Look, this thread is probably going to get some hate, but the more and more time I spend in the trans community the more shallow alot of people seem to be, this isn't saying everyone is like it, but there are more than a few.
What is the obsession with passing?
For me (in my opinion) there is so , so much more to being transgender than passing and frankly it just annoys me that it seems all people are interested in.
I have known deep down that I was a girl as early as I can remember, and passing, even though of course it is some what nice to be socially accepted as a girl was certainly not all there was. For me it was always deeper, I simply just was and was comfortable with that identity, which means I did not care about the appearance as it made no difference to me accepting myself.
So this comes to the ranty part, why are so many people so shallow in only caring how they look, especially in the trans community? I see endless videos online where especially MTF blab / brag about how good they look or how hard it is to be MTF because they don't look beautiful, seriously? Get a grip.
I see endless topics here of people posting images of themselves trying to get attention by asking, do I pass? do I look good?. No one ever, unless cruel, is going to say no, even if you don't, if I told you that you looked like a guy, I would likely get a warning for it, are you truly so insecure about yourself / identity that you need a strangers conformation? If so then I think you need to take a long hard think about your identity.
There is SO MUCH more to being a girl / transexual than your looks, and I have seen people want to be reversed because they didn't look as good as they though they would or have stopped taking hormones because it didn't give them tits over night. Frankly it's insulting and makes me somewhat ashamed of being in the community, where people belittle each other for their own choices, belittle them for not 'presenting' as female as they do, belittle them for not going all the way, seriously.
Being a trans person makes people hate on me / us enough as it is, and it's part in due to the superficial people in the community who flaunt themselves due to either attention / insecurities and comes alot from within the own community!
Be happy with who you are whether that be Male, Female, gender queer, I don't care, as long as it's not one of those people who change their mind to suit their situation, get a grip on yourselves. :-\
<language please>
You bring you a valid point, Skylar. Passing is important to some people because they want to look good and presentable, and that's okay. Your right in saying that there more to being trans than passing. Being comfortable in my own skin was the number one objective of mine when I started out and I have achieved this. I'm out in public and interact with the public. Living and enjoying life is what it's about.
In my mind the toughest part comes after one has had GRS surgery. Now one has to LIVE in their new gender identity. I believe that Caitlyn Jenner has discovered that it's tougher than she imagined. I can vouch for that. Being a well round person is something we all should seek to be.
:)
I imagine that for most it's rooted in a fear of public rejection and ridicule.
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Quote from: Skylar1992 on September 26, 2015, 10:24:35 AM
What is the obsession with passing?
It's true a lot of people get obsessed about beauty, just like cis-gendered people. But vanity doesn't always go hand-in-hand with a desire to pass.
To me passing means blending. A lot of us don't want to be clocked as trans on first glance. We want to live normal lives, where strangers get the pronoun right on the first try. We don't want to be stared at walking down the street. We don't want to people to think we're just indulging in a cross-dressing fetish. That is passing in my opinion.
You can be un-attractive and still pass, if you can master the gender clues/scales society looks for. I think for a lot of people that takes a lot of work (so it becomes an obsession, just like mastering other things).
There are a lot more benefits that come to being more passable, such as avoiding violence and prejudice, but you're definitely right that its bad to become obsessed about it to the point in which passing becomes your only life priority. If materialism is more emphasized than your overall emotional well being, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Passing helps you be who you want to be on the inside, but there should never have to be a measure of how much someones passes. All that matters is if they are happy with who they are and feel accepted.
Remember as a kid how once everyone hit puberty, they became self centered and even more mean? It's a subliminal response for a change we are excited to come. I couldn't imagine a tg not having these feelings unless they accepted their gender at an earlier time.. To be aware of your new body is only human.. Just as kids outgrew their puberty, we will outgrow our 2nd adolescence.. I for one want to enjoy it as long as I can:) We were deprived these feelings most of our lives, so this is only natural to find the boundaries, see what we like and how society sees it..
Some people ask about how they look on here to make sure they don't fail in the real world.. I know I did it.. I was terrified the first time I went out in new clothes, yet with euphoria. I'm sure others were too? But this obsession is natural and will calm down..
