So i was looking at the two surgery because this is the first thing i want to get done. So from what i under stood from Haben surgery it more about using Tools to stretch and modify your vocal cords to shape them. Correct me if im wrong that was my understanding and yenson actually go in and cuts part of your vocal cords off around 1/3 to shape it like a females. Correct me again if i'm wrong. So my question which one will have the best most natural sounding results?
Actually both offer similar procedures.
The procedure they both offer is a glottoplasty. Dr Kim (Yeson) and Dr Haben have different methods though, and it's hard to tell how different the results are, if at all. Dr Kim uses permanent sutures. Not sure about Dr Haben. Basically they cut a membrane off your vocal folds and suture them together. They heal together and the vibrating portion is shorter and the anterior commissure is higher.
Both do this procedure endscopically meaning they go through your mouth and don't make an incision in your neck.
There are other surgeons who do this who may be not as well known such as Prof Marc Remacle in Belgium.
Dr Haben also offers something called a cricothyroid approximation or CTA. You can look that up to see what it is. This one requires an incision in the neck. He also offers a trachea shave to reduce the appearance of your adam's apple.
Honestly the major difference between the two for most people boils down to travel. For Dr Kim you have to travel to South Korea and stay 9-10 days. For Dr Haben you have to travel to upstate NY, but if you are stateside this is easier and cheaper.
But as far as I've seen here, both produce similar results and neither one seems to be "better." I went with Dr Kim because I was inspired by Jenny and J-Mi, plus I just wanted to travel. :) I was also impressed by the modern facilities. But if I had to choose again I may have chosen Dr Haben due to travel concerns.
Hope this helps you make a decision.
Dr Haben uses a laser to burn the cords where they will fuse instead of cutting them but the net result is pretty much the same. The sutures Dr Haben uses to tie the cords with are temporary but he expects them to remain in place for at least a month before they dissolve. The CTA uses permanent material in the larynx and the skin is resealed with removable material. I was more comfortable with Dr Haben and staying in the United States, but for the Glottoplasty part of the procedure, I am not sure I can say one doctor has an advantage over the other.
My advice to you is look at both doctors, their web sites and ask questions of each to learn which procedure you are most comfortable with. Dr Haben can be emailed but from what I understand, Dr Kim is also accessible before you commit as well. That was how I decided but your values might be different so you should make your own decision.
OKiedokie thanks for the info
Quote from: Dena on September 02, 2015, 02:40:15 PM
My advice to you is look at both doctors, their web sites and ask questions of each to learn which procedure you are most comfortable with. Dr Haben can be emailed but from what I understand, Dr Kim is also accessible before you commit as well. That was how I decided but your values might be different so you should make your own decision.
Yes all of Dr Kim's communication to schedule your surgery, ask questions is handled by their international patient coordinator. She's very helpful and will answer all questions. They also send a pre op checklist and questionnaire. You also fill out paperwork when you get there. They will ask for a recording in a wav file too.
I also forgot about laser. Dr Haben also uses the lasers to create scar bands to thin the vocal cords if needed.
I had the triple with Dr. Haben. He was extremely accommodating, despite some major snafu's with the plane schedules. The staff and Anesthesiologist at the surgery center were all very personable and compassionate. In pretty much agree with what has already been said. I'd like to add too that overall, Dr. Haben is certainly the lesser expensive option. Even when getting the triple(which Dr. Kim doesn't do), his rates are certainly cheaper and time away from home is much less - 2 days vs 9(i think it was?)
I'm pretty conflicted on which one to choose myself but in the end I might end up going with Haben just because I can stay state side and don't need a passport. I had one ages ago but that's long since lost ever since I stopped talking to my dad when I was 13 or so and he's long dead now. I think I'll just wait until after GRS before requesting a new one so I can have it read female without all the hassle and extra costs. I won't need to leave the US for that either since I'm just deciding between McGinn and Bowers, both of which are in the US and trans themselves.
I figure I'll get VFS before I even get my top surgery because there's no way I could pass without it and with boobs I'd kind of have to be able to pass.
Anyone know how long the waiting lists typically are for Haben & Kim?
Dr Habens waiting list is all over the place, it can be up to 2 1/2 months but I slipped in with 3 weeks and the girl after me took the Wednesday after that. I had the option for both windows but in my messed up plans I thought earlier would be better. In the end the plans were scramble but worked out fine.
One little issue is some of the paper work move pretty slow and something I wanted before surgery didn't show up till after I returned home. I didn't need it but it would have been nice to have it.
As soon as you know the date you want, make the call because the earlier you do the more likely you will have the date you want.
