Hi everyone,
So, I'm mtf, which a lot of people don't believe, but I am. I'm also 21, and started transitioning at age 20, in early-college. I determined that I had to do this, as years of abusing steroids, as well as trying to embrace the gender I'm expected to be, only caused distress.
I've been through an unbelievable amount of hardship, as many trans women have, solely to be myself. But the thing is, I look gg, and a lot of the unacceptance has come from my then-family. If you're familiar with VICE on HBO, they interviewed me with my story the other day (which will be featured), mainly because I attend a pretty relevant university, fortunately.
And that's the thing -- attending the GLBT-receptive powerhouse that I do, one would think that I'd run into a lot of trans girls, especially considering that I live in their learning community designed specifically for transgender/gender-queer people. But I'm the only mtf here that I've heard about in the learning community, and one of three that I've heard about across campus (47k people). For every trans woman, there seems to be three or so trans men. For every trans man, there's like 2 gender-queer people.
Why in the world are there so few trans women, pretty much anywhere, who are in their late-teens early-20s??? I encounter many who started in their 40s, but I'm feeling pretty lonely unless I'm searching pretty hardcore on Tumblr.
I think that for a lot of people, even if they recognise they are transgender they fight against it because of social and family expectations. Our society is also not very kind towards "effeminate men" and women are frequently seen as inferior. A common story is that many transwomen try to "man up" through various macho activities in the hope they can macho the trans out of themselves. Also at that age it can be difficult to sort the various challenges of transition out unless you have a lot of professional and family support. I started to transition at age 23 but after two years I pretty much imploded due to the lack of both those.
Primary transsexuals are less common than secondaries maybe? Young transitioners often pass as cis. There could be a lot of them at your school but they don't want to waive a flag.
Gracie offers a valid point of view about possible lack of support. I tried to start hrt several times. The first time I requested it, I was about 22/23, I was met with hostility by the health system. I finally managed to start hrt at 29 after several more requests, having been shot down, and even laughed at. Things are different now, and it's less than a decade. I hate to imagine what it would have been like for people 30 years back....
I think there's a few reasons why we see less younger male to females and why it seems like there's more female to males.
The first is I think it's a little easier for F2M to come out. I might get whacked for saying that.
I also think it's because the female brain developes quicker. Which puts them ahead of the M2F in working it all out.
They're also more willing to stand up and shout about trams issues.
Also, I think there's a lot more M2F out there than you think.
I'm 100% stealth, I moved not long after coming out and was young at the time. I've got a few people who know, but all are family or my 2 best friends, I don't talk about teams stuff with people outside of here and on a second Facebook account. I've gone to huge lengths to hide my past and I'm sure there's 1000s of others out there who've done the same. Yes we have teen trans girls like Jazz,but for every Jazz there's another 10000 who hide their past and just live.
Quote from: Jasper93 on August 22, 2015, 03:13:07 AM
Why in the world are there so few trans women, pretty much anywhere, who are in their late-teens early-20s??? I encounter many who started in their 40s, but I'm feeling pretty lonely unless I'm searching pretty hardcore on Tumblr.
Several factors:
* It is very, very hard for a teen to be willing to single herself out. The teen years are times when we put the most energy figuring out where we fit in the world. This is a hard, painful process for most people, even those who are cis and straight. Factor in issues of gender identity and sexual orientation (since these are tightly tied together) and the process can seem terrifying and insurmountable.
* There are a lot of MtFs, but not all of us had the female-in-a-male-body-always-knew-from-the youngest-age-hate-our-body experiences. Many of us just felt uncomfortable as males. It takes us years to figure it all out and then more years to become sure that being female is right for us.
* Those teen MtFs that I do know, tend to be very cagey. They tell no one but their closest friends. When they do transition, they try to move to a stealth footing as soon as they can. They just want to fade into the womanscape.
* And then there's Suzi's theory of natural selection. I think there might be something that has evolved in our brains that is capable of ignoring our gender into middle age (until we can reproduce). Those people that don't have this capability are less likely to reproduce and therefore less likely to pass their genes on. It was that way for me. In my 20s and 30s my motivation was to meet a woman and get married. Once that was in my past, I had the motivational space to work on why I felt so uncomfortable in this arrangement.
I'm 22 and plan, am going to, hope to transition.
Just need to call this person
*profusely starts sweating*
just... call... this person
I wanted to at 16 but my home situation didn't allow it. Not that it's any different now ::)
I'm poor, my family's poor and uneducated. I think that's the killer for a lot of girls.
They are around, just not very visible.
When one knows, at an early age, and the drive is strong enough, you do what you have to do to make things happen. I started fighting against my gender assignment by age 13, started hormones at 17, and had SRS at 24 before disappearing into the woodwork.
When you have fought hard from an early age, you want nothing more than to just vanish into "normal life" ASAP.
There are a lot of 20 something's here.
You won't find teens here because their support network is different.
And remember widespread transition when young is relatively new. Even publicly transitioning post teen as in your case supported by the medical establishment is relatively newish. Years ago they would be told by their therapists to simply blend in and hide.
Those who transitioned early on years ago self medicated and did lots of dangerous things to get hormones including buying them off the street and sex work (which is still done today incidentally).