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I'm not obsessed with passing so much as not being read. I don't enjoy being misgendered, especially in front of multiple people. It's invalidating for me. I get that sinking feeling in my gut and I want to run away. Aside from that, my fear of being read stems from stories of violence or mistreatment or discrimination against trans people by strangers. I'm afraid when I go into new areas(ie driving thru Canada for the first time was anxiety inducing!) that maybe they won't take kindly to a trans woman in their midst.
As far as not wanting my biologically masculine features to show, I don't like people having a visual reminder of what I consider a deformity. I have a congenital birth defect, in my eyes. Of course I don't want that hanging out every where for people to see - I want to blend and be treated with respected and acceptance as does any other human being. For instance, if I was born with a single eye and an empty socket, I would wear a patch to covet the empty socket. Same deal with my masculine features.
I can't really speak to other trans people's needs to pass or flaunt their selfies. I can only imagine that 1) they fear physical violence or social denigrating when out and about and/or 2) they are insecure with themselves and they are looking for external acceptance and praise to bolster their confidence.
I say, just go with it. Let them be themselves. It's not like you HAVE to read their threads. What really annoys me is all the self-labeling that occurs with in the queer community... My god, as though we're nothing more than overlapping cookie cutter identities...
To be or not to be...
Well if you are a girl you sort of have a need to look like one ;) Who shouted, Social conditioning ! >:(
Live and let live ;)
Paula, <3 X.
A lot of it, I think, is generational. Skylar, going by your profile pic, you appear to be very young. Young folks for the most part seem to be far more tolerant of gender variance than the older folks.
I came of age in the 1970's and 1980's, and after Caitlyn Jenner came out, the talk among cisgender folks my age consisted mostly of off color jokes -- which is better than outright hostility, but who wants to be the butt of someone's joke?
I got bullied a lot when I was young for being small and effeminate, and to me, from a psychological standpoint, passing means the same thing as getting through the school day without being noticed and called out by the bullies.
Quote from: Cadence Jean on September 26, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
I'm not obsessed with passing so much as not being read. I don't enjoy being misgendered, especially in front of multiple people. It's invalidating for me. I get that sinking feeling in my gut and I want to run away. Aside from that, my fear of being read stems from stories of violence or mistreatment or discrimination against trans people by strangers. I'm afraid when I go into new areas(ie driving thru Canada for the first time was anxiety inducing!) that maybe they won't take kindly to a trans woman in their midst.
I can't really speak to other trans people's needs to pass or flaunt their selfies. I can only imagine that 1) they fear physical violence or social denigrating when out and about and/or 2) they are insecure with themselves and they are looking for external acceptance and praise to bolster their confidence.
^This^. Passing = safety and a measure of confidence. I could never do a year of RLE unless I was confident I could blend in.
Okay, I understand peoples points here, but I think I am being misheard a little.
I totally get that people obviously want to fit into what they identify as, which is of course totally fine / natural etc and understandably older generations had to go through more hate.
I am talking about the type of people who transition just for the looks (yes I have known some) and them looking good or not is make and break, people who make videos saying how hard being trans is because they don't look as nice as they thought they would.
The whole point is, there should be less concern on passing and this whole taking pictures and asking people on the net is dumb. Of course ask for make up advice, other advice, but there is no need other than attention / praise seeking to post a pic and ask if you pass.
Well Skylar people can do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting someone. If you think that's dumb, stupid or pointless that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would ask, why burn up so much energy worrying about it?
Quote from: Skylar1992 on September 26, 2015, 10:24:35 AM
Look, this thread is probably going to get some hate, but the more and more time I spend in the trans community the more shallow alot of people seem to be, this isn't saying everyone is like it, but there are more than a few.
What is the obsession with passing?
I agree that there is far more to our lives than "passing" but I'll tell you exactly why it is so important to me and likely many others:
My favorite reaction from people is indifference. Shows of support and slightly condescending compliments are better than hate speech but... I would still prefer indifference. To me, indifference means I am not thought of as a label as much as I am just a person. I cherish indifference in the way that most people probably fear it.
If I can't pass, people who see me usually either love me as an "inspiration" (e.i. teaching moment) or they are disgusted by what I am. I rarely get a neutral reaction, treating me like the other people around me.
