Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?
who you are, is not what you look like.
who you are, is not how you do things.
who you are, is not what your called.
who you are, is how you feel about those things and more.
who you are, is why you do things.
god loves who you are, and want who you are to be happy.
why would god have a problemb with anyone making changes so they can be happy?
I don't necessarily disagree. But what about objective truth and God being the ultimate source of love and happiness? Is it a slap in the face to God to say that I need to live life as a woman to be happy?
(disclaimer: the following is my own personal belief system and in no way is meant to stir debate or to cause harm to any other belief system). I am trans. I have been trans since the day I was born if not since I was conceive from the love of my mother and father. God gave me life. God is absolute love . There is absolutely no love greater than Gods love. Christianity is about Gods only begotten son. I am a Christian and Christ is my Lord who I shall forever love for eternity. God gave this world his only begotten son to fulfill the Contract that God made with Humanity. Christ is the fulfillment of Gods absolute love for what he created. Christ is Gods love. Christ was born to show Gods love. In no way would Christ deny his love for Gods creation. Christ is the absolute reflection of Creation. Absolutely in no uncertain terms would Christ being the reflection of the creators love turn his back on a single one of his sheep. Sadly the scripture has be distorted by some to deny Gods love. I am trans and I share in Gods love for his children through the love of my lord Jesus Christ.
Audrey-
Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.
Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.
To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.
If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?
The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.
I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.
Hun, there nothing wrong with you. For too long Christian leaders have used the word of God to push there own agenda and ideals. Woman have been considered second class citizens, non-believers branded as heretics, and homosexuals and transgenders as being immoral. But those leaders that have done this are the immoral ones. Christianity is not supposed to be about hate and persecution. It's supposed to be about love. Loving God, everyone around you, and yourself. As long as your a good person, God will know. Why would God make you this way, if He really thought it was a bad thing.
Not trying to sound too deep but do we really think a powerful God that made the universe cares about behavior on that level? Is he/she worried that I want to be a woman but not that there have been any murders of transgender women this (or any) year? Too easy a phrase, sorry. I think God is just looking for more love among humans, not division and derision.
Much of what is quoted against our community are from Paul's letters(not all but most). Paul's letters had a lot of good advice but tended to be very rooted in advice for a very specific audience(each congregation he was writing to) and time period. I tend to go to more "truths" and quotes from Jesus himself. So a few other thoughts.
Very few accusatory, Christian leaders can accept differences in the norm. If you have faith in him, Jesus was not ever about the norm.
If God does care about gender in individuals, my thought is along these lines. Very few people ever look at how I (you, we) am changing for the better. They see me altering God's work. My question to you, others and myself. Has God been concerned that I (you, we) have altered myself from what he meant for me to be for this long?(my whole life) My potential true self.
If neither of those do it for you, lets go to Jesus' words and a description. As in, if you think you are sinning and altering God's plan and are a sinner...
Newsflash 1. All sin. No exclusions. No matter how mighty, rightous and ordained. It's part of being human. Transgender or not.
He did not hang out with the leaders of his church and say, "We are so cool and right. We can just tell people what to do and hang around the temple chilling". Nope, out with the lepers, the poor, the disabled, the prostitutes and the possessed(whatever connotation that means to you in this day and age-spirits, substances...).
At the risk of hand picking a few quotes. It is dangerous because nearly any quote in the Bible can be refuted in (you guessed it) the Bible. However, these don't really seem subject to interpretation. Plus they come from the last few books(New Testament) so that is the point the author was trying to make(sorry, couldn't resist).
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believed in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."- Not just the cis born Catholics, Presbyterians, Babtists... Okay, you get the point.
The most important rule says nothing about how we think of ourselves but of God and others.
"36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
-Hard to love others if you do not love yourself. How can you love yourself if you hate what you see and not what you really are?
Hope I was not too clever writing that or too flip. I also hope you find the clarity you are looking for.
With Warmth,
Joanna
The problem with Christ's message as handed out by churches in the 21st century is that it barely resembles the original teaching anymore. In paraphrase one of things Christ said is that you can tell whether a person's faith is the genuine article by observing what they do rather than what they say. Going by that it's easy to see that many of the churches around today have seriously drifted off course.
In summary all of Christ's teaching can be summed up by Mark 12:30-31: -
(30) and thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of thy soul, and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength -- this [is] the first command;
(31) and the second [is] like [it], this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; -- greater than these there is no other command.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
It's not helped any by a good many modern translations of the Bible not being worth the paper they're written on. As a point of information the word 'homosexual' doesn't exist in either Hebrew or Greek and the first time the word 'homosexual' actually appeared in an English translation was in 1956 when a translation 'expert' used the word in place of a Greek slang word coined by Paul in one of his letters which does not have that meaning at all.
Such mistakes are legion in many modern translations which is the reason why I stick to either Syriac manuscripts or literal Greek translations.
So in brief Audrey if you have a genuine love for God in your heart then you're in no matter what anyone says.
What Jesus kept doing to show God's love? Miraculous therapies for lepers, blind people, crazy people, disabled. Doing so, he was correcting the way they had been created in the first place to now accomplish God's creation showing His love through the therapy.
Did the religious people of that time understand? Many of them did not, accusing Jesus to be linked to the devil, because he was not respecting the norm, the law, purity prescriptions... Because they did not believe God was love and caring about the poor, the excluded people, the sinners.
What did Jesus ask his disciples? To keep caring of the suffering people through more miracles and therapies.