I started at around 19 and a half and am now soon to be turning 21. I'm only out to a few close friends but other than that I'm in full stealth. As some of the girls have mentioned, we just live our lives as normal girls and try to think nothing of it. Also, for some young mtf girls, they are pretty young and may not be able to financially sustain themselves if their family doesn't support them.
Less young trans women on this site because different age groups rely on different kinds of online support. I'm maybe an outlier, as I used forums really similar to this as a teenager. If you want to find most of the 16-25 year old trans women, go to the tumblr mtf tag :P
As for why you meet less trans women than trans men in your day to day life? That's an interesting question. Maybe trans women transition later on average. I'd say that realising you're a trans woman takes some time. I wouldn't have realised if I weren't in the gay community already and didn't meet trans women a lot.
I'd also suggest that trans men and trans women usually have a set amount of time before they leave the LGBT community to go stealth. Gay and non-binary people don't have this option (gay and non binary trans people also don't have this option, and they do exist) so they would stick around in those spaces longer. From what I've seen with trans women I've met who are around my age, once they get to two years or more they start to pass and then they move on.
If you also consider how terrible society is to gender non-conforming males you can see why it takes some people a while to realise they need to transition. Cross dressing isn't as socially acceptable for us. We know that passing as a woman is going to take a lot of work. All of our media attention is sensationalistic or dehumanising. That definitely plays a part. Trans men can avoid these things to an extent.
Young 20s trans girl here but I'm 25 now, living post transition. I started transition at 19/20 (2009) back then I was trying to find other transitioners my age and never did. I just kind of gave up but like you said tumblr is like the only place I've seen us, we're rare I guess. I did find some of us on youtube but I don't think they're active anymore.
well. I'm 20(just kidding). times are different now, when I was walking 10 miles in snow to get to school I had so much denial it was pathetic , now I just want to make up for all that denial so I more willing to be open. Young trans are luckier because they just soak up the estrogen and blend like a cameleon . I guessing the younger ones most have their groups of friends who know them and feel no need to out themselves. The older ones are looking for friends because a lot have lost everyone , so they are more open to join trans groups.
Look no further than me. I'm 16 and I go to this site at least twice a day.
Great thread!
My theory is we are often raised to think femininity is worse than masculinity which makes us more likely to feel shame and try to hide our inner self than FTMs.
People say "Don't be such a girl!" like that is a bad thing. They don't tend to say, "Don't be such a boy!" you know?
Also dont forget some of us who are now 30 and 40 years post op actually DID transition in our teens or earlier. You meet us now on forums like this and because we are, say, 55 you assume that we transitioned later in life... In my case quite untrue. I once was you... I did transition young even all those decades ago, but I've done a bit of living since that time and so I now look older. Ive had a great life, a topline high flying career, and never once encounted pejudice or hostility, so don't be spooked by any doom and gloom merchants, it was possible be very successful even back in the 1960's 70's and 80's.
They tend to fight it more, at least in my experience. It all depends on your location though, where I live I'm the only transgender person I know of.
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Quote from: Nicole on August 22, 2015, 04:24:50 AM
The first is I think it's a little easier for F2M to come out. I might get whacked for saying that.
I think you're right about that one. Sexism at work.
Quote from: Nicole on August 22, 2015, 04:24:50 AM
I also think it's because the female brain developes quicker. Which puts them ahead of the M2F in working it all out.
Umm, what? The whole point of the condition is that we have female brains in male bodies, running on the wrong hormone, it's true.
I wonder if as society becomes more accepting, young MTF's will become much more visible prompting more young people to have the courage to transition- sort of like a positive cycle.
I'm 26 and would have loved to transition in college. It maybe my single largest regret so far in life. It would have been the perfect opportunity to do so. However, I didn't because I thought two things- 1)that I would eventually outgrow these feelings as I pursued other dreams of mine (a successful job, a wife, etc. 2)I was terribly afraid of being alone and not being able to relate to anyone.
Had society been more accepting of trans women and they were more visible at my school, my mental walls may not have seemed so large.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on August 22, 2015, 03:08:05 PM
Also dont forget some of us who are now 30 and 40 years post op actually DID transition in our teens or earlier. You meet us now on forums like this and because we are, say, 55 you assume that we transitioned later in life... In my case quite untrue. I once was you... I did transition young even all those decades ago, but I've done a bit of living since that time and so I now look older. Ive had a great life, a topline high flying career, and never once encounted pejudice or hostility, so don't be spooked by any doom and gloom merchants, it was possible be very successful even back in the 1960's 70's and 80's.
The same here. I knew what I needed to do at 13, I was able to work at it when I hit 23, had my surgery at 30 and am now 64. I was so early the I couldn't of obtained medical care much earlier but all that time I knew surgery was my only option. I didn't mention it to anybody between 13 and 23 because I knew nothing could be done about it.
Quote from: Dena on August 22, 2015, 03:57:22 PM
The same here. I knew what I needed to do at 13, I was able to work at it when I hit 23, had my surgery at 30 and am now 64. I was so early the I couldn't of obtained medical care much earlier but all that time I knew surgery was my only option. I didn't mention it to anybody between 13 and 23 because I knew nothing could be done about it.
