I think Caitlyn's ESPY speech triggered comments that suggest we may be missing something important to many of us about "having a voice." I am one of those who have had access and training with a speech pathologist. What i learned about technique was valuable. What I learned about my identity was even more important.
I have feminized my voice (slightly) to a degree that I am comfortable. That comfort level includes recognition that I spent 60+ years creating my voice. I was not dysphoric about my voice and yes, it may get me clocked more often. Being a late in life transitioner I found that being passable was not my main goal. A voice is far more than pitch, tone or range, it includes elements of our character and maybe even traces of an accent from where we lived.
Maybe some girls give up voice training because it is hard to change but I accept my voice even tho it is harder to pass. It is simply part of being and accepting my unique self. Early on I too encountered people who may have passed well except for their voice and wondered why they didn't work on it more. That was some of my own stereotypes and maybe some internalized transphobia at work. I now understand that some of us are OK with our voice even if it may seem too "obvious" to others.
There are many here who have shared a view that being passable and striving for binary perfection are overrated. We note most choose to wear what they want and we assume that is not because you are too lazy to wear dresses and use make up. ?? I agree with a personal style and have found my comfort level includes retention for much of my authentic voice. I found when I wore breast forms (don't need em anymore;-) and worked too hard to be passable that I again felt "fake." I had a lifetime of being a fake man and don't need to feel like a fake woman with another straight jacket that doesn't fit.
I therefore accept that I will be read, clocked or more obviously seen as a trans person. I feel better about that all the time and am happy to help educate others about diversity--even within the trans world. This post is not intended to be a challenge so much as sharing a different perspective. Certainly people starting at an earlier age or with different goals will have different and OK views about having or creating a voice.
Caitlyns voice may not be everyones idea of perfect but it is real, she uses it for social benefit and as Devlyn says it is the words that count.
hiya ladies and gents
It saddens me that we would critical of anyone when not asked,
I did not transition because I wanted a female voice or looks. I transitioned to be the female that I am.
yes I will continue to work on my voice and my appearance, for me though, not for you.
please remember we are on a very slippery slope she Caitlyn has a chance to send a message globally, that I am grateful I do not have, and I have total respect for having the strength to do it. be assured I would have disappeared and lived very comfortable. she is taking a high road on her journey and deserves my respect for being there
Why in the world would anyone expect Caitlyn to modify her voice?
She's not going stealth, right? She's not likely to be concerned about passing either - nowadays, she's probably got a more recognizable face than the Queen of England.
*shakes head*
When I began transition last winter I hadn't known about the voice therapy or surgery. I got very excited about the surgery because I had been dysphoric about my voice since "the change". I am glad now that I didn't have the money to set the medical wheels in motion. I may still head that way because I need my adam's apple gone, and that may change my voice too. I am fond of singing and performance too and worry about losing my voice, I would be very unhappy speaking with a whisper. I realize errors are rare with the new procedures but it is enough to make me sit back, wait and think. I have plenty of time, knock on wood!
I also just released the chains on my speech patterns. That and the softening of my voice that has come with hrt have helped a ton. I have also learned to speak from my neck not my chest. I am more comfortable with it now and have passed here and there. As my Mom said unprompted, I sound like a woman in her late 30's who used to smoke and drink a lot. And that is literally what I am! I also have reached a point where I realized I didn't care if I ever pass. When I do that's nice but I am fine with being trans so I don't care if folks are aware of that. In fact I am more than a bit proud of being a trans woman. So long as folks don't treat me like a man but respect my humanity! I have to say that I was thrilled to hear Ms. Jenner's voice! That being said I am proud of those women who want to change their voices more thoroughly through whatever means suit them. That takes courage too!
There is no one way to be trans and I respect everyone's choices as they relate to them.
I was pretty shocked that people were critical of her voice in that thread (if it's the one I think you're referring to). I loved that she stood up and proudly delivered her messge without buckling to fear that her transness is visible (or in this cause audible, I suppose).
