I'm contemplating an MTF transition and I was wondering what was the most surprising way you were treated differently when transitioning? I guess I worry that if I do while I would like the physical changes, I might not like all of the social changes. The last thing I'd want is to get social dysphoria in the opposite direction. I suppose a lot of this would depend on whom you work with/ hang out with. I'm just curious.
I think the most surprising thing is how I was treated when I still didn't pass very well. People generally didn't stare, were generally polite, and generally used correct pronouns, salutations, etc.
Most people want to get it right and treat us with respect.
That's nice to hear, I only accepted myself last week so I'm not ready to go out presenting as female yet. I have a fairly androgynous figure, and I honestly have the girliest lips of any human I've met. The only problem is I'm 6'4" with size 13ee feet.
Mostly it's the same, with only a few major differences.
First of all, as a woman you don't have as much of a personal bubble. People touch you more and get close to you when talking more, and people are in general much more open with you. That I love, and I'll never get tired of it, because when people treated me in that standoffish "guy respect" manner I freaking HATED it, and wanted to be treated more openly and kindly.
Be prepared for guys to tell you that you should smile more, or just in general people commenting on your mood and your appearance when you're really not expressing any mood at all, you're just in a neutral facial expression.
And the biggest thing of all is, expect people to not respect your intellectual authority as much. Even I, who finds it affirming, gets REALLY tired of that crap. Basically, people automatically assume that you're not as intelligent, and not as able to do your job. I deal with this all the time at work. I'm a poker dealer. And people used to respect my authority when I told them what a ruling was much more often. Now they're much likely to not trust my judgment, and ask for a ruling from a supervisor to verify what I just told them. People CONSTANTLY talk over me, specifically always telling me what the value of side-pots is supposed to be when there's multiple all-ins on the same hand, and there's many times where I just want to scream "SHUT UP AND LET ME DO MY OWN MATH!" but obviously I can't.
People also don't laugh at my jokes as much, but whatever, I always had a really nerdy obscure sense of humor anyway, so that might just be me. People might have just been humoring me before. :P
Just in general, you're expected to be nicer and more open, you're expected to be in a positive mood all the time, and you're expected to be a pretty face who's not as smart as the people around you. Society is kinda scared of smart capable women who know more than the men around them. And guys, even ones who have no freaking clue what they're talking about, will just assume they're smarter than you because they've been culturally trained that way.
Get ready for that. On the one hand, it's affirming when it happens, because this is how pretty much ALL women who present a feminine gender presentation to the world are treated, but yeah, it's also a royal pain in the butt sometimes because it feels dehumanizing to have people constantly questioning my judgment like that even though I know exactly what I'm doing.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on September 02, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
Mostly it's the same, with only a few major differences.
First of all, as a woman you don't have as much of a personal bubble. People touch you more and get close to you when talking more, and people are in general much more open with you. That I love, and I'll never get tired of it, because when people treated me in that standoffish "guy respect" manner I freaking HATED it, and wanted to be treated more openly and kindly.
Be prepared for guys to tell you that you should smile more, or just in general people commenting on your mood and your appearance when you're really not expressing any mood at all, you're just in a neutral facial expression.
And the biggest thing of all is, expect people to not respect your intellectual authority as much. Even I, who finds it affirming, gets REALLY tired of that crap. Basically, people automatically assume that you're not as intelligent, and not as able to do your job. I deal with this all the time at work. I'm a poker dealer. And people used to respect my authority when I told them what a ruling was much more often. Now they're much likely to not trust my judgment, and ask for a ruling from a supervisor to verify what I just told them. People CONSTANTLY talk over me, specifically always telling me what the value of side-pots is supposed to be when there's multiple all-ins on the same hand, and there's many times where I just want to scream "SHUT UP AND LET ME DO MY OWN MATH!" but obviously I can't.