Isn't gender dysphoria such a suffering? Couldn't we consider therapies as miracles sent by God today to express his love to gender dysphoric people?
Just seeing God as the creator of a "sacred" unchangeable nature is probably more pagan than christian. Seeing God's presence in cares and therapies which alleviate suffering and allow more life is probably a real way to follow Christ.
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I was a Christian too and a pretty knowledgable one. At one time I spent a couple of years studying at a seminary with the goal of becoming an Anglican priest.
In the long run I was not able to reconcile the two things. When I finally came to fully accept myself in the past year and after a long period of introspection I decided I had to face reality to live conflict free and have abandoned Christianity. I just couldn't reconcile what it says with what I can see of the actual world anymore.
My being trans was the catalyst, but not the only reason for my coming to this eventual decision.. However, I do not think it is possible to reconcile being trans with any authentic version of biblical based Christianity. The best you can do is invent something new that has the name but not the substance of historical Christianity. If you can live with that and still believe in it then there are plenty of churches around that do just that.
For me, I'm not sure where I'll end up. Right now I'm still kind of wavering between believing as an agnostic deist while leaning towards de facto atheism. While I do still somewhat mourn my past belief I am much happier without the conflict of trying to live with a faith that cannot be reconciled with objective reality.
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Quote from: Joanna50 on August 20, 2015, 03:27:49 AM
Not trying to sound too deep but do we really think a powerful God that made the universe cares about behavior on that level? Is he/she worried that I want to be a woman but not that there have been any murders of transgender women this (or any) year? Too easy a phrase, sorry. I think God is just looking for more love among humans, not division and derision.
Joanna, I'm asking some deep questions so I definitely appreciate all of the deep responses here. I guess in the end, what I'm going to have to resolve is the eventual choice of whether or not to transition. I 100% believe that God did not make a mistake in my creation (that I was a person born with a male body who believes she is female at the core). And yes, I believe the Bible is full of examples of Jesus showing who he was by miraculously correcting the perceived "mistakes" of creation and that fixing those mistakes is something he wants to see. To that end, I don't believe the desire to be a woman is necessarily a mistake or a bad thing. So I think i'm doing ok there.
The question for me comes down to the action. Far, far too often I play the game of, "What is the more Godly decision?" It's a terrible game to play when not faced with a moral dilemma. To answer Joanna's questions in a vacuum, no I do not believe God cares about behavior on that level. If I am truly seeking to love and please him, he will accept me and not hold my decision to transition against me. There are far, far bigger problems in the world. Stepping outside the vacuum is hard though. Is transition selfish and unloving to my wife? Would God rather me sacrifice myself for her sake when I know that my decision to physically become a woman would be devastating to her? The same goes for my family. Or, is the end game of devastation inevitable and would it be more loving to just do it now?
There are always tests from God. Sometimes people themselves are the test. He is not only testing you but your loved ones. Can they support you unconditionally? Will they reject you?
Gender dysphoria is a real and crippling thing. How would God feel knowing that you're unnecessarily causing yourself pain? That could lead to a more dangerous path than simply transitioning. Self loathing leads to resentment of others.
Audrey, maybe the decision is not between full transition or nothing. There might be a way, maybe to be tried first, to alleviate the dysphoria with low dose HRT. Several persons explain they do it since years, in this forum. This is what I am trying since 4 weeks.
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Stepping outside the vacuum is hard though. Is transition selfish and unloving to my wife? Would God rather me sacrifice myself for her sake when I know that my decision to physically become a woman would be devastating to her? The same goes for my family. Or, is the end game of devastation inevitable and would it be more loving to just do it now?
Ah, yes. I know this one. Not the answer mind you but the question. I of course cannot answer for you. I am not sure that I have an answer for me yet but if you don't mind a few bits of sharing experience and maybe an additional thought:
I have asked myself if I shouldn't sacrifice for my wife and children. I think one additional question I don't remember is if your wife knows. If so, how much do you see your marriage as a partnership. If so, what does she think? I am going to do a little bio to clarify why I asked that. Anyone who has read my posts may find some of this redundant, sorry.
I am 50 and was deep in denial or clueless till last January. I have been depressive, dark, moody, angry. My wife has been suggesting I try therapy for a few years. I finally agreed. I was an on again off again closeted cross dresser. I went to be "cured" and realized I did not fit the typical profile of a cross dresser. I did a lot of research, internal thought, recollection, self discovery and yes soul searching. So 3 months later I came out to my wife of 25 years as MTF. A month or two ago when I spoke to my wife and said I thought I was being unfair to her and should stop. She then weighed in on her side. She explained that it isn't fair but little is. She said that she has been amazed at how different and positive I have been since coming out to her and admitting to myself. Happier, getting over depression and rage much faster and not being bogged down in the darkness I have carried with me for years. She has seen the irony of the situation and knows I have seen it. That the situation and treatment of it's symptoms may make her feel she can no longer stay with me; however that treatment is helping me be a better,nicer, more fun person to be with... Playing it by ear. I am pre-HRT(just as a reference). She also said that she was very worried about where I would be by next year if I had not made this break through. She said that she did not know how far I needed to go but as part of the two in the couple she is not about to see me back slide to where I was.
I have not spoken to my children yet. I expect that will be a little awkward but I think they will be fine. Yes the rest of the family may be a challenge, but I have always been a challenge to them and they to me.
