In another topic recently there was some discussion about early vs late TS's. I'm really interested in learning
more about this and I hope that everyone can use this thread to discuss the topic not snipe at each other.
I believe that some members of this forum that are early TS's believe the older TS is not really TS, if they were they would
have done everything possible to transition.
I have a theory about my personal situation that may be full of holes but here it is: I believe that my drive to do something
about my condition allowed me to somehow suppress the feelings. Maybe there are degrees of the TS afflictions. I also feel like
the total lack of information when I was dealing with my symptoms in the 70's may have played a role. I really did not know what
TS was until about a year ago. I just accepted the way I was and never associated it anything like TS.
A few questions that might get things started, you don't have to answer every question, they are just food for thought.
Does anyone have statistics of what percentage of TS's transition early vs late?
Anyone know what the early vs late demographic is on this forum?
If you were late TS's did you always know what TS was?
Is a late TS's something different?
Does every late TS's marry, have kids and then decide?
If you are an early TS, how do you perceive the late TS?
If you were a late TS and have transitioned, would you do it again?
There are so many reasons some transition later in life (especially if you were born before the internet). For some, there simply was no help available to help them understand what was going on. For others they understood too late and they had married already (to see if it would supress there feeling).
So many reasons it could take pages of text to go into.
I am sure many who transitioned later in life would have loved to have correct information available to them earlier in life.
The old saying, "If I only knew then what I know now" can be so true.
Sarah L.
I would just like to add one question to this topic.
what is the age where you pass over from an early transition to a late transition?
Another question, what is the typical age for early transition? I'm guessing somewhere around 25?
Posted on: September 25, 2007, 02:17:30 PM
Sarah: what you say is so true.
Is it possible that most if not all late TS's would have done so a long time
ago had the proper information been available to them?
If we see a drastic reduction in late TS's starting around the year 2030 (age 15 in 2000, plus 30 years) we will have a concrete answer.
Even if they did not transition for some reason, their life would have been a heck of a lot easier. They would not have had doctors tell them they were crazy and needed to be put away for mental help.
Sarah L.
The most predominant area of transsexuality in my opinion and with my experience is the remarkable way in which TSes of all ages make comparisons with one another. There seems almost an "I'm better than you because..." mentality to the entire spectrum of TSes.
I do believe that some people find out more readily, particularly in the time before the 90s and even before the advent of rather cheap PCs. At the point I got my first home computer, 2001, there was an overabundance of information on the internet for anyone, TS or not, to read and follow if they found that was their path.
I have noticed through the years a predominance of "computer geek" transsexuals. Often, I think, given the predominance of internet information, persons with access through their work or hobbies became better acquainted earlier with the information. Others were, perhaps, less fortunate.
I always believed until 2001 that "I was maybe the only one." Althoughy I had heard of Christine Jorgenson, she was about it.
That informational lack for a small-town mountain girl in the South and a very severe trauma associated with my sexual/gender ambiguity in 1971 was the absolute bashing of my early desires to live in the correct gender.
Others may have other reasons, but I would suggest that availability of services, knowledge distribution and negative life-experiences are big reasons why fewer woman and men of older years transitioned early than seems to be the case now.
People are who and what they are. I have lotsa flaws and am often willing to admit them. Nor am I particularly prone to indicate that I am "better" than another when it comes to my former transsexuality. We are given the walks we are given and choose. I don't perceive that there is blame or even credit in much of that.
The fact that you have discovered this part of yourself late simply is what it is. I don't think that people who grew up on the internet are any better or worse, more or less priveleged than people who were transsexual who lived in the Stone Age: the one where people made implements only from stone and wood.
Nichole
I really do not like to distinguish, but I do notice a HUGE generation gap where I cannot relate on a ton of levels with anybody older than 35. Something often gets lost with age. I wish I could describe it, but something does.
I am 29, and well I started transition when I was 28. I also lived most of my teen years in what is now called genderqueer (it was androgyne when I was in my teens), largely because I did not know about transition when I was in HS, could not transition in college or law school, and it was a very good place to hide. But I did make a long term plan with the thought I may eventually transition. Like many young ones who plan things out (as supposed to jumping into things) I had to set out contingencies for the rest of my life and what would happen if my parents rejected me (which is what happened). I was very deliberate. I made a ton of mistakes along the way, but I am finally where I need to be. My goal was to be full time in ten years when I planned things out at with transition being a possibility at 29. Needless to say, I planned things quite well, with only one thing not considered.
The truth is when older TS talk about losing there friends, I really cannot understand. All of my friends have been very supportive, and honestly still talk to me now that I am full time. Shock! Again this is part of the generational gap, and I use 35 as a cut off age for a reason, because that is the age when the gap starts to happen.
I like to break transitioners into three groups: very young (those who are between the ages of 14-19), young (20-35) and late (anything over 35). Most young ones transition in their early or mid-twenties, with the exception being those who opt for graduate school, who tend to do it in their late twenties.
I stress this because the experiences transitioning for the three age groups are very different in many ways, before, during and after transition. As is the general personal history. Those who think its not, well...I hate to break it to you it is.
This does not mean the older transitioners are any less valid. They come from a different time when resources were scarce and transition itself was extremely rare. People often forget how much has changed in the last five years. The environment to transition is much friendlier. I think this is often forgotten by many younger transitioners who question those transitioning later in life. Gender conformity was tremendously more strict, and the opportunity to seek ones true self was significantly harder to obtain.
With that being said I can't relate to the very young ones on other levels.
It's difficult to put numbers on how many early to late transitioners there are. Part of that is because the ways society has been changing has affected people coming out and transitioning. So part of the question is did you come out later in life because you could deal with it longer or because society was less accepting back when you would have come out? People are transitioning earlier and earlier partly because they can. There is more information available to them, and there is more opportunity to make it work.
If I had come out when I was 18, at that time the age of majority in Iowa, it would have been 1970. In 1973 they were still sending people to get electroshock treatment for being transsexual. And please remember that my brother had been committed to a mental hospital. I was very afraid of that happening to me.
Today an 18 yo coming out is sent to a therapist and is started on HRT. It's a much different world today.