People also don't laugh at my jokes as much, but whatever, I always had a really nerdy obscure sense of humor anyway, so that might just be me. People might have just been humoring me before. :P
Just in general, you're expected to be nicer and more open, you're expected to be in a positive mood all the time, and you're expected to be a pretty face who's not as smart as the people around you. Society is kinda scared of smart capable women who know more than the men around them. And guys, even ones who have no freaking clue what they're talking about, will just assume they're smarter than you because they've been culturally trained that way.
Get ready for that. On the one hand, it's affirming when it happens, because this is how pretty much ALL women who present a feminine gender presentation to the world are treated, but yeah, it's also a royal pain in the butt sometimes because it feels dehumanizing to have people constantly questioning my judgment like that even though I know exactly what I'm doing.
I understand what you are talking about. I especially understand the hugging thing or getting kissed thing. I used to hate being expected to shake a guys hand.
The men in my family were like this, and now I don't want to have to hug them either. It's like "Hands off creep!" Though yeah, I so often want to just yell that because most of the time I am getting condescended and treated like a 4 yr old right after having to have even been expected to live the male role. I traded one set of "privilege" for another.
Like, I really am a strong personality. I'm smart, I've been through hell, and really am more the type of girl who is standoffish rather than kissing everyone's rear end. Now I seem to get this "It's not that bad" to everything. Sometimes I just would kill to be taken more seriously by my family, but that's a whole different set of issues within itself.
Though what I will say is. I love the feeling of certain guys looking out for me and holding doors open for me! It has that "You're a lady and deserve to be treated like one" kind of ring to it.
Thank you Carrie Liz and CosmicJoke, that's interesting to think about. I am a scientist, and mostly work with scientists and engineers. I would like to think people are treated fairly equally, though obviously it's impossible to know until you're in that position. I have noticed that sometimes my female coworkers get interrupted a lot during meetings, though that's mainly by two guys who are both in their seventies. Anyway, that's some good food for thought.
I find my, beggest fear was ill paced,
My biggest fear was that i would be dis-respected Im not.
The way society has changed towards me is, I am generaly met with much greater repect for being "strong" enough to "do what i do", I am still dis-respected and the hate envolved is much higher, but in general a lot less people are disrespectfull too me, and more people offer more respect.
So many people took it for granted I was smart before and I hated it because when the intelegence qouta wasnt met, I was treated as though I was stupid, And yet now although my intelect has not improved the intelect i do have is seen for what it is, intelect.
And although at times I do have to fight for intelectual credit, all the intelect i get credit for is deserved, and I find it funny when faced with those who actualy dont know, assuming I dont. Because, all it takes is a man to say Im right and then, they feel stupd :D
Yes I hate it has to be a man but meh..... :P
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on September 02, 2015, 02:26:31 PM
Thank you Carrie Liz and CosmicJoke, that's interesting to think about. I am a scientist, and mostly work with scientists and engineers. I would like to think people are treated fairly equally, though obviously it's impossible to know until you're in that position. I have noticed that sometimes my female coworkers get interrupted a lot during meetings, though that's mainly by two guys who are both in their seventies. Anyway, that's some good food for thought.
Yeah, exspect to be interupted, even if its only to say "I know" or "thats beside the point" this one exspecially infuriates me, because "said point?" was cut of before i could get to it.
Men talking to me in that soft baby voice. I did not know that happened at all let alone so regularly in so many situations. Also, I thought cars just never stopped for pedestrians I didn't realize that all I needed was tits and they'd line up to let me cross the street.
What surprised (and exasperated) me was how completely invisible and disregarded I became in the workplace and how every male seemed to regard me as a potential conquest outside of the workplace - it was 1974. Things improved a little before I retired in 2012 but the sexism is still there.
Now that I'm mostly out of the woods with strangers yelling mean things at me in public, I guess the most surprising thing is how guys hit on me. Like, a LOT. Men will bend over backwards for me (which isn't really hard, I do gymnast bridges every day, yanno!) -- they're extra nice to me, not because they're good people, but because I think on some level they think it'll lead to them getting in my pants.
For example, I was getting gas one night after a show. I was at a pump by the edge of the lot, and there was a homeless guy sitting there, screaming. The guy obviously had some kind of mental illness and needed help. But he was screaming at me, "Bitch, gimme a cigarette!"