I am sorry if I am making this about me. I am just trying to share my experience, not for comparison, but to spark thoughts or questions. At this point, I am in therapy, starting facial electrolysis and scheduling my first endo appointment hopefully to try low dosage (maybe with blockers). Taking baby steps slowly, then checking back in with my wife at each step.
We are Presbyterians. She was an elder, I have been a deacon and nearly did seminary as well. Just as a how my experience fits into your original topic.
Long post for a short question. So sorry.
Good luck.
With warmth,
Joanna
The thing is, the whole "you can't reject what God made you" argument is one created by human beings interpereting their own views of which of God's creations are natural and acceptable or not.
If God did make you the way that you are, then God made you trans too.
Being trans is a medical condition, just like any medical condition. But you'd never hear someone saying "oh, no, don't get a prosthetic for that limb that you were born without. God made you that way. Don't reject how God made you," because they understand that there's nothing wrong with making one's life easier when the technology exists to do so. You'd never hear someone say "oh no, don't get treatment for that diabetes or cancer, don't cut out that malignant tumor on your body, God made you that way, you should love the body parts that He gave you even if they're going to kill you."
The problem isn't God. He didn't make a mistake. Humans are the ones making mistakes, by choosing to stigmatize one medical condition over another.
Trans people are biologically intersex. More and more studies are showing it as such. It's just that it's not a visible form of being intersex, because the brain isn't an external organ.
And the last time I checked, Christians don't generally tell intersex people to not get surgeries on their bodies to conform to binary-gendered norms, because humans have a vested interest in maintaining the gender binary. And I doubt they'd tell a woman with PCOS to not balance her hormones, to embrace the facial hair and infertility that God gave her even though it causes her distress.
Again, I hope you can see the double-standards here.
Going into transition, after years of trying to pray being trans away all through college, after finally graduating, the message that I got in prayer was "it's time to stop fighting who you are." And I did.
Humans tell us that being trans is rejecting who God made us. I believe it's embracing it.
And even if I'm wrong, even if it is actually looked down upon by God, He's a bigger God than that. Even Paul had a "thorn in the flesh" that God would not remove from him when he tried to pray it away. (2 Corinthians 12.) Christianity isn't about judging you for every single thing you've ever done wrong and every single imperfection, it's about forgiveness for those things, about loving God, and about loving your neighbor as yourself. Whoever does those things has fulfilled the Law.
ditto
Humans are the ones making mistakes, by choosing to stigmatize one medical condition over another.
And even if I'm wrong, even if it is actually looked down upon by God, He's a bigger God than that.
Amen, sister. Or true that.
Joanna
Just to add my two cents in this...
There are a handful of out Trans* Christian clergy out there... I'm not out yet, but non-ordained clergy.... I've got at least a year to be ordained yet...
Which is to say what everyone else is saying. Being Trans* and Christian is not impossible. It makes for fun conversations though... When I was a young teenager, I thought Deuteronomy 23:1 was hilarious because it said penis and balls.... (In some translations such as NRSV)....
Now it's not so funny...
Autrement, that's definitely a possibility to consider somewhere down the road. I'm just starting out on this journey so this might be a direction I go in. We'll see.
Carrie, I definitely agree with you. I don't think God is so small and so petty that if I chose to become a woman physically, he'd somehow not be able to get over it. Even if it was a "sinful" decision, I do believe he's more concerned with the heart and whether or not we love like Jesus does.
Joanna, thank you so much for sharing your experience. I in no way thought you were making this about you. It's so nice to hear other people's experience and realize that there are others who can relate to me. It's definitely sparked some thoughts and questions. My wife does in fact know and we do very much view each other as partners. It makes me think about inviting her in to helping me figure out the answer to my questions rather continue to try to protect her as I usually do.
I don't have a ton to add to this, but, something I remember from a while ago went like,
If God created you, I think he would have made you how you are, how you think as well, so he must have made you trans, right? Maybe just an added challenge?
(I hope that came out right, jeez. My vocabulary is suffering for some reason.)
Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
I don't necessarily disagree. But what about objective truth and God being the ultimate source of love and happiness? Is it a slap in the face to God to say that I need to live life as a woman to be happy?
what i was saying is, who you are, is who you are, and god loves you for who you are and wants you to be happy.
somtims we are born into situations that we are made unhappy by other humans, one such thing is the notion that all men have to conform to a spacific design, and all woman have to do like wise. its these notions that cause us pain. because this is a temporal notion, not a spiritual one.
each and everyone of us IS different, and god knows this. but as unique as we are, so is our ability to be happy and unhappy. to like and not like.
our agency is a gift from god. and it is not acting upon that agency "save it interfrearing with the agancy of another" that is an afront to god.
the temporal idea of fearness is that every body has fruit and eats an apple.
but the spiritual fearness is, everybody eats their favourite food.
eg, temporal fairness is, we all eat the same thing in the same amouts, because divergence from this is unfair.
but spiritual fairness is, we all feel the same about what we eat because that is fair.
so if having long hair would make you happy, on ac->-bleeped-<- that short hair being a social exspectation and not your own choice makes you misserable. then god wants you to have long hair.
so no, you should not be a woman or a man, you should be yourself.
Transition for me is not about, being a woman or a man, it is about me being me.
I like long hair so i have long hair
I like these clothes so these are what i chose to wear.
And each and every choice i make is with spiritual benifit in mind.
e,g if having a penis didnt cause me as much distress as it does, i wouldnt go for surgery. It is only due to an almost certian self castration that would lead to a slow bleeding spiritual death and vast amounts or sadness amongst my family, As to why this is even somthing I am considering.
Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?
