Hi, everyone. I have been researching jaw reduction surgery for over a year now. I had my first in-person consult with Dr. Z and he agreed to do the surgery along with a neck lift. He did not think any other work would be needed (like cheek implants or brow lift).
My biggest concern (other than losing the feeling in my face or dying..) is how much mandible they can actually shave off. I think I have only seen MY desired amount of bone removed on patients in Asia, but who knows if they Photoshop or not. Otherwise, it has been subtle for American patients, no? Any photos of that would be appreciated.
I am deciding between Dr. Z and Dr. Spiegal. I worry Dr. S would be too subtle, but I feel more comfortable with him due to the fact he demands x-rays for safety and does the surgery in a hospital (Dr. Z does not provide either). Dr. Z is local to me though. Dr. Z said Dr. S is unable to shave the chin vertically due to the "inside the mouth" technique, but who knows if it is true. I can't find pictures where Dr. S actually shaved the chin.
I should add, I am a genetic woman, but my jaw is large and masculine.
http://i.imgur.com/zILSqbJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/6SEVtWu.png
The shadow actually shaves off some of my jaw..
http://i.imgur.com/ZyhAPeS.png
http://i.imgur.com/9RloyuK.png
I get the impression that some chin+jaw tapering can be done, but it will not be a humongous difference, but it will be a noticeable difference
Quote from: Ever on June 16, 2015, 06:17:30 AM
I get the impression that some chin+jaw tapering can be done, but it will not be a humongous difference, but it will be a noticeable difference
I need to find a doctor who does work like this then...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fxz1wCmj.jpg&hash=d06232428fdc0bbe37570a6d3295692663555491)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcJIK98e.jpg&hash=ef7334bf46f60d36e63c9d0192007941843fd2ac)
I would suggest Dr Park from ID Hospital in Seoul but if you want to stay in the USA i would suggest you contact Dr Harrison Lee in Beverly hills he is very talented in jawn an chin work.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 11:55:19 AM
I need to find a doctor who does work like this then...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fxz1wCmj.jpg&hash=d06232428fdc0bbe37570a6d3295692663555491)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcJIK98e.jpg&hash=ef7334bf46f60d36e63c9d0192007941843fd2ac)
I've seen results from Dr. Z that are equivalent to the first set of pictures. It is my understanding that Dr. Z is very aggressive. Best wishes :)
Quote from: sh1982 on June 16, 2015, 04:19:58 PM
I would suggest Dr Park from ID Hospital in Seoul but if you want to stay in the USA i would suggest you contact Dr Harrison Lee in Beverly hills he is very talented in jawn an chin work.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Quote from: kittenpower on June 16, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
I've seen results from Dr. Z that are equivalent to the first set of pictures. It is my understanding that Dr. Z is very aggressive. Best wishes :)
You think? I saw his slideshow with patients and was wary of his results because his after photos were always glam selfies and not taken in a medical setting. I talked to someone who went to him and she said she had saggy skin and unevenness. I know everyone is different though.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 05:23:46 AM
Dr. Z said Dr. S is unable to shave the chin vertically due to the "inside the mouth" technique, but who knows if it is true.
I know! :)
It not true... with "inside the mouth" incision it's possible to do both lateral and vertical osteotomies and shaving. How efficient, is largely dependent on surgeons skills. And how much can be removed depends on bone thickness, shape, etc...
Most FFS surgeons use "inside the mouth" incisions and avoid any unnecessary scars out outside.
I don't really have an opinion on which one out of those two surgeons would be "better" or more aggressive, as I didn't need to research and compare lower face for my surgery.
All the women in those before and after pics had clearly lost weight in the after shots, especially the top/1st one.. Reduced amounts of fat will also make a visible difference.
Also, removing too much bone makes the likelihood of breaking your jaw much higher.
Dr. Z also removes some of the masseter muscle which helps to refine the jawline.
Quote from: kittenpower on June 16, 2015, 07:01:13 PM
Dr. Z also removes some of the masseter muscle which helps to refine the jawline.
He mentioned that which actually scares me. I don't want that to affect my chewing strength. Maybe I am ignorant on the subject, but I just don't see that as a problem for me. I am all bone issues.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 05:23:46 AM
Hi, everyone. I have been researching jaw reduction surgery for over a year now. I had my first in-person consult with Dr. Z and he agreed to do the surgery along with a neck lift. He did not think any other work would be needed (like cheek implants or brow lift).
My biggest concern (other than losing the feeling in my face or dying..) is how much mandible they can actually shave off. I think I have only seen MY desired amount of bone removed on patients in Asia, but who knows if they Photoshop or not. Otherwise, it has been subtle for American patients, no? Any photos of that would be appreciated.
I am deciding between Dr. Z and Dr. Spiegal. I worry Dr. S would be too subtle, but I feel more comfortable with him due to the fact he demands x-rays for safety and does the surgery in a hospital (Dr. Z does not provide either). Dr. Z is local to me though. Dr. Z said Dr. S is unable to shave the chin vertically due to the "inside the mouth" technique, but who knows if it is true. I can't find pictures where Dr. S actually shaved the chin.
