There's something I've been hearing a lot recently, and it's been putting me on edge. Thanks to the gay marriage decision, a lot of very angry religious people have been going to war with a lot of very angry LGBTQIA people about anything: transgender people, gay people, etc. The argument is that each person, gay, straight, trans, or otherwise, is 'born that way'. I don't... really know what to think about that. When I was a little girl, I loved the quintessential 'girly' parts of my life. I played with dolls, I wore skirts and stockings, I absolutely loved My Little Pony and pink and glitter and dress-up. I couldn't have been more of my mother's perfect daughter. Unlike a lot of my peers, I wasn't already feeling that gender ache that I feel now. I never longed to be a man, I was still in that stage where 'boys were icky' and I couldn't talk to them without feeling grossed out.
That didn't change either. In 5th grade, a friend and I used to chase around this one boy in our class named Logan, and we considered ourselves deep enemies. I wasn't born thinking that I wanted to be a man. I didn't want that, not back then. So, when people say that, it makes me really, really nervous. If I say something, does that not make me a 'real' transman anymore? I feel what I am with all my heart, and I devote a lot of time to helping people with similar issues out. I didn't have gender dysphoria at a young age, and I barely have it now, though it does happen occasionally. I don't know if I'm even taking the saying right, because I've been too shy to ask people in case that they treated me like a lesser person for not being like them.
It still happens, and I don't know what to do about it. Maybe I'm just overreacting. Sorry about that...
My personal take: Whether I'm trans because of nature, nurture, or both, it makes no real difference to me. Sure, it'd be interesting if I underwent some kind of testing that determined it was rooted in genetic or biological factors, but at the end of the day, the reason I am trans ultimately matters little. It is what it is; I am what I am. I know my reality, I know that means I'm trans, and I know I'm doing what I need to in order to survive and thrive. Anything else is just secondary to that point.
We are born this way. I suppose one could choose to become transexual for whatever reason, in other words transition or live as a different gender from what they were assigned at birth. But doing so would be more of a lifestyle choice, embracing the LGBT community and culture then deciding to become a part of it. Transgender people don't choose to be transgender, they are born with the gender of their brain not matching the gender of their body and there has been increasingly more scientific research to prove that.
That being said, gender dysphoria is different for different people. The only common factor is that if you're transgender you've felt gender related dysphoria in some form before. A lot of people will say they're transgender and have never experienced gender dysphoria but that's because dysphoria can range from simply knowing that your physical or socially perceived gender doesn't match your mind and otherwise having no discomfort about that to major discomfort. It also affects people at different stages in life and can come and go. The term "dysphoria" basically means discomfort so people think that to be considered transgender you have to be uncomfortable with your gender but that's not always the case. It's possible to be comfortable with your body and/or social roles and still have the niggling little thought of "hey, something's not right here, I'm a man (or woman)." That's still dysphoria.
I also believe that cis people can experience moments of gender dysphoria but for them it's not persistent like it is for transgender people. For example, a woman may experience some gender dysphoria if she's being discriminated against because of her gender but it doesn't invade her psyche or cause her to question her gender and sense of self for a long period if time like it does for people who are transgender. It's sort of like the geometry rule that "a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't always a square."
Only you can tell if you're transgender or simply deciding to embrace a certain lifestyle and the community. If you have a therapist these would be great topics to bring up with them.
I find this all very interesting, especially your story, considering that it is so different from the 'normal' ones we typically hear.
I believe that we are born this way, it's woven into brains, and I think has a lot to do with science. Even if it takes a while for it to take form to come to the realization of being trans, I think it's always there. Contravene is right with the gender dysphoria. I like his take on the question.
Depending on the person, it can take decades for them to realize that they are trans, or maybe just several months, or they've always known. I think it just depends on each person, and how their brains are wired and function. Also, the way the person was raised can have something to do with it, if they were taught that LGBT+ people are bad, then they will probably push the thought of being trans to the back of their mind.
In conclusion, I do believe that people are born this way, but for some it may take a while for it to be realized, it's there, just waiting to be discovered.
Let me tell you one thing. I was rised in a very spiritual family and i believed that gender dysphoria is related to psychological death and guilt. It took me years to overcome death and be reborn and even though I'm fully alive i am still transgender. I'm a theological evidence that the gender identity has nothing to do with social factors but with the brain development. Just take a look at so many lgbt people out there who have built empires. Do you think that those empires are results of madness or a result of complete sanity and leading a constructive life. It's all about accepting yourself for who you are and get rid of the guilt.
