJ would be if I had one. It's not that I expected it to be there, but I was always a bit disappointed.
I have had phantom syndrome. now that i:'m on Spiro, it makes it more obvious since I can barely feel that flesh down there
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The sensations seem to come and go.
I could swear I have had breast and VJ at different points. Maybe it's just the power of suggestion but I think some of this may lead back to some of the other topics about dreams.
Joanna
OK, this thread is seriously starting to freak me out.
As I said above, I never had the feeling of having breasts and a VJ, just that I really wanted one.
I'm about a year post-op now, and I have the feeling pretty much all the time that I really do still have man parts, all of them. I'm always surprised when I feel down there and they're not actually there - they're part of my new assembly.
Now I'm reading about all the real true MtFs who often thought they really did have lady parts.
What if I'm not really meant to have girl parts?
Sorry Suzi, I didn't mean to freak anyone out.
The very last thing I want to do is start a more trans than thou debate or make anyone doubt themselves
Everything we feel is subjective, there's no right or wrong answer or feeling. There's no true research that i've found about this yet & as any research would depend on peoples interpretation then such research could be easily misled.
Who's to say that the feeling i'm talking about is true?
Maybe the sensation I remember is different to the true sensation I feel now & my mind is incorrect in saying that the phantom feeling I remember is really the same as what I feel now as memory is not infallible. . . .
That was possibly the most confused bit of writing i've ever committed to this site, erk!!
I have had a phantom vjj often, usually during arousal. Sometimes when I'm dressed and just doing routine stuff I have a feeling like a censor blotted out my crotch area. (I'm pre-op). Like there's a big black dot covering from the belt buckle down to mid-thigh.
But if someone came up to me and denied that I have these sensations, it would not diminish me or my experiences in the least. I feel what I feel, and that is all one can say. Whether or not I had a phantom vjj or a cis-male-normal crotch feeling does not affect my being MtF.
We're all different.
In the back of my mind, I can feel that I do carry a slight of this phantom boob syndrome. Like the presence is there, though not really the weight. I have tiny phantom boobs.
Explains why in my high school days that I despised the changing rooms, and was super insecure about anyone seeing me. Open showers, open everything with no bathroom stalls section meant everyone is put on blast in front of everyone else.
On the flip side of phantom limbs, since I've been tucking for the past month, I get the feeling in the sense that I was never meant to have the boy parts, like the only way I still know it's down there is if I get the curiosity to feel down there, like just giving a slight poke.
I often felt a sense of having a shadow self but, as an adult, always felt I had breasts and during straight coitus would feel I was the one being penetrated. As my bottom bits shrivel and my curves grow it becomes easier to live simply as my self. I sort of feel like that old Alfred Hitchcock TV series intro when he walks into his own shadow and becomes real.
I've dealt with phantom genitals ever since I can remember. As a child I wasn't consciously aware of where the desire came from, but I'd constantly tuck my genitals down between my thighs, and push the head of my penis down until it was inverted into a tube inside of my pubis, because somehow it felt "right." And I'd always feel this great sense of disappointment when, while tucked like that, it started getting erect and I couldn't keep it tucked anymore, because I wanted it to stay that way.
I actually tried freezing them off as a teenager because the sensation of having full-size male genitals, and the erections that go with them, felt so alien to me, and so repulsive.
Pretty much every single day, as soon as I stop consciously focusing on my genitals and then abruptly are reminded of them somehow, there'll be this moment where my brain realizes "oh yeah, I have a penis," and it will snap back from its "default" programming where there's nothing there back to the reality of what's still unfortunately actually there.
When I press on the back part of my pubis, I can very vividly feel that there should be a vagina there.
I did have one girlfriend in my life, and we did become very physically close. Every single time that we were ever snuggling together, the feelings that I was feeling felt wrong, and somewhere in my mind I could instantly feel exactly the sensations that she was feeling, because I feel like my mind is programmed to be that way myself.
It's hard. Especially since I currently have no access to SRS, and an unsupportive half of the family who makes me feel embarrassed of myself to think of having SRS, plus being scared to death of the recovery and constant dilation need, even though those phantom feelings never go away, and are a persistent source of me hating my body.
Check.
Suzi,
I second what Jayne said. Please don't freak out. That is actually very common in amputees who had to have surgery to survive. I don't mean that to sound as negative to your experience as I wrote that, it is just as close a comparison as I can come up with. I don't think it means anything. Every journey is different.
