Frame of Reference is a term used in Physics, Linguistics, Anthropology and Philosophy (interesting Article (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%2819621212%29106%3A6%3C467%3ATAOC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage")) -- and is therefore often found in Communication theories concerning Cultural differences.
In basics it means the following:
A word, action, observation, idea is associated with numerous 'frames'; words, actions, observations and ideas. The elements that the fragment in question is associated with is the frame of reference.
E.G. Cold; frame of reference; sneezing, running nose, red eyes.
Cold; frame of reference; medicine, sick, fever.
Now, as brought forward in several discussions, Androgyne is also attached to a differentiating frame of reference depending on each individual. Naturally, frames of references of those who are Androgyne are more likely to correspond. However, to test this I have brought forth this topic, and admit that I am somewhat conducting a research. Additionally, this should (in principle) provide more clarity on why Androgyny is (often) not understood by those who are not Androgyne: there is a lack of frame of reference. Nevertheless, before I start theorising a tad too much I'll impose the question this thread is based on:
What is your Androgyne Frame of Reference? (There are no right or wrong answers.)
Posted on: September 07, 2007, 05:04:53 PM
Something tells me this topic makes people's brain hurt or everyone is simply too frightened to post first... hmm... ???
It hurts.
Androgyne; frame of reference; unable to identify in whole or in part as male or female; culturally stifled
or
Androgyne; Frame of reference; adrift alone in a sea of uncertainty: no direction home: alone in a crowd
Thank you for replying Reeb.
My frame of reference
Androgyne: inside, outside, invisible, pre-gendered, ungendered, both, neither, misunderstood, unknown, unidentified, unassociated -- an unseen gender.
My frame of reference:
Androgyne: mixed gender, free to be, unlimited, blurred, solitary, misunderstood, invisible, gender dysphoric, balance, fluid, honesty, gender decisive, spectrum, yin & yang, body-mind-soul,
My Androgyne Frame of Reference? Grey: embracing the grey in a world of black and white; reconciliation and embrace of dual aspects of humanity
I don't pretend to be understood by others.Understanding and acceptance of myself as such is paramount for it is what I am.
Cheers
Ronni
I should have said 'socially stifled' not 'culturally stifled'.
Androgyne frame of reference: inability to be satisfied about myself while nude or clothed
My ANDROGYNE frame of reference: EVOLVED
I have moved beyond the 'normal' gender boundaries, or should I say, I was born beyond 'normal' gender boudaries. The scary part is I have always felt that way, even as a child, just with simpler words. (Actually, as I child, I had some severe delusions of grandeur...mostly that I might be an angel or something because I was different than everyone else, which made me kinder and more accepting than anyone else because I knew what it was like to be rejected by the 'normal' kids...heh...I don't think highly of myself at all...)
I'm evolved. :D
And, no_id, I LOVE these types of discussions! It was completely painless. ;)
Thank you all of those who have replied so far.
I hope more will. *Gives certain people a certain look*........ hmm-mm..............
I'll reveal the purpose of this topic once more information is gathered :)
Quote from: Jaimey on September 09, 2007, 02:38:38 AM
And, no_id, I LOVE these types of discussions! It was completely painless. ;)
Win/Win. 8)
Androgyne; frame of reference;
childlike. an 8 year old's sense of self not yet poisoned by social or cultural expectations (though the expectations are noticeable).
Inability to grasp the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs.
In moments of comfort - happy and extremely spiritual
Intuitive.
Naive.
Wise.
Ahh, Rebis, I thought I was the only one. I can 'see' the subtext going on but I just don't get it, like watching a movie without the sound.
Frame of reference for androgyne:
not male or female; isolated; divine; a mix and neither; supercede; witchdoctor; councillor; spiritual guide; invisible;
I sometimes feel like we have inbuilt professional distance, like a councillor has. Like being there to guide but not participate.
Quote from: no_id on September 09, 2007, 02:45:24 AM
Thank you all of those who have replied so far.
I hope more will. *Gives certain people a certain look*........ hmm-mm..............
I wasn't avoiding your topic no-id ::) I've been out of town without internet access for a few days.
androgyne frame of reference; not male, not female, other, neither, none of the above, both, outside binary gender
Quote from: Rebis on September 09, 2007, 11:27:54 AM
Inability to grasp the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs.