If I pass, I can walk around and experience life as something more than just a transgender person.
For some, all the attention is relished (especially if it's positive) and many transfolk embrace it and wear it like a badge. I LOVE those people but that's just not me. I would like the freedom to choose when I disclose my medical history instead of having it written all over me.
Quote from: Ms Grace on September 26, 2015, 04:14:58 PM
Well Skylar people can do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting someone. If you think that's dumb, stupid or pointless that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would ask, why burn up so much energy worrying about it?
Depends on what you define as hurting someone, and because I am entitled to ask questions / give opinions, I don't burn up energy doing it, just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean I am burning up energy.
Quote from: Abysha on September 26, 2015, 04:19:45 PM
I agree that there is far more to our lives than "passing" but I'll tell you exactly why it is so important to me and likely many others:
My favorite reaction from people is indifference. Shows of support and slightly condescending compliments are better than hate speech but... I would still prefer indifference. To me, indifference means I am not thought of as a label as much as I am just a person. I cherish indifference in the way that most people probably fear it.
If I can't pass, people who see me usually either love me as an "inspiration" (e.i. teaching moment) or they are disgusted by what I am. I rarely get a neutral reaction, treating me like the other people around me.
If I pass, I can walk around and experience life as something more than just a transgender person.
For some, all the attention is relished (especially if it's positive) and many transfolk embrace it and wear it like a badge. I LOVE those people but that's just not me. I would like the freedom to choose when I disclose my medical history instead of having it written all over me.
I totally agree, you put that very well indeed :D
Society in general puts a lot of pressure on humans to be 'beautiful'. Even loving yourself for who you are, or for your 'natural beauty' is usually only acceptable within certain perimeters.
Personally, i feel that the idea of 'why can't people just love themselves' is punishing for people who really can't. It's something I've already experienced from cisgendered people, i.e. why is your body so important... and it's something that cis people who, for example, wear make up or have cosmetic surgery probably experience too, because they don't have the ability to flip a switch and discover self esteem from nowhere.
Quote from: Skylar1992 on September 26, 2015, 03:55:02 PM
I am talking about the type of people who transition just for the looks (yes I have known some) and them looking good or not is make and break, people who make videos saying how hard being trans is because they don't look as nice as they thought they would.
Perhaps passing isn't the appropriate word for this thread, as it seems from this statement that you are referencing the need amongst trans women to be beautiful, which is not the same as passing; however, I do not think trans women obsess about beauty any more than cis women do; as a matter of fact, I do believe the Kardashians have taken a selfie or two.
Skylar,
An obsession with passing is rooted in a fear of NOT passing and the possible consequences in public.
However you seem to be alluding to a pursuit of aesthetics beyond "survival", rooted in a patriarchal gender hierarchy which assigns value based on sexual attractiveness.
Actually, Skylar, the ones that get me are the ones who constantly post about how they don't pass, why they think they don't and asking for tips and advice.. Not one of these types ever listens to a single iota of advice that's given to them. Not if it's "You could do X, Y or Z" or a comment that they do actually look quite good. They are convinced they don't pass or blend and because of that, they never will.
Mind you, if I"d listened to the advice I got given here early on, I'd be hiding in a closet still waiting to save money for FFS that I, in reality, have no need for.
Quote from: kittenpower on September 26, 2015, 06:04:02 PM
Perhaps passing isn't the appropriate word for this thread, as it seems from this statement that you are referencing the need amongst trans women to be beautiful, which is not the same as passing; however, I do not think trans women obsess about beauty any more than cis women do; as a matter of fact, I do believe the Kardashians have taken a selfie or two.
Yes and No
How many threads are there that basically boil down to If I cannot pass; If I cannot look beautiful; If I cannot have a Super-Models look; etc. etc I CANNOT transition. Like, are you that drop-dead handsome hunk of humanity you cannot imagine a life without being anything but the equivalent as a female? The obsession made all the stronger fed by envy watching endless You-Tube videos of lucky women that either won the gene pool lottery and/or started hormone therapy at a young age. You can't help but think Why isn't that me? And as someone else said this is primarily a generational phenomenon.
