Well I wanted to open this thread for some time yet, as I'd like to discuss something which is, in my opinion, rather interesting - the feeling of dysphoria and how it differs from person to person.
As I read more and more stories about transpersons, I get the feeling that every single transperson has constructed an identity very different from the others - which is pretty much logical, since every human being constructs a very different identity. "Being trans" often means very different things from persons to persons. This makes it very difficult to dig to the core of what it is to "be trans" since it seems different for everyone.
What interests me a lot is that there seems to be categories of transpersons. Well, "categories" might not be the right term, as the edge is blurry and they are overall permeables.
- trans persons who are already trans as childs.
- trans persons who discover themselves trans at puberty
- trans persons who discover themselves trans later in life
But also :
- trans persons who encounter strong body dysphoria and little gender dysphoria
- trans persons who encounter strong gender dysphoria and little body dysphoria
- trans persons who encounter strong gender AND body dysphoria
So the true question is, why these differences ?
In my opinion, we can only emit hypothesis. I personnally have two different theories. The first is that there is two kinds of transpersons, but they sometimes ressembles each other because of very clear phenomenoms of permeability which would be easy to explain. The second hypothesis is that there is only one kind of transidentity, but it can express itself in very various ways which are all pretty easy to explain.
Note : this is only my personal thinking and rambling. I'm not trying to create a political movement here or whatever, but to gather various point of vues in the hope that, maybe, it will become more clear. (and pardon my english, I'm french and trying my best here ;) )
The "two kinds" hypothesis
Transpersons with strong body dysphoria and no gender dysphoria ; and transpersons with strong gender dysphoria and no body dysphoria. That would initially be two very different situations with different causes.
- Gender dysphoria coming from the identity being constructed that way, for whatever reason.
- Body dysphoria coming from a neuropathological reason, for example.
Now as you are gender dysphoric, you could develop a little (or even high) body dysphoria because of it, or something that would look like a body dysphoria. (in fact body dysphoria could pretty much means two different things here, one hormonal, and the second linked to self-hatred, as some trans are very body-dysphoric without hating their body at all, while other seems to hate their body a lot - both would be relieved by hormones anyway)
And as a body-dysphoric, you could easily develop a little (or even high) gender dysphoria because of it, or something that would look like a gender dysphoria. Either because you feel like you are not recognized as who you are, or because it is the only way one's find to talk about a problem that is very hard to put into words. (how do you describe body dysphoria... ? I tried for 10 years, and the best thing I found was "sadness of the body")
Now, this could be linked (or not) with the age you discover it.
- Body-dysphoric could be mainly discovered at adolescence, when hormones are going wild
- Gender-dysphoric could be mainly discovered in childhood, when identity is constructed
- both of them could totally avoid (or deny) the problem and only discover it until later
... Which doesn't mean that a body-dysphoric could not be discovered sooner (as some persons are very sensitive very soon about their body) and a gender-dysphoric later (as some idendity take more time to construct than others).
The "one kind expressing differently" hypothesis
Everyone begin with the same setup, but it expresses differently for tons of different reasons. Meaning that we are all gender dysphoric (that became body dysphoric because of it), or body dysphoric (that became gender dysphoric because of it)
Early in life, you already feel slightly dysphoric. But you are young. If you are very sensitive AND if you understand intuitively this is a matter of sexuation, you might talk about it. If you live in an environnement which put emphasis on gender (i.e. the idea that a woman and a man are different at an intellectual level), you might suffer from it and talk quickly about it. On the contrary, if you live in an environnement which doesn't give a damn about gender, you might not see the problem and not especially make a ruckus.
Once you are adolescent, your body will start changing and you will start getting more and more uncomfortable or unreal. If by now you are still in a environnement that pressures you gender-wise, you will likely suffer a big deal from it, have suicidal thoughts, etc. Now that boys and girls are very different, you begin to understand better that you are on the wrong side. But you are a normal adolescent human being, and the ways you can deal with that are INFINITE. You can totally deny it and live with it. You can think you are not normal and take testosterone to normalize yourself. You can find strange ways to retaliate. You can try to live with it. Etc.
It would explain every situations. You can discover your transidentity at any age, because it's a complex alchemy taking into account your sensitivity, your environment, your understanding of sexuation, your ability to admit it, your personnal experience in life, the construction of your identity, ... Any age is possible, but some milestones (like adolescence) are more likely to trigger it.
Whether the initial problem is body or gender dysphoria doesn't invalidate the idea that some people can become strongly gender dysphoric and some other strongly body dysphoric.
A word on "gender" and "sexual orientation" from my experience
I won't make any hypothesis here, just talking about myself. But maybe what I experienced is somehow universal.
I grew up in a feminist family where no one really cared about gender. As a result, gender is something that I totally don't get. For me, human beings are human beings. Some have vaginas, some have penises. Most try to conform to what the society projects for them.
