So I went out to the bar after having a rough weekend last weekend with family. So I didn't feel like going to a straight bar because I feel more comfortable going to the gay bar especially since I get Id'ed everytime. So I went to the gay bar and got some Bloody Marys. I was just sitting there and the bar was pretty full so a guy came up and talked to me. He was nice! We made small talk but we weren't like becoming instant friends. He eventually saw some people he knew and sat with them. They were within earshot and I could clearly hear them picking on him for "talking with a fishy." he was all like "no it wasn't like that!" I was just like yup biphobia in action.
Then I was finishing my third drink and I heard 2 old men talking about this trans women who applied at his work and he wouldn't hire her because she had a 5 o'clock shadow and a cheap wig. He was saying he would only hire a trans women if she looked respectable (aka looked cis from the way he talked).
So of course I got upset. I'm like, "you realize that you have a trans person sitting right next to you right?!" I tell highways up that he is basically being oppressive to trans people by doing that. That he shouldn't uphold passing privilege and enforce it. That he should be more emphatic like the trans women might not even be able to afford a nice wig. Or that she might be struggling with depression due to the fact that she can't find a job, Thus letting her looks down.
So this conversation went know where. Actually if it went anywhere it went down. Like he started to talk about how we all have mental illnesses and how we should seek other treatments other then surgery and stuff.
I was like ok I'm done I'm gonna leave this place as soon as possible. And right when I picked up my card and older women came up to me. We were 2 of the three women/ trans feminine folks around. She just wanted to talk. She was very friendly towards me. It was nice to get that last conversation out of my mind. Then she mentioned that she was gonna go do karaoke and she asked me if I sang and I said " No I stopped when I hit puberty. I didn't like how my voice changed" She looked at me funny and a smile went up on her face and said " I'm trans too!"
I was like no way. It was great that neither of us had any idea that the other was trans lol. She did her performance and we chatted some more and I came to find out she transitioned like 15 years ago and has been fairly secretive about being trans since then.
It was an interesting night and I came away with a few things, don't think that you are safe from transphobia/biphobia just because you are in a queer space. Don't assume that you are the only trans person in a building. And bloody Mary's are super cheap at that bar.
for some reason gay bars seem to put a lot of alcohol in the drinks.
Gay people who are transphobic and trans people who are homophobic are useless waste of life.
Quote from: chloeD33 on September 12, 2015, 02:58:47 PM
Gay people who are transphobic and trans people who are homophobic are useless waste of life.
I didn't think homophobic trans people existed, but my therapist let me in on what goes on at a particular support group she moderates. Turns out I was wrong!
And Amber, what city do you live in?
Quote from: MugwortPsychonaut on September 12, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
I didn't think homophobic trans people existed, but my therapist let me in on what goes on at a particular support group she moderates. Turns out I was wrong!
And Amber, what city do you live in?
Lansing, Michigan
Quote from: amber roskamp on September 12, 2015, 03:28:32 PM
Lansing, Michigan
Condolences. I grew up in Lincoln Park. I remember Lansing best for the alternating one way streets.
Yup when I moved here last year I was so confused by the roads. Now I don't drive so I'm lucky. There is no such thing as one way sidewalks
Alternating, one-way streets? Philly's like that, too. It feels so normal to me. It's also conducive to having a dense, gridded, walkable city.
Yes, it seems part of our on going struggles for acceptance and equity is to work within what one might hope is "our community." How can people, who are a minority that a faces discrimination, prejudice and ignorance turn around and do the circular firing squad maneuvers and be so self destructive?
We share what the cis and straight culture find largely mystifying. Our innate senses of gender and sexual orientation baffle them. Yes, we were born this way; sexual orientation and gender identity are not choices. Behavior is within the realms of choice and we can do better together.
Quote from: Tessa James on September 13, 2015, 12:22:35 PM
Yes, it seems part of our on going struggles for acceptance and equity is to work within what one might hope is "our community." How can people, who are a minority that a faces discrimination, prejudice and ignorance turn around and do the circular firing squad maneuvers be so self destructive?
We share what the cis and straight culture find largely mystifying. Our innate senses of gender and sexual orientation baffle them. Yes, we were born this way; sexual orientation and gender identity are not choices. Behavior is within the realms of choice and we can do better together.
Well he was a rich white cis gay man. A dentist with his own practice. So while he probably can understand that trans people are people and hopefully can see the similar struggles our two communities face, but he fails to understand all the obstacles that can get in ones way. And what kind of effects that has on people's mood and wellbeing. And how ones mood effects ones behavior and presentation.
Quote from: amber roskamp on September 13, 2015, 01:02:44 PM
Well he was a rich white cis gay man. A dentist with his own practice. So while he probably can understand that trans people are people and hopefully can see the similar struggles our two communities face, but he fails to understand all the obstacles that can get in ones way. And what kind of effects that has on people's mood and wellbeing. And how ones mood effects ones behavior and presentation.
He spewed transphobia, AND he has his own dental practice? Sounds like it's time for a poor Yelp revirew. ;) kiddingnotkidding
Quote from: amber roskamp on September 12, 2015, 02:12:37 PM
...