Yes well I guess I was just a bit pushier than you. Transition at 5, brief detransition from 17 to 24 due to lack of blockers, SRS at 25, and in between I never stopped talking about what I "really" was, so of course I got into all sorts of strange situations with people.
I'm 19 and I'm at this point in my transition I'm living half an half, once I'm living full time or post transition I plan on hiding and concealing my past to the best of my abilities, and I would assume most young people like me would be trying to do the same.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on August 22, 2015, 04:09:02 PM
Yes well I guess I was just a bit pushier than you. Transition at 5, brief detransition from 17 to 24 due to lack of blockers, SRS at 25, and in between I never stopped talking about what I "really" was, so of course I got into all sorts of strange situations with people.
You are also a kid at almost 10 years younger than me and started your transition about 5 year after me. Not to say it was any easer for you than for me but treatment was going through a great deal of change around that time.
Quote from: Dena on August 22, 2015, 04:17:25 PM
You are also a kid at almost 10 years younger than me and started your transition about 5 year after me. Not to say it was any easer for you than for me but treatment was going through a great deal of change around that time.
Blimey :o 10 years older - so you are 65 now? In which case if your avatar is a recent pic you are doing incredibly well - I'm genuinely shocked. Well done.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on August 22, 2015, 04:31:25 PM
Blimey :o 10 years older - so you are 65 now? In which case if your avatar is a recent pic you are doing incredibly well - I'm genuinely shocked. Well done.
No, the picture is about 30 years old. I have done a pretty good job of staying behind the camera and that's the latest one I have from before I was scalped. Expect another picture in a few months that will show a few more wrinkles and gray hair that hasn't been permed.
Quote from: Ms Grace on August 22, 2015, 03:22:23 AM
I think that for a lot of people, even if they recognise they are transgender they fight against it because of social and family expectations. Our society is also not very kind towards "effeminate men" and women are frequently seen as inferior. A common story is that many transwomen try to "man up" through various macho activities in the hope they can macho the trans out of themselves. Also at that age it can be difficult to sort the various challenges of transition out unless you have a lot of professional and family support. I started to transition at age 23 but after two years I pretty much imploded due to the lack of both those.
I think that nails it.
In my country there was exactly one prominent early trans woman from my era and she was basically a pariah. Everyone else hid, gave up or moved overseas (me).
Good question, I know for sure I have wanted to transition since I could even understand what that meant, but being raised fundamental Christian and being involved in the community's church and having society place so many expectations on you I had to hold it off till this year. (I am 31)
Truth is I wish I could have started HRT back when I was as young as possible, but I feel happy I was able to start them while in my '30s because I am still young enough. I think we will find in the upcoming years as trans people gain more attention and are (hopefully) more accepted it wont be a big deal.
In fact at my Universalist Unitarian church which accepts trans people, a mother introduced me to her child who was gender fluid and they seemed to be like 6 years old and super proud. So us 'dinosaurs' will become more of a rarity as society progresses and people will probably be fascinated by those MtF ladies who literally lived two lifetimes.
I officially started my transition at the age of 21, SRS at 25 and I am 26 now.
I do wish I had started earlier, I secretly wished I was female from about the age of 5 (imagining what it would be like to wear the pretty dress), started cross dressing at 13 (ok wearing pantyhose, later a panty too and even later a cheer leader skirt)... at 19 I decided to explorer my gender issues and also started cross dressing seriously. By wearing full outfits, breast forms wearing makeup, started growing my hair, started shaving my legs and even got my ears pierced. I started seeing a therapist too. I remember during college I often would wear a sports bra or panties under my guy clothes.
21 I started hormones and went full time.
Do really wish I could have transitioned as a teenager and been able to experience being a teenage girl. I know transition as a teenager would have been difficult.
I started at 13 and i'm 16 almost 17 now, I know how you feel. There are a lot of older MTF people who transitioned pretty early, and it's great we have people like them or older MTF's in general because they've seen it all, and usually have good advice. That said, it does get pretty lonely not meeting people your age going through your struggles. The only other MTF my age i've met in person was my girlfriend.
The best ninjas are the ones you never see...
Think about it; that should answer your question, OP.
I'm still fairly young. I came out at 25 and started hormones at 27. I just transferred down to a community college from a somewhat relevant university (ASU), to get closer to UCSD/UCSB and into a more tolerant environment where I can get some procedures covered. It took me a while to come out because I was in the military, but I might never have come out if life hadn't gone to hell there and I was more or less forced out of the closet lol. At any rate, I like to stay stealth for a lot of reasons. It's not safe out there, it seems to be harder to pass as a girl if you were born male, and people really hate "men dressing as women" and "men using women's bathrooms." I think it's a smaller battle and it takes more courage than I have to get up and fight them (especially in person), but I'm looking for ways to end the war. That part is a story for another time though.