Quote from: Amy T. on September 25, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
I really do not like to distinguish, but I do notice a HUGE generation gap where I cannot relate on a ton of levels with anybody older than 35. Something often gets lost with age. I wish I could describe it, but something does.
I am 29, and well I started transition when I was 28. I also lived most of my teen years in what is now called genderqueer (it was androgyne when I was in my teens), largely because I did not know about transition when I was in HS, could not transition in college or law school, and it was a very good place to hide. But I did make a long term plan with the thought I may eventually transition. Like many young ones who plan things out (as supposed to jumping into things) I had to set out contingencies for the rest of my life and what would happen if my parents rejected me (which is what happened). I was very deliberate. I made a ton of mistakes along the way, but I am finally where I need to be. My goal was to be full time in ten years when I planned things out at with transition being a possibility at 19. Needless to say, I planned things quite well, with only one thing not considered.
The truth is when older TS talk about losing there friends, I really cannot understand. All of my friends have been very supportive, and honestly still talk to me now that I am full time. Shock! Again this is part of the generational gap, and I use 35 as a cut off age for a reason, because that is the age when the gap starts to happen.
I like to break transitioners into three groups: very young (those who are between the ages of 14-19), young (20-35) and late (anything over 35). Most young ones transition in their early or mid-twenties, with the exception being those who opt for graduate school, who tend to do it in their late twenties.
I stress this because the experiences transitioning for the three age groups are very different in many ways, before, during and after transition. As is the general personal history. Those who think its not, well...I hate to break it to you it is.
This does not mean the older transitioners are any less valid. They come from a different time when resources were scarce and transition itself was extremely rare. People often forget how much has changed in the last five years. The environment to transition is much friendlier. I think this is often forgotten by many younger transitioners who question those transitioning later in life. Gender conformity was tremendously more strict, and the opportunity to seek ones true self was significantly harder to obtain.
With that being said I can't relate to the very young ones on other levels.
I would like to just say that I completely enjoy how you have worded what you have said here! where you have made generalities you have stated it in a way to show you are speaking just from your own experiences and that it isn't for sure the only way that is possible and you have made it clear that you are talking about majorities and not every single person!
I guess I would be considered an "early transitioner" by Amy's post. But still, I think we all go through the same phases, just with the internet and all this wide support and a more accepting world, now things are becoming easier.
We were talking about sexual orientation today in my sociology class, and of course there was nothing about transsexuals in there, heh, but it's still astounding how much has changed over the years. Still, in todays world, I still believe we are the left out group of society.
Comparing "early" and "late" TS's is sort of hard to do. I think there are some prejudices against younger ones myself, just because my therapist probably would have had an easier time giving a HRT letter to an older TS rather than a young one. Also, this is my opinion and mine only, because some of you will probably protest this. . . But I believe that "older" TS's have more self confidence and esteem than the younger ones. But I believe in time that the young one's will develop this too.
And to answer your question amanda, in regards to the how do we/I percieve older TS. . . I just think it's something they had to wait to do. I understand how technology and support didn't exist some years ago for these things to be happening. Also, there was a larger risk of violence as well, so it's understandable to procrastinate a situation as large as this. I'm sure they are still as happy with the end results mentally.
Excellent posts!
Amy: Could it be that the younger ones that are accepted by friends after they come out TS is because they are "genderqueer" and
and there is not as much of a shock as the late TS that goes from married with kids to TS?
What about the generational gap? Would you feel the same gap if the person were not TS? Or is it just with TS's?
When you started planning (around 1995??) the Internet was a baby. I would guess that no useful info was on it until 2000 or so. Would you agree? What was the source of your info? Were you in a larger city?
Nichole: My first observation from reading posts from this and other forums was that the IQ (Myself excluded) of the posters seems to be much higher than your typical internet forum. Since making that observation I've read that TS's are often very intelligent. Do you think TS is common in computer nerds because of a typically higher IQ? Or because of the access to information? In my case being very computer savvy did not help because I did not relate my condition to TS.
There are many reasons why people held off, like you had all mentioned. It was the times, lack of info, FEAR, losing jobs, being labeled as crazy, then they still used terms like that.
Like Lisbeth mentioned they still used shock treatments on patients in the seventies. You didn't know if you'd be commited or what.
In the 70s people were still afraid to report their boss or co-workers for sexuall harassment. Rape victoms didn't want to report rapes. Even though times were good, when you think about it, things sure were different 30 years ago that what they are today. ::)
The clothes sucked in the seventies too. :P
I guess I'm an "early TS" since I transitioned and am currently living stealth at the age of 19.
I don't perceive those who transitioned later as not TS at all. I have nothing but respect for those who were able to live and survive all those years in their assigned gender while battling it out mentally. I don't think I could have done it. But I know also that things are way different now then they were in the last few decades- it may not have been an option to transition even if that is something one wanted to do.
I feel there is a little bit of a bias in the medical field when it comes to age still. Rather than feeling that those older who have already done all right in their assigned gender role should continue as such (not something I feel, but there are a few medical "professionals" out there who take this position), some also believe that us young'ns don't have enough life experience behind us to honestly say whether we're physically and mentally ready for transition. It's very difficult to get medical professionals to trust you before the age of 30, in my opinion. It takes time, and a great deal of patience. But, obviously, it's possible and here I am.
Did my post make sense? I tried to address everything that I could with my experience.
I found your post to be very well thought out and very respectful Lane!
I suppose I'd be late, starting at 42. I didn't even know it was possible to go from female to male until about 7 years before I transitioned. At the time I did find out, I was under such stress from starting a career that I had invested a lot of years and money training for, that I couldn't even think of risking it. Eventually it caught up to me though and I did transition.
I doubt that there's one universal reason for people managing to suppress their feelings. And I find it presumptuous that someone in his or her 20's could even think that they're in a comparable situation to the one I or any of the other "older transitioners" were in at their age.
I know I'm darn good at suppressing anything I don't want to think about - even physical pain. I lived with a badly abscessed tooth for 2 months waiting for my dental plan to kick in. Others may not be as able to focus through mental or physical discomfort.