I also think as I said it is mostly from dreams and the power of suggestion and imagination. The mind is a powerful thing. I am no more a real MTF than you are. Truth be told I am so new to the party that I feel like I am making it up as I go along. Doubt is a powerful thing too. While I often doubt and question things but it can be a dangerous path.
So many of your posts I have read have helped me to ask the right questions and stay on a good path.
Try to have a great rest of your day.
With loving thoughts,
Joanna
Suzi : Plenty of people who've lost limbs do NOT have phantom limb syndrome, though, and I suspect you'd agree that doesn't mean they were "meant" to be missing a part. :) You're happy with the way your body is shaped now, and that's the important part.
As for the thread topic, I had a bit of phantom vagina now and again... and have to admit that, post-op, it really doesn't feel like I expect. (It's harder to get any feedback from the vaginal canal at all than I expected, and what I do feel tends to be vaguer than I thought it would be, except during dilation. And as far as dilation is concerned, the sensation of something being *in* there is just indescribable according to my past experience. I had no idea what that would be like, it turns out.)
Jenna Marie, don't know how I would describe feeling of a vagina; I only feel mine when I put a tampon in and out which is not much of a feeling after the first few times. Never had any real problems with mine, no itching, etc.
mm : well, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who doesn't get much feedback from there. :)
(Vulva, yes. Vagina, no.)
yeah I've definitely experienced having 'phantom parts' before
Yes, phantom parts. In that place b/t awake and asleep, I've often felt a heaviness down there, to the point that I've reached down to adjust a few times, only to come away empty handed. Before I realized I was trans*, I've always pretty much attributed it to reincarnation, to remembering when I had my guy parts. (Okay, I still kinda contribute it to reincarnation.)
Speaking of "heaviness", the last time I got lasered down there the numbing cream left "it" completely numb...I told the tech that although I couldn't feel "it", I could still feel a heaviness inside, like I had an erection....but I was pretty sure I didn't. She confirmed I didn't, but still the sensation was there, and it felt very familiar.
So Chris...I'd say your phantom sensation is accurate to the real thing.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on May 27, 2015, 08:03:39 PM
Speaking of "heaviness", the last time I got lasered down there the numbing cream left "it" completely numb...I told the tech that although I couldn't feel "it", I could still feel a heaviness inside, like I had an erection....but I was pretty sure I didn't. She confirmed I didn't, but still the sensation was there, and it felt very familiar.
So Chris...I'd say your phantom sensation is accurate to the real thing.
Awesome!!
Timely thread, Jayne, thanks for starting it as this is something that's been on my mind a lot of late. For me it's essentially phantom torso, or at least it sure has the same quality as the ghosting sensations after my appendectomy. As a post-puberty, pre-everything MtF it's all the incongruencies one would expect from not having a female body. Not something which intrudes into conscious sensation but the phantom sensation is right there if I slow down during the day and pay attention. Sometimes it's dysphoric but most of the time I find it a deeply reassuring affirmation I really am female despite presenting male. So the occasional nights when my body sensations don't go female as I'm falling asleep are often disturbing.
Tops is the pelvic width mismatch. Rather frustrating as I was born round two decades too early to take blockers and redirect puberty, so epiphyseal closure's occurred long ago and HRT won't do anything for it physically (if HRT intensifies the sensations I probably wouldn't be able to stay on it without going loopy). Second is shoulder width, which kind of goes together with phantom breasts. And, if the sensations are strong or I'm really paying attention, phantom ribcage. I'm a side sleeper and often fold my arms in front of me. So with the combination of hips too narrow, upper body too wide, and insufficient forward projection finding a position that's psychologically comfortable and respectful of they way all of the various spaces are supposed to be can take some doing. Have tinkered around with a various sleep arrangements over the years and at one point was so frustrated waking up the first thing I did that day was stuff the mattress in the car and take it to rubbish.
Phantom vagina is a mostly a miss. Phantom labia and maybe some clitoris, yes, more when aroused. But the incongruence is no fun and overall it's quite off putting. Makes me contemplate an orchi, both to deal with the worst of the physical mismatch and see if I can work out an alternate androgen arrangement which lowers what little interest I do have in that direction.
Susan's hosts a number of earlier threads on phantom sensation which may also be of interest. They'll pop up on a search.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 27, 2015, 02:21:04 PMI'd always feel this great sense of disappointment when, while tucked like that, it started getting erect and I couldn't keep it tucked anymore, because I wanted it to stay that way.