When I was adolescent, I suffered from gender dysphoria. I wanted to be seen as a woman, I wanted to wear dresses... But funnily enough, years later, I managed to totally free myself from it and understand that this was total bull->-bleeped-<-. The thing is, I was just lonely. Lonely in this body of a man, without anyone aknowledging the problem. I needed someone to tell me "it's ok, I know you're a girl, I know you're suffering". It would have eased the discomfort, and somehow weaken the dysphoria in the process. Because your body is closely related to your mind, and if there's a problem with your body, there's a problem with your mind. Your body is your way to interact with the whole world, to love it - and having the wrong body prevents you from interacting.
But everything related to gender became quickly bull->-bleeped-<- to me. It never made really sense anyway. I had very feminine boy friends and very masculine girl friends. There was no feminine trait that I didn't see in at least a boy, and no masculine trait that I didn't see in at least a girl. The gender was not making sense.
I have a sister and honnestly, she's the most masculine girl you can imagine, gender-wise. She's petite and pretty, but she's a real boy inside. And I also have a friend which is hairy and manly physically, but a total girl inside. Both of them are the best absolute transgender you can imagine, and none of them transitionned. And none of them even thought about it. Because they feel good in their body. Why would they ? Well, both of them are homosexual which is kinda interesting.
On the contrary, honnestly, I am not really the ideal girl. I don't identify to women. I'm more of a tomboy. But I always thought I had to transition, and now I'm doing it and I'm really happy. Now all of this could very well be just a weird way of expressing a gender identity. But I think I just have a problem with my body, and that's all. Gender has nothing to do with it, and I am not in the slightest transgender, even though I sweared I was when I was 17 yo. I'm transexuate.
Now on sexuality... I always liked (or admired) girls, but when I had to love one of them, at 17, it was quite difficult. I had to learn to love. First kiss felt a little gross, first body contact, a bit uncomfortable... As if love was something I had to learn. Then I had a few sexual intercourses, and a lot more with my wife, and some of them were... Very good. :P So in the end, I thought I was quite into girls and not at all into boys.
Funny enough, I recently fell in love with a boy, and I'm experiencing the exact same things a second time... Repulsion turning slowly into desire, as I learn to love the person and to accept the physical interaction.
Which makes me think that love is something you learn, and that sexuality is something educated. A lot of my friend that thought they were hetero discovered they were bi instead. The society, the environment made them think that there was only one option for them. And because hetero is easier, why would they think twice about it ?
So this may only be my experience, and maybe it's not universal. But somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if :
- transitionners were mostly transexuate persons initially
- every human being was initially bisexual, but educated to be heterosexual. (reasons for being homosexual being various, ->-bleeped-<- being one of them)
Would trans people disappear in a world where gender is eliminated ?
Provided that gender cannot be totally eliminated, as the physical has some influence on the mental. But in a society where 99% of the gender pressure has disappeared, where everyone can use the same clothes, go to the same bathroom, and where intellectually speaking there is no educated difference between boys and girls... Would trans people disappear ?
Well, I guess it depends on the theory above.
- If there is body dysphoric and gender dysphoric transpersons, it is likely that the gender dysphoric ones will disappear, and only the body dysphoric will remain. It will be a lot harder for them to find their problem and to solve it.
- If there is only gender dysphoric persons, then it is likely that all transpersons will disappear and everyone will live happily ever after
- If there is only body dysphoric persons, then it is likely that it won't change the fact that transpersons exists, but they will most likely : (1) suffer a lot less from it ; and (2) have a harder time understanding their problem.
What do you think ? Personnally, I have a hard time imagining that I wouldn't be trans even in such a society. When I imagine myself as the most feminine boy possible in such a society, it still doesn't work. But maybe.
Conclusion
Now my own story and the story of persons I know quite work with both hypothesis anyway. I have a hard time imagining body dysphoria being just a secondary effect of gender dysphoria though, but I know gender dysphoric persons that told me they had a hard time imagining gender dysphoria being a secondary effect of body dysphoria. So maybe there really is two kinds of transpersons.
By creating this thread, I kinda hope people here will share stories and help the whole community make this more clear. Giving feedback and exchanging information is key to understand a little more what "being trans" is.
I don't know. Two kinds of persons implies a binary. I don't think there is a binary. You mention blurred lines. I don't think it is that simple.
There are many social factors that affect the age that people come out. In my country the first sex reassignment operation was not done until the 90s. There may have been a few transsexuals who transitioned living there but the people who seemed likely to transition, myself included, never really did anything about it until we left the country. Expressing gender variance was good reason to put you in the psych ward. I have no idea how that one person managed to transition but she opened the door for others and the local medical community is reporting higher incidences of transsexualism (I hate that word) and transition.
