Please forgive my ignorance on this subject. I hope I don't offend anybody. I don't even really know what hormones are and what their role is in the body.
I was wondering how hormones work. When someone is transitioning, MTF for example, they take female hormones to be and feel more female. Wouldn't the opposite be true with male hormones? I mean, if you took male hormones, wouldn't that make you feel more male, hence match your physical body? That sounds like a better solution to me. It would avoid all the problems of acceptance with family, friends and society in general.
Please feel free to educate me on my lack of knowledge on this subject.
A quick note about myself. I'm 43 MTF but I have not even yet considered transition. I'm still trying to come to grips with what is happening in my head.
Jayne
Taking males hormones won't make a CIS male feel anymore manly. It might make him strong which might make him feel for manly, but that is it. For someone who is trans and is going from Male to Female taking testosterone would likely cause issues like depression to worsen. I know as we were adjusting my dosages tell we got the mix the ENdo wanted at one point the estrogen level dropped to much and it started to cause the depression to role back in. In other words , it can make an MtF feel manly when she isn't in the first place. Hugs
Mariah
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/DOH-Assets/pdf/doh-transgender-experiences.pdf
Before birth, the body and the brain develop at different times.
There are differences in brains in men and women, triggered by certain substance levels.
So a mismatch between brain and body is possible.
People feel this.
Quite a few mtf people feel better with the hormonal influence of estrogen and a receding hormonal influence of testo.
A higher testo level does not help. People do not feel better then.
Some people try to do this socially, overdoing gender roles like trying to be extra male, until they find out its not them.
If in doubt its possible to start out with a low hormone dose and see how it makes you feel.
Usually bioidentical estrogen is given in the form of oral/sublingual pills to lessen effects on the liver, patches, gels, implants or injections.
And an anti androgen.
There is one form of hrt with implants and injections where the estro levels are driven well into the female range and the t levels are driven down into the female range as well, without anti androgen.
Quite a few people add bioidentical progesterone, which might help with mood, even out some effects of estro, might help with breast growth and have some antiandrogen effects. Its available as capsules, gel or implants.
Concerning hormones, they have also an influence on the body.
Some secondary sex attributes might be developed, and for example the skin can become softer and fat a bit more distributed to a more female pattern.
I thought testosterone would help me a couple times over the past 4-5 years and even had my levels checked twice before considering the other side of the coin. I wanted to be "more manly" and grow bigger muscles and be strong. I thought it would help with my sex drive. I thought it would help me be the man I was supposed to be because presumably I had low testosterone and that was my problem.
As it turns out, my testosterone levels were in the 900+ range, well above the "normal" baseline, so the doctors would not prescribe me testosterone supplements. I didn't understand how I could have such high testosterone and yet be so diminutive in the frame and muscle department, and my sex drive was declining as well.
It wasn't until over a year later that I discovered I was transsexual. After only two months of "low dose" hormones my testosterone level has plummeted and my estrogen levels are in the cis-female range. It didn't take much of a dose at all to get my body in balance, and I couldn't be happier. The prospect of my feminizing body has me so much more excited than going the other way and trying to be more masculine.
Much of your brain development, particularly the part that determines gender identity is developed before you were born.
Exogenous hormones after birth can't "fix" that. Believe me, they have tried.
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 18, 2015, 05:15:18 PM
I was wondering how hormones work. When someone is transitioning, MTF for example, they take female hormones to be and feel more female. Wouldn't the opposite be true with male hormones? I mean, if you took male hormones, wouldn't that make you feel more male, hence match your physical body? That sounds like a better solution to me. It would avoid all the problems of acceptance with family, friends and society in general.
Basically, the way hormones work is that they bind to and activate a receptor molecule, and the combined hormone/receptor complex is then transported into the cell's nucleus, where it acts as a kind of "master switch" for turning on particular sets of genes. The two main types of hormones we're interested in are estrogens and androgens. Estrogens (the main one being estradiol) switch on the genes responsible for the day to day running of a female body, whereas androgens (testosterone and DHT) switch on an equivalent set of genes, except the male version of them. Basically, estradiol tells the cells throughout your body that they're part of a female body, and to do the female version of all the things they do, whereas testosterone tells the cells throughout your body that they're part of a male body and to do the same sort of things, except the male version of them. Whether you have a Y chromosome or not doesn't make any difference at all except in your germ cells (testicles or ovaries), where it drives the formation of testicular tissue. All the other cells throughout your body are effectively gender neutral, and take their cue as to whether to act male or female from whatever hormones are present.