Dennis
I have to echo what Elizabeth said. I first started feeling "like a girl" in the early '70's as well, and I did a lot of research on my feelings at the university level during 1971-74. Apparently, I never ran across Harry Benjamin's early research, and everything that I found during that time related TSism to sexually related behavior problems. I knew I wasn't gay, had incorrect feelings for my mom, or anything else like that. So I chose to think of myself as just kind of different, and I attempted to go on with life, stuffing the feelings as I went along. In spite of being caught crossdressing in high school (1970) I never admitted anything until I went for counseling in 1999.
Things would have been far easier had that happened today.
Carol
Quote from: Kiera on September 25, 2007, 04:44:21 PM
Quote from: Lane on September 25, 2007, 04:27:13 PMDid my post make sense? I tried to address everything that I could with my experience.
Yes! Very well said Lane! Although I composed a rather lenghtly reply myself I have since decided to stick to my guns and not touch this ludicrous topic with an even very long stick . . . ;)
Bottom Line Is I Do Not Envy You "Young Transitioners" At All because I feel you are automatically limiting your ability to experience certain things in life while at the same time opening up a whole new wealth of problems that most of us "older crowd" probably already have behind us.
:icon_bunch:
I don't think because were young were asking people to "envy" us. . . But can I ask what we are automatically limiting ourselves to? I just ask out of curiosity.
ok I was going to try to stay away from talking about this as I figured that I had said plenty yesterday but the temptation has gotten the better of me (I am so weak against temptation it gets me in trouble all the time!)
at age 32 I guess I fall into the older portion of the young catergory but I have known exactly how I have felt for many many years and I still had not done anything (this has nothing to do with level of importance to me) I am married I have children and I have had several fears of damaging my children and hurting my wife I was worried that my wife would resent and hate me for not being the man she married (the funny part to that is she has said that she doesn't think we would have ever lasted if she hadn't gotten to see the true me!) I come from an old fashioned southern family that I was afraid of hurting. my grandmother who was the most important person to me while I grew up would most likely have never understood. and as far as the fairness to my wife and children I have always wanted to be a parent and I have been a very good parent! my wife plans to stay with me we have been having sex as lesbians for the last three years and we both prefere it.
anywaythese reasons may not seem valid to anyone else for waiting but they are valid for me and I cannot personally try to invalidate anyones reason for whatever age they come to the point that they can nolonger stand to live the lie and when someone else finally gets to start living thier lives in a way that makes them happy I am happy for them nomatter what age they are at the time. and as far as an age gap goes I have always been able to relate to people who were older than me better than people my age or younger people anyway so I guess I didn't feel the age gap as much as some. but I do enjoy the company of people of all ages!
Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 25, 2007, 05:13:18 PM
ok I was going to try to stay away from talking about this as I figured that I had said plenty yesterday but the temptation has gotten the better of me (I am so weak against temptation it gets me in trouble all the time!)
at age 32 I guess I fall into the older portion of the young catergory but I have known exactly how I have felt for many many years and I still had not done anything (this has nothing to do with level of importance to me) I am married I have children and I have had several fears of damaging my children and hurting my wife I was worried that my wife would resent and hate me for not being the man she married (the funny part to that is she has said that she doesn't think we would have ever lasted if she hadn't gotten to see the true me!) I come from an old fashioned southern family that I was afraid of hurting. my grandmother who was the most important person to me while I grew up would most likely have never understood. and as far as the fairness to my wife and children I have always wanted to be a parent and I have been a very good parent! my wife plans to stay with me we have been having sex as lesbians for the last three years and we both prefere it.
anywaythese reasons may not seem valid to anyone else for waiting but they are valid for me and I cannot personally try to invalidate anyones reason for whatever age they come to the point that they can nolonger stand to live the lie and when someone else finally gets to start living thier lives in a way that makes them happy I am happy for them nomatter what age they are at the time. and as far as an age gap goes I have always been able to relate to people who were older than me better than people my age or younger people anyway so I guess I didn't feel the age gap as much as some. but I do enjoy the company of people of all ages!
That makes complete sense. I don't understand why you were shying away from the reply :P
as my wife tells me I talk too much and after yesterday I wanted to let others get thier view points in before commenting my views come across a little strong at times and I didn't want to let it scare anyone away from having thier own personal opinions heard!
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Happy birthday :) :) ;D
the kids part somtimes makes it hard to know what the right thing to do is.
Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Yeah, that's one of the only differences I think is the kids. Not to mention my parents pay for my therapy as well, but I pay for pretty much everything else. That's the other problem, being in college, and having no money because of cars, insurance, college, books. The older you are the more well off you are I think as well for income wise.
*Sighs* here we go again. I have actually promised myself not to give my POV regarding issues such as these anymore. Instead, I have decided to provide links so that people can draw their own conclusions from them.
http://www.looking-glass.greenend.org.uk/primer.htm
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2945651_ITM
http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/psychology.html
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/primary.html
http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_transsexuals
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)
https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 01:30:54 PM
I believe that some members of this forum that are early TS's believe the older TS is not really TS..
Yup. There are a number of locked threads around here from the resulting bitterness and hurt feelings. Whatcha gonna do? There's always going to be SOME reason you're not a "real TS" to someone else. I try to ignore all that stuff (not easy, as it's just TOO juicy a topic).
But in the end, the point of transitioning is to be a REAL YOU, not a real TS, or even a real woman, IMHO.
QuoteIf you were late TS's did you always know what TS was?
I transitioned at 42, but there was never a time when I didn't feel an excruciating, desperate need to be a female in this world. I didn't know what I felt was called TSism though - I thought I was the only one who felt this way. And I figured there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
The internet changed all that about a decade ago for me. I learned it was a known condition, and that there were things you could do to fix it. Even so, I never believed it would work for me. I figured I'd just end up a feminized male, an outcast, not a woman or a man. But I eventually realized that if I didn't at least TRY, I was going to die as a man, and would NEVER be female. That thought... omg, it's just intolerable.
QuoteIs a late TS's something different?
You mean is it really GID? God if I know. Does it matter though? I was miserable at age 41. I transitioned at 42. I'm living as the girl I always was now at 43, and I can't put into words how joyous I am in my soul. That doesn't mean I don't my own problems and struggles, because I sure do, lol... but DEEP down, I've found a peace at last I never thought possible.
QuoteDoes every late TS's marry, have kids and then decide?