Its a tough one .i had the same battle but came to the realization that being trans is who i am as a person. :-)
Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-
Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.
Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.
To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.
If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?
The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.
I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.
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My wife does in fact know and we do very much view each other as partners. It makes me think about inviting her in to helping me figure out the answer to my questions rather continue to try to protect her as I usually do.
[/quote]
I think that is very important. I have come to value the team aspect working with my wife. Additionally, there is a saying that when a person transitions, the family does too(or something similar to that paraphrase). It is not only helpful but unfair to her to leave her out of the decision. Remembering that sometimes decisions or agreements are to not agree...
Good luck. Have a good week end if you can.
With warmth,
Joanna
Thanks, Joanna. Your advice really helps. I guess in the end, my question was less about me and god directly but more about how to deal with some of the most difficult aspects of this (#1 being my marriage) in a way that seems to me to be honoring to god. I think bringing my wife alongside me more is definitely the best way to do that.
I realize I'm late to the party here.
I'm Christian.
I grew up Evangelical Free. Later I was affiliated with the Bible Students.
I was married.
I have a daughter.
I will not for a minute suggest that there are easy or obvious answers for you.
Some of us can live as the sex assigned at birth; some of us can survive that way; some of us cannot continue that way. I cannot say how it is for you.
The first step for me was coming out to my wife. We talked and prayed. Ultimately, we separated, divorced. I transitioned. Your experience may be different.
Since my transition, I met someone and fell in love. We have been together 26 years, and we're married. We joined the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (MCC) and later the United Church of Christ (UCC). I completed seminary and was approved for ordination pending call in 2013. Again, your experience will probably be different in some ways.
Regarding who you feel you are inside, and your relationship with God, I suggest this exercise:
Take your innermost self, your most honest self, to God in prayer. With complete vulnerability and honesty, approach the Creator and see how that feels. I suspect you will find a loving presence who has always known you, who knows you better than you know yourself, who is ready to embrace your truest expression of self.
Whether that will lead to transition or not, only you and God will know.
Blessings on your journey, wherever it leads you.
Quote from: cindik on August 22, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
Take your innermost self, your most honest self, to God in prayer. With complete vulnerability and honesty, approach the Creator and see how that feels. I suspect you will find a loving presence who has always known you, who knows you better than you know yourself, who is ready to embrace your truest expression of self.
Thanks, cindik! I think this is wonderful advice that I need to practice more often even outside of my gender issues.
The way I as a devout Christian was able to come to terms with being Trans was the fact that I believe that God puts on this planet for a specific reason, and while we have full and complete free will, he still gives us challenges to hurdle through in our road to getting ultimate happiness in the mortal world and eventual happiness in the afterlife with him and Jesus; as happiness is something I believe that God guides us to work to earn. For someone like me, the challenge he gave me was creating me spiritually and mentally as a woman but sticking me in a male body, I believe God did this to test me, to test my strength and resolve, whether I could overcome the depression and hatred to work to gain the happiness I need and want through becoming my true self - by becoming the woman I am mentally and spiritually.
This is how I came to terms with it, and God's love and grace and my faith as a whole as helped me come to terms with it all and guides me through life as a whole.
Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-
Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.
Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.
To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.
If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?
The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.
I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.
So wonderfully put :angel: This put a smile on my face :D
So, for those who are Christian, do you feel that in the bible context, to be Eunuch exclusively means to be Trans? Or would Eunuch mean a cis-man chooses to loose his testicles to serve God totally without the libido interfering? Its a sharp contrast to the OT where Deuteronomy 23:1 states that "No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may participate in the assembly of the LORD"
I however have faith and would love to be 100% clear that In all literalness, Christ even satisfied this, to a level of detail that allows for us girls to live happily with the Lord. I know that Christ's sacrifice of His sinless life was a propitiation for our sins, so do you feel that EVERYTHING in the OT is satisfied? I've been taught that still the 10 Commandments still hold shape. I know I sound legalistic... but I'm so afraid. I should know better... how much I know of the Faith... but sometimes I just loose confidence.
Then there is the topic of sexuality... I only prefer the company of women, so as someone born XY, am I covered if I lie with a woman as a woman? Or to avoid abhorrent homosexual sin as the bible says, should we all remain abstinent like the Eunuch?
A good article on this topic:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mercynotsacrifice/2012/05/21/why-does-god-make-eunuchs-matthew-1912/
I'm caveating this to say I am no longer Christian. However, I used to be a very well versed one and studied in a seminary for a while.
I think the eunuch verse has nothing to do with being trans. In the early church there were those that castrated themselves but that was solely to remove sexual feelings and avoid temptation.
There were trans people in that era and if the Bible writers had wished to put them in a positive context they could have done that.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: Deborah on January 23, 2016, 01:34:44 PM
I'm caveating this to say I am no longer Christian. However, I used to be a very well versed one and studied in a seminary for a while.
Sapere Aude
Thanks for your comments :) I'm sure that you know if you have accepted Christ in your life, God won't let you go. Unless you make multiple attempts to grieve the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you also know that grieving the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.
May I ask what makes you feel no longer Christian? I feel bad to hear you say that.
Well, I have written why before but the short version is that after 40 years of praying for either a mind or body cure for being trans and receiving no reply other than stone cold silence I gave up. And it doesn't matter to the Christians how hard I studied or prayed. To them I am a hell bound reprobate. So it just didn't seem worth my time and effort to maintain a charade any longer.
I still believe in God but not in the Christian version. I have even found a way to include Christ but it's an entirely heretical way.