That's what happens in adulthood. In an unborn baby, things work slightly differently. Again, hormones are what tells the cells throughout your body whether they're part of a male or female body, except rather than controlling just the day to day running of that body, they're directing all the sex-specific growth and development that's taking place. As an adult, changes to your hormones have mainly temporary effects, whereas in an unborn baby, the effects are permanent.
For example, just by injecting pregnant lab animals with testosterone, you can cause all their female fetuses to develop as if they were male, and if you start early enough in the pregnancy, you can produce genetically female babies who look just like males. By waiting until a bit later in the pregnancy, you can also produce female animals that look like normal females, except their behaviour is male. As adults, they'll attempt to mate with other females and otherwise behave like they were male, despite having a female body.
That's an important clue as to how ->-bleeped-<- can arise. Basically, all it needs is for something to go wrong with your hormones during your prenatal development, except after the critical period for genital development has finished (which, in humans, is the first trimester). Brain development is ongoing throughout the pregnancy, so you can have had substantial cross-sex brain development take place, even though you look no different from someone else of your biological sex. If this has happened to you, the gender differences are built into the actual structure of your brain, and, as an adult, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change what's there. You can alter your body to better fit in with how you identify though, and take hormones that are a better match for the needs of your brain than the ones your body is producing.
Another difference between adults and unborn babies in the way hormones act, is that, in adults, estradiol needs to be there in order to get your cells behaving in a female way. In an unborn baby, high levels of testosterone will cause male development, but if the testosterone isn't there, a fetus will develop as female by default. The fetus doesn't need ovaries and to be producing estradiol in order to develop as female. If there is testosterone present and able to do its job, development occurs as male, otherwise it occurs as female instead. This is something that's been shown in numerous experiments on animals, and there's a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which proves the same applies in human beings too. This is quite important for understanding how MTF ->-bleeped-<- arises. Basically, all it needs is for something to happen to suppress your testosterone production during the second and/or third trimester, for instance exposure to a hormone or other chemical that interferes with testosterone production. It doesn't necessarily have to involve an estrogen.
Something I've been trying to point out to people for a while now, is that, for decades, doctors have been giving pregnant women hormones and other drugs that can interfere with testosterone production, as part of treatment for preventing miscarriages and for various other medical reasons. In the 1960s and 70s, large numbers of pregnant women were also given androgenizing progestins, hormones that turned out to be able to mimic the effects of testosterone in female fetuses. I think it must certainly be an important cause of ->-bleeped-<-, and may well be the main thing causing it.
I think you're misinterpereting what some people say about how HRT makes them "feel" more female.
They don't mean it changes their identity to feel more female. They mean it changes their moods and the overall "feel" of their brain chemistry such that it more closely matches how they feel their brain is supposed to feel.
Basically, hormones play a part in how your brain reacts to things. Testosterone increases aggressiveness, sex drive, and also masculinizes the body such that it has more body hair, bigger muscles, secretes male pheremones, and many other things.
To a trans person, those things that testosterone makes the mind feel and the body feel feel funadmentally wrong to us. They are in conflict with our internal deeply-held sense of our own gender.
When we say that HRT makes us "feel" more female, we don't mean that it changes our identity from male to female. No matter how much testosterone we took, our identity would remain unchanged, and more testosterone would only make us feel more and more like our body's internal chemistry was in conflict with what our brain is actually wired to expect. HRT reduces sex-drive, lowers aggressiveness, and changes the body to be smoother, softer, less hairy, etc. So when the body and the mind changes to a state of being that is more feminine, the result is that we "feel" more female, because everything matches better the gender that we identify with.
That is what we mean when we say we "feel" more feminine.
Hi everyone and thank you so much for the replies.
Hugh that was a very detailed reply. Thank you, it made a lot of sense. Is there some kind of medical test or examination that can be done to identify which way your brain is "wired" so to speak?
Carrie Liz you are right. I was misunderstanding what people meant when they say HRT makes them feel more masculine or feminine as the case may be. Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Jayne.
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 19, 2015, 03:07:46 PM
Hugh that was a very detailed reply. Thank you, it made a lot of sense. Is there some kind of medical test or examination that can be done to identify which way your brain is "wired" so to speak?
There's no test as such, however, a trial dose of estrogen would probably give you a fair idea of whether it's the right thing for you or not!