It was an interesting night and I came away with a few things, don't think that you are safe from transphobia/biphobia just because you are in a queer space. Don't assume that you are the only trans person in a building. And bloody Mary's are super cheap at that bar.
So true, sadly. We had to hold sensitivity trainings for quite a few LGB
T organizations and allegedly LGB
T friendly people over the years who thought they know everything just because they saw one or two trans* persons in their lives. I know a lot of trans* people who had very bad experiences with some gay and lesbian people after they came out as trans, even worse if they were bisexual as well.
Transphobia in LGBT circles is real unfortunately.
Quote from: Lynne on September 13, 2015, 02:18:48 PM
So true, sadly. We had to hold sensitivity trainings for quite a few LGBT organizations and allegedly LGBT friendly people over the years who thought they know everything just because they saw one or two trans* persons in their lives. I know a lot of trans* people who had very bad experiences with some gay and lesbian people after they came out as trans, even worse if they were bisexual as well.
Transphobia in LGBT circles is real unfortunately.
Yea, definitely true. It's too bad because our community would be so much stronger without trans/ace/bi-phobia from lg people.
And as previously mentioned, though I think it's much rarer, the homophobic trans people. I still have yet to meet a homophobic trans person but I have heard they exist. Also I have like 60 real life trans friends, so it's no like I'm sheltered, non of them are homophobic, but they might hide it around me due to the fact that I am a very outspoken feminist and call out people's bull when necessary.
In my experience I've met trans people who are transphobic, if you can believe that. They just want to grind through transition as fast as possible and get on with their lives.
For those making harsh judgments about others for being phobic in some sense or another and saying they're a waste of life, I find that sentiment lacking compassion and insight. They are not wastes of life, they are simply uneducated and lacking compassion. Most likely they have never met someone like us. Prejudices are usually fueled by fears that one is the same as those they are prejudiced against which causes them to be quite verbal and negative about their fears, jumping to an attack mode rather than support. Again, education is key, not degradation and insults.
I've known an MtF girl who was quite homophobic and racist which was kind of funny in a sad way. I tried to talk some sense into her with limited success at the time but I've heard that she is not so radical these days.
She was also transphobic in a way. She had this idea that every MtF had to be like her, young, beautiful and heterosexual, otherwise they are not really trans. I've seen this kind of thinking a lot of times with younger straight MtF girls.
Being trans can teach a lot to anyone who is willing to be open but I've seen my fair share of close-minded, homophobic and even transphobic trans* people. And they can spread so much false information it's unbelievable. And everyone who isn't knowledgeable about trans* issues will believe them because they are trans* as well and sometimes they are very confident.
Quote from: Lynne on September 13, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
I've known an MtF girl who was quite homophobic and racist which was kind of funny in a sad way. I tried to talk some sense into her with limited success at the time but I've heard that she is not so radical these days.
She was also transphobic in a way. She had this idea that every MtF had to be like her, young, beautiful and heterosexual, otherwise they are not really trans. I've seen this kind of thinking a lot of times with younger straight MtF girls.
Being trans can teach a lot to anyone who is willing to be open but I've seen my fair share of close-minded, homophobic and even transphobic trans* people. And they can spread so much false information it's unbelievable. And everyone who isn't knowledgeable about trans* issues will believe them because they are trans* as well and sometimes they are very confident.
This is true. I have actually in my opinion met more transphobic and more racist trans women then I have met homophobic ones. Like they think that they are more legitimately trans because they are straight. Or because they look more cis. It is upsetting when you run into these people.
Quote from: amber roskamp on September 13, 2015, 04:37:27 PM
This is true. I have actually in my opinion met more transphobic and more racist trans women then I have met homophobic ones. Like they think that they are more legitimately trans because they are straight. Or because they look more cis. It is upsetting when you run into these people.
I deal with this internally! I keep batttling this stupid, heteronormative notion of mine, that I'm more "authentically" female when I crush on a guy, as opposed to another girl. It's so asinine!
Quote from: MugwortPsychonaut on September 12, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
I didn't think homophobic trans people existed, but my therapist let me in on what goes on at a particular support group she moderates. Turns out I was wrong!
And Amber, what city do you live in?
I mean yeah, I wouldn't call myself homophobic but the concept of being gay is pretty foreign to me. However I respect and I'm friends with many gay people, including a guy at work who is my best ally. I mean, it's all about respect, right? Yes, I respect you even if I don't understand you or how you live. It's really none of my business how you live your life and I will support your right to live however you want to, as long as you don't harm anyone.
Curiously enough, it is this sort of thinking that got Caitlyn Jenner a lot of criticism. I tell people I support gay rights 100% but it is independent of me being trans, I support gay rights any way because it is just the human thing to do, and gay marriage especially is an issue of equal protection which is enshrined in the Constitution. There is also the issue of a somewhat shared struggle for our rights, acceptance and to be free of violence.
And not for nothing, a lot of gay people I know are pretty darned nice people. I like nice people, regardless.