I should add, I am a genetic woman, but my jaw is large and masculine.
Before you make any final decisions, maybe you should consider seeing a board certified plastic surgeon - - who is also formally trained in orthognathic surgery. I am pretty sure that is the "right" set of surgical skills that one would want in order to properly address the concerns you have described.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 05:23:46 AM
Hi, everyone. I have been researching jaw reduction surgery for over a year now. I had my first in-person consult with Dr. Z and he agreed to do the surgery along with a neck lift. He did not think any other work would be needed (like cheek implants or brow lift).
My biggest concern (other than losing the feeling in my face or dying..) is how much mandible they can actually shave off. I think I have only seen MY desired amount of bone removed on patients in Asia, but who knows if they Photoshop or not. Otherwise, it has been subtle for American patients, no? Any photos of that would be appreciated.
I am deciding between Dr. Z and Dr. Spiegal. I worry Dr. S would be too subtle, but I feel more comfortable with him due to the fact he demands x-rays for safety and does the surgery in a hospital (Dr. Z does not provide either). Dr. Z is local to me though. Dr. Z said Dr. S is unable to shave the chin vertically due to the "inside the mouth" technique, but who knows if it is true. I can't find pictures where Dr. S actually shaved the chin.
I should add, I am a genetic woman, but my jaw is large and masculine.
http://i.imgur.com/zILSqbJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/6SEVtWu.png
The shadow actually shaves off some of my jaw..
http://i.imgur.com/ZyhAPeS.png
http://i.imgur.com/9RloyuK.png
BTW - - I went back and looked at your pictures. Sorry I should have looked before the last post.
You are an incredibly beautiful woman. Please be careful in your research and "get this right" - - the first time. You really do not want any "re-do's". One of the reasons you want to see an orthognathic surgeon is because there are some recently developed methods to use digital modeling of the bone structure in order for the jaw surgeon to better predict the final result. That is pretty new technology - - but it is being done by at least a few orthognathic surgeons, and some of them are also fully certified ABMS / ABPS board certified plastic surgeons.
Also, from the pictures you have shared, you look as though you could be a professional model, therefore your current jaw and chin shape could give you a unique look, and if you decide to alter them, it could change your look so much, that it could affect your ability to find jobs, or on the other hand it could help you. I'm just making an assumption based on what I could see in your pictures, so please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on June 16, 2015, 11:25:42 PM
BTW - - I went back and looked at your pictures. Sorry I should have looked before the last post.
You are an incredibly beautiful woman. Please be careful in your research and "get this right" - - the first time. You really do not want any "re-do's". One of the reasons you want to see an orthognathic surgeon is because there are some recently developed methods to use digital modeling of the bone structure in order for the jaw surgeon to better predict the final result. That is pretty new technology - - but it is being done by at least a few orthognathic surgeons, and some of them are also fully certified ABMS / ABPS board certified plastic surgeons.
Thank you for that suggestion! It did not cross my mind and have only looked into plastic surgeons for FFS. I will reach out to a local orthognathic/maxillofacial surgeon and ask if they do jaw reductions. I mean, they cut the jaw already for overbites.. can't they shave mine down? Maybe they can at least give referrals. Great idea.
Thank you for the compliments. ;D
Quote from: kittenpower on June 16, 2015, 11:30:33 PM
Also, from the pictures you have shared, you look as though you could be a professional model, therefore your current jaw and chin shape could give you a unique look, and if you decide to alter them, it could change your look so much, that it could affect your ability to find jobs, or on the other hand it could help you. I'm just making an assumption based on what I could see in your pictures, so please forgive me if I am overstepping any boundaries.
One of the photos was for a (free) photo shoot to try and boost my self-esteem and get me out of my shell. I am not a professional, but thank you! You are not overstepping. Honestly, after getting that photo shoot done, it only showed me how large my jaw actually was. I was being deceived by the shadow in my bathroom mirror I'd look at every morning.
One thing I'm skeptical about with those before and after shots, not only for the reasons mentioned above, but also because every single one of the before's head is tilted back, while all the after's are tilted forward.
Yes, you do look like a gorgeous creature!
But I also understand the desire to change something that others may hastily dismiss you as being too self-deprecating.
I'm sorry this has bothered you so much... and hopefully you get what you need, and have it done well...
I don't say this in any paternalistic sense, but I think it may be good to find a therapist to just talk to about how you feel. To reflect on my own case: there's all these annoying hoops I had to jump through in order to start hormones, but in retrospect, I see that I made some fantastic bonds and helped myself in ways I wouldn't have otherwise sought... (however, I find that I don't fit well with 19 out of 20 therapists I try out, so it takes some shopping sometimes, or sometimes you get lucky on the first try)
In any case, it hasn't changed the fact that I'm going to get FFS in August, but it has helped me to talk about it, and has inclusively helped me with making the decision of surgeon.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 11:41:40 PM
Thank you for that suggestion! It did not cross my mind and have only looked into plastic surgeons for FFS. I will reach out to a local orthognathic/maxillofacial surgeon and ask if they do jaw reductions. I mean, they cut the jaw already for overbites.. can't they shave mine down? Maybe they can at least give referrals. Great idea.