I don't know about trans people in general, but a lot (around half) of the people I've talked to with a history of DES exposure, have a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus". This is caused by your body producing below normal male levels of testosterone during your childhood and puberty, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions. Here's a list of the characteristics associated with eunuchoid habitus:
* long, slender arms and legs
* a leg length that's significantly greater than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height.
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female "escutcheon" or pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* difficulty building upper body muscle
* feminine facial features and a generally feminine appearance (soft chubby features rather than hard muscular ones; gracile bone structure etc).
* gynecomastica
* other things such as female digit ratio (index finger equal to or longer than ring finger); absence of acne as a teenager; long, luxuriant eyelashes and comparatively small, high arched feet (in my case anyway).
Not all MTF trans people have this type of body structure, but it does seem to be a lot more common among us than among the cis male population. This is another reason for thinking that ->-bleeped-<- is actually a type of intersex condition, except one where the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals.
Hi and thanks for the information.
I definitely don't have eunuchoid habitus. On the outside I am all male. It's my brain that seems to have come from the female pile when they were handing out brains. :)
There are times when I feel ok being male and I question whether I am trans or not, but those times seem to not last long. It is very confusing feeling ok as a male sometimes and really wishing I was born female other times.
I think I have spent my life trying to be what people expect me to be that I no longer know myself what I am. I don't seem to have my own personality. I'm just a non person.
Somewhere inside me is the real me. Whether the real me is a mal or female, I don't care! I just want to be me and not what others expect me to be.
Sorry, got into a bit of a rant there.
Jayne
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 20, 2015, 02:52:04 PM
There are times when I feel ok being male and I question whether I am trans or not, but those times seem to not last long. It is very confusing feeling ok as a male sometimes and really wishing I was born female other times.
I think I have spent my life trying to be what people expect me to be that I no longer know myself what I am. I don't seem to have my own personality. I'm just a non person.
Somewhere inside me is the real me. Whether the real me is a mal or female, I don't care! I just want to be me and not what others expect me to be.
In my opinion some trans people learn from childhood on to read other peoples expectations...
knowing should help...
and maybe spending time in nature...
meditation...
and writing down ones dreams and hopes...
*hugs*
Quote from: Laura_7 on August 20, 2015, 06:00:20 PM
In my opinion some trans people learn from childhood on to read other peoples expectations...
knowing should help...
and maybe spending time in nature...
meditation...
and writing down ones dreams and hopes...
*hugs*
Couldn't agree more.
You'd think male hormones could be a "fix" for m2f trans but clearly they're not otherwise that's what we'd all be doing instead. In 2010 I found that I had low testosterone. The doctor suggested T shots and I was like noooooooooooo thanks. The thought of becoming "more male" terrified me.
Hi Laura_7 and Ms Grace. Thanks for your replies.
I think I used to have dreams and hopes but I can't be sure if they were my own or what others had dreamed and hoped for me or what I thought I should be dreaming and hoping. I honestly have no idea. It's just a blur. I know that I love my wife more than life itself. She sees something in me that I simply don't see myself. I really wish I had a clue what she sees in me. Maybe I could like me too then.
I'm really hoping the gender therapist can help me figure things out. Hopefully I don't have to wait too much longer. The therapist I'm currently seeing hand me a pen and paper and asked me to write what I was thinking down. I was just sitting there blank. Couldn't come up with a single thought. My brain just turned off.
I can't even decide what I want for lunch. I would read a menu in a restaurant and you would think I was making a life or death decision. When it comes to thinking and making decisions about me, I end up making a random choice in the end because "me" doesn't seem to exist, so how could I know what "me" wants. I don't know if that made any sense.
I seem to have gone off on a rant again. Sorry about that.
One thing I do know is that I like this website. The people here are kind and helpful.
Jayne
Jayne, I remember that hollow, empty, no one's home feeling well. For me it's a sure sign that I was repressing the real me. In my case the real me was a girl her momma called "Dee". For you, perhaps, something else.
Perhaps not.
When i went to the doctors befor my transition, i had my levels checked. And he told ne that i had a high level of natural testosterone for someone my age. I was 17 at the time. But the only way i felt was terrible. And then when i started HRT i started to feel happier. More content.. it was amazing.. it was like all the pain i had in my head was slowly drifting away..
There is loads of information online regarding HRT the NHS site has some good info..
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Hi Dee & leacobb. Thanks for your comments.