Just one short comment: Please never let travel discomfort or passport issues influence your choices about any surgery . Be that VFS in Korea or GRS in Thailand or FFS anywhere instead of your home country. Choose ONLY based on what surgery is best and gives the best results that you are confident to fit yourself. The expenses and hassle with travelling are minute compared to the lifelong effect of surgeries.
I read this so often - that people choose a doctor because he is easier to reach, but I think this should not play a role. In my case it was a bit more clear - I went to Korea for VFS which was far more travel than to Stuttgart or Berlin in my home country even though they also do voice surgery. But the results and techniques really convinced me to choose Korea, even though it will cost me a lot more money, too. But I based the decision on which results are best, where my chances for a good results are best and which technique is the one I like better. I did not know about Dr Haben or Remarcle at that time, so I did not really have them in the comparison list - besides Dr Haben would have taken me a long overseas flight, too.
Regarding the difference - I think in terms of glottoplasty the main difference between Yeson and others is that he uses microscalpels to cleanly cut the mucous membrane from the vocal folds and re-places them later on top of the scar to protect it, uses special tools to set very nicely parallel sutures with a permanent thread that can be tightened better than the dissolving thread and which will stay in place for the full healing period instead of just 4 weeks. He also seems to place these sutures differently than others and seems to create a way to avoid turbulence after the VFS, thus decreasing hoarseness in the long run.
With laser, you burn off the membrane and so it cannot be replaced, it will have to regrow or the suture will be exposed and might in some cases cause issues.
But if you want a combination procedure done, your choice pretty much has to be Dr Haben as I don't think any of the other ones that are well known offer such a combination.
Quote from: iKate on September 03, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
I also forgot about laser. Dr Haben also uses the lasers to create scar bands to thin the vocal cords if needed.
Does thinning the vocal cords give a higher pitch? Is this what voice therapy would do over time? How exactly is it done?
Quote from: gentlebreeze on September 19, 2015, 05:18:57 AM
Does thinning the vocal cords give a higher pitch? Is this what voice therapy would do over time? How exactly is it done?
I don't see it anywhere on his website now. He may have changed his procedure. Ask him?
Quote from: iKate on September 19, 2015, 07:20:17 AM
I don't see it anywhere on his website now. He may have changed his procedure. Ask him?
Its not on his site, which means he doesn't do it.
Quote from: gentlebreeze on September 19, 2015, 08:39:00 AM
Its not on his site, which means he doesn't do it.
At one time he did have details where he would thin the vocal chords with laser. I suspect he has since decided not to do that again. He even had videos.
You can always ask him as I've heard that he may still do it if it is necessary.
http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/voice%20feminization%20patient%20PDF.pdf
"Our practice uses two methods to feminize the voice. The first is a minimally-invasive procedure to stretch the vocal folds through a small incision in the neck. This method does NOT result in scarring the way surgery to make the vocal folds shorter may. We combine the minimally-invasive procedure with an endoscopic (= through-the-mouth) LASER procedure to thin the vocal folds. This method is more conservative than others advertised elsewhere, however, the results are much more natural sounding and associated with less complications. See the "before" and "after" examples below."
I'm guessing that he is now doing the glottoplasty similar to dr Kim now instead of the laser thinning, as the glottoplasty seems to have a more predictable and consistent result.
Quote from: iKate on September 19, 2015, 08:46:14 AM
http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/voice%20feminization%20patient%20PDF.pdf
"Our practice uses two methods to feminize the voice. The first is a minimally-invasive procedure to stretch the vocal folds through a small incision in the neck. This method does NOT result in scarring the way surgery to make the vocal folds shorter may. We combine the minimally-invasive procedure with an endoscopic (= through-the-mouth) LASER procedure to thin the vocal folds. This method is more conservative than others advertised elsewhere, however, the results are much more natural sounding and associated with less complications. See the "before" and "after" examples below."
Just reading about the procedure. Sounds quite risky. The thinning of the vocal cords sounds very much like the Laser Assisted Voice Adjustment (LAVA), which has been around for quite a while.
What are the prices like for Kim vs Haben?
For Haben, I've read that it's around $7,000. For Kim, I've read that it's around $7,380. So, I'm just really not sure why Haben is regarded as considerably cheaper... is it because of the international flight and 9 day stay in Korea?
My bill for the VFS was
$2,500 Dr Haben
$3,271 Hospital including two nights in hotel
$1,105 Anesthesia billed separately
$ 108 Three meals in hotel, there were cheaper items and other food in walking distance
$1155 Southwest ticket, These could be rescheduled, cheapest would be around $500
Add to that 4 cab fares, under $200 but I could have used a shuttle from the airport to the hotel
Typical costs for Yeson are:
$7380 surgery and consultation (all inclusive)
$400 botox (if needed)
$600-$1000 10 days hotel stay in Korea
$1000-$2000 economy class direct flight from East Coast USA.