To me it seems like one of the biggest expectations of men is that they must treasure their masculinity above pretty much everything else. Many see being physically, mentally, and emotionally male as good things that come with high expectations, and as the pinnacle that any human being can reach. It's why our language has the term tomboy but not a gender appropriate "tomgirl" term, if you will. Anything that applies to a fem guy is pretty much a negative comment or derogatory insult, where as tomboys are seen as being just adorable because they're trying to take steps forward, not backwards as we are. Lots of people still think that men are destined for better things - lots of dreams of having a baby who's going to be a CEO or a president seem to go out the window when someone has a female child. Many men also seem to value female fertility with a heck of a lot of importance.
That's not to say everything is all butterflies and sunshine for genetic men or FtM though. I'm not a believer in white or male privilege, at least in the way that most people toss them around as if privilege is exclusively theirs. Every demographic has perks, problems, and positive and negative attributes and generalizations. For example, white men have the highest rate of suicide of pretty much every demographic. The opposite tends to be true for black women in our society. Black men are often presumed to to be enormous and freakish experts in bed (which is something that most men would like to have assumed about them lol) which is the opposite of what most Asian men get. I guess that's a bit of a tangent but my ultimate point is that it's a lot cooler to want and strive for masculinity than femininity.
Speaking from personal experience, when I was ready to transition at 18, I wanted nothing more than to be able to live in stealth mode.
Now, at 40, after 20 years of repression, stealth isn't important to me. I'd like to able to pass enough to function on a daily basis, but I plan on being upfront about who I am. I don't know if this is common, but from what I've read, I'm certainly not alone. But it is a different world than 20 years ago, so I think you'll find a lot more young women being more open. Good luck!
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I am as young as I feel - and as old as you think I am.
That these two values do not always coincide is an example of Einstein's Law of Relativity.
Quote from: ChiGirl on August 23, 2015, 09:59:47 AM
Speaking from personal experience, when I was ready to transition at 18, I wanted nothing more than to be able to live in stealth mode.
Now, at 40, after 20 years of repression, stealth isn't important to me. I'd like to able to pass enough to function on a daily basis, but I plan on being upfront about who I am. I don't know if this is common, but from what I've read, I'm certainly not alone. But it is a different world than 20 years ago, so I think you'll find a lot more young women being more open. Good luck!
I don't really want to be fully stealth. I just don't want being trans to come up in conversation. For everyone I haven't told, or hasn't known me from before, it simply hasn't come up.
They may know I'm trans, meh. I strongly suspect that many don't, based on interactions I've had with them (eg. I've been asked for hygiene products in the women's restroom). Now with the proper voice, even dressed like a man I won't easily pass like one unless I have a shadow, eg the week after laser, aka now.
But stealth is just too much. I don't bring up gendered terms in the past and after childhood there were few pictures of me. There were some in my adult life with kids but for the most part I'm the one behind the camera, so that worked out. I love some things in my past, and if I could take gender out of it I would. But I can't, so I just live with it.
I'm 21 myself.
I have a hard time deciding whether I want to actually go 'stealth' or not. I feel that there is still so much negativity coming towards us. As much as I want to be an advocate for transgendered individuals and as much as I want to help everybody, I have realized that I simply can't take all the pressure. I'm very strong, not only through this journey, but I will not let too much negativity into my life. I'm of a gentle nature and I don't understand all the hatred in the world.
I would guess I pass, I don't get weird looks, but I do have things I could improve on as well as most other people.
One thing I do know is that I don't go around telling people about my past, it's generally none of their business. I prefer being treated like a normal individual, don't we all deserve that?
I'm 17 years old myself, and have had inklings about myself being transgender for a while before I even began seriously questioning, but I would have to say that you see fewer of us at a young age because of how society tends to be more "accepting" (for lack of a better world) then non-conforming women (non girly women) or trans men that it seems to be the other way around; due to old stereotypes about men needing to be manly and tough and such; so trans women like me may be scared of coming out due to those types of things.
Quote from: Jasper93 on August 22, 2015, 03:13:07 AM
Hi everyone,
So, I'm mtf, which a lot of people don't believe, but I am. I'm also 21, and started transitioning at age 20, in early-college. I determined that I had to do this, as years of abusing steroids, as well as trying to embrace the gender I'm expected to be, only caused distress.
I've been through an unbelievable amount of hardship, as many trans women have, solely to be myself. But the thing is, I look gg, and a lot of the unacceptance has come from my then-family. If you're familiar with VICE on HBO, they interviewed me with my story the other day (which will be featured), mainly because I attend a pretty relevant university, fortunately.
And that's the thing -- attending the GLBT-receptive powerhouse that I do, one would think that I'd run into a lot of trans girls, especially considering that I live in their learning community designed specifically for transgender/gender-queer people. But I'm the only mtf here that I've heard about in the learning community, and one of three that I've heard about across campus (47k people). For every trans woman, there seems to be three or so trans men. For every trans man, there's like 2 gender-queer people.
Why in the world are there so few trans women, pretty much anywhere, who are in their late-teens early-20s??? I encounter many who started in their 40s, but I'm feeling pretty lonely unless I'm searching pretty hardcore on Tumblr.