Many do, probably even most. I married, but avoided kids because I feared they would trap me from transitioning. Sigh. I really should have admitted that to my wife sooner. Heck, I shoulda admitted it to myself sooner.
I think early transitioners have this idea that those of us who married had this perfectly wonderful heterosexual male life, and we just suddenly made this "lifestyle choice" one day as a mid-life crisis.
Yea, well, not even close. My "marriage" has been seventeen years of a wonderful friendship, but... no real romance. No deep intimacy. Very rare and reluctant (from me) sex. It's been wonderful and blessed in many, many ways. But... there was always this demon we struggled with from the very beginning.
QuoteIf you were a late TS and have transitioned, would you do it again?
OMG, are you kidding me? I lost NOTHING in transition... and gained my very LIFE. My existing friends are great with it, and I actually *gained* friends since transitioning. Not to mention my relationships with (my wife's) relatives became much deeper and emotional. People I barely knew before all this now track ME down to go to dinner and just sit around and talk. God, I'm crying as I type this... I just cannot put into words how unbelievably lucky and blessed I've been since doing this. It's like the entire world was just waiting for me to arrive, and now it's just welcoming me home every single day of my life.
~Kate~
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 04:09:22 PM
Excellent posts!
Amy: Could it be that the younger ones that are accepted by friends after they come out TS is because they are "genderqueer" and
and there is not as much of a shock as the late TS that goes from married with kids to TS?
What about the generational gap? Would you feel the same gap if the person were not TS? Or is it just with TS's?
When you started planning (around 1995??) the Internet was a baby. I would guess that no useful info was on it until 2000 or so. Would you agree? What was the source of your info? Were you in a larger city?
Nichole: My first observation from reading posts from this and other forums was that the IQ (Myself excluded) of the posters seems to be much higher than your typical internet forum. Since making that observation I've read that TS's are often very intelligent. Do you think TS is common in computer nerds because of a typically higher IQ? Or because of the access to information? In my case being very computer savvy did not help because I did not relate my condition to TS.
From my other girlfriends who are TS and younger, me having a background as somebody living with a degree of androgyny is unique and unusual for transwomen. I could say even in my twenties I stuck to this to a certian degree, but it got harder and harder to maintain but also deal with. It just wasn't me. But the truth is the genderqueer background is unique amoung MtF TS (and more common with FtM). I know only one other girl who took up a queer identity, who was a very femme gay guy (radical fairy) and then transitioned to female.
I personally lived near Chicago which has a very long history of androgyny in the subculture dating back to the 70's that was different than the Bowie type. It was significantly more about questioning gender identity by the nineties though. Again I lived in a city where this was socially accepted by some people.
I had an alternative to being strictly male and gravitated towards it the minute I was given the opportunity. Not everybody had this, and I understand this. Between 14-21 I was passing as female 50% and male 50% at times, no hormones, it was just the way I was. Also I was in college in 1996, and 19 in 1997.
The friends accepting is not universal, but it is part of the generation gap. I find keeping ones friends is common for those under 30 if they had friends before transition (many are socially isolated). Then again there is also a subcultural context. certain communities are very accepting. Goths, Punks, Emo (grumble) and Twee Kids, are well...accepting communities. I am part of the twee pop community, which is dominated by women, DIY craft fairs, and was built on the philosophy that its okay to be girly no matter who you are. Its a community where most people love Morrissey and has read his interviews on gender identity, so they are even have somewhat of an understanding. Many are the accepting third wave feminists. I could go on, but needless to say having a subcultural identity helped out with me keeping my friends. Younger trans people who have a subcultural identity tend to do pretty well in terms of keeping friends, because we sorround ourselves with understanding people.
Also I refused to make friends with anybody who is republican, and that helps quite a bit.
Okay the genderqueer background probably did help, so did not really feeling right being male and not really acting like one, but I really couldn't. Its a different background, but the truth is some of us can only suppress so much of ourselves, eventually who we are comes out to a degree even when hiding. Nearly ALL of my friends picked up on this. Extremely effeminate was used regularly when talking about me.
I luckily never married, never had kids. In fact I can't imagine why anybody who is trans would. But that is my perspective, not everybody has this.
Then again...I probably fall under the primary category in some ways. I never really fit in even when I was a kid I was always a gender variant, even though I was unaware of it myself.
Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
*Sighs* here we go again. I have actually promised myself not to give my POV regarding issues such as these anymore.
clever! there comes a time when questions like these don't matter anymore. one turns into the
spectator & observes the typhon from a distance. ;)
Quote from: Sarah Louise on September 25, 2007, 01:59:15 PM
There are so many reasons some transition later in life (especially if you were born before the internet). For some, there simply was no help available to help them understand what was going on. For others they understood too late and they had married already (to see if it would supress there feeling).
So many reasons it could take pages of text to go into.
I am sure many who transitioned later in life would have loved to have correct information available to them earlier in life.
The old saying, "If I only knew then what I know now" can be so true.
Sarah L.
Sarah, You've nailed it really.........
There's also the struggles to access treatment and you can run into fanancial problems. I was dignosed with gender dysphoria at 24 and I'm still trying to access treatment in my 40's......it must be the longest RLT in history at around 20 years now..
In a lot of cases the Early TS becomes the Late TS.....usually through no fault of their own......
I find that a lot of TS ppl who are older are transitioning now. Younger ppl are starting to transition now, too. I don't know if that was so true in the past, or how many people transition now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and the age range.
I also think that access to information is a key player age demographics and etc. Things are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.
I started when I was 27 and I'm 28 going on 29 in a couple of months. But this isn't my first "attempt."
When I was a kid, my mom talked to the doctors and I also went in a few times. The idea at the time was that gender is completely social. Not an uncommon theory in the '80s. Because I was so effeminate, the believe was that if I were forced into doing male things and having a male role model, I would be more male and be "saved from a life of torment" etc, etc. This continued on for a long time, up into my teens.
In my teens I tried to kill myself. I also tried to cut my own male appendage off (very unsuccessfully, which now I understand was good as cutting it off would have made it more difficult for SRS -- the condition is good, just a minor scar that is barely visible, so no problems). They church tried to help me and I tried, once again, to do male things and bury myself in church things.