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SpaceMutie, you're definitely not the only one with doubts on this subject. There are plenty of other trans people who showed little or no 'signs' as a child (myself included—I started a thread of my worries about not being legitimately trans here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183929.msg1633655.html#msg1633655 ) Many trans people only realise their true identity when they are middle-aged or older. So I would strongly advise you not to worry about it, and just think about what youngbuck said
Quote from: youngbuck on July 07, 2015, 11:24:49 PM
It is what it is; I am what I am. I know my reality, I know that means I'm trans, and I know I'm doing what I need to in order to survive and thrive. Anything else is just secondary to that point.
I read your post last night and I've been thinking about it. The "born this way" narrative certainly has been pushed by the LGBT community as a means of acceptance. Just as straight & cisgender people didn't decide that, neither did we.
But what about people, like yourself, who don't fit the "I knew when I was a kid" narrative? Does that mean you're NOT born that way? No. I still think it's something inate within us that tells us this. Just not everyone feels it early on. You're just as valid a trans man, and a man, as anyone else. For you the feelings and recognition came later.
So you may not fit the standard narrative, but that certainly doesn't mean this wasn't innately within you all along.
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I only put all the pieces together when I was 36 or 37, so don't worry friend. You're just as valid as the next trans dude.
There are differences in brains of men and women.
It was found in autopsies that brains of transgender people have the structures of the gender they identify with regardless if they had hrt.
The body and the brain develop at different times, so a mismatch for example by certain trigger substance levels is possible.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186458.msg1664590.html#msg1664590
Well some people knew from early on but thats not every person.
And some people even overdo gender roles until they find out its not who they are.
This all is a spectrum, experienced by individual people.
And many tg people are sensitive. Its possible in young age they felt it would be better to be quiet but find out later who they feel they are.
hugs
Yes, we are born this way. :D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJZ2WBHUAAAEOqJ.jpg)
Whilst I am all for exploring yourself and questioning whether we have basis in biology, psychology, endocrinology or even intelligence.
I found this an inspiritational piece that solved much for my own pattern of thought(n˘v˘•)¬
When you go in with an open mind, an open heart, don't ever feel bad about yourself or your quest for truth/self-acceptance.
I really don't think it matters. Why do we need to be born a certain way in order to be respected?
We ask the questions now so that the future has the answers :-*
It doesn't.
Yes, I'd say we're born this way. Only the individual knows if it's their choice to be trans* or even they were just born into that society of LGBT.
Of course we are born this way. If our gender identities are chosen, then who in the world would ever want to choose being transgender?
Yes, sign me up for ridicule, rejection, unemployment, having to constantly watch my back, not to mention medical bills, electrolysis, therapy, surgeries, legal bills and endless name change hassles.
If one can be "made" to be transgender, then why is it that conversion therapy doesn't ever work? You'd think that if you could flip the switch once, you should be able to flip it back.
News flash- there is no switch!
Lady Gaga says we are so it must be true :P
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really matter, whether we were born like this or through environmental/ social factors. My parents had a rough divorce when I was a kid and who knows maybe some of that influenced my gender identity. Although I'm one of those people who knew from as early as I can remember that something was "wrong" that I was "supposed to be a boy". But there's lots of folks who don't realize it till later and that's just fine.
My brother likes to joke that there's somethin funny in the water... I'm ftm, my brother is gay, and our neighbors in the house we grew up in had a daughter who is a lesbian and her father came out as MTF... Lol what are the odds :laugh:
Quote from: AeroZeppelin92 on July 09, 2015, 01:18:48 AM
Lady Gaga says we are so it must be true :P
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really matter, whether we were born like this or through environmental/ social factors. My parents had a rough divorce when I was a kid and who knows maybe some of that influenced my gender identity. Although I'm one of those people who knew from as early as I can remember that something was "wrong" that I was "supposed to be a boy". But there's lots of folks who don't realize it till later and that's just fine.