This. So this. Complaining about the erectile response and my mother somewhat embarrassedly but gently telling me just to leave it alone is one of my earliest memories of being trans.
A SRS arrangement I've been wondering about is labiaplasty without vaginoplasty. Would be a less invasive procedure with, hopefully, a shorter recovery time. No need for dilation and might be cheaper as well. Certainly not for everyone. But it's a set of tradeoffs I personally am comfortable with at least in principle, having never cared much for penetrative sex in any form. Plus I spend a lot of time in the field where dilation is substantially more hassle than with indoor plumbing or even a dry cabin.
Quote from: Jayne on May 27, 2015, 07:07:11 AMOne of the reasons that this fascinates me is that I saw a you tube video a while ago with a man explaining that phantom limb syndrome is something that trans people do not experience after having corrective surgery to remove the parts they are uncomfortable with, whilst those who've been forced to have parts removed either due to medical reasons or accidents often report phantom limb syndrome.
The man in question being Prof. Robert Sapolsky of the epic beard at Stanford? If so, my memory is the clip's extracted from about 80 minutes into the Sexuality II lecture from Human Behavioral Biology. Great class and well worth watching all the lectures for the all sorts of interesting things they get into (it's on YouTube as a playlist). There've been a number of studies on the phenomena with varying results, much of the variability likely being due to small cohorts. Generally it seems MtF SRS exhibits a reduced prevalence of phantom sensation compared to traumatic genital removal---some of the more comprehensive references I'm aware of suggest something in the vicinity of one third incidence versus two thirds incidence---but the data is not well controlled for the retention of nerve connections in penile inversion vaginoplasty. It may be the difference is simply that of a carefully executed procedure versus injury.
So, Suzi, no worries. So far as I know the data suggests your experience is common.
Sorry not to provide links in the above; not enough posts yet. Working on that. :)
Whenever I put a seatbelt on, and the shoulder strap rests on my sternum, I always feel it rest perfectly between my phantom breasts, as if cushioned somehow. I'm pre-everything, but I still feel it whenever I buckle up.
QuoteA SRS arrangement I've been wondering about is labiaplasty without vaginoplasty. Would be a less invasive procedure with, hopefully, a shorter recovery time. No need for dilation and might be cheaper as well. Certainly not for everyone.
There are surgeons who do this...just ask them.
Thank you, Beth, I figured as much. Out of curiosity, is there anyone in particular you might suggest on the left coast of North America?
Quote from: Metanoia on May 27, 2015, 11:18:03 PMI still feel it whenever I buckle up.
Get that too. The alignment's not perfect, though; usually feels like the strap should twist just a little (I'm probably a phantom A cup but fitting phantom bras is tricky :) ). One of these days it's going to act up on a road trip and I'll have to find a place to stop and walk for a while or something until the dysphoria calms down.
I think I know what video you're referring to. In it the person was saying that the phantom limb sensation in MtFs was much lower than in cis people who had been castrated, not that there were no MtFs who experienced it.
Coming from the other side, I definitely feel as though I've experienced times where I had phantom limb like sensations. It hasn't happened a whole lot and I have trouble telling if it was just powerful imagination and wishful thinking or phantom limb. The mind is a curious thing indeed.
These two studies may be of interest
Ramachandran, V. S. "Phantom Penises in Transsexuals." *Journal of
Consciousness Studies *15 (2008): 5-16.
and
Ramachandran, V. S., and P. D. McGeoch. "Occurrence of Phantom Genitalia
after Gender Reassignment Surgery." [In eng]. *Med Hypotheses *69, no. 5
(2007): 1001-3.
I think they are available in Google Scholar
Wow!! I'm blown away by how many people have had this sensation, thank you all for your responses.
I've only had a phantom vj sensation one or two times in my life (during arousal), I didn't post about it originaly as it was decades ago & my memory of those decades is a bit of a haze so I don't trust my distant memories too much.
Phantom boobs was one of the biggest triggers for my dysphoria over the years.
I'm very gratefull to the men who've posted about getting phantom bits feelings as when I was giving this explanation at the womens shelter I was really worried that i'd be asked about FTM's getting this sensation & have no knowledge or answer, any answers I give in my talk will now be much better informed.