I, like many, obsess about passing. I also have a very low bar for passing. If there aren't rocks being thrown at me or outright derision, or worse, I am a happy camper. I just want to blend in. Not an easy thing for a 6ft tall female but I manage. Do I wish I had the rest of the 6 ft tall Super-Model thing going for me? You bet. Like how many women don't???? Yet, like countless millions of other women I make do with what I have.
If this thread is less about passing, and more about "if I transition, I must be the most beautiful girl in the room", then I will totally switch my response. I have lots to say on the "most beautiful girl" phenomenon too. Those women bug me too. Note, I said women, because it's not only a trans woman phenomenon... The difference is that some trans women can choose to express their authentic selves or continue to suppress themselves if they don't feel they measure up to some feminine ideal(that the vast majority of cis women can't even measure up to).
I'd rather be an ugly* trans woman than a handsome* cis man any day of the week. *by American cultural standards
Maybe I see the opposite, I see a lot anti passing , anti stealth threads.
I do agree on the 'do I pass threads' though, but I'm sure people get enjoyment and self esteem out of them. If someone wanted to know if they pass it's just a matter of going outside. (that is a big step for some people though if you are going to transition you have to do it at some point)
Also depending on your location passing can be essential for your safety.
I'm confused, someone mentioned that life is often worse after grs surgery because then you have to live full time as a woman!?! Well, durh..if you're not truly a woman on the inside, and already transitioning hormonally etc, and prepared to live full time as yourself why the hey are people getting grs before then?! Grs is not oh now i have to live life as the other gender. It is gender affirmation surgery for those who have always been that gender. I don't recommend it for anyone else.
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Quote from: tabbylivehere on September 27, 2015, 07:13:45 AM
I'm confused, someone mentioned that life is often worse after grs surgery because then you have to live full time as a woman!?! Well, durh..if you're not truly a woman on the inside, and already transitioning hormonally etc, and prepared to live full time as yourself why the hey are people getting grs before then?! Grs is not oh now i have to live life as the other gender. It is gender affirmation surgery for those who have always been that gender. I don't recommend it for anyone else.
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Yeah, thats exactly what I am getting at, I have met MANY people who are doing it for the wrong reasons, mainly attention. People who go through hormones to ''try it out'' or because they want to be like a friend who is doing it, I remember being in a gaming clan with someone who claimed to be MtF, when their boyfriend (online relationship) split up with them they stopped the treatment because it was only to be with that guy, seriously, WTF
I think cases like that are why WPATH standards of care are in place. It sucks that we all end up affected by them, because of the few who use transition as a means to some other end...
Quote from: JoanneB on September 26, 2015, 06:50:50 PM
How many threads are there that basically boil down to If I cannot pass; If I cannot look beautiful; If I cannot have a Super-Models look; etc. etc I CANNOT transition. Like, are you that drop-dead handsome hunk of humanity you cannot imagine a life without being anything but the equivalent as a female?
As gatekeeping recedes and Informed Consent gets more common, more and more transition will be by people who do it for the wrong reasons. Eventually the haters will seize on it and it will become a problem that the trans community has to deal with.
The question of OP regarding passing seems irrelevant to ->-bleeped-<- or gender identity. I mean seeking superficial beauty is an essential element of the human species. It is not confined to m2f transgder. It applies to both men, women, kids, elders and all other people.
Global beauty market to reach $265 billion in 2017 d
http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/Market-Trends/Global-beauty-market-to-reach-265-billion-in-2017-due-to-an-increase-in-GDP
In my country, the beauty market is already saturated for women, and an emerging sector is for men.
In South Korea, beauty is skin deep (just make sure to pierce the stubble)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-south-korea-beauty-is-skin-deep-just-make-sure-to-pierce-the-stubble/2015/05/10/4779f642-f354-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html
I will not mention in detail how much money men here invest in preventing hair loss or hair transplantation. Just a glimpse: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2015/07/330_143432.html
And the following is well known worldwide:
The World Capital of Plastic Surgery - The New Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/23/about-face
Everyday TVs and newspapers deliver news on the side effects of beauty medicines and cosmetic surgeries, but people continue to invest in it. You can not stop them. It is their choice.
Finally, IMHO, SRS is another issue beyond 'passing'. SRS can help a little bit pass well, but it is rather irrelevant to passing. HRT may lie between passing and SRS.