My brother likes to joke that there's somethin funny in the water... I'm ftm, my brother is gay, and our neighbors in the house we grew up in had a daughter who is a lesbian and her father came out as MTF... Lol what are the odds :laugh:
I think your local government must really be pushing the gay agenda.... Damn liberal's with their social experiments :P :laugh:
We may not have been born transgender, but we were born with the capacity to become transgender.
Perhaps this is true of everyone.
Just like other forms of genetic expression, ->-bleeped-<- may appear to a lesser or greater degree in different people at different times, expressed due to a variety of pressures.
I'm MtF and my only sibling is FtM. If that's not proof that it's genetic, IDK what is.
SpaceMutie,
Questioning is good. Being unsure and curious are the only things that are normal to humans. Without putting questions into action there is no science. Without out it, there is no choice of religion. Questioning makes our beliefs and proofs more solid. It is not easy and sometimes uncomfortable. It is those who have all the answers with no questions that should be scrutinized as unnatural.
I did not know as a child. I did not put it together till much later. That does not make me any more or less authentic. It was only through nearly mentally crashing, that led me to therapy. Even going there, I had a different thought in mind. However, going back in memory and many things in my life that always struck me as a little odd, I came to the conclusion. I would suggest that while I was not the model, normal child, I followed the path others expected and did okay.
Realization and starting to follow my "true path" has not made my life sunshine and roses. I do still hit "the wall". I have some dark moments of questioning myself, wondering if I over think it too. However, I can now be happy even if I am having a moment that sucks. I proceed in a happier, more content way(happiness not being a destination, but how you travel). At first, when exploring, I was trying to find where I fit in. Not truly cis, not really a cross dresser, not gay... I saw what was the typical narrative of transgender and dysphoria and was upset because I did not fit there either. I read an article on line called, "That was dysphoria?" I suddenly realized that dysphoria comes in many descriptions(probably as many as there are people with it). That led me to go back and find all the memories, physical examples, and feelings as well as the depression symptoms.
Sorry for the brief biography. I am just saying that while I did not always recognize it, it was always there. I cannot speak for you or anyone else. That is why I use my own experience for examples.
Don't know if that helps or is too long.
With warm thoughts,
Joanna
I personally wasn't born transgender. My condition mainly had to do with living (incorrect) puberty because that was the thing that I NEVER wanted as long as I can remember myself. Basically I wanted to be like how Andy Milonakis is.
While it's true I never identified as female, I didn't care for gender differences if my body wasn't physically affected. So, I would instead be considered genderless instead of trans.
I think the truth is nobody knows but it doesn't matter. Same for cispeople.
Most of us here live in a culture that believes in biological determinism, which has manifested over the history of the US as racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all kinds of other problems. The tendency to want to bolster a position with an appeal to biological determinism makes sense, but I don't see it serving the whole trans community very well. And frankly I think it's an error.
In the first place 'nurture' /= 'elective.' We tend to see anything genetic as more 'pure' and this seeking of purity is itself very damaging to our society.
The more rich transpeople with privilege step into the spotlight to claim that male and female brains exist, etc, the more I have to wonder whether they aren't selling out nonbinary, genderfluid, and other genderqueer people to obtain a piece of double edged and restrictive legitimacy. What of people who are already worried they aren't trans enough? Will they stay closeted because they don't feel like they fit the deterministic model of masculinity or femininity? Or will they contort themselves into normative behaviors that are oppressive to themselves and others?
Anyway. Like I said, nobody knows for sure. The important thing is that it's not relevant to whether who we are is legitimate, and it's a sign of oppression that only transpeople have to think about this.
Quote from: CaptainAFAB on July 09, 2015, 10:22:34 AM
I think the truth is nobody knows but it doesn't matter. Same for cispeople.
Most of us here live in a culture that believes in biological determinism, which has manifested over the history of the US as racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all kinds of other problems. The tendency to want to bolster a position with an appeal to biological determinism makes sense, but I don't see it serving the whole trans community very well. And frankly I think it's an error.
In the first place 'nurture' /= 'elective.' We tend to see anything genetic as more 'pure' and this seeking of purity is itself very damaging to our society.
The more rich transpeople with privilege step into the spotlight to claim that male and female brains exist, etc, the more I have to wonder whether they aren't selling out nonbinary, genderfluid, and other genderqueer people to obtain a piece of double edged and restrictive legitimacy. What of people who are already worried they aren't trans enough? Will they stay closeted because they don't feel like they fit the deterministic model of masculinity or femininity? Or will they contort themselves into normative behaviors that are oppressive to themselves and others?