I'm 17 and an mtf, so I understand how you feel. cx
-Naomi
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I'm 18 and mtf too, and I agree with you, I will start college and was assigned with a ftm guy as roomate, I dont know why but I thought I would have been assigned with a trans woman but apparently I'm probably the only one there, which is very meh, but whatever... I think a lot of trans girls either prefer to be stealth or do not have the support to transition, which is my case, I don't have support and I'm currently self-medicating, so yeah...
Oh just turned 20 here so I count I guess. Do you think I am primary or secondary?
I thought we stopped using this primary/secondary bull->-bleeped-<- long ago... :o
Quote from: Ange on August 24, 2015, 07:28:46 AM
I thought we stopped using this primary/secondary bull->-bleeped-<- long ago... :o
Agreed.
The problem with the primary/secondary theory is that those who use it will never view us as women. They either view us as straight men with a fetish or gay men who want to pretend to be women so they can attract men.
There are also numerous social factors that determine the age at which someone transitions, such as abusive parents and local culture.
They also base it on sexual orientation which doesn't make sense because there are young/teen trans people who are homosexual and in same gender relations.
So in other words, don't buy it. It's meant to divide and prop up egos as well as keep the status quo by justifying more gatekeeping which kind of gives you a clue as to why people bring it up.
Great Discussion
I don't know about those among us over 50 who have tried to transition before when they were younger. I tried at 19 to transition but in Dunedin New Zealand in the early 80's it was hardly Gay tolerant let alone trans friendly...Didn't even know the word for it. I knew one thing and one thing only...I was a girl not a guy and needed to find a fix. With no resources and nowhere to turn I headed for Australia because I knew I would have a far better chance of getting help...it was too late for me I already had a monkey on my back and until it was gone then transition was not even a consideration.
Sarah T
I'm 21 and on the verge of transitioning, still unsure if I want to. For myself I feel female in every way and would give anything in the world to be able to just flick a switch and become 100% female. The thing that is stopping me for wanting to transition currently is that I know how hard it will be, potentially losing friends I've known for half my life, being open to facing discrimination (especially at an age where I'm looking to start a career), and worrying about not being able to fit in at an age where I'm in the prime of my life.
Also knowing that some people in situations similar to myself may also have depression or social anxiety which stops them from coming out as their true self or are afraid of rejection from family members/friends/doctors. One of my biggest fears is going to a gender therapist and them telling me they don't believe me and not letting me start HRT or something of the like.
Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.
Quote from: jackeTT on August 24, 2015, 09:47:29 AM
I'm 21 and on the verge of transitioning, still unsure if I want to. For myself I feel female in every way and would give anything in the world to be able to just flick a switch and become 100% female. The thing that is stopping me for wanting to transition currently is that I know how hard it will be, potentially losing friends I've known for half my life, being open to facing discrimination (especially at an age where I'm looking to start a career), and worrying about not being able to fit in at an age where I'm in the prime of my life.
Also knowing that some people in situations similar to myself may also have depression or social anxiety which stops them from coming out as their true self or are afraid of rejection from family members/friends/doctors. One of my biggest fears is going to a gender therapist and them telling me they don't believe me and not letting me start HRT or something of the like.
Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.
This is something I faced for a long time too.
Understand, that I am a very logical person. I don't let emotion influence my decisions as much, which is surprising given that I am a very emotional person.
I always thought that I would never look like a woman, I would never be able to give birth, I would never be able to shake off the accident of my birth. I would never have children if I transitioned. So I tried to be a married man and have children and enjoy that part of my life. I got the kids I wanted but sadly, I still could not live as him.
Every dream was an instant switch from male to female. Magic wands, magic potions, scientific contraptions, surgeries. All in my mind. I never would be satisfied with simple gender transition as we know it today, and I probably never will be.
But make no mistake this is the best way to manage my gender dysphoria so life is somewhat livable now.
I'm 21 and I'm a MtF trans woman :))
Quote from: iKate on August 24, 2015, 07:42:17 AM
Agreed.
The problem with the primary/secondary theory is that those who use it will never view us as women. They either view us as straight men with a fetish or gay men who want to pretend to be women so they can attract men.
There are also numerous social factors that determine the age at which someone transitions, such as abusive parents and local culture.
They also base it on sexual orientation which doesn't make sense because there are young/teen trans people who are homosexual and in same gender relations.
So in other words, don't buy it. It's meant to divide and prop up egos as well as keep the status quo by justifying more gatekeeping which kind of gives you a clue as to why people bring it up.
Your claim about sexual orientation being a factor isn't correct, that's more related to the fairly thoroughly debunked theory of autogynephillia. Primary/Secondary is a diagnostic term. Its about chronology of symptoms. That's all. It has no social meaning. Much like when people misuse the term "true transsexual", its merely an older scientific/diagnostic term. it doesn't mean anyone is more or less trans* than anyone else, it was used to describe the intensity of symptoms in relation to the desire for surgery. Primaries can and do transition late, and secondaries can and do transition early. Again, its a medical term about symptoms, that's all. Its not about "gate keeping" or any other such nonsense. Arguments against diagnostic terminology are sometimes valid but, more often than not, they're politically motivated. I, personally, don't buy into a lot of transgenderist rhetoric.