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on September 27, 2015, 11:56:23 PM
The question of OP regarding passing seems irrelevant to ->-bleeped-<- or gender identity. I mean seeking superficial beauty is an essential element of the human species. It is not confined to m2f transgder. It applies to both men, women, kids, elders and all other people.
Global beauty market to reach $265 billion in 2017 d
http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/Market-Trends/Global-beauty-market-to-reach-265-billion-in-2017-due-to-an-increase-in-GDP
In my country, the beauty market is already saturated for women, and an emerging sector is for men.
In South Korea, beauty is skin deep (just make sure to pierce the stubble)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-south-korea-beauty-is-skin-deep-just-make-sure-to-pierce-the-stubble/2015/05/10/4779f642-f354-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html
I will not mention in detail how much money men here invest in preventing hair loss or hair transplantation. Just a glimpse: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2015/07/330_143432.html
And the following is well known worldwide:
The World Capital of Plastic Surgery - The New Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/23/about-face
Everyday TVs and newspapers deliver news on the side effects of beauty medicines and cosmetic surgeries, but people continue to invest in it. You can not stop them. It is their choice.
Finally, IMHO, SRS is another issue beyond 'passing'. SRS can help a little bit pass well, but it is rather irrelevant to passing. HRT may lie between passing and SRS.
barbie~~
My thread is not about that, please re read it.
:police:
Ok Calm down.
I don't need the aggression in the posts.
I think you're lumping a few groups of people together in a generalization;
There are people with body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. This leads them to an addiction to a perfect ideal that's out of reach and requires therapy.
There are vain trans* people. The beauty industry is built around making as many products to sell as well as marketing vanity.
People with personality disorders can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and transition doesn't always go well if their dominant alters don't fit the gender they're transitioning to.
There are also trans* people who put off transition and accepting themselves as their chosen gender because they feel it is impossible to achieve results they would be happy with. This is partly due to internalized transphobia and ignorance, and requires therapy and time and acceptance.
There are also people who live in very unsafe places who are very worried about survival. It seems callous to tell them to move before they bother transitioning though.
It isn't that I care about passing, in fact, I've been dating and since I believe in openness and honesty, I out myself. I'd rather be unashamed and open to people, still it sucks when I'm treated less than well because of it.
Hugs,
- Katie
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That's my biggest fear,but on the other hand we are fine,we must have self love,as they say "slow and steady wins the race,hormones won't change us over night.
once I thought that my future was blur, I didn't know about HRT or other things. I'm still living and dressing as a male yeah it sucks,but I'm doing my research about hrt and learning more and more, I want to go for it...I was that many women with 2+ on hrt have an awesome changes in them.. But it's more about how I feel than what others feel,
Happy transformation ladies #transisbeautiful
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Hi Dr. Tina, welcome to Susan's. So very true. I look forward to seeing you around the forums. Good luck and Hugs
Mariah
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While I certainly don't concern myself with passing, and I would never have any interest in living stealth, there are a lot of very valid reasons I understand that other people put a higher priority on those things.
1. Some people are happy standing out with all their special uniqueness on display, and some people are happier if that's more private. Nothing wrong with either way.
2. Even in this day and age, there's the question of safety, dependent a bit on where you live and also other factors (like race); it can be downright dangerous to be a non-passing or non-stealth trans person.
3. There's a lot of pressure from the outside to pass, the assumption that you must want to pass, and so we're bombarded with (sometimes well-intentioned) advice on passing from the cis-people in our lives - doctors, friends, etc. Other people in this thread have smartly compared the desire to pass with the desire to be "beautiful," and the pressure definitely works in the same way. The pressure to pass, or to care about passing, or to try to pass, is a lot like the pressure to be thin. You may not actually want to be. It may not even be healthy for you to be. But the culture we live in tells us that that's the ideal and that we must pursue it, and different people react in different ways to that.
4. I say I don't care about passing and would never want to live stealth, but that may have a significant amount to do with the fact that the people around me - family, friends, coworkers - all treat me like the woman I am without me having to worry about that. If that weren't the case, I might feel differently. Doctors used to advise trans women to move to a new location, start a new job and an entirely new life post transition, in part due to the belief that if people knew you were trans, they would never see you as your true self. Some trans people may feel (maybe even accurately depending on where they're at) that this is still the case.