Anyway. Like I said, nobody knows for sure. The important thing is that it's not relevant to whether who we are is legitimate, and it's a sign of oppression that only transpeople have to think about this.
Wow... that was probably the most reasonable, non-biased, comprehensive answer I've ever gotten about my problems. You, my friend, are awesome. I don't even know what to say, because your answer makes so much sense. Thank you, and thanks to everyone else for replying. I was almost too nervous to look at this thread because I thought I would get backlash, but I'm really glad that I did.
Quote from: CaptainAFAB on July 09, 2015, 10:22:34 AM
I think the truth is nobody knows but it doesn't matter. Same for cispeople.
Most of us here live in a culture that believes in biological determinism, which has manifested over the history of the US as racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all kinds of other problems. The tendency to want to bolster a position with an appeal to biological determinism makes sense, but I don't see it serving the whole trans community very well. And frankly I think it's an error.
In the first place 'nurture' /= 'elective.' We tend to see anything genetic as more 'pure' and this seeking of purity is itself very damaging to our society.
The more rich transpeople with privilege step into the spotlight to claim that male and female brains exist, etc, the more I have to wonder whether they aren't selling out nonbinary, genderfluid, and other genderqueer people to obtain a piece of double edged and restrictive legitimacy. What of people who are already worried they aren't trans enough? Will they stay closeted because they don't feel like they fit the deterministic model of masculinity or femininity? Or will they contort themselves into normative behaviors that are oppressive to themselves and others?
Anyway. Like I said, nobody knows for sure. The important thing is that it's not relevant to whether who we are is legitimate, and it's a sign of oppression that only transpeople have to think about this.
Well in my opinion it is biological.
There are clear signs showing that
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186458.msg1664590.html#msg1664590
there are brain scans with active centers showing a match to the gender people identify with...
there are results from autopsies showing the same...
and imo its an explanation making a lot of sense because transgender people have been around in all cultures and times.
Concerning nonbinary people etc... well the brain is not binary. Its analogue, and there is a spectrum from male to female. Depending on development a spectrum from for example crossdressing to transsexual people is possible.
Imo the biological explanation shows:
-its probably not a phase
-its nobodys fault, neither the tg persons, nor the parents upbringing, nor the internet or whatever...
-imo its socially better acceptable than people choosing...
hugs
Quote from: CaptainAFAB on July 09, 2015, 10:22:34 AM
I think the truth is nobody knows but it doesn't matter. Same for cispeople.
Most of us here live in a culture that believes in biological determinism, which has manifested over the history of the US as racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all kinds of other problems. The tendency to want to bolster a position with an appeal to biological determinism makes sense, but I don't see it serving the whole trans community very well. And frankly I think it's an error.
In the first place 'nurture' /= 'elective.' We tend to see anything genetic as more 'pure' and this seeking of purity is itself very damaging to our society.
The more rich transpeople with privilege step into the spotlight to claim that male and female brains exist, etc, the more I have to wonder whether they aren't selling out nonbinary, genderfluid, and other genderqueer people to obtain a piece of double edged and restrictive legitimacy. What of people who are already worried they aren't trans enough? Will they stay closeted because they don't feel like they fit the deterministic model of masculinity or femininity? Or will they contort themselves into normative behaviors that are oppressive to themselves and others?
Anyway. Like I said, nobody knows for sure. The important thing is that it's not relevant to whether who we are is legitimate, and it's a sign of oppression that only transpeople have to think about this.
Thanks this is perfect. Just because trans identities may or may not be biological doesn't mean that they are les valid and less worthy of respect. It also doesn't mean we chose to be trans. I don't like the purely biological explanation of the trans experience, I also don't like the purely sociological explanation.
I wish that our existence didn't require an explanation. Why can't we exist as we are with out having to explain our selves to the world.
Quote from: StrykerXIII on July 09, 2015, 08:55:46 AM
I'm MtF and my only sibling is FtM. If that's not proof that it's genetic, IDK what is.
Unfortunately, it's not. The odds that you and your brother had the same environment is very high, so environmental reasons are just as possible. Mind you, that could be anything from in vitro to psychological environmental factors. I tend to think it's biological, that something or things made physical changes, but we have to remember, it's not an on/off switch. Any hard and fast dichotomy in any situation is almost certainly just a convenient short hand.