Quote from: FreyasRedemption on August 22, 2015, 01:20:08 PM
Look no further than me. I'm 16 and I go to this site at least twice a day.
I'm 16 as well. However, I've been spending a good amount of time on here since I've had nothing else to do haha, but I enjoy it. People are nice, school is not. Brings a balance.
Quote from: Isabelle on August 24, 2015, 09:45:25 PM
Your claim about sexual orientation being a factor isn't correct, that's more related to the fairly thoroughly debunked theory of autogynephillia. Primary/Secondary is a diagnostic term. Its about chronology of symptoms. That's all. It has no social meaning. Much like when people misuse the term "true transsexual", its merely an older scientific/diagnostic term. it doesn't mean anyone is more or less trans* than anyone else, it was used to describe the intensity of symptoms in relation to the desire for surgery. Primaries can and do transition late, and secondaries can and do transition early. Again, its a medical term about symptoms, that's all. Its not about "gate keeping" or any other such nonsense. Arguments against diagnostic terminology are sometimes valid but, more often than not, they're politically motivated. I, personally, don't buy into a lot of transgenderist rhetoric.
A diagnostic description according to whom? A quick check of the appropriate professional publications shows no accepted current reference to this concept. My therapist, a member of WPATH and ANZPATH, also dismisses this concept as outdated thinking..
According to the person whom's website I linked to (a trans* person who happens to be a psychologist) Anyway, I don't want the thread to get locked so, that's all I'm going to say.
Quote from: Isabelle on August 24, 2015, 09:45:25 PMI, personally, don't buy into a lot of transgenderist rhetoric.
I don't either. In fact it annoys me (a lot) how some trans activists try to harm the progress of science in the name of a greater political cause. And sometimes succeed.
But the whole primary/secondary is just scientifically plain wrong. And it's damaging for our understanding of how the transidentity works. It was already demonstrated that the reality is a lot more complex than this theory.
Now I am not saying that there can't be two different kind of ->-bleeped-<-, as there are strong leads that that could be the case. But if there are two different kind, this is unlikely to be as simple as primary/secondary and is more likely to do with body dysphoria vs gender dysphoria and the way they interact.
I'll write a thread about it for us to discuss it, since this is obviously not the place.
Admin Edit: Removed foul language per TOS #11
Quote from: Isabelle on August 25, 2015, 01:21:40 AM
According to the person whom's website I linked to (a trans* person who happens to be a psychologist) Anyway, I don't want the thread to get locked so, that's all I'm going to say.
Ray Blanchard was a psychologist too. Credentials really don't mean much, there are quacks everywhere.
There are reasons people go through the motions in life then suddenly realize they have been living a lie. Lynn Conway was married with children pre transition and is one of the most respected trans people today, and had lived stealth for years and is now remarried to a man. She doesn't fit either the mold of "primary" or "secondary." Many others don't.
Back on topic. please. ->-bleeped-<- discussions are not allowed on the site. Thank you.
Hugs, Devlyn
could be just peer pressure. young are a lot more vulnerable to how they are perceived and accepted. If they can do stealth why wouldn't they . their bodies change better so they can blend. Plus it is dangerous to be young and trans.
ive seen a lot on ->-bleeped-<-
I'm 24 and been transitioning since 21, I'm friends with a few girls my age, go to a trans support group
Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
Quote from: stephaniec on August 25, 2015, 11:21:54 AM
could be just peer pressure. young are a lot more vulnerable to how they are perceived and accepted. If they can do stealth why wouldn't they . their bodies change better so they can blend. Plus it is dangerous to be young and trans.
depending on where you live and where you walk around, too dangerous sometimes.
I personally have never seen a Transperson here, even Gay people are afraid and dont go out late because big-boss-macho-boys need to be homophob and beat up everything that is male and looks feminine.
Hi!! Im 18 here mtf, just started transition, and going back to college in a couple days from now! Im so worried, but glad Im being myself. I didn't know i was transgender until a couple months ago. Anyone have any advice? I go to a conservative college, so I have not that much help from school, but trying my best, and pretty sure Im one of the first transgender people who went to my college. Its an urban college though.
I don't think I look like a boy too much really, I just have short hair right now and people knew me before . But I'm worried people would see me as a boy still and get discriminated.. I just wish this process was easier!
Any help and support would be much appreciated, I would attach a photo but don't know how to.
Any advice about going back to the same college as trans would be much appreciated! My overall goal is to feel equal and normal.
Quote from: Haradonia on August 28, 2015, 11:47:27 AM
Any help and support would be much appreciated, I would attach a photo but don't know how to.
Any advice about going back to the same college as trans would be much appreciated!
You are not able to attach your picture until you have 15 or more posts here.
Good for you for staying in college. If you're transitioning it may be helpful to speak one to one with your faculty members and explain your situation. If they are at all compassionate and fair they will want to facilitate your education and may help ensure the classroom atmosphere is safe and reasonable for you. If you let them know your preferred name and gender pronouns they may even become your allies. In most urban centers there are LGBT support groups that may help you.
Equality is your right
Back to the original post. I have met a number of teenaged transitioners and they seem far less interested in the labels and organized trans groups vs just hanging with their peers and blending in.