Sapere Aude
Well rest assured that people who judge you have already judged themselves. I pity them to be honest. They know not what they do. And if they do, they have evil in their hearts.
Some people who say they are Christian may take a dogmatic or even legalistic approach. I feel bad for them for if they are legalistic to others here on earth, they should expect the same when they meet their maker. Its a pity really. I wish they'd change their tune.
I believe that all people of earth are inherently fallen and depraved. We by default err to sin. Its easy and sometimes pleasurable to do. But its not part of God's will for us. Jesus payed for it all. I will always sin until my body expires. Until that I will try to live, glorifying God through Christ. Its so hard in this world though I know.
Bishop Gene Robinson, the first gay Episcopal Bishop wrote a well reasoned, theologically sound 47 page paper on why transgender people should be accepted into all communities of faith. You can find it online but I have it downloaded and if anyone would like a copy, I'll send it to you.
I found it online here https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/15125721/TransFaith-report.pdf
I'm going to read it.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?
I have the same feelings. I find comfort in constantly seeking acceptance from Christ by praying "Forgive me if I've sinned Heavenly Father, but I want to be your baby boy, not your baby daughter. Then I feel indecisive and feel like God will guide me down the right path and leave it up to him whether I become a man on the outside. I sometimes feel like he's given me a challenge or test in life and rely on him for comfort and direction."
So I fantasize about being a man often, and pray for answers to whether I should alter my body in the future or not. I feel inferior as a woman and have been told I'm sexist against other women and myself. I resent the female roles in the bible and can't feel like they apply to me because when I try to do traditional woman things I feel out of place and awkward. I have much empathy for women after living as one I think their lives are harder and they gain strength from starting out weaker. I have never been good at submitting to anyone.
If I have SRS and become male I will also be a homosexual. I personally suspect that many holy men throughout time have been homosexual whether celebate or not. I am certain I will never feel any emotional connection through sex unless its AS a man with a man I'm close to. I have loved men, but then it died because they wanted to treat me like a normal girlfriend or wife and it upsets me that they aren't treating me like respected male comrade or a lover.
The sad thing is my family have said, "but God made you such a delicate pretty girl". That makes me feel guilt.
Regardless I know that everyone alive on Earth is a sinner by some means, and I believe all who ask for forgiveness and cherish Jesus Christ's love, pray, and give all they can to others will forever be like a child safe in his arms.
Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-
Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.
Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.
To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.
If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?
The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.
I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.
This is a wonderful post. God bless you!
Quote from: Joanna50 on August 20, 2015, 09:30:27 AM
Stepping outside the vacuum is hard though. Is transition selfish and unloving to my wife? Would God rather me sacrifice myself for her sake when I know that my decision to physically become a woman would be devastating to her? The same goes for my family. Or, is the end game of devastation inevitable and would it be more loving to just do it now?
Ah, yes. I know this one. Not the answer mind you but the question. I of course cannot answer for you. I am not sure that I have an answer for me yet but if you don't mind a few bits of sharing experience and maybe an additional thought:
I have asked myself if I shouldn't sacrifice for my wife and children. I think one additional question I don't remember is if your wife knows. If so, how much do you see your marriage as a partnership. If so, what does she think? I am going to do a little bio to clarify why I asked that. Anyone who has read my posts may find some of this redundant, sorry.
I am 50 and was deep in denial or clueless till last January. I have been depressive, dark, moody, angry. My wife has been suggesting I try therapy for a few years. I finally agreed. I was an on again off again closeted cross dresser. I went to be "cured" and realized I did not fit the typical profile of a cross dresser. I did a lot of research, internal thought, recollection, self discovery and yes soul searching. So 3 months later I came out to my wife of 25 years as MTF. A month or two ago when I spoke to my wife and said I thought I was being unfair to her and should stop. She then weighed in on her side. She explained that it isn't fair but little is. She said that she has been amazed at how different and positive I have been since coming out to her and admitting to myself. Happier, getting over depression and rage much faster and not being bogged down in the darkness I have carried with me for years. She has seen the irony of the situation and knows I have seen it. That the situation and treatment of it's symptoms may make her feel she can no longer stay with me; however that treatment is helping me be a better,nicer, more fun person to be with... Playing it by ear. I am pre-HRT(just as a reference). She also said that she was very worried about where I would be by next year if I had not made this break through. She said that she did not know how far I needed to go but as part of the two in the couple she is not about to see me back slide to where I was.
I have not spoken to my children yet. I expect that will be a little awkward but I think they will be fine. Yes the rest of the family may be a challenge, but I have always been a challenge to them and they to me.
I am sorry if I am making this about me. I am just trying to share my experience, not for comparison, but to spark thoughts or questions. At this point, I am in therapy, starting facial electrolysis and scheduling my first endo appointment hopefully to try low dosage (maybe with blockers). Taking baby steps slowly, then checking back in with my wife at each step.
We are Presbyterians. She was an elder, I have been a deacon and nearly did seminary as well. Just as a how my experience fits into your original topic.
Long post for a short question. So sorry.
Good luck.
With warmth,
Joanna
This was a nice story to hear. Can you estimate what your church will think of your SRS?
Quote from: Metanoia on August 20, 2015, 03:02:23 PM
Just to add my two cents in this...
There are a handful of out Trans* Christian clergy out there... I'm not out yet, but non-ordained clergy.... I've got at least a year to be ordained yet...