After all, we routinely do things that 2000 years ago would be considered raising the dead.
There's a lot of references to the biological status of being transgender (or cis). But the whole nature-nurture, choice versus biological status, in their either-or guise, are faulty arguments. I would ask, biological compared to what? Choice? But where do these "choices" come from -- are they not also biological?
In any case, there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-. No more so than trying to prove being a cis male/female in the same way. The brain is a highly complex and dynamic model-making machine, which has a plasticity capable of responding and changing to environmental influences. In numerous recent studies, the brain has been shown respond ('rewire') to environmental influences very rapidly. We don't know why nature pumps out so many diverse creatures, and for all we know, this diversity is what's keeping us all going (there are some interesting hypotheses related to this latter subject).
That said, I think a strong case can be made for nurturing influences playing a role (as part of a symbiotic nature-nurture process). To this end, I suspect that people are not necessarily born transgendered (though some may be), but are rather born with a capacity to respond to external pressures that then leads to ->-bleeped-<- (to varying degrees).
The biggest take away from this, is that we are procreating meat bags with a highly developed state of consciousness. Like every other organism on the planet, we are subject to natural selection. One of the differences that we have compared to other species is that we imbue natural phenomena with meaning, creating social 'norms' that nature is otherwise blind to. That is, to claim that one state of existence is more right, correct or natural than another is an erroneous position to take. Societies do it because contrived norms fit conveniently to models of human existence, be they economic, social or political.
At one time it was believed that you develop a male or female gender identity as a result of early childhood experiences, but there's now an abundance of evidence showing that theory to be wrong, and that gender identity is biological in nature - something that's built into the physical structure of your brain before birth. As with other aspects of sexual development, whether you get the male or female version depends on whether there's androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) present during the time your prenatal development is taking place, not on whether you have a Y chromosome or not.
Here's a list of some of the research:
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/one-stop-trans-brain-research-list/
There's also the fact that a lot of us seem to either have a known intersex condition, or show symptoms that are usually associated with being intersexed (e.g. "eunuchoid habitus", a type of body structure that's usually associated with intersex conditions). Additionally, a surprisingly high number of us who are aged over 40 have a known or suspected history of DES exposure (DES being an artificial estrogen that was widely used as a treatment for preventing miscarriages up until about 1980).
Quote from: SpaceMutie on July 07, 2015, 10:47:21 PM
There's something I've been hearing a lot recently, and it's been putting me on edge. Thanks to the gay marriage decision, a lot of very angry religious people have been going to war with a lot of very angry LGBTQIA people about anything: transgender people, gay people, etc. The argument is that each person, gay, straight, trans, or otherwise, is 'born that way'. I don't... really know what to think about that. When I was a little girl, I loved the quintessential 'girly' parts of my life. I played with dolls, I wore skirts and stockings, I absolutely loved My Little Pony and pink and glitter and dress-up. I couldn't have been more of my mother's perfect daughter. Unlike a lot of my peers, I wasn't already feeling that gender ache that I feel now. I never longed to be a man, I was still in that stage where 'boys were icky' and I couldn't talk to them without feeling grossed out.
That didn't change either. In 5th grade, a friend and I used to chase around this one boy in our class named Logan, and we considered ourselves deep enemies. I wasn't born thinking that I wanted to be a man. I didn't want that, not back then. So, when people say that, it makes me really, really nervous. If I say something, does that not make me a 'real' transman anymore? I feel what I am with all my heart, and I devote a lot of time to helping people with similar issues out. I didn't have gender dysphoria at a young age, and I barely have it now, though it does happen occasionally. I don't know if I'm even taking the saying right, because I've been too shy to ask people in case that they treated me like a lesser person for not being like them.
It still happens, and I don't know what to do about it. Maybe I'm just overreacting. Sorry about that...
Well, I didn't feel gender dysphoria until I was age 19. Starting at age 16, however, I did develop body image discontent, but it took a long time to attribute it to my gender. The years that preceded this, however, I experienced no discontent whatsoever. I was actually a buff young guy who excelled at sports. Yet I am a true woman, regardless of what anyone else wants to think.