My personal story is that I knew as a child. I absolutely knew as a child. I would have relatives dress me up and I would steal clothes to dress up as a form of release. I hated being a boy so much. But anything other than straight and cis was likely to be a death sentence. Puberty was a depressing time for me. My dad and I had a rocky relationship because I tried to take my life many times. Much of it was gender related. He also did not like feminine aspects of my behavior of which I showed plenty. However I did manage to get married. Twice in fact. As did Lynn Conway. As did many others. We somehow suppressed this feeling for a long while until we couldn't take it anymore. I only really started dating in my early 20s though and the first serious girlfriend I had, we got married. We never had sexual relations though. My current (soon to be ex) wife and I were friends and we got married. We did have 3 kids out of it. I figured; hey having a kid will at least let me express my motherly side by being a parent. I really wanted a child more than anything, even if I couldn't carry it. I ended up starting transition though because I just couldn't live the lie anymore.
So there are primary and secondary aspects in my personal story. That's why I don't fully buy it as a binary.
But in the end though, does it really matter?
I dont believe that sexuality is learned per se. It's true that society is heteronormative but that doesnt mean their training kids to be heterosexual. They're teaching them to suppress feelings that are "undesirable". So on that note i reject the idea that everyone is born bisexual then learned to lean one way, the other, both, or neither.
Interesting, your post has some interesting ideas OP, through I would say that it's mostly a case-by-case issue in how each different person perceives their dysphoria (if they have it) or feelings as a whole.
Quote from: Ange on August 25, 2015, 06:47:14 AM
Would trans people disappear in a world where gender is eliminated ?
Yes, because ALL people would disappear. Gender is an aspect of being human. The only way gender could be eliminated is by eliminating all humans. As long as there are humans, there will be gender.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 25, 2015, 11:17:23 AM
Quote from: Ange on August 25, 2015, 11:17:23 AM
Would trans people disappear in a world where gender is eliminated ?
Yes, because ALL people would disappear. Gender is an aspect of being human. The only way gender could be eliminated is by eliminating all humans. As long as there are humans, there will be gender.
Alternatively NO! because as the OP has clearly recognised for many of us, myself included, this was all about physical SEX and absolutely NOT gender - in other words which set of naughty bits you have between your legs and whether you have boobs or a beard. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in gender zilch - but I did want female reproductive parts and secondary sexual characteristics...
Now given that desire, it was likely that my gender would be read as female, and I'm good with that, but it absolutely was not my motive and therefore in a world without "gender," which I perceive to be largely perceptual and derivative, I would still have transitioned my physical form. Thus those trans people who like me are motivated by the fundamental biology and not in the slightest by the "social software" - would still exist.
It is an interesting dilemma and topic - but in some ways one which requires one to realise that the end result is in essence the same - even though the initial inciting motivation may be different - so in a way what we are discussing is the fact that there are many different routes leading to roughly the same end point
If gender roles were eliminated in society there would still be trans people, because gender is two things; It is who we are and it is who people say we are. The latter is the societal influence. Intrinsically, we have a gender compass. It may not be clearly binary, but in cis-gender people, it's typically well aligned with their sex. In trans-people, it is intrinsically misaligned. So regardless of external influence, you would still feel 'off'. But then, the internal gender compass is what spawned gender roles to begin with. It's not like they are or were independent things. Gender roles had to have come from somewhere. So I don't see them being eliminated completely in any possible scenario, only changed. There will always be differences in behavior that arise from the sexes. Gender lines may blur, but the biological hormonal differences between sexes will always maintain a difference in interactions, which will naturally expand into a societal expectation of interaction between the sexes. It creates order and uniformity, which is what society is about. If society were to collapse, if all interactions were on an individual basis with no 'normality' or expectation in behavior, then everything would slow down and become more complicated. There would no longer be that edge of intuition. You would approach someone and have absolutely no expectation of their... anything. People would likely be more guarded, cautious, alienated. Just think about the confusion when you do encounter someone whom you cannot clearly gender. Granted, that's because you're used to a gender binary. But I believe that confusion would remain even if it were the standard, because we all base a lot of our interactions with people on standard gender cues. So while our views of gender and current gender roles could use an overhaul, I would argue that gender and gender roles in society could serve a useful function. I would push for gender equality, not gender dissolution. I don't think ridding the world of gender roles is practical, realistic, or ultimately beneficial, and I don't think it would do a thing to help trans people. I really believe being trans is a biological abnormality; a birth defect where our personal gender switch is broken. And not having a gender standard in society might even make it more difficult to correct that. Without a standard set of behaviors to aspire to, we might just be burdened with a form of dysphoria that we just couldn't pinpoint... an overall sense that something is wrong, but no way to tell how it's wrong or how to fix it. I mean really, if we had only an internal gender compass with no external validation, I'm not even sure how that would manifest itself or what it would entail. But again, I don't think you can have an internal gender identity and not have that outside reflection of it among everyone else.