Quote from: Haradonia on August 28, 2015, 11:47:27 AM
Hi!! Im 18 here mtf, just started transition, and going back to college in a couple days from now! Im so worried, but glad Im being myself. I didn't know i was transgender until a couple months ago. Anyone have any advice? I go to a conservative college, so I have not that much help from school, but trying my best, and pretty sure Im one of the first transgender people who went to my college. Its an urban college though.
I don't think I look like a boy too much really, I just have short hair right now and people knew me before . But I'm worried people would see me as a boy still and get discriminated.. I just wish this process was easier!
Any help and support would be much appreciated, I would attach a photo but don't know how to.
Any advice about going back to the same college as trans would be much appreciated! My overall goal is to feel equal and normal.
Avatar pictures require fifteen posts, posting a picture in a thread can be done by any member at any time. You need to use an image hosting site, they are free and easy to use. I use Photobucket, they give you the code to post. It looks like this (asterisks added by me to break the code):
[IMG***]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y537/DevlynMarie/Hull%20gut%20sun%20set-2_zpspojm5xdn.jpg[/img]
Take out the asterisks and voila! Hull Gut sunset.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1279.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy537%2FDevlynMarie%2FHull%2520gut%2520sun%2520set-2_zpspojm5xdn.jpg&hash=a4468f4f40195486c7cb0dac070c463523d05009)
Quote from: Jasper93 on August 22, 2015, 03:13:07 AM
And that's the thing -- attending the GLBT-receptive powerhouse that I do, one would think that I'd run into a lot of trans girls, especially considering that I live in their learning community designed specifically for transgender/gender-queer people. But I'm the only mtf here that I've heard about in the learning community, and one of three that I've heard about across campus (47k people). For every trans woman, there seems to be three or so trans men. For every trans man, there's like 2 gender-queer people.
Why in the world are there so few trans women, pretty much anywhere, who are in their late-teens early-20s??? I encounter many who started in their 40s, but I'm feeling pretty lonely unless I'm searching pretty hardcore on Tumblr.
At least part of the reason has got to be because of an artificial estrogen called DES, that was at one time the standard treatment in pregnancies where the mother was thought to be at risk of having a miscarriage or giving birth prematurely. During its heyday in the 1950s and 60s, some doctors were giving it to all their pregnant patients, and it was even being added to pregnancy vitamins. Between 1940 and about 1980 (by which time it had largely been withdrawn from use), DES was used in an estimated 4.8 million pregnancies within the US, and (I've been told) a roughly equal number of pregnancies elsewhere. So, roughly 10 million pregnancies in total, most of which resulted in live births, and half of which presumably involved genetically male babies.
Under the standard dosing schedule, the doses used were absolutely colossal, the cumulative dose over the course of a typical DES pregnancy being about 11 grams (roughly the same amount of artificial estrogen as is contained in half a million birth control pills), with by far the heaviest exposure occurring during the second half of the pregnancy (which is when the brain development responsible for gender identity later in life is thought to take place).
While the "DES daughters" who were exposed to this treatment in the womb are acknowledged to have abnormalities of their internal reproductive organs, and high rates of infertility and several kinds of cancer, the official line has always been that the "DES sons" came through their exposure virtually unscathed - no increased risk of cancer, infertility or anything else, apart from a modestly higher rate of "noncancerous epididymal cysts". However, from what I've seen, the male assigned people who were exposed to DES were in fact profoundly affected by their exposure. It's just that what happened to them is so awful that nobody wants to admit to it, and the medical and pharmaceutical industry people who know about it have all closed ranks to keep the public in the dark about it.
Basically, in a male fetus, DES causes whatever development is taking place during the time the exposure is going on, to take place as female instead of male. Because the exposure during the first trimester was usually relatively light, most of those exposed have come out with male genitals (albeit often with intersex-related abnormalities such as undescended testes or hypospadias). Instead, their brain development has been the main thing affected. The usual outcome seems to be that you end up with someone who looks male but whose brain has predominantly developed as female. Not surprisingly, the people who've had this happen to them often end up with a strong inner sense of being a woman, despite having a male body.
A fair number of those I've chatted to have physical intersex-related abnormalities too, and it seems to be very common for those of us who've had these hormone exposures to end up with chronically abnormal hormones later in life. But the main thing for most of us seems to be that it's messed up our gender identity (in my case, it's kind of a mixture of male and female rather than being fully female). Considering how widely it was used, and that not many people know what drugs they were exposed to before birth, I think DES could well be the main cause of MTF transsexuality in the over 40s age group.
Fascinating, is there much research published on this? I'd love to learn more
I started my transition at 24. I had been seeing a gender therapist at 21 but he retired before I could get referred to the endo. He was the only gender therapist in my area and they didn't find a replacement for him for a while. I understood I was trans when I was 8, realized I wasn't alone at 12 and showed signs much earlier.