I found it interesting to note that she is concerned with her voice: http://caitlynjenner.com/2015/07/espys/
QuoteI left the festivities early so that I could actually watch the ESPYs because it's three hours delayed here in California. It was a little difficult for me to watch myself. While I felt like I looked great and that the gown looked fabulous, I still have a voice issue. It's not quite right compared to my feminine appearance. That bothers me a little bit. However, I hope that people don't listen to the pitch of my voice, but listen to what I have to say. That's important to me.
I watched her speech the other day and at first I was surprised by her voice (I haven't watched the other interview yet, sometimes immersing myself in trans-related topics for too long makes my dysphoria flare up). But then I liked that she didn't try to change her voice too much. Women and people in general come in all different shapes, sizes, colors, genders and what have you so there shouldn't be anything wrong or odd about a woman having a deeper voice. Everyone is a unique variation of the human species, transgender people are no different. I'm not sure if that's the statement she was trying to make but that's what I took away from it.
To be honest, I didn't notice her voice that much. I was too moved by the video and then her speech. I think in that situation, it was probably just easier speaking naturally and not trying to "pass."
Just my opinion. I thought it was great overall.
Ella
I'm aware I may be the odd one out , but ever since Caitlyn got in the public eye speaking in her lower voice range , I stopped totally worrying about how people received my voice. I think I can do pretty good ,but after her award acceptance I have a whole less worry about it.
Yes, I called a voice coach yesterday to setup appointment.
Is my voice really bad? View/Listen at: youtube.com/watch?v=aTMvZjTnL6M
Thank you,
Anne
My concern about my voice wasn't the result of Caitlyn Jenner and it started a bit before that. My refrigerator failed and I purchased a new one from Sears. I was having some issues with the water dispenser/ice maker and needed a question answered that wasn't in the manual so I called up product support. They dropped the line I was on and gave me the wrong answer resulting in 5 calls to get the information I needed. After being Sired on each one of them, for the first time in 35 years I took a good hard look at my voice using tools and information that wasn't available to me before discovering how my voice destroyed my image whenever I opened my mouth. I examined therapy and what I had to work with and my options were to live with Sir or get voice surgery. My new sexuality means I need to start moving around more in society and I would like to do that as a woman. As the result I am sitting here in silence after voice surgery waiting for my voice to heal enough that I can start using it.
This is what brought me to Susan's in the first place and once here I learned there was still a place where I could help others and that is why I remain here.
One thing bothers me about Caitlyn is that as Bruce, her voice wasn't really all that low and shouldn't be that hard to raise in therapy. I suspect there may be more to this story that we may never hear about.
I don't think people should just give up on their voice, just because a celebrity doesn't have a perfect voice. I didn't train my voice for other people; I did it for myself, because I am female, and I wanted to have a female voice.
My voice has always made me cringe (and still does). I can't really say that Caitlyn has influenced me one way or the other.
It's great to feel comfortable in your presentation however and to the extent you need to do it. I just think maybe turning down the pressure a little helps.
My voice is not an issue for anyone except me.
I didn't like my old voice. I sounded like a man. I am not a man. That's why I got voice surgery.
It's also not about going stealth. It's about not worrying about people misgendering you and it's also about not having to constantly correct people. It's also about first impressions. If someone heard my old voice they would forever place me in that male box even if they consciously try to say "ma'am" and "miss." I will forever be a man in their eyes.
So enough was enough for me. That is why my decision for voice surgery and training to follow was a very easy one.
As for Caitlyn Jenner, she only reinforced that the voice is important. Yes, she looks gorgeous but the voice totally ruined it for me. Sorry, but I just can't see a beautiful woman with such a masculine voice and what appears to be no effort whatsoever to fix it. It isn't just pitch. There are women with deep voices, but they sound feminine. No prosody whatsoever. I don't even think she was trying.
And yes, it's cool if you want to be like that, but I don't, and the world won't automatically treat you like a woman if you don't sound like one.
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 20, 2015, 07:04:04 PM
Why in the world would anyone expect Caitlyn to modify her voice?
She's not going stealth, right? She's not likely to be concerned about passing either - nowadays, she's probably got a more recognizable face than the Queen of England.