When I graduated, I was pushed to go on a mission for the church. It was believed that maybe it would help me become more of a man. During my mission I was also undergoing therapy by the church to become more of a guy (to cure my "trans feelings"). The church also had a doctor who put me on a lot of medications, such as anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and the works. I was taking a cocktail of 32 pills a day. The theory was that my depression/bipolar was the cause of my girly feelings, and that the drugs would help cut those feelings of depression and the anti-psychotics would help get rid of any delusions that I "was a girl." The therapy would help and I would some how end up being a guy.
It didn't work. I just got sick, more depressed, and I tried to hurt myself several times during that mission.
When I got home, I was in such a state that I was very ill and -- excuse my french -- very ->-bleeped-<-ed up. I went from mental hospital to mental hospital, and tried to take my life several times. Eventually, my doses were cut until I was totally off the drugs.
Once off the drugs I tried to transition again. However, I lived with my brother, a member of the church, and the family found out. I avoided the church as much as I could, but my family bugged me a lot about it. My brother embarrassed me in public. I had no friends and no internet access and no support. I felt very alone and once again, fell into a depression as I grabbed a razor blade and started to cut my body all over.
I then grew a beard and tried to hide my feelings. I tried to be as male as I could. Not that I was great at is, because I'd be quite effeminate and a lot of people thought I was "gay." I had one ex-girlfriend that would always complain how girly I was. How the way I'd sit, jester, and so on was too girly for her.
So, even after all of that therapy, drugs, and self-denial, Natalie was still there. Natalie was hard-wired.
It took years to recover from the abuse I had when I was younger and in my late-teens and early twenties. The drugs that were used on me caused a lot of damage. My liver was toast for a long time and hormones weren't an option for me then (scary thing). I had brain damage that caused me to shake as if I had parkensons disease, which I had to take meds for, including anti seizure meds. But, to my doctors amazement, I healed and my liver bounced back in a few years (it's in great condition) and my shaking went down well enough that I could function and now it's not noticeable (and I'm no longer on meds for it either). There was a time that the shaking was so bad that I couldn't write with a pen, I couldn't hold a glass of water and drink from it, and eating with a fork meant stabbing myself in the face since I couldn't control it well. Now a days, I can eat and drink normally except that I'm a bit of a klutz with my motor skills and I spill stuff on myself or all over, or randomly drop things, etc.
And so, I've been off all medication for several years now. I still get the ups and downs of bipolar, but I've learned to cope with it although at times it has gotten bad. I could take medication, but part of me is really afraid of being on the medication again. The depression can be hard.
I'm glad that my liver is good so that I can now take HRT (and I've been taking it for over a year now and my liver is still doing great).
One other thing I did before I started to transition -- I got out of my shell and socialized. I found a lot of friends for support. I didn't want to end up in a situation where I had no support and no where to go. My friends are awesome, and I'm really glad that they were there.
This is the first time in my life I felt "normal" and that I'm finally being who I was meant to be all along.
I'd have to say that access to information has made a huge difference in peoples lives. When I was younger we didn't have the information -- and what was there wasn't right. It's a lot easier to transition now than it was years ago.
I don't think older TS people are less trans than me -- they had to suffer for a very long time with no information (or the wrong information) and little access to help and support. I also don't think that younger people are more trans than me, they just have an advantage that I didn't have when I was that age. We're all equal, no matter what our age is.
--natalie
Quote
I don't think older TS people are less trans than me -- they had to suffer for a very long time with no information (or the wrong information) and little access to help and support. I also don't think that younger people are more trans than me, they just have an advantage that I didn't have when I was that age. We're all equal, no matter what our age is.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)
https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html
tink :icon_chick:
Holy Crap! Primary explains me to a T -- it's majorly creepy! I didn't know what the two were about and never really looked into it. And then my gf and I talked about it and compared all of my TS friends. Most of my TS friends are secondary! No wonder I have a hard time relating to them half of the time. And even when I was trying to be a guy I was very effeminate -- my gf has seen video of me from a couple years ago and she says, "Yeah, I can see why people thought you were really gay!"
Although, I still stand behind that I think all TS are equal, whether they are primary and secondary. And I wonder if people can be in the grey area. I don't know. *shurgs*
But I think that one could be Primary and be older, too, because of the information stuff. And just because someone is secondary it doesn't mean that they are less of a girl. They might have a different experience than I am having, but they are doing what they can and they can be very successful women.
Posted on: September 26, 2007, 02:34:19 AM
Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM
From my other girlfriends who are TS and younger, me having a background as somebody living with a degree of androgyny is unique and unusual for transwomen. I could say even in my twenties I stuck to this to a certian degree, but it got harder and harder to maintain but also deal with. It just wasn't me. But the truth is the genderqueer background is unique amoung MtF TS (and more common with FtM). I know only one other girl who took up a queer identity, who was a very femme gay guy (radical fairy) and then transitioned to female.
I personally lived near Chicago which has a very long history of androgyny in the subculture dating back to the 70's that was different than the Bowie type. It was significantly more about questioning gender identity by the nineties though. Again I lived in a city where this was socially accepted by some people.
I had an alternative to being strictly male and gravitated towards it the minute I was given the opportunity. Not everybody had this, and I understand this. Between 14-21 I was passing as female 50% and male 50% at times, no hormones, it was just the way I was. Also I was in college in 1996, and 19 in 1997.
I grew a goatee just too look more "male" because I've always looked angronous (damn, why can't I spell that word?). Especially because I acted very effeminately as a guy, I'd get ma'med from time to time. I actually got that when I had a goatee a few times, which was interesting. LOL
Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM
The friends accepting is not universal, but it is part of the generation gap. I find keeping ones friends is common for those under 30 if they had friends before transition (many are socially isolated). Then again there is also a subcultural context. certain communities are very accepting. Goths, Punks, Emo (grumble) and Twee Kids, are well...accepting communities. I am part of the twee pop community, which is dominated by women, DIY craft fairs, and was built on the philosophy that its okay to be girly no matter who you are. Its a community where most people love Morrissey and has read his interviews on gender identity, so they are even have somewhat of an understanding. Many are the accepting third wave feminists. I could go on, but needless to say having a subcultural identity helped out with me keeping my friends. Younger trans people who have a subcultural identity tend to do pretty well in terms of keeping friends, because we sorround ourselves with understanding people.