Social pressure is what held me back. It took me years to work up the courage to grow my hair (or do many other trivial things) because I thought it I did someone would guess I felt as though I should be a girl and felt that would have been a bad thing. I had major social anxieties in my youth and the last thing I wanted was to stand out more
hi yo im a 17 yr old trans grrl
Quote from: Isabelle on August 29, 2015, 08:35:28 PM
Fascinating, is there much research published on this? I'd love to learn more
Since joining this site in 2014, I've been putting most of what I find in this thread:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,84224.0.html
There's a fair bit of published literature about DES's effects on natal women, but almost nothing about its effects on natal males. I first found out about it from a book called "Brain Sex", which talks about sexual dimorphism in the brain, and how the differences between male and female brains arise in utero, depending on whether the fetus is exposed to androgenic hormones or not. Although it doesn't say anything about gender identity, one of the things mentioned in passing in that book, is that teenaged "DES sons" often show a characteristic pattern of very shy, socially withdrawn behaviour,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FBrainSex_ch2009_zps8f4ae3b5.gif&hash=f28fd124c627a273063d12e8734af3f1b2c39ede)
"What happened with Jim was that the extra female hormone had feminised his brain while it was developing".
Everything it describes in that section (other than the bit about electronics and chemistry) is a very close match to my own life as a teenager, and it's how I originally found out about DES, and the fact that there are quite a lot of people alive today who've had their brain development altered by being prenatally exposed to manmade hormones.
While DES has feminizing properties, there's also quite a few hormones that have been used during pregnancy that have androgenizing properties (driving male development in biologically female fetuses), and this, and the way girls exposed to them in the womb often have masculinized behaviour, gets mentioned several times in the book. They don't say anything about gender identity though. I think this is because "Brain Sex" is quite an old book (first published 1989), and at the time it was written, the prevailing view was that babies are born "gender neutral" and that the gender you identify as later in life depends on how people treat you during early childhood. There was no internet in those days, and most of us from that time period had never even heard of being trans and were doing our best to fit in as our assigned sex. If you went back now and talked to the people in the case studies in that book, I think you'd find that a lot of them are actually trans.
Most of the books on DES were written by DES mothers and daughters, and focus primarily on the effects on women. It's my opinion that all the institutions and organizations involved in the DES disaster (who are also the same people that are supposed to be investigating what harm it's done), have, since about 1980, not been doing any serious research into its effects at all, but have instead been trying to downplay the whole thing as much as possible (and particularly its effects on natal males). When a pharmaceutical industry disaster affects a few thousand people, they can afford to make a big show of compensating the victims, but when millions are affected, it looks like their approach is to avoid any admission of liability and to try and bury the whole thing as quickly as possible. If you look at what little published research into DES sons there is, in most of it, they've done things like selecting people whose exposure was far smaller than typical, or where treatment didn't start until late in the pregnancy (which greatly reduces the likelihood of physical abnormalities). The only studies I found looking at DES-exposed natal males who'd been exposed to the standard DES miscarriage treatment, were 3 studies looking at the offspring of mothers from the original study in the 1950s that showed that DES was completely ineffective at preventing miscarriage. I think I've mentioned them in the DES thread. The main finding was that sperm production was much lower in the DES exposed group - on average, just half as many sperm cells per ml as the control group, and a considerably smaller ejaculate volume too. Unfortunately their hormone analysis was incomplete and didn't include estradiol or SHBG, but I think if it had, it would have shown considerably lower testosterone production and free T in the DES sons group (which would explain why most of us seem to have signs of chronic below normal male testosterone production).
Some of the other research I found includes a 1977 study showing that the world's top psychologists already knew at that stage, that prenatal exposure to pharmaceutical hormones (estrogens and progestins) produces measureable, lifelong alterations to the personalities and behaviour of the exposed children. That gets mentioned in the DES thread too. Estrogens stopped being used during pregnancy altogether shortly after that study was published, however progestins remain in use even now, in pregnancies where the mother has a history of recurrent premature birth, or is otherwise thought to be at risk of going into premature labour. Whether that's enough to explain why so many kids seem to be being born trans recently, I don't know. Estrogens and progestins are also the magic ingredients in birth control pills and other forms of women's hormonal contraception, so there's always the possibility of exposure occurring if the mother doesn't realise she's pregnant. It's also possible that medicines which aren't hormones themselves, but interfere with hormone metabolism (such as phenobarbital), could be a cause of ->-bleeped-<- too.
At the very least, it's blatantly obvious that there was a problem with DES. There was a study published in 2005 in which 150 out of 500 of the DES "sons" in the study identified as women. The only place I've seen the DES - trans connection talked about in any depth in print though, is a chapter in Deborah Rudacille's book "The Riddle of Gender". There's a Google Books preview of that chapter here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oVHcOYz4jM8C&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=des+sons+teleconference&source=bl&ots=hbgJX5wbu9&sig=l5oNWx6_DJ84ytSNdSoeYI2H7j4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCGoVChMI9u6om6euxwIVCbUaCh200A1n#v=onepage&q=des%20sons%20teleconference&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oVHcOYz4jM8C&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=des+sons+teleconference&source=bl&ots=hbgJX5wbu9&sig=l5oNWx6_DJ84ytSNdSoeYI2H7j4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCGoVChMI9u6om6euxwIVCbUaCh200A1n#v=onepage&q=des%20sons%20teleconference&f=false)
which has quite a lot of pages missing unfortunately.