When I went to pay for my gas, I told the attendant what happened. The gas station had a security guard, oddly enough, and he told the guard. So he came out with me and asked "Where is he, honey?" Or "sweetie" or something along those lines. And he kicked the guy out. I felt safer, but the experience felt so wrong. This guy is black and mentally ill, so we're exiling him further and further from society. And since I'm this pretty white woman, the guard was more than happy to help me. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know what a good solution would be, but there has to be a better one than that.
Let's see it's really a mixed bag I'm starting to register more as cis better but initially I had a five o'clock shadow that make up couldn't cover. So I used to get a lot of stares got he'd a lot and what ever. While during that same time period I would get catcallled a lot. I am noticing people being more friendly to me lately like when I'm out in public they will open doors for me and smile if I make I contact.
I too have noticed how less people laugh at my jokes. Usually they react with shock because my jokes can be really bad and sometimes rather disturbing.
I guess early on I did got a lot of stares definitely some laughs and even some people saying "that is disgusting" in hushed tones when they first see me. There are other people who are complete strangers who would go out of their way to compliment me. So it's really a mixed bag. People are also now offering to carry things for me. So that's nice!
Similar to others the male privilege runs deep and until it was lost I did not realize how much it threads through everything in life. Female privilege exists as well so that is awesome and getting it figured out has been fun. The two surprising things I have experienced are 1) getting called mom all the time I am with my kids who are 9 and 11 no matter what the activity is and 2) how much senior citizens just seem to accept me as I present not knowing if they know I am trans or not. I expected the seniors to be a tough crowd and my experience has not validated that at all, maybe because their eye sight is sketchy :)
I am sure there is 100's of other things but those above stand out for me.
My experience will be different from most here because I am a woman of color, a bit older (mid 30s) and with kids.
Things I did expect and that happen:
Doors being opened
Street harassment (catcalling, propositioning)
Guys buying me a drink
Being treated like lesser than my male counterparts in meetings and conf calls
Being talked over on conference calls
Being treated like I know nothing about tech, science, cars, electronics etc (I know more than most of these guys forgot.) The only exception seems to be about firearms where it is assumed somehow that women are good at shooting and know a lot about firearms. I refer to this as the Annie Oakley effect.
Men talking down to me
What I didn't expect:
Guys trying to impress me with their cars, looking at me, smiling, revving it up a few times then gunning it at the stop light. Well I'm driving a mini van anyway, it's not like I'm gonna race you lol (but I can smoke some of you with a 285 HP v6).
Being carded every damn where for every damn thing every damn time. It was cute initially but now it's just plain annoying. I get carded every time I go to the liquor store. Most other people in line don't get carded. And wal-mart when buying carb spray or super glue. Oh, and the cashier usually calls me by a feminized version of my deadname, because the first name and initial (A) are close together on my DL. (I had changed the sex designation but not the name yet). That works until I get my court order. Male cashiers more so than female.
Being accepted and treated as a woman even by people who are well known to be transphobic. I guess that is the power of passing and probably some degree of passing privilege.
Having guys tell you stuff is "too heavy" or have guys offer to help you load or take stuff down from the shelf without even asking. I'm 5'6" though.
People wanting to sit next to me more often in public spaces, particularly public transportation. As a guy I was usually the last choice. And it's more so women, because I guess I don't manspread or anything.
Being more approachable in general, women ask me for help etc. Even in the restrooms I'm asked for sanitary products on occasion.
Kids being more friendly to me. I thought that kids for sure would clock me. Guess not.
Total acceptance at work. My transition has been largely a non event.
And a bonus: I notice now that in general, women are more willing to talk to me about work issues, eg. vendor sales people are more likely to be women when they are referred to me. Previously I used to get guys. The tech culture is heavily male centric with the "brogrammer" culture in full force.
I've found the same regarding seniors. Even in the rare cases where their eyebrows raised when they got a good look they didn't back down and misgendered me.