Which is to say what everyone else is saying. Being Trans* and Christian is not impossible. It makes for fun conversations though... When I was a young teenager, I thought Deuteronomy 23:1 was hilarious because it said penis and balls.... (In some translations such as NRSV)....
Now it's not so funny...
How many people know about transgender clergy? May I ask your denomination and your gender identity, please?
i really hope this has been brought up already, but the second time (yes, SECOND) the bible mentions woman being brought into the world, it is when eve is being created from adam's rib, which, genetically speaking, would make her biologically male, so really, god created the heavens and the earth, and two dudes, one who looked like a chick, and everyone born since is actually born xy male with female charactaristics that change upon puberty.
scientifically, the above argument is flawed logically on either side of the argument of the biblical accuracy of the creation myth. perhaps the bible is telling the truth and observational evidence is not to be trusted, or it could be that god doesn't exists in the way you think it does. it could even be that an omnipotent deity should not have gender at all, and so all forms of manifestation in this realm are valid under that pretext.
*shrug* being trans and believing in a creator that has capacity to hate what they create may be difficult to cause to peacefully coexist, but thankfully only one can be directly observed to be true, and if god dont like it, they shouldve thought about that before they made trans people.
Quote from: Phek on February 27, 2016, 01:27:53 AM
i really hope this has been brought up already, but the second time (yes, SECOND) the bible mentions woman being brought into the world, it is when eve is being created from adam's rib, which, genetically speaking, would make her biologically male, so really, god created the heavens and the earth, and two dudes, one who looked like a chick, and everyone born since is actually born xy male with female charactaristics that change upon puberty.
scientifically, the above argument is flawed logically on either side of the argument of the biblical accuracy of the creation myth. perhaps the bible is telling the truth and observational evidence is not to be trusted, or it could be that god doesn't exists in the way you think it does. it could even be that an omnipotent deity should not have gender at all, and so all forms of manifestation in this realm are valid under that pretext.
*shrug* being trans and believing in a creator that has capacity to hate what they create may be difficult to cause to peacefully coexist, but thankfully only one can be directly observed to be true, and if god dont like it, they shouldve thought about that before they made trans people.
I struggled much of my life with hating God and resenting the roles and lives of women and rejected my womanhood until I grew up and realized the others are comfortable with women's roles and who they are and I'm one of the few with that problem. I WAS more sexist against women than most men. I will always have empathy and respect for women though and what they go through, but I can't stand to live that way.
Recently accepting Jesus and loving him is helping me to deal with my dysphoria.
if there's some group or entity in or outside of existence that is capable of having made everything, they're probably waaaaaay cooler than their biography.
Quote from: Phek on February 27, 2016, 02:01:32 AM
if there's some group or entity in or outside of existence that is capable of having made everything, they're probably waaaaaay cooler than their biography.
You mean they're much more infinite than the bible? I'm sure they are.
i mean if there is a god, and he made us with the cruel irony that we're wrong just for being in existence, then either christianity is wrong (dont recall the bible ever mentioning trans ppl, but hey. humans are ->-bleeped-<-s), and god loves everyone no matter what rich white ppl in mississippi think, or god is an ->-bleeped-<- who doesn't deserve worship cause the things he made can love better than he can.
I've never had a lot of difficulty reconciling my faith and my gender.
I believe in God and I believe that everything happens for a reason. God made me transgender for a reason. My assumption would be so that I would have these experiences and in turn be able to help others. And if I am wrong? That's fine - I will have dedicated my life to supporting and helping others, and IMO that's what's most important and what Christ wanted from all of us.
Quote from: Phek on February 27, 2016, 05:59:53 AM
i mean if there is a god, and he made us with the cruel irony that we're wrong just for being in existence, then either christianity is wrong
No, in fact that is exactly what evangelical Calvanism teaches. Some people are created by God without hope of salvation; predestined at the beginning of creation to spend eternity in hell.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: FTMax on February 27, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
I've never had a lot of difficulty reconciling my faith and my gender.
I believe in God and I believe that everything happens for a reason. God made me transgender for a reason. My assumption would be so that I would have these experiences and in turn be able to help others. And if I am wrong? That's fine - I will have dedicated my life to supporting and helping others, and IMO that's what's most important and what Christ wanted from all of us.
I ask Christ for forgiveness everyday for anything I have done that may be a sin even if it doesn't say anything about it in the bible. Then I feel like he is telepathically embracing me, but at the same time feel guilt because my grandmother said "Jesus made you such a pretty girl because he loved you."
Quote from: Deborah on February 27, 2016, 09:49:44 AM
No, in fact that is exactly what evangelical Calvanism teaches. Some people are created by God without hope of salvation; predestined at the beginning of creation to spend eternity in hell.
Sapere Aude
I think that's ridiculous.
Quote from: alienbodybuilder on February 27, 2016, 02:28:51 PM
I think that's ridiculous.
The majority of American Evangelicals do follow in full or at least in part the theology of John Calvin of which this teaching on predestination is a major part. The only ones to my knowledge who don't are Lutherans who follow the theology of Martin Luther. So ridiculous or not there are tens of millions of American Christians who do believe this.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: alienbodybuilder on February 27, 2016, 01:11:44 AM
This was a nice story to hear. Can you estimate what your church will think of your SRS?
I have to admit that I am no where near a decision on surgery. I am dressing androgynously but mostly still presenting as male. I am out only to my wife, my oldest daughter and a few friends. I have been hoping this is the year I will present more often and come out to more.