Yay Goth community! Boo-urns emo community! LOL
I like Morrissey, too (actually, that's my last name -- I was born with it and kept my last name when I changed it legally)
I surrounded myself with a lot of friends when I transitioned. I found that it helped me a lot. I think it helps a lot of people, and the couple of younger TS people I know have done the same. Most older TS people I know do not have many friends and either hang out at home a lot or just hang out with other TS people... like me, which means I have a lot of people trying to grab my attention -- you should see my social calender. I'm not working, again, and I my schedule is so insane that it's like I work -- I'm hardly ever home sitting around! I need to find a way to make a job out of being social. Then I can pay my bills. :D
Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM
Also I refused to make friends with anybody who is republican, and that helps quite a bit.
Okay the genderqueer background probably did help, so did not really feeling right being male and not really acting like one, but I really couldn't. Its a different background, but the truth is some of us can only suppress so much of ourselves, eventually who we are comes out to a degree even when hiding. Nearly ALL of my friends picked up on this. Extremely effeminate was used regularly when talking about me.
I luckily never married, never had kids. In fact I can't imagine why anybody who is trans would. But that is my perspective, not everybody has this.
Then again...I probably fall under the primary category in some ways. I never really fit in even when I was a kid I was always a gender variant, even though I was unaware of it myself.
Totally. I didn't marry either and a lot of people picked up my effeminate nature -- I couldn't hide it no matter how hard I tried. I think I mentioned this in my early post in this thread, but one of my last girlfriends used to constantly complain about how "girly" I was and she tried to change me for a while. That relationship lasted two months-ish.
I tried to have a couple of boy friends too, but gay boys didn't like me because I was way to girly for them and they picked up on it right away. The last boyfriend I was with kept getting annoyed with me.
Now that I've transitioned things are a bit better, because I am a girl. My GF and I have been together for a year, although it has been rocky and we are on a "break" now. And then I've been with two guys, although having the wrong part has made my sexlife/relationship-life awkward and really rocky. It's a pattern that has been through my entire life. I've always felt odd having that thingy between my legs. More so when I was put into the "man" category.
Last week my gf came home (after sleeping with a guy) and said, "Natalie, you wanna know what makes you a girl?" What, I said, "You sleep like a girl! No wonder straight-girls and gay-boys didn't hang around you very long!" I thought it was funny, anyway, but pretty true. And I remember a past girl experience when the girl said sex was "different" with me but she couldn't put her finger on it, and the gay boy was very confused and said I sleep weird (and then it didn't happen again). Weirdness!
Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 02:49:26 AM
Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)
https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html
Holy Crap! Primary explains me to a T -- it's majorly creepy!
Yes, majorly creepy, although in my case it's the early-onset, loner, not-particularly-effeminate type that is uncannily close. This yet again strengthens my conviction that what I have is truly a form of GID, even though I'm pretty sure by now that I didn't end up with full-scale TS. Also, I think that latter part was largely because of the environment I grew up in.
The first I remember coming across with the concept of transsexuality was an article I saw in the mid-1970's, about the time I hit puberty. My feelings were very ambivalent: on the one hand, I seriously wanted to be able to grow up to be a woman, even with the help of surgery; on the other hand, I most definitely did not want to grow up to be a stripper in Rio de Janeiro. In the end the latter opinion won, although it was a surprisingly close call. It took over ten more years to realise that normal people could be TS too, and get it treated.
By that time it was already getting too late, as I'd started getting a life as officially male. It wasn't too hard either (except for being interested and/or brave enough to start dating); the main reason, I believe, is that my family never tried to force me to behave 'like a man', which made it easier to get into the kind of gender role I prefer. It was only recently that I figured out that hey, really, I'd started a transition from male to androgyne about a quarter century ago -- even if during that period I also became a husband and a father.
Um, oh. I hope you don't mind me posing as a MtA TS for a bit. If you do, sorry.
Nfr
Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)
https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html
Thanks for the links Tink!
I did not realize that this was such a divisive topic. And I apologize to everyone that has been around for a long time, I know this is probably gets so old, but for me (and I hope others) that are just discovering themselves it is priceless to be able to discuss. So thanks for your patience and insight!
I feel the need to respond to each one of you for your insightful comments but there is just too much. Thank you all for sharing, I've studied everyones posts and just because I don't comment doesn't mean I ignored it.
As for the article the primary describes me as well. I guess I'm early onset, late transition.
with really early transitioners, 14-18? its something i could have done, although when i was that age i was told it was illegal to have srs before 21, so assumed i wouldn't be allowed, typical idiotic teenager, rebelling against everything, and yet believing everything the doctor said as if he was the state himself.
what i will say, is that as a woman, having children is a massive concern and once you start the process of HRT your possibilities of it happening decrease until its impossible. Young transitioners can think that being ts is the only thing in the world that matters, but when they get older, and more used to being a woman, things can change and not neccesarily for the better.
when your 17, 18 your not thinking about kids, but when you start getting to your mid twenties, and all your friends are having children, their social lives start revolving around children, and suddenly you feel like you have missed out on possibly the most important thing of all, having kids. I have to say in my experience, there is nothing more feminine and female than bringing up and looking after children. So many men just cant do it, they can't tolerate it. If there really is a difference between men and women, then that has to be it, in my opinion.
if i was a late transtioner, it would be because i wanted children, more than i wanted anything else. Perhaps, like amanda for example, you never considered that you wanted to have children, and a family more than you wanted to be a woman. That would definately be something i could relate to as a woman, and would explain lots more to me about your and other older transitioners situations. A maternal instinct should not ever be ignored?
Having children is more important to me than any trans issue i ever experienced. I think alot of women feel that way about kids.
Quote from: carol_w on September 25, 2007, 05:01:06 PM
I have to echo what Elizabeth said. I first started feeling "like a girl" in the early '70's as well, and I did a lot of research on my feelings at the university level during 1971-74. Apparently, I never ran across Harry Benjamin's early research, and everything that I found during that time related TSism to sexually related behavior problems. I knew I wasn't gay, had incorrect feelings for my mom, or anything else like that. So I chose to think of myself as just kind of different, and I attempted to go on with life, stuffing the feelings as I went along. In spite of being caught crossdressing in high school (1970) I never admitted anything until I went for counseling in 1999.