Thank you for the compliments. ;D
Jayhey,
Sorry - - maybe I was more confusing than clear.
I would suggest that what you really should find for your surgeon is:
First, a plastic surgeon. A board certified plastic surgeon and one who is board certified by the Am Brd of Plastic Surgery (an ABMS approved "real" board, rather than one of the pseudo boards).
Second, that board certified plastic surgeon should ALSO be trained in orthognathic (or oral maxillo facial) surgery.
One without the other - - is not what I suspect that you really want. You will probably have to travel to find one. Some of the surgeons trained this way also do FFS and a couple of them are also trained in craniofacial surgery.
There are not very many in the U.S. that are both. There are some. But be careful ! Be thorough. The internet makes this confusing. There are some maxillo-facial surgeons who claim to also be plastic surgeons, but they are not actually trained as plastic surgeons (full five or six year plastic surgery training program ) and they are not board certified by the ABPS. Some advertise some of the pseudo boards which have confusingly similar names (example: ABFPS - - Am Brd of Facial Plastic Surgery). If you are unsure, you can go to the www.abms.org (american board of medial specialties web site) and find a list of the 24 boards that are the "real deal". The ABFPS is not one of those 24 recognized boards.
And given what is evident from your pictures - - a decision to have nothing done may have some merit. But do your homework.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 11:45:01 PM
One of the photos was for a (free) photo shoot to try and boost my self-esteem and get me out of my shell. I am not a professional, but thank you! You are not overstepping. Honestly, after getting that photo shoot done, it only showed me how large my jaw actually was. I was being deceived by the shadow in my bathroom mirror I'd look at every morning.
If you want to achieve a result close to what the asian girls got in the photos you shared you will need more then just shaving, you would need a genioplasty for your chin and most likly what is called 2 jaw surgery korea wherby they move your lower and/or upper jaw forward or backward depending on that is needed you would also need to a wear braces after that kind of surgery/
Quote from: myfairlady49 on June 17, 2015, 05:32:29 PM
Jayhey,
Sorry - - maybe I was more confusing than clear.
I would suggest that what you really should find for your surgeon is:
First, a plastic surgeon. A board certified plastic surgeon and one who is board certified by the Am Brd of Plastic Surgery (an ABMS approved "real" board, rather than one of the pseudo boards).
Second, that board certified plastic surgeon should ALSO be trained in orthognathic (or oral maxillo facial) surgery.
One without the other - - is not what I suspect that you really want. You will probably have to travel to find one. Some of the surgeons trained this way also do FFS and a couple of them are also trained in craniofacial surgery.
There are not very many in the U.S. that are both. There are some. But be careful ! Be thorough. The internet makes this confusing. There are some maxillo-facial surgeons who claim to also be plastic surgeons, but they are not actually trained as plastic surgeons (full five or six year plastic surgery training program ) and they are not board certified by the ABPS. Some advertise some of the pseudo boards which have confusingly similar names (example: ABFPS - - Am Brd of Facial Plastic Surgery). If you are unsure, you can go to the www.abms.org (american board of medial specialties web site) and find a list of the 24 boards that are the "real deal". The ABFPS is not one of those 24 recognized boards.
And given what is evident from your pictures - - a decision to have nothing done may have some merit. But do your homework.
I found someone with better credentials. Dr. Barry Eppley (has he ever been talked about on here for jaw work?)
"He is both a licensed physician and dentist as well as double board-certified in both Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery and Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery."
I talked to Barry and after I said I'd like my entire jaw and chin shaved down: "It is not possible to reduce the overall jaw. The most practical reductions are in the vertical length and width of the chin, jaw angle width reduction and sine slight vertical reduction between the two."
What....?
Talk to Facial team, dr. Capitan and dr. Simon do skype consultations quite often...
They do CT-3D-scans, pre-op and post-op... If I would need chin-jaw work I would look at them first.
Don't worry, It is a piece of cake, there are girls thay have 3x bigger jaw than you and they really get nice results, Korea is very good in these procedures. They can also reduce maxilla ( between your eyes and lip "middle face area" ) and zygomatic + cheekbones they can reduce these bones .
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KaSOAINXh58%2FUe9BQOHEHMI%2FAAAAAAAAAjc%2F5vE9iGMhvuA%2Fs1600%2Ftwo%2Bjaw%2Bdouble%2Bjaw%2Bsurgery%2Bcost%2Bin%2Bkorea.jpg&hash=c386e261203cdcfeb00b3589ece3d066e0266b96)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FgC-6x31dqK0%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=f512907982db3b4ed97448ec8249748cf526919c)
Quote from: mmmmm on June 19, 2015, 02:07:50 PM
Talk to Facial team, dr. Capitan and dr. Simon do skype consultations quite often...