I've never had my testosterone levels checked. I don't even know what's considered low, high or normal. I'm not even considering HRT until after I have seen the gender therapist. I'm still kind of holding on to the hope that I'm not trans and just going through some kind of mid life crisis (that started when I was about 7 or 8 :)).
I know that sounds like I'm just keeping myself in denial, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I have trouble deciding what I want for lunch. There is no way I would put myself on the path of HRT without help and guidance from a professional.
I can't believe I'm even talking about this. A few months ago I would have buried this side of me so deep. Now I think about it all day everyday. When I open my eyes in the morning the very first thought I have is to scream out loud "I want to be a woman"! A "normal" guy wouldn't do that, right? Just the fact that I even have any thoughts that I'm in the wrong body should be a clue.
My whole life I would think that there was something unique about me and some higher power (aliens, secret agents, Star Trek) would be looking down on me and select me because of my special skills! (I know, I watch too many movies!!) I suppose my special skill is being able to pass myself off as a guy when I am not.
Wow! What am I babbling on about??? I seem be way off the reservation now. It's good that I can write stuff here and people understand most of what I am trying to say. If even only one person reads and replies it is a big help. I am truly grateful to all of you for your comments.
Thank you.
Jayne
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 21, 2015, 03:19:30 PM
My whole life I would think that there was something unique about me and some higher power (aliens, secret agents, Star Trek) would be looking down on me and select me because of my special skills! (I know, I watch too many movies!!)
Maybe not directly related to your statement, but I used to dream about Star Trek and getting in a transporter accident where I was turned female, hah. Also, movies about Virtual Reality that would tap into your brain and you could really BE a woman in that world. Ahhh, if only...
But! Transition, here I come!
Actually, Jayne, as a child I didn't fit in well and I used to fantasize that I was an alien or an elf or something. All I knew was that I wasn't what I appeared to be. It would seem that I was right!
Hi and thanks for all your comments.
I have another question. From everything I am learning, gender is something that is determined before birth. Wouldn't that mean that you would know something wasn't quite right as a very young child? I know some trans do know as a very young child, but there seem to be so many who don't quite figure it out until much later in their adult lives. Is it because we are brought up as our biological gender and we just get confused and can't identify what the problem is? Or if you sit closer to the middle of the male/female spectrum the brain/body mismatch isn't so great?
I just can't work out why I am 43 and only now just starting to accept the possibility that I might be transgender. That also upsets me a little because I think I have wasted my life as the wrong person.
Jayne
Hi Jayne,
Our identification as our affirmed gender varies greatly among individuals and there are several reasons. One being that we 'protect' ourselves by repressing our identity to such an extent that we are not consciously aware of it anymore - and then it slowly returns, often in middle age when we relax in our lives a little.
As far as your earlier question of treating MtF with high dose testosterone, this has been used but in almost all cases failed spectacularly. I recall the comment from my therapist when I asked him if there was someway that he could help me 'be a man' so I could be 'normal', his reply was simple. I can change your body to match your brain, but I can't change your brain to match your body.
I'm now a normal female; mission accomplished!
Hiya jayne, when your trans i think you do know that there is something not right when your little, i asked my mom things regarding my past and she told me when i was about 3 yrs old in nursery. When it was time to play dress up i would always go towards the female outfits, and because i did this regular my parents had to go up there for a chat.. then throughout the years till i was 16 i used to dress in my mothers clothes and play with my sisters dolls. When i hit pubity i suffered with suffear depression. The way my body was changing made me feel really uncomfortable. And fitting into other crouds was hard for me to do. I was so isolated as child, my mom then took me to the doctors regarding this and that is when i realised who i was.. I miss took me being transgendered as depression..
Now im 30 yrs old and i have fully transitioned and im so happy with life now. Comfortable with who i am. Completely relaxed. And happy that i can call myself a woman..
I hope this little insight into my life has helped you jayne and i hope you find the answers your searching for. .
Lea xXx
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Hi Cindy and Lea. Thank you so much for your replies.
Cindy, what your doctor said about he can change your body to match your brain, but can't change your brain to match your body is a simple way of putting it, but it makes sense. I suppose the brain is a very complicated thing.
Lea, I don't seem to remember a great deal about my childhood. However, over the past few weeks, my brain has been working overtime. I am thinking about who or what I am every single second of the day. Things have slowly been coming back to me from my childhood that I thought I had long forgotten. Little memories here and there that I don't know if are significant, but they randomly pop into my head.