Things would have been far easier had that happened today.
Carol
Actually, the first I remember verbalizing my gender issues to myself was about 1960. I first started acting on it something like 3 or 4 years before that. I talked about 1970 because that was the year I became a legal adult.
Quote from: fruity on September 26, 2007, 09:53:04 AM
there is nothing more feminine and female than bringing up and looking after children.
A lot of women, genetic and trans, wouldn't be pleased to be stereotyped like that. Women are more than baby-making machines, and many choose to NOT have children - and it sure doesn't make them less feminine or less of a woman, IMHO.
~Kate~
Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
I find that a lot of TS ppl who are older are transitioning now. Younger ppl are starting to transition now, too. I don't know if that was so true in the past, or how many people transition now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and the age range.
I think there has been another process also in play in this. The more passible you are, the more inclined you are to transition and go stealth as soon as possible. The less passible you are, the more time you spend thinking about it. So there is
some tendency for the more passible people to transition at a younger age than the less passible. Or should I say, than those who
think they are less passible.
I'm an early transitioner I believe (just after turning 18), and although I am saddened that I can never have children on my own, I do plan on adopting at some point in my life if possible.
Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
When I was a kid, my mom talked to the doctors and I also went in a few times. The idea at the time was that gender is completely social. Not an uncommon theory in the '80s.
There are still a lot of psychologists who think that way.
Having children and being there for them was a primary focus for me. I think I said in one of my posts that I'm so proud of how they turned out and they are very close. However it was never a conscious decision for me to choose children over TS because I did not even know what to think about my issues then.
I know this may set off a firestorm but I do think a women's highest calling is having AND raising children. In our case my wife gave up
her career and never worked outside of the home after our first child was born. We did not plan it that way it just seemed like the right
thing to do. Both of us were all for it, for me not in some sexist type of way, but because it was the right thing to do in my eyes. I know it's not for everyone and I know that feminists will see it as wrong but for us it felt right. I do think this is out of step with many husbands who REQUIRE they're wives to work. It was very rare for our kids to have friends with stay-at-home moms.
Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
I was very ill and -- excuse my french -- very ->-bleeped-<-ed up.
It's Dutch, not French. The word was brought to America by the pilgrims. They stopped off in Amsterdam for two years before sailing for Plymouth Rock. They are also the ones who gave it it's unusual spelling as an acronym for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge."
My how this topic has drifted from the original question.
Sarah L.
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 26, 2007, 10:50:08 AM
Having children and being there for them was a primary focus for me. I think I said in one of my posts that I'm so proud of how they turned out and they are very close.
i suspected as much amanda, i'd love to know how much of your decision was really based on that, although i guess you don't really know? The reason i did not transition until 26 was because likewise, i wanted children, and they were a primary focus for me too. There was only one way i could get them.
i traded transitioning in my teens so i could have children.. perhaps alot of older transitioners do this without even realising.
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 26, 2007, 10:50:08 AM
Having children and being there for them was a primary focus for me. I think I said in one of my posts that I'm so proud of how they turned out and they are very close. However it was never a conscious decision for me to choose children over TS because I did not even know what to think about my issues then.
I know this may set off a firestorm but I do think a women's highest calling is having AND raising children. In our case my wife gave up
her career and never worked outside of the home after our first child was born. We did not plan it that way it just seemed like the right
thing to do. Both of us were all for it, for me not in some sexist type of way, but because it was the right thing to do in my eyes. I know it's not for everyone and I know that feminists will see it as wrong but for us it felt right. I do think this is out of step with many husbands who REQUIRE they're wives to work. It was very rare for our kids to have friends with stay-at-home moms.
I guess this may sound wierd but if that is what worked in your partnership with your wife then that is great. my wife works and I stay at home with the kids mostly by my wifes choice. my wife is a shy person and not very outgoing and she rarly is able to socalize out side of a work setting because she has a hard time meeting people so working gives her the opertunity to socalize in a comfortable setting. as for me i am very outgoing so I have plenty of chance to be around others this is what works for us as while we were planning a family we decieded that it was important to us for a parent to be at home with the clildren at all times and we did not want to work seprate shifts because we enjoy spending time together which we would probably not have the chance to do if we worked oppisite shifts so this is what works for us! the feminists movement is about having the options to do what a woman chooses not being forced to work but having the freedom to do so if that is the choice made. I think all equal right is about this simple concept people wanting the freedom to be able to live thier lives inwhatever way makes them happy without being punished for it! (just my understanding of how things are if I am wrong please feel free to correct me!)
Quote from: Nichole W. on September 25, 2007, 02:32:59 PM
The most predominant area of transsexuality in my opinion and with my experience is the remarkable way in which TSes of all ages make comparisons with one another. There seems almost an "I'm better than you because..." mentality to the entire spectrum of TSes...
I always believed until 2001 that "I was maybe the only one." Althoughy I had heard of Christine Jorgenson, she was about it...
Others may have other reasons, but I would suggest that availability of services, knowledge distribution and negative life-experiences are big reasons why fewer woman and men of older years transitioned early than seems to be the case now...
Nichole
Nichole, this is well-said. I suppose I have angered some here because of my comments against this kind of stratification of the TG community. But we all have different lives and situations. If there is anyone who should not be judgmental, it is us.
Like many, I just can't fathom how different my life would have been had I known back in my early years what was going on with me. And like many others here I just thought I was crazy and perverted and disgusting because of the thoughts and feelings that would not leave. One thing I knew for sure: No one would ever discover my secret self! I was certain I could never pass. And like others, I was so very good at repressing things I just didn't want to deal with. But that only works temporarily, and truthfully, not very well at that. So now many of us find ourselves with mortgages and families we dearly love, who depend upon us and our paychecks, and very public careers where others depend on us as well. And we do still have to fight the ignorance and prejudice of people in our generation. How different things might have been had we only known what was going on all those years.