They do CT-3D-scans, pre-op and post-op... If I would need chin-jaw work I would look at them first.
Okay, thanks. I contacted them for a Skype consultation. Their work seems more aggressive which I like.
Quote from: jayhey on June 19, 2015, 06:24:40 PM
Okay, thanks. I contacted them for a Skype consultation. Their work seems more aggressive which I like.
And they are overobsessive with pre-surgical analyzation and details, which is very important if you want aggressive chin & jaw work.
Quote from: fluttershy1617 on June 19, 2015, 02:24:01 PM
Don't worry, It is a piece of cake, there are girls thay have 3x bigger jaw than you and they really get nice results, Korea is very good in these procedures. They can also reduce maxilla ( between your eyes and lip "middle face area" ) and zygomatic + cheekbones they can reduce these bones .
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KaSOAINXh58%2FUe9BQOHEHMI%2FAAAAAAAAAjc%2F5vE9iGMhvuA%2Fs1600%2Ftwo%2Bjaw%2Bdouble%2Bjaw%2Bsurgery%2Bcost%2Bin%2Bkorea.jpg&hash=c386e261203cdcfeb00b3589ece3d066e0266b96)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FgC-6x31dqK0%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=f512907982db3b4ed97448ec8249748cf526919c)
Flutershy1617,
I do not know where the pictures from Korea came from - - but those are not the same people - - or they are seriously photo shopped.
Not hard to figure that out - -. If you just screen capture the pictures and put them into any picture editor, you can easily measure the distance between the eyes - - and then other facial landmarks. When you scale the pictures so that the distance between the eyes is exactly the same - - then the other facial landmarks (that cannot be surgically altered) do not match between the two pictures (left and right ).
Whichever surgeon is sponsoring those pictures on some web site somewhere is putting up pictures that do not appear to even be physically possible to be what the sponsor of those pictures intend for the viewer to believe.
If those were used by some U.S. based surgeon for marketing in the U.S., then they would likely constitute fraud and deceptive marketing practices. Somebody could lose their license.
One has to be really careful about this sort of thing. It tends to happen rather more often with marketing efforts from outside the U.S., although it can happen in the U.S.
like I said at beginning: there is only so much that can safely be done to reduce chin/jaw, but even a slight reduction might be better than none, and you might grow to appreciate the change as subtle but significant
I'd only go to one of the high level reputable ffs surgeons or comparable
Quote from: jayhey on June 19, 2015, 06:24:40 PM
Okay, thanks. I contacted them for a Skype consultation. Their work seems more aggressive which I like.
Jayhey,
Permission to be blunt ?
So,
1) you ask a lot of good questions about trying to change your wide jaw.
2) You post up pictures of your face.
3) In response to the good questions about which surgeon to find - - you ultimately do exactly the right thing:
You find a surgeon who is
a) board certified by a real plastic surgery board:
b) qualified in orthognathic or maxilla-facial surgery; and,
c) has at least some training in craniofacial surgery.
4) This surgeon is not known for his FFS work - - but he really does appear to be qualified to tell you what is medically possible to be done for you.
5) This surgeon reviews your requests and then politely refuses to take your money and do the surgery you are seeking. Further, that surgeon who will not take your money tells you that what you want cannot be accomplished with surgery.
And that isn't good enough. You won't take that "no" for an answer. So you start out to hunt another surgeon, based on further suggestions in this thread of messages. And you will probably end up with someone, maybe someone in a foreign country, who is not nearly as well qualified - -
and who will be willing to take your money.If you were to now, again, go to one of the very few other surgeons that are trained in those three areas - - and are actually experienced in full FFS work - - I suspect they might also tell you the same thing that the surgeon has already told you. But maybe not. But if they did think what you want can be done, then you would want a really good explanation as to why and how the changes you want can be done by them, and why the first surgeon said it could not be done. And you would want to carefully consider the benefits you seek against the surgical risks that always exist even in the hands of the very best of the best surgeons.
There are very few in the world with training in those three critical areas
and extensive real FFS experience.
Finally, when I look at your pictures - - if you were my friend - - I would tell you to thank your lucky stars that you are stunningly beautiful with a "trade mark" facial structure that reminds me of Muriel Hemingway's distinctive and beautiful face.
**********
Why do I (and I would expect any number of others looking at this string of messages and your pictures ) get the feeling that what you are trying to do - -
is really not going to work out very well ? So - - thank you for allowing me to to be blunt. Please be very very careful.
The enemy of beautiful is often an attempt at "better".
Quote from: myfairlady49 on June 19, 2015, 09:16:14 PM
Flutershy1617,
I do not know where the pictures from Korea came from - - but those are not the same people - - or they are seriously photo shopped.
Not hard to figure that out - -. If you just screen capture the pictures and put them into any picture editor, you can easily measure the distance between the eyes - - and then other facial landmarks. When you scale the pictures so that the distance between the eyes is exactly the same - - then the other facial landmarks (that cannot be surgically altered) do not match between the two pictures (left and right ).