Biggest surprise and pleasure? Not having mothers cringe in fear when I smile and talk to or about their children. It makes things easier, children have always loved me.
For me the most surprising thing was just how normal my life continued to be, yeah I know :o. During my transition I only had two negative encounters: one was a past coworker who showed her true self at a grocery store, and another was someone I thought to be a friend tried to exert himself in an inexcusable sexual advance (left this person in the dust).
Anyway back to the social aspect, no prob, none at all! People seemed to actually fall all over themselves trying to be respectful, and treat me in the correct manner. Did my heart good, very good. Dani
That's good to hear Dani. Another question for all you ladies is, do the people who knew you before treat you as female afterwards? Or is it still different?
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on September 03, 2015, 02:18:25 PM
That's good to hear Dani. Another question for all you ladies is, do the people who knew you before treat you as female afterwards? Or is it still different?
Some of my friends make light-hearted jokes not about me being trans, but about me being a girl. I guess I relate to my female friends more now, as well as girlfriends of my male friends. Other than that, I'm the same person, just outwardly a girl now. Different name, appearance, she/her words, and everything else is a non-issue, really.
Oh, except for one friend, who I've been kinda flirty with... ::) :-*
He's... we were chatting, sitting close, and out of nowhere he pinched my nipple. I screamed, jumped back, and flashed him my tits!
You also may experience getting hit on by random cashiers at the local rite aid lol. Like what happened to me five minutes ago!
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on September 03, 2015, 02:18:25 PMAnother question for all you ladies is, do the people who knew you before treat you as female afterwards? Or is it still different?
I'm pre-hrt but have been my true self for over a month and have transitioned while at my job. For the first week and a half I got treated like regular old me by everyone that knew more. Apart from a few people that acted like I didn't exist. And a few people that hardly new me treated me as female from day one. After more then a month now stuff has really changed for me. I have people actually opening doors from me now, have a lot more workers coming up to me just to chat or looking for advice. I think the biggest thing was a couple of nights ago I was asked to find a male worker to help out with something. And if that would have happened a couple weeks ago I would have been told to do it. Also I've noticed that guys really hate if I can lift something heavier then them!
Along with that I've experienced some sexism already, being talked down to. But its not really bothering me at this point.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on September 03, 2015, 02:18:25 PM
... do the people who knew you before treat you as female afterwards?
I have moved a few times since transition/SRS 40 years ago so none of my current friends knew me before but many know (or have heard) about my non-standard childhood. Still, despite knowing, I am just totally accepted as CIS female. I even have to remind my family doctor that my situation is a little different than her other female patients.
If the mind perceives one as female, knowing the "facts" doesn't seem to override the perception. I have even been asked (by women I know) if I have a tampon or pad!
The way everyone looks at me now. Women just stare straight at my face. I really don't like it, because I'm not used to this gazing crap.
Hi,
Whats different for myself ,
Oh dear , male privilge has never been an issue as I hold a rank that has respect with it and from both male and female plus my age very few have rejected me as a person and a female .
I know most thinking here is of cause changing from male to female or female to male so none of that applys . so what does,
being accepted as one who is different from most , there is no hard lines , its more about growing into who you are , the process has taken most of my life 58 years , and still going on ,
I do know what did surprise me was , in how people and I mean many ....many who just got along side me so quickly and wonted to be close to me , 10s of 1000s of people knew and from that day on has never stopped and why , because a trust was placed in me that I never saw coming men and women ,
you stand in front of others and give of your life and tell your story your life changes so much . and the 2nd part was doors were opened for you to go through that has been so different I don't mean a door you open and walk through ,
acceptance is the meaning .
...noeleena...
Lots of things change, I would say most of your relationships dynamics will change a little. I love all of the changes that have happens but there a few things that bug me now.
Loss of male privileged. Yes there is such a thing and it will be gone. I now have to twice as assertive about things for some people to take me seriously. In the past I would say something, people would take it as a FACT, now I find myself having to explain things in details for people to listen. Something that is just part of society.