5. Different trans people feel different ways about their own transness. For me, being trans is a part of my identity and always will be, I value it, so to hide that would feel like going back into the closet - or a whole new closet, maybe. For others, it isn't, and so it feels like being openly or obviously trans could detract from how much people are able to see their true gender.
Basically, there's a lot of circumstantial factors that impact how we're going to feel about passing and stealth. For some people in some circumstances, there's good reasons to worry about passing and stealth may be the best option, for others it isn't.
A difference from cis-women is that m2f transgender people tend to regard the ability of passing as a kind of accomplishment. They have invested time, effort and/or money, together with some degree of courage and adventurous spirit.
barbie~~
Quote from: Mariah2014 on September 28, 2015, 07:16:12 AM
Hi Dr. Tina, welcome to Susan's. So very true. I look forward to seeing you around the forums. Good luck and Hugs
Mariah
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Thanks ma'am. I'll connect you and irritate you by my questions. Can I do that?
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I saw a partially bald preHRT woman whose hair were thin and soft with low hair density, but after 2 years on hrt she had beautiful hair... Those were thick and strong..
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everyone want to feel good about themselves, I think it's ok to post the passing thread. Getting encourage or positive feedback on self is good sometime. Also get some idea for self development too. Especially trans who just begin their transition, they need support.
When I start my transition, everyone gave me a lot negative feedback until I was like super depress. I thought I don't need to care about them, but the fact that I cared. All I want that time was just someone to tell me that I'm beautiful. That's it, help a lot.
You might not understand why someone obsess with passing. Well, you don't need to, just understand the fact that people are different. And it doesn't hurt anyone.
I don't pass, and probably won't unless and until I get FFS, VFS, and a few thousand dollars' of marvelous clothes.
And I accept that. I don't pass. But, there are some days when "the looks", "the giggles", and the misgendering gets me down, and I wish I could pass.
But since I can't, dammit I'm gonna be my own happily unique snowflake. It's "those people" who have the problem.
Passing is important for many people for various reasons.
It sure helps getting and keeping a job if you pass.
It is affirming to be hear proper pronouns organically.
It is statistically safer to pass.
I want to clarify that I don't define passing as being able to be stealth or simply being pretty.
Passing is about being congruent in presentation. About not not evoking a something is off feeling. Or say an unconscious negative reaction.
This allows one to make a neutral or positive first impression.
I've found that a moderate smile and a sincere "Good morning!" (or similarly appropriate greeting) does miracles in setting a good first impression.
I had to pass. I had to have work to support my children. This was 30 years ago when "being trans" as a word set didn't even exist. Neither did the internet. Sure I wanted to be pretty. Doesn't every girl? But I was happy just to be invisible in a crowd. I've lived most of my adult life in stealth. I don't care about that now that I've retired early. I'm prepared to live alone and enjoy my friendships with the close friends I have. If I move, I'll keep in contact, visit when I can, and I'll make new friends.
I think that the obsession to be beautiful is unhealthy. Beauty to me is a talent you are born with or not. But the obsession "to pass" is very real to many starting down this path. I've been there and I understand it. We still have lots of discrimination going around. You don't have to be beautiful to pass, you just don't want to stand out as something "other." I'm sure this is the reason the standards of care include one year working and living full time in your gender. You need to put yourself out there and learn to live with what talents you have. I know many trans people personally. Some don't give a nit about what other people think. Some just want to pass. And others want to be drop dead gorgeous. Everyone is different, even in what the outsiders call the "trans community." Hah. We have no community. Many of us are terrified to be associated with each other for fear of getting discovered. I understand that too. I felt that way in the first few years because I WAS discovered that way from a friend who would not cease calling me at work and insisting to the operator to call her "she and her." That was my first job where no one knew about my past but I'm sure they had some questions. I was still clumsy and afraid. This friend was an idiot to ignore my simple request. FWIW, I asked all my friends to not call me at work unless someone died or there was an emergency. I was there to work and be paid, not to chit chat on the phone.