Ally
I think we probably are born this way, whether its genes or hormone imbalance in the womb etc etc.
My only proof of this is
firstly: Children, a lot of kids know at a young age and havent been influenced by media or parents etc.
Secondly: History, Transgender is not a 20th/21st Century thing like some idiots believe, transgendered souls have been upon this earth for centuries. The Western world just refused to acknowledge these people. Asia, Native America & Africa all have works/pictures etc showing that Trans people were around. As trans existed centuries ago, that rules out any pollution, modern tech and electromagnetic radiation theories, GMC crops, pesticides, nuclear emmissions etc etc.
Thirdly: Brain, Because the brain knows it and the body doesnt. They used to shock trans people to "correct" their brains, yet it cannot be corrected in that way. The body has to alter to change the mind. I'm not sure at what stage the brain develops BUT it is ingrained into the brain or at least the potential to be transgender lies there. The best study I have seen (although not fully reliable due to the lack of trans people involved) showed that MtFs have pituatry glands (they start your puberty and control hormones/development) have the same size as a cis-female. FtMs have the same sized one as a cis-male.
Fourth: We know that consciously most of us would NOT choose to be transgender and would rather live a normal cis life. Its human nature to not want to stick out all the time. We and only we know that something doesnt feel right. The world thinks we are attention seekers and are deliberately trying to change the status quo, but its normal human instinct to coincide with the status quo, so long as it isnt against any instinctual morals.
Fifth: If we developed it in life, if it were for instance a flu. Then we would be cured of it, it would simply only pass. We would have grown out of it. It would have been a phase and yet it becomes a way of life - for most.
Sixth: Because the human body is adaptable. We do not know the human body very well. We still have to figure out what and how the brain properly functions, how it stores things. How the rest of your body stores memories -yes you read that right! The body stores memories just like the brain. In recent transplants people have reported the same suicidal feelings after taking someone elses heart (without knowing he was depressed). Having anothers face and suddenly twitching the same as they used to (again without knowing). The adaptation comes from animals being able to switch sexes, something that can be done on human gonads (only in labs ATM). If fishes/toads etc can change sex to save their species then why wouldnt the same be in mammals/humans - which we have now found proof of!
I personally like to think its a switch, moreso a dimmer switch. I think its built into many of us, some have it on really low and they never know its even on, its only a little sliver of light at the back of their minds. Some have it on full and no matter what they do they cant turn the damn thing off. And some have it switched off. It lies dormant until they turn 36 and then they are dazzled by its brightness.
I honestly dont think its an external force that made us like this. We all dont live in the same place, therefore we cant have all been exposed to the same external forces - unless there is one particular thing we all have in common (par the trans-ness) that cis-people and LGB persons dont have in common with us.
Gentle
Quote from: Echo Eve on July 10, 2015, 12:18:15 AM
There's a lot of references to the biological status of being transgender (or cis). But the whole nature-nurture, choice versus biological status, in their either-or guise, are faulty arguments. I would ask, biological compared to what? Choice? But where do these "choices" come from -- are they not also biological?
In any case, there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-. No more so than trying to prove being a cis male/female in the same way. The brain is a highly complex and dynamic model-making machine, which has a plasticity capable of responding and changing to environmental influences. In numerous recent studies, the brain has been shown respond ('rewire') to environmental influences very rapidly. We don't know why nature pumps out so many diverse creatures, and for all we know, this diversity is what's keeping us all going (there are some interesting hypotheses related to this latter subject).
That said, I think a strong case can be made for nurturing influences playing a role (as part of a symbiotic nature-nurture process). To this end, I suspect that people are not necessarily born transgendered (though some may be), but are rather born with a capacity to respond to external pressures that then leads to ->-bleeped-<- (to varying degrees).
The biggest take away from this, is that we are procreating meat bags with a highly developed state of consciousness. Like every other organism on the planet, we are subject to natural selection. One of the differences that we have compared to other species is that we imbue natural phenomena with meaning, creating social 'norms' that nature is otherwise blind to. That is, to claim that one state of existence is more right, correct or natural than another is an erroneous position to take. Societies do it because contrived norms fit conveniently to models of human existence, be they economic, social or political.
If it were merely a case of "nurture" people could successfully be nurtured back to identifying as their birth gender through conversion therapy. We all know that doesn't work and it's unethical which is why the practice of it was largely banned.