*shakes head*
Why does it have to be about stealth?
She obviously got FFS, BA and body contouring. All of those things, FFS especially, are done by people going stealth. But not exclusively. Yet, as you said, she's not stealth and never going to be.
There has to be another reason. Maybe her trach shave made it difficult or impossible to get voice surgery. Maybe she tried training and gave up. Or maybe she just thinks the world will accept her as-is.
:police:
Lets please keep this on topic and civil. Thanks
Mariah
Yeah, I am another who thinks that she's never going to be able to present herself to the world as "not a trans woman," not with a transition as public and documented (and documentary-ied) as hers is. Whether that's good or bad is for her to judge, as is her voice entirely up to her own choice. If she's unhappy with it, as that quote from her implies, then she should work on it... but ONLY if she herself cares. The singer Laura Jane Grace consciously chose to keep singing with her original voice, so this isn't even the first recent case of a very out, famous trans woman opting not to change her voice. :)
As for me, I cared about my voice so I changed it. But I don't really see what that has to do with her, any more than her getting FFS means I should want to. Different women, different choices, just like cis women are allowed.
Quote from: iKate on July 21, 2015, 02:14:35 PM
Why does it have to be about stealth?
For me, voice is part of the gender. I just want my voice to be feminine in every way.
But since my female voice is still work in progress, for an important speech I'd still go with the voice I know best. That is, my male voice. So even if Caitlyn wished she could sound more feminine, she could have had the same reason to stick with what is mastered yet atm.
On the other hand, I have met a number of transwomen who just don't care to adapt their voices to sound like stereotypical cis women. They are already happy and accepted the way they are. They don't want to change the way their voices sound.
My voice has been a problem for me for a while. I have been trying to train it but it's so...inconsistent. I'll continue trying but I think surgery's the route I'll need to take to be completely happy with it.
To be absolutely honest and to take my own experiences out of the collective...I need my voice to be permanently different. It still sounds too deep to me and bums me out all the time. I just tend to try to make the best of bad situations and before this past year spent decades avoiding doctors. I suppose there is some of that restraining me. I did just ask my father for a loan for surgery. I can't stand that I can slip into the baritone. Things are better now, my Mom didn't have to ask if she was talking with me or my brother when I called on her birthday. But it is still too low for me.
Basically I am going to keep working on it on my own until I can afford to undo the testosterone damage surgically.
Quote from: Cheska on July 21, 2015, 02:37:37 PM
My voice has been a problem for me for a while. I have been trying to train it but it's so...inconsistent. I'll continue trying but I think surgery's the route I'll need to take to be completely happy with it.
Quote from: Kellam on July 21, 2015, 03:54:09 PM
To be absolutely honest and to take my own experiences out of the collective...I need my voice to be permanently different. It still sounds too deep to me and bums me out all the time. I just tend to try to make the best of bad situations and before this past year spent decades avoiding doctors. I suppose there is some of that restraining me. I did just ask my father for a loan for surgery. I can't stand that I can slip into the baritone. Things are better now, my Mom didn't have to ask if she was talking with me or my brother when I called on her birthday. But it is still too low for me.
Basically I am going to keep working on it on my own until I can afford to undo the testosterone damage surgically.
Surgical voices require being able to master the mouth voice. If you can't you should consider some speech therapy before making a big investment in a voice that isn't going to work. I have been using the mouth voice for so long that it is locked into place and I have to force my self to drop back to the male range. If you would like additional information, let me know and I will be happy to work with you.
Thanks Dena. I have been working on that and it is a big part of comments from my friends and family. A few of them have said I sound way more feminine now. I will keep at it too. It just isn't enough for me. Sometimes when I am singing I slip low. Songs that I have known for decades. Like I said I am thinking about the whole thing and won't consider aproaching surgery for a good long while.
SRS comes first and thankfully that is covered by my insurance. I am just over half a year from meeting their prerequisite.
I pass ok for now voice wise and with more work that will be more consistent. My decisions are not based on passing or not, it is all about how I feel. But thank you so much for the words of encouragement!