I'm between 5'10" and 5'11" and I'll wear three inch wedges sometimes. I do that because I like to wear them. They are cute. Everyone can see the tall lady. I don't care.... because I'm confident "to pass." I still have many prominent male features. I didn't get FFS or a trace shave. My wide shoulders are minimized somewhat by my big fat head and I have no rear end or hips. My voice still sounds like a pubescent teenage boy. But I pass because I want to. I don't care about all my little oddities anymore. I'm thrilled that my confidence pulls it off. Do I think I'm cute? Oh yeah, baby! Beautiful? No way, that would be my daughter.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 28, 2015, 07:38:59 PM
.... I don't care.... because I'm confident "to pass." I still have many prominent male features. I didn't get FFS or a trace shave. My wide shoulders are minimized somewhat by my big fat head and I have no rear end or hips. My voice still sounds like a pubescent teenage boy. But I pass because I want to. I don't care about all my little oddities anymore. I'm thrilled that my confidence pulls it off. Do I think I'm cute? Oh yeah, baby! Beautiful? No way, that would be my daughter.
I love your attitude.
I hope I can have the same attitude -- and own it -- when I've transitioned far enough for it to be relevant.
Quote from: Asche on October 29, 2015, 08:52:40 AM
I love your attitude.
I hope I can have the same attitude -- and own it -- when I've transitioned far enough for it to be relevant.
;)
Look, you need to develop confidence and self esteem early on in the process. It took me far to long to do that. But I eventually did. You can work on it now, even before full transition. Ask your therapist to help. I've done that several times. This has been a bad year for me with a difficult divorce. First thing I did after he told me he was leaving for someone else was call my new therapist. And she's helping me with those things again along with the divorce and abuse issues. So, yes, I do have that attitude most of the time. But it gets dinged and bent from time to time.
Cindi
Quote from: Deborah on September 26, 2015, 11:32:16 AM
I imagine that for most it's rooted in a fear of public rejection and ridicule.
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This is so spot on
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Why would you not want to pass? If you are MTF and you wish to affirm your gender identity physically (socially) why would you want to be seen as nothing more than a man wearing a dress and make up? Who wants to be a target?
Quote from: metamorphique on October 30, 2015, 09:52:11 PM
Why would you not want to pass? If you are MTF and you wish to affirm your gender identity physically (socially) why would you want to be seen as nothing more than a man wearing a dress and make up? Who wants to be a target?
There's a difference between "not passing" and being seen as a male. People with a nuanced understanding of gender identity can recognize that you're a woman without you having to pass as cis.
Quote from: metamorphique on October 30, 2015, 09:52:11 PM
Why would you not want to pass? If you are MTF and you wish to affirm your gender identity physically (socially) why would you want to be seen as nothing more than a man wearing a dress and make up? Who wants to be a target?
I don't pass for a variety of reasons, but here's the thing, I'm seen as a woman and treated like one.. No ugly comments, no odd looks in the the ladies room.
OK, I live in Australia, which seems to be a little more tolerant than many other places, but I've never felt like a target. Not once.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 28, 2015, 07:38:59 PM
We still have lots of discrimination going around. You don't have to be beautiful to pass, you just don't want to stand out as something "other."
That's probably the hugest reason why I may seem so "obsessed" with passing right now. I really am not trying to snag any type of attention or anything. No, not me. I'm way too socially awkward and anxious to really want any of that! In fact, my so-called "obsession" of passing is what, I feel, will help to garner me much
less attention! =D And that's like all I ask for when it comes to passing. I only want to appear natural. Trust me when I say, "I do
not want attention!" No offense to androgynous/gender-fluid individuals, but that's why I could absolutely not keep going this way, other than the fact that deep down, I've always felt more
male-minded anyways.
So Cindi, I totally feel ya there about not ever wanting to be seen as something other than what you're presenting yourself as, which in our cases we are speaking on behalf of our gender identity.
And kudos to you for standing up and being able to express yourself in this way without being vain about it. So awesome.
~Nixy~Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 28, 2015, 07:38:59 PM
I'll wear three inch wedges sometimes. I do that because I like to wear them. They are cute.
Haha. I still think wedges are cute too. And hell, you can wear them simply cause you want to. I feel like we should be able to where whatever we damn well please. As long as its not derogatory or insulting in some way(i.e. a T-shirt featuring racial slurs, for example).