I also feel this cluelessness to gender subtexts Rebis. Like, why do males and females even have to act differently, what's with all this venus and mars stuff?? ;D
zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on September 09, 2007, 08:37:00 PM
I wasn't avoiding your topic no-id ::)
But don't you feel special for getting a certain look? :3
The question now is:......... what kind of look... :P
Androgyne; Frame of Reference; Identifying as something other then male or female as a gender
I'm having doubts that I fit in Androgyne according to that frame of reference because neither Marq or Mia is identifying as other then male or female, together though the image blurs into something else which is easier to relate to people inbetween. I realize I might find myself not belonging in any of the groupings(though I doubt you all would ever turn us away). A topic specifically on this COMING SOON.
It has begun
Marq and Mia
Androgyne: balancing atop a fence; both opposites at once; a mix of different traits, thoroughly intertwined; neither male nor female; always the wrong gender; almost fitting in
Nfr
Androgyne: unconstructed, open, liberal, transcended, unattached.
Input from another Androgyne:Androgyne: confused, frightened, silenced, failed to learn the difference, failure to conform, stressed, depressed, quieted, pacified but not listened to.
I'll give everyone some more time to reply or to add to their answers before proceeding with step #2. :)
Posted on: September 10, 2007, 09:38:10 PM
Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 10, 2007, 01:42:57 AM
Androgyne; Frame of Reference; Identifying as something other then male or female as a gender
I'm having doubts that I fit in Androgyne according to that frame of reference because neither Marq or Mia is identifying as other then male or female, together though the image blurs into something else which is easier to relate to people inbetween. I realize I might find myself not belonging in any of the groupings(though I doubt you all would ever turn us away). A topic specifically on this COMING SOON.
It has begun
Marq and Mia
I can definitely understand that. I personally view Bigenderists as Bigenderists more-so than as Androgynes since I believe it's a far too strong identity seperately, and too well-defined for a Bigenderist to be regarded only Androgyne. That's my personal view on it though, and hopefully it doesn't offend.
Quote from: no_id on September 09, 2007, 11:04:16 PM
But don't you feel special for getting a certain look? :3
The question now is:......... what kind of look... :P
No_id, I think I'd better see what kind of look I'm getting before I say I feel special... :-\
Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 10, 2007, 01:42:57 AM
I'm having doubts that I fit in Androgyne according to that frame of reference because neither Marq or Mia is identifying as other then male or female, together though the image blurs into something else which is easier to relate to people inbetween. I realize I might find myself not belonging in any of the groupings(though I doubt you all would ever turn us away). A topic specifically on this COMING SOON.
Marq and Mia, I don't care what kind of androgyne you are or aren't, you're always welcome here! ;D
Besides, truth be told, half of the time I'm not sure if I even belong here :eusa_boohoo:
Zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on September 10, 2007, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: no_id on September 09, 2007, 11:04:16 PM
But don't you feel special for getting a certain look? :3
The question now is:......... what kind of look... :P
No_id, I think I'd better see what kind of look I'm getting before I say I feel special... :-\
Heh tis all good Z. Wouldn't want to miss your input in a thread. :)
There in lies the problem it seems. We're such a broad range of people that the kinship is enough for us to associate ourselves with Androgyne just because its not just male or female. Its not really the gender identity we're holding though. I think we each identify as something a lot more specific, and that might be whats confusing everyone.
But then again, maybe thats as specific as some people are willing to get about their gender identity.
My 4 cents
Get it? 4 cents, 2 x 2 ...oh nevermind
Marq and Mia
It would seem...
Is not possible to understand one gender identity without understanding the other gender identities also.
Female Gender Identity is best understood in contrast to a Male Gender Identity.
Male Gender Identity is best understood in contrast to a Female Gender Identity.
Bigender Identity would be understood only if we already have an understanding of Male Identity and Female Identity.
Androgyne Identity would be best understood as an absence of Male, Female, or Bigender Identity.
If there was no binary gender framework in place, no gender at all, everyone would possess an Androgyne Identity.
Per request:
Androgyne, frame of reference, psychology, Gender Identity type, non-binary, ungendered, undivided, unabridged, unconfined, psychologically androgynous, encompassing, continuity, stable, peaceful, consistent, gender-neutral, gender-free, unique, human, transcendent, spiritual, divine, gender euphoric.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Emerald on September 11, 2007, 07:46:51 AM
Bigender Identity would be understood only if we already have an understanding of Male Identity and Female Identity.
Androgyne Identity would be best understood as an absence of Male, Female, or Bigender Identity.
If there was no binary gender framework in place, no gender at all, everyone would possess an Androgyne Identity.