I really can't wait to meet with a gender therapist. I feel like I am barely hanging on to my sanity. Every day is becoming a bigger struggle.
Jayne
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 23, 2015, 01:55:56 AM
Hi and thanks for all your comments.
I have another question. From everything I am learning, gender is something that is determined before birth. Wouldn't that mean that you would know something wasn't quite right as a very young child? I know some trans do know as a very young child, but there seem to be so many who don't quite figure it out until much later in their adult lives. Is it because we are brought up as our biological gender and we just get confused and can't identify what the problem is? Or if you sit closer to the middle of the male/female spectrum the brain/body mismatch isn't so great?
I just can't work out why I am 43 and only now just starting to accept the possibility that I might be transgender. That also upsets me a little because I think I have wasted my life as the wrong person.
Jayne
There are a few reasons to this.
One is that often transgender people are sensitive and unconsciously read others expectations. So they learned from childhood on to adapt to others.
Few had accepting people who would help them. It was simply not the time. Only few people would accept.
Instad they adapted.
Quite a few people later even overdid gender roles until they found its not them.
Additionally from a certain age on testosterone production decreases, which helps making for a more balanced personality.
Imo a more testosterone driven person is more active, simply trying to run away from it. A more stable person is able to see all tendencies.
Which can lead to more integration and stability instead of cycles of avoidance and breakthroughs.
Look at what has changed the last few years.
It were completely different times then. Acceptance was different, sentiment was different, and info was much harder to come by.
Imo its best to look forward, and use what is here now.
There is no need for regrets or whatever. Best to let it all go. Maybe making a list with wishes... and trying step by step to go in that direction.
hugs
Hi Laura. Thank you for your comment. I just read your post twice. I can relate to just about everything you said. I'm sure I just adapt like you said. The world is certainly more accepting of different people than 5 or 10 years ago. There is still a long way to go. It would be nice to live in a world where websites such as this are not needed because being trans is considered a normal thing.
I don't really have any regrets. If I think too much (I do tend to overthink everything), then I eventually get myself into a really down mood. If I was born in a female body and was raised as a girl and just lived a normal girl's life, I would probably never had met my wife and wouldn't be the person I am. So no regrets. Some days are just really hard to cope.
Everyday I seem to reluctantly be accepting I am female inside (at least to some degree). I can feel the male me slowly drifting away. It is really scary. I'm worried that I might lose the person I am. That might not make any sense. I don't know how to put it into words.
I don't want to spend any more of my life adapting to fit in. I really need to find out who I am so I can live my life as me. I just wish I knew who this "me" is!!!
I have a wonderful wife who loves the person inside (her words). I don't know how much of a transition she will be able to handle, but neither do I. Not something I am even considering at the moment. I certainly don't have any regrets. I could probably even consider myself lucky. I know what it is like to live in a man's world and I have an idea (at least in my own head) what it feels like to be a woman. I just need to somehow take the best of both and find a way for that to be a "me" that I am happy with.
Jayne
You could try some easy reversible steps... like changes to hair and clothing styles...
second hand shops could be a good source...
you could look for a good gender therapist to help you along...
if they are not helpful look for another.
Some might accept your insurance and communicate online:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,162888.msg1400316.html#msg1400316
And there are online therapists:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,187135.0.html
You might aks:
- how they see their role
- how much experience they have with tg people
- how long usually until a letter for hrt
hugs
Hi Laura.
There does not seem to be much in the way of help where I am. (Sydney, Australia). There are a few gender therapists that some others on here have suggested. I am currently on a waiting list to see a gender therapist. I am told she is very good, so I'm trying to be patient. In the meantime I am seeing another therapist, but he has no experience with trans issues. It's more of a temporary help until I get an appointment with the gender therapist. I really cannot wait to get that appointment. I want to get myself on the getting better path.
Jayne
Quote from: Jayne01 on August 24, 2015, 01:31:05 AM
Hi Laura.
There does not seem to be much in the way of help where I am. (Sydney, Australia). There are a few gender therapists that some others on here have suggested. I am currently on a waiting list to see a gender therapist. I am told she is very good, so I'm trying to be patient. In the meantime I am seeing another therapist, but he has no experience with trans issues. It's more of a temporary help until I get an appointment with the gender therapist. I really cannot wait to get that appointment. I want to get myself on the getting better path.
Jayne
Well you're on the way to get there :)
hugs