No, I don't like to actually wear wedges. I used to wear them in the past when I lived intentionally as a woman. But man did I ever suck at walkin' in those things. I'm way too much of a klutzy ogre to strut in those and make them look as sexy as you're sure to make them look. ;)
~Nixy~
It's because I don't want to be treated like a man or a freak.
I don't try to be the most beautiful, I just am ordinary.
I don't obsess about passing either. It just happens for me.
Wanting to pass is natural. Especially early on, when people are trying to figure out whether they need to transition, or should transition... The fear of transitioning and then being a freak and outcast for the rest of one's life is very real. It sucks that this is still a thing - that people will laugh at you on the street or subway when they "see through your disguise" (their thoughts, not mine!). But that's the way things are right now.
So yeah, people want to pass. I don't think confusing "passing" with wanting to "look beautiful" is a good idea or a healthy one. People want to be seen as a woman for both internal reasons (validation of self identity) and external reasons (safety and not being outcast).
It's not an obsession for me, I suppose, but it is important. Firstly as a full on transsexual rather than someone who's wanting to blur gender lines, I wish all the time that I'd been born fully formed female. So with that in mind, why wouldn't I want to? :) And, to be honest and I don't want to cause offence, I'm not interested in presenting myself as a separate species, or a weird hybrid or pushing the boundaries of gender. All I want is the rest of the world to see me as I see myself.
Plus, I think, if you want to take on female roles then surely you have to do as much as you can to really live them. This stage of life is frustrating, like being stuck in an airport terminal. All I want is to get out of it!! For me transition is a process, not an end. If anyone can relate to that? Where it ends is with me completing all I need to do to live as a woman without the problems associated with having my gender identity questioned all the time. For me, and it's happened in male clothes oddly, it was an extremely unpleasant experience. And it's happened more than once!! Being accosted in the street and having to justify my presence on the planet to a group of jeering blokes wasn't fun. >:(
And finally there are safety issues as well. I'm passable, some people I know are not, and they do get stared at and laughed at and excluded. That doesn't happen to me. But then I don't want it to, I just want to be able to go shopping, wander round in town and go out with my friends without the abrasive presence of constant ridicule. And sadly the way out of that isn't to be some strong trans-woman, it's just to be a very ordinary and boring looking woman-woman.
If that sounds like the easy way out, then I'm sorry :embarrassed: I've tried life the hard way and failed at it so the last thing I'm capable of is being the public face of ->-bleeped-<-. I just can't do it. I'm not strong enough. So if that means doing everything to be passable, then I shall do everything to be passable. I also have to! Not everyone likes transgender people; and one way to avoid this is not to alert yourself to them. I can't afford to really either :( Part of what makes me passable in the classic sense also makes things hard when relating to men. I've got no physical presence, no strength. I can't intimidate people or shout or do anything in particular to defend myself should someone decide to attack. I've had to live in fear of men, their brutishness and aggression, my whole life and I still do so. I'm not saying they're all bad, far from it, but some are and they'd break my wrists with one hand. I suppose it's all part of living without many of the aspects of male privilege.
And finally I can't do that to my family and my friends either.
If that sounds weak, then it is :-*
Missy xx
Single White Female desperately seeks normal life!!
Missy D, I know exactly where you are coming from. And I think that is the goal for most of us. So, go for it!
I think that we have enough traction now to be visible while hiding. Sort of like the gay movement 20 years ago. And with what gays have done for us by including us in the LGBT acronym, social acceptance isn't all that far out. I hope to see it in my lifetime.
Cindi
I think the one BIG reason is that we want to fit in w/ the GGs. Some of us , me included didn't fit it w/ the guys when I was a guy. I do feel that I fit in a lot better w/ most of my GGs. altho a few are a bit jealous that I've come over to the winning side. LOL I say that it took so long because I was waiting for my uniform to arrive. One thing as a girl I haven't been able to master is high heels. I wear flats & 2" heels but anything higher I feel like Bambi on Ice. My GF/mentor Vikki giggles when I try to walk in heels. I somehow feel that if I don't master high heels, then I wont be 100% as a girl. Any advice? I practice until I wear a rut in our carpeting but still, after 2+ years, Nada!