Just as in the everlasting foot shrinkage debate, just because a person hasn't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen & shouildn't invalidate other peoples experience if they haven't had it
(Yes, I know for a fact Brassard offers "cosmetic" GRS with no vaginal canal. Identical in every other respect, so functional for sexuality as well, just not penetration. I have a friend who wishes she'd done it.)
I've had phantom bits as far back as I can remember. The way it works for me is I have a map in my brain of what my body is like, except that unfortunately Real Me isn't the same as physical me. If I had the artistic ability, I could even draw a picture of Real Me.
Dr Meltzer also offers it.
8)
Quote from: Mosaic dude on May 28, 2015, 06:03:58 AM
I've had phantom bits as far back as I can remember. The way it works for me is I have a map in my brain of what my body is like, except that unfortunately Real Me isn't the same as physical me. If I had the artistic ability, I could even draw a picture of Real Me.
Quote from: Mosaic dude on May 28, 2015, 06:03:58 AM
I've had phantom bits as far back as I can remember. The way it works for me is I have a map in my brain of what my body is like, except that unfortunately Real Me isn't the same as physical me. If I had the artistic ability, I could even draw a picture of Real Me.
Ditto this. I never recognize myself in photos and don't really relate to seeing myself in a mirror as my image. I keep expecting the 'inside my head' me to be the outside me, too. This has happened since I was little, under three, I think. Less than 5 years old for sure.
Quote from: Jayne on May 27, 2015, 07:07:11 AM
One part of the answer I gave was to explain that i've often had what I called Phantom Boob Syndrome, I explained that when relaxed I would frequently feel that I had breasts
It's odd you mention this because I have the opposite, or can do the opposite. When I relax or zone out I'm able to feel my chest disappear, if that makes sense, almost like my brain blocks out any sensation from that area. I can feel my shirt flat against my chest and back. I actually used to do this to ease my dysphoria when I had to dress as female at work. I couldn't stand feeling my chest or the bra I had on so I would imagine they weren't there and let them disappear to my mind. I think for me it's a phantom limb type of sensation and a coping mechanism.
I also have the phantom feeling downstairs too. I've had that for as long as I can remember and as a child I was extremely disturbed by it. As I got older though I realized what the sensation was and just became used to it. The phantom boner sensation is something I experience off and on too as an adult.
Sorry for the TMI with this next one but I've also had what I can only describe as phantom orgasms and I wonder if anyone else has experienced that? Although male and female orgasms aren't all that different there are a few things about them that are and a lot of times, depending on how I'm stimulated, it feels as if I have a more male orgasm. I've never wanted to come right out and make a thread about it to ask but since there's already a thread along these lines I may as well.
Quote from: Mosaic dude on May 28, 2015, 06:03:58 AMIf I had the artistic ability, I could even draw a picture of Real Me.
I've thought about doing just this, sort of as a guide for FFS as such, sort of as acknowledgement for dysphoria management. However, I've a cis cousin who's close to Real Me so it's kind of beside the point. It's super empowering for thinking about transition---YES, I have the genes and CAN do this---but sometimes family reunions seriously mess with my head. It's one thing to look in a mirror and see what you got at birth, quite another to look across a room without a mirror and pretty much see who you feel you are.
Quote from: Contravene on May 28, 2015, 01:59:44 PMSorry for the TMI with this next one but I've also had what I can only describe as phantom orgasms and I wonder if anyone else has experienced that?
Hmm, after a couple tries at assembling a non-TMI answer I'm thinking this is probably best discussed in the sexuality forum or perhaps PM. Worthy question I found quite thought provoking, though; thanks for posing it.
QuoteI've thought about doing just this, sort of as a guide for FFS as such, sort of as acknowledgement for dysphoria management. However, I've a cis cousin who's close to Real Me so it's kind of beside the point. It's super empowering for thinking about transition---YES, I have the genes and CAN do this---but sometimes family reunions seriously mess with my head. It's one thing to look in a mirror and see what you got at birth, quite another to look across a room without a mirror and pretty much see who you feel you are.
I understand completely. Facial resemblance is really strong in my family, and my face is eerily similar to my dad's, and to my cousin's face. I say cousin, but he's more distantly related than that. A while ago I saw a photo of the family founder and yep, you guessed it, he was the spitting image of dad. A little bit of bone growth and I too will be a lookalike for great-times-several granddad Rasmus. It's both comforting and unsettling at the same time.