Whichever surgeon is sponsoring those pictures on some web site somewhere is putting up pictures that do not appear to even be physically possible to be what the sponsor of those pictures intend for the viewer to believe.
If those were used by some U.S. based surgeon for marketing in the U.S., then they would likely constitute fraud and deceptive marketing practices. Somebody could lose their license.
One has to be really careful about this sort of thing. It tends to happen rather more often with marketing efforts from outside the U.S., although it can happen in the U.S.
These kind of resulrs can be achieved since besides pictures the also have clips on their website with people having similair results plus they do a make over show in Korea with sometimes stunning results.But these kind of results cannot be achieved with just shave these kind of results involve moving the lower jaw backward and the upper jaw forward which are very invasive surgeries.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on June 19, 2015, 09:48:41 PM
Jayhey,
Permission to be blunt ?
So,
1) you ask a lot of good questions about trying to change your wide jaw.
2) You post up pictures of your face.
3) In response to the good questions about which surgeon to find - - you ultimately do exactly the right thing:
You find a surgeon who is
a) board certified by a real plastic surgery board:
b) qualified in orthognathic or maxilla-facial surgery; and,
c) has at least some training in craniofacial surgery.
4) This surgeon is not known for his FFS work - - but he really does appear to be qualified to tell you what is medically possible to be done for you.
5) This surgeon reviews your requests and then politely refuses to take your money and do the surgery you are seeking. Further, that surgeon who will not take your money tells you that what you want cannot be accomplished with surgery.
And that isn't good enough. You won't take that "no" for an answer. So you start out to hunt another surgeon, based on further suggestions in this thread of messages. And you will probably end up with someone, maybe someone in a foreign country, who is not nearly as well qualified - - and who will be willing to take your money.
If you were to now, again, go to one of the very few other surgeons that are trained in those three areas - - and are actually experienced in full FFS work - - I suspect they might also tell you the same thing that the surgeon has already told you. But maybe not. But if they did think what you want can be done, then you would want a really good explanation as to why and how the changes you want can be done by them, and why the first surgeon said it could not be done. And you would want to carefully consider the benefits you seek against the surgical risks that always exist even in the hands of the very best of the best surgeons.
There are very few in the world with training in those three critical areas and extensive real FFS experience.
Finally, when I look at your pictures - - if you were my friend - - I would tell you to thank your lucky stars that you are stunningly beautiful with a "trade mark" facial structure that reminds me of Muriel Hemingway's distinctive and beautiful face.
**********
Why do I (and I would expect any number of others looking at this string of messages and your pictures ) get the feeling that what you are trying to do - - is really not going to work out very well ?
So - - thank you for allowing me to to be blunt. Please be very very careful.
The enemy of beautiful is often an attempt at "better".
It's just that I have had 2 consultations with 2 well-known FFS surgeons (one in person and one by Skype) and they said they could do what I asked, so to have a surgeon to say no in a confusing way, continues to make me wonder. I appreciate your concern though.
And like sh1982 said, the Asian photos actually are real (Although, I still think they edit them). I have watched way too many Asian plastic surgery shows to know it's real. :o
If the Facial Team says no, then I'll reconsider the surgery. I have read on previous threads that they will not hesitate to deny surgeries they don't find necessary.
Quote from: sh1982 on June 19, 2015, 10:42:43 PM
These kind of resulrs can be achieved since besides pictures the also have clips on their website with people having similair results plus they do a make over show in Korea with sometimes stunning results.But these kind of results cannot be achieved with just shave these kind of results involve moving the lower jaw backward and the upper jaw forward which are very invasive surgeries.
Sh1982
The types of surgeries you are describing were first developed in Switzerland by Hugo Obwegeser during the 1950s and 1960s at about the same time that Paul Tessier was developing craniofacial surgery in Paris. All of the procedures you described were invented and perfected by Obwegeser, almost single handedly. He often collaborated with Tessier. Dr. Obwegeser has trained a very few Americans. And still fewer of those that he has trained are also plastic surgeons. Maybe only one.
Ultimately, whatever is being done in Korea - - was not invented nor even developed there.
None of that changes the fact that the pictures that are posted in this thread and other places on this forum to represent the typical capabilities of jaw surgery in Korea do not appear to be honest depictions. You don't have to be a CSI geek to figure out that they are photo-shopped and they are deceptive.
It is true that in the hands of a good orthognathic surgeon, movement of the lower jaw or the upper jaw and sometimes both can give dramatic or even stunning improvement to the face of many males and females that have over bites or under bites, or even more complicated problems. In almost all cases the best results come from those surgeries done by a real plastic surgeon who is also trained in orthognathic surgery.
Quote from: jayhey on June 19, 2015, 11:14:12 PM
It's just that I have had 2 consultations with 2 well-known FFS surgeons (one in person and one by Skype) and they said they could do what I asked, so to have a surgeon to say no in a confusing way, continues to make me wonder. I appreciate your concern though.