Something like that, yes. I'm more inclined to order these
1) male, female
2) male, female, neither
3) male, female, both, neither
4) male, female, both, none, not clear
That is, at stage 2 lump all non-binary groups together as androgynes (just like here ;) ); at stage 3 split off bigender; at stage 4 make a distinction between the no-gender and ambi/intergender androgynes. Further on it's possible to make even more fine-tuned categorisations, if necessary.
Nfr
Indeed Nfr... :icon_biggrin:
I have been pondering a very similar gender identity differentiation and classification system to the one you have presented.
A few differences, "not clear" was named "questioning" in my notes, etc.
Is this representative of your own independent research?
For the readers:
This is purely an exercise and inquiry into the nature of gender itself.
This is NOT a matter of segregation of actual persons.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Rebis on September 09, 2007, 11:27:54 AM
Androgyne; frame of reference;
childlike. an 8 year old's sense of self not yet poisoned by social or cultural expectations (though the expectations are noticeable).
Inability to grasp the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs.
Intuitive.
Naive.
Wise.
Me too! I feel like I have a child's mindset a lot of the time. And I really don't get the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs. Also, I think I'm pretty intuitive, naive, and wise. You're much better at verbal expression than I am!
Quote from: Jaimey on September 11, 2007, 03:29:00 PM
Quote from: Rebis on September 09, 2007, 11:27:54 AM
Androgyne; frame of reference;
childlike. an 8 year old's sense of self not yet poisoned by social or cultural expectations (though the expectations are noticeable).
Inability to grasp the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs.
Intuitive.
Naive.
Wise.
Me too! I feel like I have a child's mindset a lot of the time. And I really don't get the subtext passed between the Ms & Fs. Also, I think I'm pretty intuitive, naive, and wise. You're much better at verbal expression than I am!
It took me several passes to get there, young one. :) My previous posts were sloppy; the exact kind of work I'd expect to be fired for.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 11, 2007, 08:26:25 AM
Something like that, yes. I'm more inclined to order these
1) male, female
2) male, female, neither
3) male, female, both, neither
4) male, female, both, none, not clear
That is, at stage 2 lump all non-binary groups together as androgynes (just like here ;) ); at stage 3 split off bigender; at stage 4 make a distinction between the no-gender and ambi/intergender androgynes. Further on it's possible to make even more fine-tuned categorisations, if necessary.
Nfr
I like that, very nice but lets modify it slightly to this
0) Human
1) male, female
2) male, female, neither
3) male, female, both, neither
4) male, female, both, none, not clear
Quote from: Emerald on September 11, 2007, 09:45:44 AM
I have been pondering a very similar gender identity differentiation and classification system to the one you have presented.
It's nice to hear that I'm not totally off. :) Thanks.
Quote
A few differences, "not clear" was named "questioning" in my notes, etc.
Is this representative of your own independent research?
I wouldn't call it 'research'; I certainly don't have a background in gender theory or anything that could be considered hard data. In that sense, this is more like a result of small-scale philosophising and running in hermeneutic circles, but admittedly influenced by my interests in cognitive semantics and conceptualisation. My 'not clear' category could be further divided into 'questioning' and 'mixed', I think, although I haven't given it quite that much thought. Anyway, the labels were mostly off the top of my head.
Quote from: Emerald on September 11, 2007, 09:45:44 AM
This is purely an exercise and inquiry into the nature of gender itself.
This is NOT a matter of segregation of actual persons.
Yes, indeed. We are what we are, each of us; the question is how people divide the relevant conceptual space. As an example, because of my own background I have a hard time considering 'pink' an independent colour: it feels odd that English has a separate term for pastel shades of red, but I have no problems accepting that those shades exist. Understanding how different people divide the gender spectrum, though, now that's something that might give a bit of a new insight into how people think, how gender works, and even how the society works.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 11, 2007, 08:26:25 AM
Something like that, yes. I'm more inclined to order these
1) male, female
2) male, female, neither
3) male, female, both, neither
4) male, female, both, none, not clear
That is, at stage 2 lump all non-binary groups together as androgynes (just like here ;) ); at stage 3 split off bigender; at stage 4 make a distinction between the no-gender and ambi/intergender androgynes. Further on it's possible to make even more fine-tuned categorisations, if necessary.
Nfr
5) Fuzzy enough to waddle, not feathered enough to fly
Better late than never:
Androgyne: Failing at both, pretending to fit, unique, lonely, n, partially gendered, unrecognised, no treatment path, gender dysphoric, body dysmorphic, invisible, visible = danger, non-binary, freedom from prescribed gendered behaviour,
(Help, they're playing a pan pipe version of Evita)
Androgyne: Naive. Impulsive. Intuitive. Unfettered but Unsure.