It's actually harmful
not to seek out a biological cause for being transgender. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to change their gender for social or personal reasons but often times people with other psychological issues; multiple personality disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, just to name a few, mistakenly think they're transgender. Not only does that damage the cis population's understanding of what it means to be trans but some of those people go on to transition then realize it was a mistake because they aren't transgender. If there were a known biological cause for being transgender it would open roads to more understanding, more medical care, and more mental health care. People would no longer be able to write it off as "Oh, you just
want to be this way." Like it or not, at this point, we do need the rest of society's validation because it's mainly cis gendered people who will be determining what sort of care we can have access too and other things.
Because of society there is a "nurture" aspect to being transgender, social roles and expectations exacerbate dysphoria for example, but it isn't the cause because if somewhere along the line we learned to be this way then we would also be able to unlearn it and relearn to identify as our birth gender. There is so much that points to the cause being that the brain doesn't recognize its physical gender and feels at odds with it. That's also why transgender people feel even more at odds with things like their gender roles and other societal expectations.
There are many things missing in the nurture theory. It states that being gay has to do with not feeling man enough. Apparently those people have been nurtured to believe they ain't men enough. If this was true than how on earth would a transwoman ever be a lesbian. A transwoman for sure doesn't feel like she is not woman enough and there are still transwomen lesbians and transmen that are gay. So obviously the sexual orientation has nothing to do with howmuch of a man or woman do you feel like, like stated in the old psychological books. This theory sounds very logical but practice has shown that the gender identity has nothing to do with the sexual orientation. Indeed many gay men have had totally normal brain development and they always were as manly as the other men but they still end up being gay. On the other hand the old psychological theory says that you become transman or a transwoman because of identification with a figure from the opposite sex. If you are born with a woman's brain, isn't it normal to see yourself as a woman and identify yourself with other women regardless of your genitals? Basically the early symptoms of gender dysphoria are stated as causes of the disorder. How on earth a symptom can causes disease?
After decades of practicing conversion therapy, there is no single evidence that it works. At least one person would have been cured. Obviously it has nothing to do with social factors but it is based in the brain development.
Quote from: Contravene on July 10, 2015, 01:12:11 PM
If it were merely a case of "nurture" people could successfully be nurtured back...
It's actually harmful not to seek out a biological cause for being transgender...
Because of society there is a "nurture" aspect to being transgender...
Puzzled as to why my post was quoted and misrepresented in this manner, as the response addresses conclusions that don't exist in my initial post.
Quote from: possessed on July 10, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
If you are born with a woman's brain, isn't it normal to see yourself as a woman and identify yourself with other women regardless of your genitals?
Or you're a man who identifies more with women, or
vice versa, but not trans.
Quote from: Echo Eve on July 11, 2015, 03:16:38 AM
Puzzled as to why my post was quoted and misrepresented in this manner, as the response addresses conclusions that don't exist in my initial post.
Eh, never mind. There's no need to be hostile about it. You stated why we shouldn't need to find a biological cause. I stated why we do. Rather simple.
Quote from: Echo Eve on July 10, 2015, 12:18:15 AM
In any case, there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-. No more so than trying to prove being a cis male/female in the same way. The brain is a highly complex and dynamic model-making machine, which has a plasticity capable of responding and changing to environmental influences. In numerous recent studies, the brain has been shown respond ('rewire') to environmental influences very rapidly. We don't know why nature pumps out so many diverse creatures, and for all we know, this diversity is what's keeping us all going (there are some interesting hypotheses related to this latter subject).
That said, I think a strong case can be made for nurturing influences playing a role (as part of a symbiotic nature-nurture process). To this end, I suspect that people are not necessarily born transgendered (though some may be), but are rather born with a capacity to respond to external pressures that then leads to ->-bleeped-<- (to varying degrees).
Well there are parts of the brain that are relatively fixed, and there are parts that are not.
For example there is white matter which can easily develop over time.
Of course there are parts that can take over if other parts fail. And there is more repairing capacity than people would be told many years ago.
There are brain scans saying exactly that. There is a part that was compared to the gender people identify with and it was a match.
And there is white matter which might develop later during life, so no exact answer was possible there.
hugs
Quote from: Contravene on July 11, 2015, 05:42:58 AM
No need to be hostile about it.