And like sh1982 said, the Asian photos actually are real (Although, I still think they edit them). I have watched way too many Asian plastic surgery shows to know it's real. :o
If the Facial Team says no, then I'll reconsider the surgery. I have read on previous threads that they will not hesitate to deny surgeries they don't find necessary.
Looking back at your first post, you consulted with Dr. Z and he said he could do what you wanted. Dr. S said - - ? "No" , or only with subtle results ?
Did Dr. Z say he could substantially reduce your jaw ?
According to www.certificationmatters.org, Dr. Spiegel is not a board certified plastic surgeon. He advertises board certificationn in a "plastic surgery board" that is not recognized as one of the 24 member boards approved by the american board of medical specialties. That board is not the "real" plastic surgery board. However, he is board certified in otolaryngology which is one of the ABMS recognized boards. But there is no evidence of training in orthognathic surgery or oral maxillofacial surgery (jaw surgery). But maybe that is there somewhere. Clearly, he is not trained in craniofacial surgery.
Dr. Z is a board certified plastic surgeon, but he is not trained in either jaw surgery or craniofacial surgery.
The last person you talked with is, apparently, trained in all three. Board Certified in plastic surgery and also trained in oralmaxillofacial surgery and with some experience in craniofacial surgery.
There are some other FFS surgeons that are fully trained in all three of those areas. You might keep investigating until you are really sure of the capabilities of the science and art to get the results you are seeking.
Quote from: jayhey on June 16, 2015, 05:23:46 AM
Hi, everyone. I have been researching jaw reduction surgery for over a year now. I had my first in-person consult with Dr. Z and he agreed to do the surgery along with a neck lift. He did not think any other work would be needed (like cheek implants or brow lift).
My biggest concern (other than losing the feeling in my face or dying..) is how much mandible they can actually shave off. I think I have only seen MY desired amount of bone removed on patients in Asia, but who knows if they Photoshop or not. Otherwise, it has been subtle for American patients, no? Any photos of that would be appreciated.
I am deciding between Dr. Z and Dr. Spiegal. I worry Dr. S would be too subtle, but I feel more comfortable with him due to the fact he demands x-rays for safety and does the surgery in a hospital (Dr. Z does not provide either). Dr. Z is local to me though. Dr. Z said Dr. S is unable to shave the chin vertically due to the "inside the mouth" technique, but who knows if it is true. I can't find pictures where Dr. S actually shaved the chin.
I should add, I am a genetic woman, but my jaw is large and masculine.
http://i.imgur.com/zILSqbJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/6SEVtWu.png
The shadow actually shaves off some of my jaw..
http://i.imgur.com/ZyhAPeS.png
http://i.imgur.com/9RloyuK.png
There is nothing wrong with your jaw. You have a beautiful face but apparently you are not happy with your jaw so my opinion doesn't matter.
You are a beautiful woman already. My only advice is to go to a doctor trained in maxillofacial surgery. I think that dr rossi and di maggio are both experienced maxillofacial surgeons worth of considering. Good luck
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I'm also interested in this. It seems impossible to figure out if they can change jaws enough to actually make them stop looking manly. Of course all the surgeons just ignore your concerns or whatever, but I'm constantly worried that they won't be able to bring my jaw within female range bc its definitely not right now. For instance, how much can the take off the underside to shorten the length of your face overall. I agree that oral-maxofilial surgeons would have the most experience working on jaws but some of the top FFS do not have an oral-maxofilial specialization like Dr. Spiegel, would he still be skilled enough in that case? Or could it actually be of benefit to see different surgeons for different features but then I always heard and assumed that could just be too complicated and also you end up with conflicting aesthetic directions.
Quote from: SamSparks on July 08, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
I'm also interested in this. It seems impossible to figure out if they can change jaws enough to actually make them stop looking manly. Of course all the surgeons just ignore your concerns or whatever, but I'm constantly worried that they won't be able to bring my jaw within female range bc its definitely not right now. For instance, how much can the take off the underside to shorten the length of your face overall. I agree that oral-maxofilial surgeons would have the most experience working on jaws but some of the top FFS do not have an oral-maxofilial specialization like Dr. Spiegel, would he still be skilled enough in that case? Or could it actually be of benefit to see different surgeons for different features but then I always heard and assumed that could just be too complicated and also you end up with conflicting aesthetic directions.
You could arrange for a consult with Dr. O, in San Francisco. He was first trained in maxillofacial / orthognathic surgery and then plastic surgery and then craniofacial surgery with the doctor in France that invented craniofacial surgery. Dr. O has probably done 5 or 10 times as many of those types of jaw reduction surgeries on MTF patients as any other surgeon in the world.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 08, 2015, 09:45:18 PM
You could arrange for a consult with Dr. O, in San Francisco. He was first trained in maxillofacial / orthognathic surgery and then plastic surgery and then craniofacial surgery with the doctor in France that invented craniofacial surgery. Dr. O has probably done 5 or 10 times as many of those types of jaw reduction surgeries on MTF patients as any other surgeon in the world.