Expect to spend about $100-$200 on food.
Transportation can be cabs, bus or the subway. I used the subway and it was very cheap, like $2 per ride.
Quote from: Dena on September 19, 2015, 12:57:28 PM
My bill for the VFS was
$2,500 Dr Haben
$3,271 Hospital including two nights in hotel
$1,105 Anesthesia billed separately
$ 108 Three meals in hotel, there were cheaper items and other food in walking distance
$1155 Southwest ticket, These could be rescheduled, cheapest would be around $500
Add to that 4 cab fares, under $200 but I could have used a shuttle from the airport to the hotel
Wow Dena thanks for sharing that, that's a very insightful price breakdown. I'm not sure if the hospital bill you mention that includes two hotel nights, is a hotel billed by the hospital or something. Most probably it isn't, so it would be interesting to know how much was the hospital actually. I am amazed at how "low" the surgeon's fee seems when you put it all together and calculate its percentage. In this case, including the hotel, it's "only" 26.6% of the surgery-related bills as a total.
I wish there was a way around those incredibly expensive hospital fees, and also that the anesthesia and travel expenses weren't so big.
I hope you have excellent results with your surgery and thanks again for sharing!
Cheers
Bibi B.
Quote from: bibilinda on September 19, 2015, 01:12:09 PM
I wish there was a way around those incredibly expensive hospital fees, and also that the anesthesia and travel expenses weren't so big.
In my case if I went with Dr H I would be able to drive there. It's about a 4-5 hour drive and I am totally fine with that.
Also since he is a US surgeon, you could probably ask your insurance to cover some things. They don't deal with insurance but you can file a claim. It may or may not work.
Bibi, you ask for it, you got it. The total for the hotel was $369.36 and I think you must stay the night before the surgery in the hospital as part of the package. There might be an exception if you drive with a care taker.
And by the way, I had $600 in addition because I didn't have a care taker and needed to spend the night of the surgery day in the hospital. With a care taker you can leave the hospital after the surgery,
Quote from: iKate on September 19, 2015, 01:09:46 PM
Typical costs for Yeson are:
$7380 surgery and consultation (all inclusive)
$400 botox (if needed)
$600-$1000 10 days hotel stay in Korea
$1000-$2000 economy class direct flight from East Coast USA.
Expect to spend about $100-$200 on food.
Transportation can be cabs, bus or the subway. I used the subway and it was very cheap, like $2 per ride.
For me it was the same regarding Yeson (surgery, hospital stay, anaesthesia, 3 consultations - one pre op, one directly post op and one a week later), I also had the Botox. I paid about $600 for a room at Phil house which included a free stay for a second person. Flight was about $900 with the cheapest option from Europe, but I would have spent $200 more if I knew what was waiting for us at the transfer airport in Bejing ;) . Food prices vary a lot - you can get food for $10 or less, at Phil house you can even cook yourself, or you can have a great meal and spend $40 or more - which we did twice just because we thought we deserve it ;)
I think overall - including some expenses for my friend who came with me and souveniers and good food, some sightseeing - I spent about 8000EU, which proabably was about $10000 at that time. I think I could have done with 10% less if I would have trevelled alone and lived a bit cheaper and without souveniers ;)
Overall it seems that the basic price of both surgeries is similar, but the travel expenses vary - for me, travelling to the USA would have taken as much travel money as for Korea and I can imagine Dr Haben also wants to do a checkup after some time like Dr Kim does it after a week (which is why you need to stay 9-11 days in Seoul)?
But apparently with Dr Haben you get a bit more for the money as he does not only glottoplasty but also does the CTA at the same time and the laser thinning and adams apple shave? So if you need all of that done, Dr Haben is probably cheaper in relation - also Dr Kim refuses to do these other procedures because in hins opinion they are not beneficial, so if you want them, you would have to get them elsewhere anyways.
Yeah I went with my mom. I also took a prestige class flight on Korean and booked with miles so I did not really pay anything for my flight. I really lucked out in that regard and it was nice to sleep laying almost flat on the plane.
I did stay at Phil House and spent some on sightseeing, souvenirs and shopping although the clothes almost didn't fit, I only really fit their largest women's sizes there as I'm US 8-10 dress and size 8-9 shoe size.
I don't need CTA or adam's apple shave as mine is not really visible at all.