Quote from: amber roskamp on September 13, 2015, 04:37:27 PM
This is true. I have actually in my opinion met more transphobic and more racist trans women then I have met homophobic ones. Like they think that they are more legitimately trans because they are straight. Or because they look more cis. It is upsetting when you run into these people.
Oh heck we've even seen a few of them here, one of whom thinks there should be more gatekeeping to keep out trans women who haven't always been openly feminine, are older, or have been married to women.
Quote from: AnnahM on September 13, 2015, 02:49:18 PM
In my experience I've met trans people who are transphobic, if you can believe that. They just want to grind through transition as fast as possible and get on with their lives.
I can kind of see this. This helped keep me back a long time, as I did not like (and still do not like) the trans label. I especially don't like the "queer" label because it singles me out as being an anomaly in society. It's not something I'm overly proud about. In the end I have gender dysphoria and I just want to be rid of it.
I just want to be accepted as a normal member of society who maybe has a bit of a medical history.
:police:
Okay folks we need to keep a few things in mind when talking about this subject. No one has crossed any rules, but we are starting to get close to that point which is why it's important I remind you of the following. It's true that members of our own community can be just as much as any other group, but lets be considerate and understanding of them. We will not allow this thread to turn into a haven for bashing or any kind of ridiculing those who are trans or any kind of phobic.
Quote5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate (http://www.answers.com/titillate); or which depicts/promotes illegal acts; will not be permitted.
9. If you disapprove of people who are Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual; or activities which cross gender boundaries; take your arguments to a more appropriate website.
10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
- Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
- Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
- Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.
It's a strange one - but I think that, maybe, some gay guys suffer from this weird perpetual 'boy's club' type syndrome. Like, when you were at school, there were boys who couldn't talk to girls? ;) Well most grew up, and sort of had to learn because they were straight and didn't want to be virgins for ever!!!
What about the gay ones? The ones who didn't ever really learn? It's odd but I've got gay friends and I know other gay people - there's sort of, for me, this weird male parallel world where it's possible to go for months with minimal dealings with women. I kind of live on the other side of this - my friends are female, my work colleagues are mostly female, my social activities are female, even the shops I go in tend to be female. :) It's only when you think, or in my case scribble a few weird ideas down, about how gender divided society still is that you notice? Maybe; I could be wrong.
I bought a second hand car the other day; which was mostly boring but it felt odd. Going to the garage was my first time in the male hinterland for ages. There were guys everywhere. I drove the car to check it and the salesman went with me. :o It was the first time I'd had an extended conversation with a man who wasn't a work colleague, family member, existing social contact or service user (I do voluntary work) for quite a while. Talking to men, for me, is generally like: "Hi can I pay for petrol pump number seven/Twenty Silk Cut/Large Americano with Soya - Thanks, Bye" :-* I don't do the whole intensive guy conversation thing, I'm also bad at it lol!!! The car salesman kept talking about the car. I was like, this is so boring - I just want to pay you and get on with my life. ;)
This is like massively off the point. Probably. My point was that the male half of society, the car garages and hardware shops, is perfectly accessible to gay men. Or some anyway! Like the majority who aren't obvious about it? :) I'm really not wanting to stereotype but lots of gay men don't do or say or wear anything that would identify them as, for me, gay. So they fit well into the guy side and have no particular reason to ever leave it? Like for them, maybe, girls exist as shop assistants or bus drivers or receptionists. The interactions they have are, probably, simple and professional and completely lacking emotion. I have noticed this!!! I've worked at events and stuff where the majority of men are gay, especially the older ones. They take one look at me, in nice top and make-up, and seem to go all shy ;)
Bless them - but it's like they never quite grew out of the whole embarrassed boy thing because they kind of didn't need to? They were happier to go off with the other blokes and talk about bloke stuff - cars and football or whatever. Us girls were left to be girls :-* There isn't anything wrong with that, I don't think, but it's like odd to think that perhaps there's a lack of socialisation they have? It's sort of forced on straight men; in that to actually have sex for them involves a woman somewhere along the way.
But maybe living this male half life, maybe because I'm only guessing, leads to a lack of understanding. A lack of empathy with women and no real concept of what it is to be female? ;) We're these sort of exotic and unknowable weird creatures to be dealt with minimally. And I'm afraid that probably leads towards sexism and ultimately transphobia. They probably wouldn't have any reason to have even read a feminist argument, let alone agreed with it. They, for me, wouldn't have any cause for concern (and may prefer it) if their workplace was all male. And I don't mean that like, you know, I mean for them it's easier to talk to men and work with men so they're more likely to want men around. Which is inherently sexist.
I'm not saying they objectify women sexually, it's almost the opposite. But perhaps they haven't quite got there when it comes to valuing women as people?
The thing is this doesn't apply to the majority of gay men!!! :) I don't want anyone to think I'm generalising in any way. Most aren't sexist. Most are lovely people and get on well, are nice to talk to, easy going and stuff. I don't mean gay men as a whole. What I do mean is there are some, and I know it because I've met them, who are just too much man man for a poor girl to take!!
Not sure where that leaves biphobia? :)