Yea but hes not practicing anymore. Also I live in the Midwest so. I had a consultation with Z and it was very generic. I feel like they cant really tell you much specifics and they all bull->-bleeped-<- about how much they will be able to do for you. BUt ya he really has all the best training for FFS. Dr. Spiegel is very experienced at the craniofacial side of things and I feel he does a great job on foreheads usually... but it would be nice if he had more specific lower face training like O did.
Quote from: SamSparks on July 09, 2015, 11:01:45 AM
Yea but hes not practicing anymore. Also I live in the Midwest so. I had a consultation with Z and it was very generic. I feel like they cant really tell you much specifics and they all bull->-bleeped-<- about how much they will be able to do for you. BUt ya he really has all the best training for FFS. Dr. Spiegel is very experienced at the craniofacial side of things and I feel he does a great job on foreheads usually... but it would be nice if he had more specific lower face training like O did.
From other messages on the board, it appears that Dr. O is still seeing patients and is still going to the operating room with the younger doctor with whom he is turning his practice over to. From what I learned at one of the events last year, the other younger doctor is also extensively trained in jaw surgery in Switzerland from the Swiss surgeon who first developed that type of jaw surgery. I cannot remember his name, right now. If you want to get a definitive answer to your question - - you might give Dr. O a try, otherwise, you may go on wondering "what if ?" for a long time.
Another option to be aware of is one I learned of while getting a jaw reduction consultation. In combination with, or in lieu of, jaw surgery, some are starting to use Botox to cause atrophy to the masseter muscle. I haven't seen any results as yet. Does anyone have more info about this?
To address the question of how much bone can be removed, this is almost entirely defined by the amount of bone that can be removed while avoiding any possible damage to the mental nerve. The aperture where this nerve exits the jaw is very distinct, and your x-Rays would be used to judge how much could be removed. Damage to the mental nerve is very bad indeed, and you will want to be as confident of the capabilities of your surgeon as possible. You may find it helpful to get a copy of Dr O's 'Feminization of the transsexual' on Amazon or wherever. I have no affiliation with him or his office.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 09, 2015, 08:26:38 PM
From other messages on the board, it appears that Dr. O is still seeing patients and is still going to the operating room with the younger doctor with whom he is turning his practice over to. From what I learned at one of the events last year, the other younger doctor is also extensively trained in jaw surgery in Switzerland from the Swiss surgeon who first developed that type of jaw surgery. I cannot remember his name, right now. If you want to get a definitive answer to your question - - you might give Dr. O a try, otherwise, you may go on wondering "what if ?" for a long time.
I wish he had more before and afters though cause right now its starting at zero. Dechamps that is.
Quote from: SamSparks on July 12, 2015, 09:03:48 AM
I wish he had more before and afters though cause right now its starting at zero. Dechamps that is.
Some of Deschamps-Braly's patients have posted pictures in this forum. If I recall correctly, they reflected some rather spectacular results.
You might ask for a consult and ask Dr. O directly what his opinion is of the work Deschamps-Braly has done ? Also, many surgeons can show you pictures in their office during a face-to-face consultation for which previous patients have given permission for that limited purpose - - but which they would not be able to publish on the internet because of the patient's privacy concerns.
One would normally think it would be unlikely for someone like Dr. Ousterhout, who has invested a lifetime of professional effort and pride in developing this field of surgery, to leave his legacy in the hands of anyone who had not already demonstrated his or her ability to consistently obtain results that meet Dr. O's highest expectations ?
Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 12, 2015, 05:37:25 PM
Some of Deschamps-Braly's patients have posted pictures in this forum. If I recall correctly, they reflected some rather spectacular results.
You might ask for a consult and ask Dr. O directly what his opinion is of the work Deschamps-Braly has done ? Also, many surgeons can show you pictures in their office during a face-to-face consultation for which previous patients have given permission for that limited purpose - - but which they would not be able to publish on the internet because of the patient's privacy concerns.
One would normally think it would be unlikely for someone like Dr. Ousterhout, who has invested a lifetime of professional effort and pride in developing this field of surgery, to leave his legacy in the hands of anyone who had not already demonstrated his or her ability to consistently obtain results that meet Dr. O's highest expectations ?
I agree but you can't overvalue the expertise that comes from experience. I'm sure Dechamps will be, if hes not already, one of the best ffs surgeons in the world. But I don't want to wait 10 years for him to go through 500 patients you know. I could be misunderstanding how long it takes someone to "get good" at surgeries like these. I just wish there was more informaiton. There only case iv seen from him was that one blonde girl from here and she didn't post befores... only afters so idk what to glean from that. I'd really like to consider him though because I like that he has training (residency) specifically in jaw surgeries (outside of ffs patients) and obviously he can do a forehead reconstruction or Dr. O wouldn't be supporting his skills... you would hope anyway. All the other ffs surgeons have more experience and more patients to look at results from though.