It is my belief that if I talked to our pastor and it was presented carefully that about half the congregation would support me; 1/4 would try to ignore it and me and the last quarter would either be hostile or completely ignore me. It is an older congregation, on the whole. I suspect if/when I get to that point I may be moving and starting fresh anyway.
Not a great example of courage... However, I think that my denomination would be prepped to accept us(trans community). It is also my belief that religion's core problems come from the fact that they are created by humans, not a deity. So the same inspirations and troubles we have from our governments are experienced within our religions.
Long meandering answer for a simple question.
Sorry,
Joanna
Quote from: Deborah on February 27, 2016, 02:36:24 PM
The majority of American Evangelicals do follow in full or at least in part the theology of John Calvin of which this teaching on predestination is a major part. The only ones to my knowledge who don't are Lutherans who follow the theology of Martin Luther. So ridiculous or not there are tens of millions of American Christians who do believe this.
Sapere Aude
Deborah,
If you don't mind me adding. Presbyterianism did come from Calvinism. However, as it evolved and shifted, predestination has become far more complex than is generally presented. My pastor even spoke to this about a year ago.
Here are four points about how it is seen in today's world:
I think at least four points are important. First of all, the Reformed tradition has always stressed the freedom of God, and predestination has been connected to a doctrine of God's freedom and of God's lordship over the universe, over all creation. The doctrine of predestination re-emphasizes that God alone is Lord.
In the second place, the doctrine of predestination functions for us today, as well as it did for Luther and Calvin, to safeguard the doctrine of justification by grace. I think our experience is that faith comes as a gift from God; we understand that God comes to us with God's grace--to which we can only respond with gratitude. And Reformed predestination is a way of saying God has taken the initiative in giving us these gifts.
Third, I think that, along with the Reformers, we can see this doctrine as a source of assurance of God's love for us. It is a doctrine that gives us confidence as we stand before God as forgiven sinners.
Finally, we need to see the doctrine as the Reformers did as part of a doctrine of providence: God cares about everything God has created, and God has a purpose for each person who has been created.
Those of us who are called to faith can give thanks for God's initiative in dealing with us so graciously. But most contemporary Presbyterians are reluctant to assume that we know anything about God's purpose for those who seem to have rejected faith. We perceive it to be dangerous to move beyond the mystery of predestination to try to explain what God has not revealed.
The whole history of theology reflects tension in relating a Biblical concept of calling or election or predestination with an equally Biblical doctrine of human responsibility. The Reformed tradition has held that sinners are responsible for their sinful acts even though they are unable to turn away from them without the gift of God's grace. But it has also insisted that God's grace transforms the will so that it can freely obey God's will, though not perfectly.
The Christian is therefore responsible for finding God's will and living in accordance with it. We are free to obey God. We must continue to work theologically at relating God's calling or predestination with human responsibility.
Taken from comments in an interview of Jane Dempsey Douglass on one of the Presbyterian websites. It has a lot more detail and if you are interested, here is the link:
https://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/today/predestination/
Joanna
Joanna
meh, religion is rice; pick a topping.
Quote from: FTMax on February 27, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
I've never had a lot of difficulty reconciling my faith and my gender.
I believe in God and I believe that everything happens for a reason. God made me transgender for a reason. My assumption would be so that I would have these experiences and in turn be able to help others. And if I am wrong? That's fine - I will have dedicated my life to supporting and helping others, and IMO that's what's most important and what Christ wanted from all of us.
I've had similar thoughts about helping others. I have no quality of life as a woman and no cis person can imagine how important GRS is to me. If I'm not happy with myself I can't be good to others. You have to love yourself before you can love others. I have an inferiority complex for being female. Not that Cis women are inferior because they naturally have women's souls.
I have the sin of vainglory or pride and ask for forgiveness all the time. For me cohabitation without marriage and fornication are inevitable sins. Life wouldn't be enjoyable for me without those sins. If we are fallen and of a sinful nature I feel like God would feel closer to us or we are closer to him when we repent regardless of the sin. My Orthodox Christian friend warned me about choosing passions of this world over God. I do not feel like I'm putting them before God.
I am not wonderful at interpreting the bible. I am still looking for a good church for me. This Sunday I go to the Episcopal church which I hear accepts gays and trans people as they are. So if they notice me turning into a man I'll let them know.
I am already a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church which is good, but not really Christian. So in addition I'll need baptism and communion every Sunday morning. I will meet up with my mostly GLBT friends from the Unitarian Church periodically.
I admire Eastern Orthodoxy and love the people and to read about the saints, but they won't accept my lifestyle. I would have to repent and repeat cannons very often. I need something more modern. I'm not enough of a martyr to be one of them.
Only God sees what good I do, and I pray that it evens out. Other people only see my sins, but God knows what's in my heart. As time goes on more churches are starting to accept LGBT for who/what they are whether they believe it's a sin or not.
Quote from: Joanna50 on February 29, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
It is also my belief that religion's core problems come from the fact that they are created by humans, not a deity
I have thought that many times before. When we bravely come out as transexuals and the church sees that we are decent Christians like them they will realize it's just like any other sin, no better no worse. Our beloved father Christ may have put us here for that very reason. This is a challenge we face in life.
Do you ever picture your immortal soul in heaven and feel like Jesus will understand that you are trying to look like your old self by having GRS? I know what my immortal soul looks like and by changing my gender and possibly getting plastic surgery on my face later on I will feel more whole and present as I will in Heaven. I know that many will see it as vanity, and I admit it is and pride is a sin, but I want to look the way I feel on the inside. This is about self expression and quality of life for me.