You stated why we shouldn't need to find a biological cause.
I wasn't hostile.
I stated no such thing.
Coming in at the tail end of this thread, but I just wanted to point this out-
Saying there are male and female parts of the brain doesn't ignore gender fluid people at all. If there are X number of gendered parts of the brain and X components of what leads to one vs the other, there is no reason someone couldn't have some of them and not the others, or even partial development of key pieces.
Also, everything in our heads is biological. You can't get outside of it unless you are attributing something spiritual or magical to why someone is transgender.
There is room for every identity even as science allows us to understand more about the transgender brain.
Some people like broccoli, others don't. Are we born this way?
There are those who enjoy listening to "classical" music, and those who don't. Are we born this way?
We may possess the greatness of heart to live and let live, or the narrowmindedness that makes us want to impose our views upon others. Are we born this way?
Fear in all its forms can control us for all of our lifetimes, or we can strive to better ourselves and this world. Are we born this way?
Are we?
Also the christian view of the things doesn't explain the transsexuality at all. They say it is all result of sin. Translating the sin in practice means that it all comes from guilt. Getting yourself free of guilt doesn't promote cure for transsexuality but it promotes self acceptance. So obviously sin (guilt) causes feelings of low self esteem but not transsexuality or gayness. So i only accept the views of modern psychology and science that the only approach with a transsexual person should be self acceptance therapy as the obly beneficial form of therapy.
Sent from my LG-H220 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Echo Eve on July 10, 2015, 12:18:15 AM
In any case, there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-.
Let me be more precise then.
You stated "there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-."
I stated why there was a point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-.
I'm not sure if I can break it down further for you, but I can trying you want.
Quote from: Contravene on July 11, 2015, 05:00:37 PM
Let me be more precise then.
You stated "there's little point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-."
I stated why there was a point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<-.
I'm not sure if I can break it down further for you, but I can trying you want.
Before being rude again, try comprehending what I actually wrote in my initial post, then maybe you'll be better equipped to address my overall conclusions. If you're too intellectually lazy to grant me that small request, don't bother responding.
Quote from: Echo Eve on July 11, 2015, 08:04:30 PM
Before being rude again, try comprehending what I actually wrote in my initial post, then maybe you'll be better equipped to address my overall conclusions. If you're too intellectually lazy to grant me that small request, don't bother responding.
I wasn't being rude. You were hostile from the beginning though I'm not sure why. Several people have replied to your comment with thoughts similar to mine.
Your initial post was so convoluted because you were trying way too hard to use intelligent jargon. I'm not sure you even understand the point you were attempting to make.
There, now you can say I was being rude.
If you're going to attempt to act like a troll again I won't bother to indulge you by responding. I'll also contact a moderator if I have to. If you would like to sensibly discuss the point you were attempting to make and try to clarify it instead of being immature because your point was seemingly proven wrong then I would be happy to discuss it in a civilized manner. I'm a nice, quiet guy. I don't like dealing with people who try to get me riled up.
Quote from: Contravene on July 11, 2015, 08:43:12 PM
I wasn't being rude. You were hostile from the beginning though I'm not sure why. Several people have replied to your comment with thoughts similar to mine.
Your initial post was so convoluted because you were trying way too hard to use intelligent jargon. I'm not sure you even understand the point you were attempting to make.
There, now you can say I was being rude.
If you're going to attempt to act like a troll again I won't bother to indulge you by responding. I'll also contact a moderator if I have to. If you would like to sensibly discuss the point you were attempting to make and try to clarify it instead of being immature because your point was seemingly proven wrong then I would be happy to discuss it in a civilized manner. I'm a nice, quiet guy. I don't like dealing with people who try to get me riled up.
Unlike your comments, my initial response to you could not be, by any standard, considered rude (and, btw, I was very conscious of making sure that it would not be considered as such).
I could not care less whether you think you are right or wrong, but I do care when people misrepresent my ideas and opinions -- which is exactly what you did (either out of malice or ignorance, I don't care which).
If you really were a nice guy and were genuinely interested in yet could not understand my comment, you would, like any sane person, just ask me what I meant. Otherwise it beggars belief why anyone would respond to a post they consider convoluted and jargon riddled. For this reason, coupled with your threats and insults, I question your motives.
:police:
Time out, folks.
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