Quote from: SamSparks on July 13, 2015, 07:44:22 AM
I agree but you can't overvalue the expertise that comes from experience. I'm sure Dechamps will be, if hes not already, one of the best ffs surgeons in the world. But I don't want to wait 10 years for him to go through 500 patients you know. I could be misunderstanding how long it takes someone to "get good" at surgeries like these. I just wish there was more informaiton. There only case iv seen from him was that one blonde girl from here and she didn't post befores... only afters so idk what to glean from that. I'd really like to consider him though because I like that he has training (residency) specifically in jaw surgeries (outside of ffs patients) and obviously he can do a forehead reconstruction or Dr. O wouldn't be supporting his skills... you would hope anyway. All the other ffs surgeons have more experience and more patients to look at results from though.
The pictures you refer to from the blond girl - - are pretty convincing - - even without the before pictures and her comments are rather favorable. And unsolicited. And not cherry picked like a lot of pictures on Drs web sites. Also, I think there are some before pics somewhere on the net.
From his web site, Dr O's FFS protege does routinely do some rather extensive jaw surgeries on non FFS patients. Correcting shape and large over and under bites, and even moving both the upper and lower jaws at the same time. It looks like he uses digital virtual surgery to plan the details for those operations. Apparently, the policy is not to put up patient pictures on his web site. I guess there are pro and con arguments about that. And it can frustrate some of us. However, I would expect that he may be able to provide before and after pictures of jaw surgeries during face to face consultations.
And you are right. It is often a mistake to fail to properly value experience and without a teacher, it can surely take hundreds of patients to learn how to do those surgeries with consistently good results. That is a problem if you are trying to do that on your own - - with nobody to look over your shoulder and share all of their previous errors and mistakes. Which is basically what every other FFS surgeon in world is currently trying to do. Of course Dr. O did that 30 years ago and overcame that steep learning curve 20 or 25 years ago - - and, thankfully, he has now shared that hard earned experience with a hyper well trained successor.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on July 13, 2015, 06:35:17 PM
The pictures you refer to from the blond girl - - are pretty convincing - - even without the before pictures and her comments are rather favorable. And unsolicited. And not cherry picked like a lot of pictures on Drs web sites. Also, I think there are some before pics somewhere on the net.
From his web site, Dr O's FFS protege does routinely do some rather extensive jaw surgeries on non FFS patients. Correcting shape and large over and under bites, and even moving both the upper and lower jaws at the same time. It looks like he uses digital virtual surgery to plan the details for those operations. Apparently, the policy is not to put up patient pictures on his web site. I guess there are pro and con arguments about that. And it can frustrate some of us. However, I would expect that he may be able to provide before and after pictures of jaw surgeries during face to face consultations.
And you are right. It is often a mistake to fail to properly value experience and without a teacher, it can surely take hundreds of patients to learn how to do those surgeries with consistently good results. That is a problem if you are trying to do that on your own - - with nobody to look over your shoulder and share all of their previous errors and mistakes. Which is basically what every other FFS surgeon in world is currently trying to do. Of course Dr. O did that 30 years ago and overcame that steep learning curve 20 or 25 years ago - - and, thankfully, he has now shared that hard earned experience with a hyper well trained successor.
Well then I'd like to at LEAST talk to some of his patients. I haven't heard many accounts. A consultation I'm guessing would cost a lot, cause i'd have to fly out there and then pay for it so it would probably be $500+. And honestly I really don't value the consultations too much. I don't understand why some people put so much weight on how they "feel" about their surgeon like if he was nice or funny or comforting or whatever, I don't care about those feelings just results and experience. All the surgeons just tell you what they think you want to hear tbh. Its a little hard to feel comfortable with going to a younger surgeon when there are surgeons out there with 20+ years of craniofacial experience. I mean yes, hes young and bounced around Europe through various training sessions and claims to be an expert in plastic surgery, cranio-facial surgery, and orthognathic surgery and I don't doubt he has had training in all of those but his years of experience are still low which worries me a bit. He's also probably charging more than any other ffs in the world ha.
I will say that.... although the blonde girl did look very feminine it was clear that her jaw had undergone major surgery it definitely didn't look born and bred natural, not that it looked bad necessarily or unfeminine, just the shape looked like something that was formed more deliberately. But that would be preferable to still having a dude jaw after surgery I guess. The main thing worrying me about Spiegel is all the "conservative" warnings that get thrown around about him. I am on the younger side for ffs patients (I'm 22 currently) but doesn't change the fact that I have a masculine jaw and chin as well as a masculine forehead with significant brow bossing. Such a hard decision.
Im a former patient of Dr. Deschamps Braly. I had a chin reduction and jaw reduction. While overall the total effect visually was noticeable; I would not describe it as overly aggressive. I DO agree on one point you made: " it was clear that her jaw had undergone major surgery it definitely didn't look born and bred natural, not that it looked bad necessarily or unfeminine, just the shape looked like something that was formed more deliberately" This is definitely agreed upon even in my case. Dr. Deschamps Braly seems to prefer this almost too-perfect doll like lower face (pointed, overly streamlined) Im not trying to be nitpicky but I could definitely see that. I do feel Dr. Ousterhout almost perfected the right amount of aggressiveness and restraint in terms of bonework....... he did my rhino and forehead.