Guys will all of the sudden begin to talk to you in a softer tone. I find myself often having to really pay attention to hear them. Some guys will just stare at you, or just stare at your chest, fixated. That is def something I will never get used to
All of the relationships with my friends have changed. My girlfriends are now shopping buddies and I find that now they are way more open with sharing very personal things about their lives. In the other hand most of my guy friends now are a little more quiet around me and are not as opened as we once were. Not with everyone, my best friends are still there and we are still buddies. There is also this instinctive thing from my guy friends to taking care of me. For example if we go out on a group, they are always making sure I am safe and help me keep the creeps away.
I also have noticed that girls that I do not know can be very mean at times. This is something that was a major contrast. I just do not remember girls being mean for no reason before.
Overall I am more comfortable being myself after transition. Well I guess I am still transitioning .. but feel free to ask anything. I am sure I can think of several other things.
Thank you everyone for some interesting information. As I said in the original post I really only have body dysphoria now, (the social went away after high school, that was part of the reason I was able to convince myself I wasn't actually trans). I don't want to transition and find that I don't like how I'm treated by others, in essence get social dysphoria going the opposite direction.
The women I work with all treat me as one of the girls. Today we found a size fifteen pair of pants in the grocery section. My coworker said "somebody has a fat...", um, bottom. I said, " yeah me." I estimate I'm around a 14 or 16 but not sure. She said, "nah, you're not that big." Perfectly ordinary female conversation!
Another asked what I did to get my hair curly. I said it's natural and she was jealous.
Also, I think one of my male coworkers is developing a crush. Never mind that I'm a lesbian and old enough to be his mother. He's always asking me where I've been when I'm not with the team. He seeks me out for conversation. Kinda cute, actually.
I guess being so readily accepted is the big surprise for me. I love working with young people!
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on September 03, 2015, 02:18:25 PM
That's good to hear Dani. Another question for all you ladies is, do the people who knew you before treat you as female afterwards? Or is it still different?
A little bit of both. It seems like my relationship with my family as an individual is still the same. I still have the same attitudes and perceptions of the people in my family unit.
They are doing the customary thing. They are calling me the name I declared myself to now be in alignment with my changed appearance (sort of.) It's hard to tell if they are actually doing it out of genuine feeling and understanding that I am female or they just see it as some carnie thing. Either way, it really is not my business what they think of me, so I just spare myself that agony.
I have grandparents from my father's side that are still alive yet. At this point, I believe they were put into my reality solely to test me and make my life much harder.
They seem to just innately know everything that gets under my skin. I seriously doubt that talking to them would accomplish anything.
In short though, it is a little bit of both. Do I get treated as female? I suppose so. Do I get respected as one? Probably not, but the feeling is reciprocal.
I can relate to pretty much all that people have said. In general it comes down to more talking, more discussion- which is fine by me. So, whether it's sales staff, work colleagues, friends or anyone, I'm expected to be chatty and fairly positive. The super positive aspect has required some work on my part, but it has been getting easier.
I'm not thrilled with the discriminatory aspects of female life, but I certainly don't think I'm on my own there!
People who knew me before for sure treat me differently. Most of them, women were the first, treat me like a woman. But now that I pass most of the time I have noticed that folks who knew me before, especially men, are the ones most likely to misgender me. One coworker has known me for less than a year but is still barely able to use my new name or preferred pronouns. He even pulled me aside and told me how "courageous" I was for coming out and that he didn't mean to be so bad at it. I told him that was nice and all but that he should accept that I will correct him if he doesn't self correct.
It is a little odd having some relationships close down while others open up. My best friend is a guy but there are now things I don't share with him and vice versa. On the other hand there are female friends who had liked me before but couldn't figure me out. I did things, like female conversation, that guys just don't do and now I make so much sense we are becoming closer.
My saddest change is in the form of my brother. He won't talk to me because his brother is dead in his mind. I told him I am just more me than ever but that didn't help. He says he supports my decision but doesn't have time to get to know a new person. I never though I would be a stranger to the person I was closest with.
But it is all positive in the end. I wouldn't go back even if I could...