No. My voice just is what it is and will likely always be. I do sound like a woman these days, even if that woman is Bea Arthur.
I still shop at all the stores and eat at the same restaurants that I went to before, so I'm guessing a lot of people out there know what's up with me. I really do have better things to worry about than whether people think I'm trans or not. I just assume they all know and I go about my day.
For me it hasn't changed how I see it. I don't pay much attention to celebrities tbh, they are just other people that happen to be famous :P. Though for me I really want my voice to match me, if that makes any sense. Like it's not about how other see/hear me, it's about me. The more in harmony I feel with myself the better, and having a male or close to male voice just doesn't do it for me.
So much fuss about Caitlyn ...
I have heard some trans people say, 'Oh, I can't stand Jenner, it's all her fault that I am getting clocked' ... and so on.
What nonsense. Don't underestimate others' powers of perception! There is no universal standard of 'passing'. What 'passes' to one person, may not to another!
All Jenner has done is put the trans question on the table. I can't possibly speak for her motives, as I don't have a window into her mind, but effectively all she has done is put it out there.
I am glad for the boost of trans awareness. I am grateful that people care enough, and are interested enough, to have the guts to ask me questions. It makes me feel integrated - not cast out.
Jenner has not ruined my life at all!
My voice is what it is, and it's part of me.. I had several sessions with a speech therapist because I didn't think it was feminine at all.. She showed me that it was, despite what I thought. Do I have a pitch that most of you would consider feminine? No.. But I learnt that pitch wasn't as important as a bunch of other factors - things I had going on long before I transitioned. So I'll stick with my deeper woman's voice, thanks.
If anything, Jenner's voice has reinforced the decision I made to work hard at feminizing my voice. It comes down to the fact that a mis-matched voice and presentation too easily weirds-out or offends the general public. Purely from a practical standpoint, as I work in retail customer service I can't afford to creep-out my customers. My employer has been making strong efforts to support my transition but I suspect this would have had limits if the customers started complaining about me.
My voice was never strongly masculine or deep, perhaps kinda andro, but it definitely didn't fit my feminine presentation going through transition. I never liked my old voice so some of the speech therapy was for my own comfort. When I'm at work I find that sometimes I've been talking so much that my voice slips a bit because it gets tired and I still have trouble with volume at times. I pass to most customers now as a result of FFS and the freedom my presentation gives me to use a strongly female voice and mannerisms. I can still revert to my old voice with some effort but I never use it publicly and only try it occasionally for comparison with where I am now. If I do it while looking in a mirror it creeps me out, so I fully understand why it bothers other people if they witness such a thing.
I listened to the award speech with some delay and I had previously also caught some glimpses of critical "opinions" as to Jenner's voice and deliberately did not read them, because I try to stay away from those who tend to impose heavily binary views on everyone.
I kept watching and listening, and then I realised that if I was to disconnect everything I know about Caitlyn (which is not possible) and just listen to that speech, knowing that it is being delivered by "some" woman, I would totally buy. I would think that this is a woman of significant age, probably she has smoked a lot during her life, but it was female leaning voice, nevertheless. So, the rest does not really matter, but, of course, we know that it was Caitlyn who spoke, we know her history, trans-ness and the rest just goes on. So, why cant we leave her alone? She has achieved more than most her critics have ever done and most probably ever will (when taken all together btw)? Criticising her looks or voice almost equals the issue she referred to in her speech - and she said, go ahead, she can take it... so :).
As regards my own voice, I am content that it does not clock me immediately once I open my mouth. I know, it is not female, but it not really male either - some female friends have said that I sound like them when they wake up (except I keep going that way for the rest of the day). So, as long as it does its job, it is all fine by me.
I'm only thinking to change it because I don't want people to hurt me or give me weird looks because of it.
I don't give a damn about my voice and honnestly I don't give a damn about my face either. Clothes are always restricted to what you can wear without being ridiculous, and this rule is true for everyone, be it cis or trans. I don't give a damn about them.
I only want my body back. Everything else is basically society being mean to me. ^-^