If I cannot love myself I have a hard time connecting with others. I am sure that I will feel relief getting my masculinity back and feel more gratitude towards God, and others and be able to love my neighbor better. If my GRS isn't meant to be God won't let it happen, but if it is he will guide me through the path.
Quote from: alienbodybuilder on February 29, 2016, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: FTMax on February 27, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
I've never had a lot of difficulty reconciling my faith and my gender.
I believe in God and I believe that everything happens for a reason. God made me transgender for a reason. My assumption would be so that I would have these experiences and in turn be able to help others. And if I am wrong? That's fine - I will have dedicated my life to supporting and helping others, and IMO that's what's most important and what Christ wanted from all of us.
I've had similar thoughts about helping others. I have no quality of life as a woman and no cis person can imagine how important GRS is to me. If I'm not happy with myself I can't be good to others. You have to love yourself before you can love others. I have an inferiority complex for being female. Not that Cis women are inferior because they naturally have women's souls.
I have the sin of vainglory or pride and ask for forgiveness all the time. For me cohabitation without marriage and fornication are inevitable sins. Life wouldn't be enjoyable for me without those sins. If we are fallen and of a sinful nature I feel like God would feel closer to us or we are closer to him when we repent regardless of the sin. My Orthodox Christian friend warned me about choosing passions of this world over God. I do not feel like I'm putting them before God.
I am not wonderful at interpreting the bible. I am still looking for a good church for me. This Sunday I go to the Episcopal church which I hear accepts gays and trans people as they are. So if they notice me turning into a man I'll let them know.
I am already a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church which is good, but not really Christian. So in addition I'll need baptism and communion every Sunday morning. I will meet up with my mostly GLBT friends from the Unitarian Church periodically.
I admire Eastern Orthodoxy and love the people and to read about the saints, but they won't accept my lifestyle. I would have to repent and repeat cannons very often. I need something more modern. I'm not enough of a martyr to be one of them.
Only God sees what good I do, and I pray that it evens out. Other people only see my sins, but God knows what's in my heart. As time goes on more churches are starting to accept LGBT for who/what they are whether they believe it's a sin or not.
Not sure if they have any in your area, but check out an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) church if they have one around. You might like it.
Quote from: FTMax on February 29, 2016, 07:25:14 PM
My city is full of churches, but right now I want to go to this Episcopalian one. Friends of my family go there so I'm familiar to them.
Not sure if they have any in your area, but check out an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) church if they have one around. You might like it.
Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?
God is infallible right?
So he made you trans!
Quote from: FTMax on February 27, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
I've never had a lot of difficulty reconciling my faith and my gender.
I believe in God and I believe that everything happens for a reason. God made me transgender for a reason. My assumption would be so that I would have these experiences and in turn be able to help others. And if I am wrong? That's fine - I will have dedicated my life to supporting and helping others, and IMO that's what's most important and what Christ wanted from all of us.
God bless you for this wonderful post.
When it comes to being transgender and Christian, the first thing I must realize is that it is not a salvation issue. Me being transgender, or transitioning will not affect my salvation. The book of John is full of verses stating how one must become saved, and "not being transgender" isn't in there. After this has been established, I see to it that I try to live as a man following Biblical principles throughout my daily life. It doesn't happen that way all the time, but I'm trying.
Quote from: alienbodybuilder on February 27, 2016, 01:16:24 AM
How many people know about transgender clergy? May I ask your denomination and your gender identity, please?
I know you were addressing metanoia, but I am United Church of Christ, identify as female (AMAB), am pastor of a church in Evanston IL, and will be ordained in Yorkville IL in June.
Half my family is Catholic (Irish) so I had a lot of input from that as a kid, went to church with my grandparents, went to a church school, etc. The other half is atheist. When the parents divorced, I ended up with the atheists. It makes me wonder how I would have reconciled this whole thing had I been surrounded by religious people.
When I was about 7 or 8 I tried to "converse" with this god they all believed in. Since he never seemed to give any sort of answer I decided Catholicism wasn't for me. But, the weird thing was I didn't have a whole lot of guilt from any of it, since I figured human beings are quite powerless compared to god. When I was really young I remember rationalizing that if god made everything and he was all powerful, then everything in the world is as he intended. All the bad as well as the good. So I'm pretty sure I'd have believed trans people were endorsed by god because he allows them to be born. All the earthly hysteria over it is the handiwork of foolish mortals.
fortunatewly yhe new tesyament made it very easy to answer certain"christians" who say they would enjoy killing us, clayming we are sinners Jesus made his position on that very clear remember the story of the woman accused of adultry that amob wished to stone claiming that the law allowed it.Jesus just looked at them and said let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone. under His gaze one after another dropped his stone and left.Jesus said to the woman go and sin no more allowing her to go in peace. some of these so called men of God prefer to forget that
Yeah, I always felt the word of god and the word of man were two absolutely separate things, and that no human being could ever be the authority to say exactly what is and is not meant in the bible.
The fact it mentions nothing about trans people but many Christians have sanctimonious opinions on us cinches it for me. They have trained themselves to be judge, which is exactly what the book says not to do, and judging something the book said nothing about.
I have decided that I am trans and I am Christian and I am happy! I am not letting people dictate to me what it is they think I should be so I can be a Christian. The bible is a book written by man, that book does not run my life, it is a nice guide. I am loved and I love. I done with members of my family and my social circle who don't agree. I am me and I feel God loves me the way I am.