Water under the bridge I know, but it is nice to dream of a better world. Right now I'll have to settle for improving the one I have. I know that if I have anything to do with it, my children will live in a world that is more enlightened and less phobic, at least for me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: fruity on September 26, 2007, 11:04:02 AM
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 26, 2007, 10:50:08 AM
Having children and being there for them was a primary focus for me. I think I said in one of my posts that I'm so proud of how they turned out and they are very close.
i suspected as much amanda, i'd love to know how much of your decision was really based on that, although i guess you don't really know? The reason i did not transition until 26 was because likewise, i wanted children, and they were a primary focus for me too. There was only one way i could get them.
i traded transitioning in my teens so i could have children.. perhaps alot of older transitioners do this without even realising.
So you have children Danielle? I wasn't ever able......I often think about it and do get envious sometimes...
Well put Kristi.
The questions and thoughts that went through my mind when I was young (also what the school shrinks said) were very disturbing. I am so happy there is more information out there now and somewhat easier to get at.
Sarah L.
Something just struck me and I wanted to point it out.
To me looking back, age 25 is not that long ago from 40, but looking the other direction it seemed so very far into the future.
When I was mid 20's, people that were in their forties were so ancient. Putting my self back at 25 and having someone like that say they wanted to transition(had I known about this) at that age probably would have repulsed me. They are much too old I would have thought.
I just realized that I can relate to Fruity's point of view about older transitioner's now that I've put it into that perspective.
Now in my forties I can say that I don't feel or think much differently than I did at 25. Other than the normal physical aspects of aging I'm
not very different. And life has flown by for me as I suspect it has for everyone that is older here.
So for the younger girls out there, remember for you it's only a few short years away even though it seems like a long time. I think you will be very surprised at how fast you're forties get here.
Posted on: September 26, 2007, 01:16:46 PM
Jesse: my wife and I talked about me staying home and I would have been happy to do so. For us it was a financial decision more than anything. I say that's perfect if it worked for you, I'm very envious when I hear about stay-at-home dads.
Posted on: September 26, 2007, 01:19:02 PM
Fruity, do you prefer to be called Danielle?
Posted on: September 26, 2007, 01:20:11 PM
QuoteAnd like many others here I just thought I was crazy and perverted and disgusting because of the thoughts and feelings that would not leave. One thing I knew for sure: No one would ever discover my secret self!
That about sums up my early years. I managed to keep my secret self a secret pretty well.
QuoteI was certain I could never pass.
If that is your picture, you were so obviously wrong. I can only hope that if I'm able to get to your point I could look a tenth as
passable.
Quote from: Katia on September 26, 2007, 12:29:08 AM
Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
*Sighs* here we go again. I have actually promised myself not to give my POV regarding issues such as these anymore.
clever! there comes a time when questions like these don't matter anymore. one turns into the spectator & observes the typhon from a distance. ;)
Yes, that, and I also avoid the melodrama and prevent my liver from burning further. :P
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: shanetastic on September 25, 2007, 06:03:12 PM
Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Yeah, that's one of the only differences I think is the kids. Not to mention my parents pay for my therapy as well, but I pay for pretty much everything else. That's the other problem, being in college, and having no money because of cars, insurance, college, books. The older you are the more well off you are I think as well for income wise.
I wish shanetastic..I is divorced and pay child support for the next 12 years. ;D money will always be a sore spot.
Quote from: Robin_p on September 26, 2007, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: shanetastic on September 25, 2007, 06:03:12 PM
Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Yeah, that's one of the only differences I think is the kids. Not to mention my parents pay for my therapy as well, but I pay for pretty much everything else. That's the other problem, being in college, and having no money because of cars, insurance, college, books. The older you are the more well off you are I think as well for income wise.
I wish shanetastic..I is divorced and pay child support for the next 12 years. ;D money will always be a sore spot.
Ouch, I'm sorry to hear about that :( Hopefully your job is good though and you enjoy it.
Quote from: shanetastic on September 26, 2007, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: Robin_p on September 26, 2007, 09:17:23 PM
Quote from: shanetastic on September 25, 2007, 06:03:12 PM
Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)
I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.
i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.
Yeah, that's one of the only differences I think is the kids. Not to mention my parents pay for my therapy as well, but I pay for pretty much everything else. That's the other problem, being in college, and having no money because of cars, insurance, college, books. The older you are the more well off you are I think as well for income wise.
I wish shanetastic..I is divorced and pay child support for the next 12 years. ;D money will always be a sore spot.
Ouch, I'm sorry to hear about that :( Hopefully your job is good though and you enjoy it.
That's funny. The only reason that i have been paying child support for my three kids on time is because I LOVE MY JOB!!!! I is a boat mechanic. I don't make a lot of money and some of my co-worker s##ck. But when i get near water my heart sings and i am at peace with myself. Nothing like standing on a pier and watching the sun come up over the harbor!!!!!!
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 26, 2007, 01:25:54 PM
QuoteI was certain I could never pass.
If that is your picture, you were so obviously wrong. I can only hope that if I'm able to get to your point I could look a tenth as
passable.
Amanda, that is so very sweet. Thank you. And yes, all my avatar pics are me, albeit with a nice makeover done.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Wow! I just read in another topic you were not doing HRT yet, I'm stunned, :o I did not have a clue. :)
We are all equal, older Ts envy younger ones, I envy those who transitioned at 15-16 and 15-16 probably envy girls born girls. So we all are in the same boat we where all born the wrong gender and I am so amazed at the courage of those in there 40's who start transitioning. "You are the bravest and strongest amongst us"
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 01:30:54 PM
In another topic recently there was some discussion about early vs late TS's. I'm really interested in learning
more about this and I hope that everyone can use this thread to discuss the topic not snipe at each other.
I believe that some members of this forum that are early TS's believe the older TS is not really TS, if they were they would
have done everything possible to transition.
A lot of young people think that George Washington was the president during World War II but that doesn't make it a fact. The fact is transition was not a possibility for most older transitioners when they were young.
Quote from: Ember L on October 03, 2007, 09:26:43 PM
We are all equal, older Ts envy younger ones
And younger TSs envy older TSs who can afford SRS. Envy is a useless attachment, you can spend your whole life wanting this or wanting that and all it does is encourage wanting something else.
QuoteA lot of young people think that George Washington was the president during World War II but that doesn't make it a fact. The fact is transition was not a possibility for most older transitioners when they were young.
I think your definition of "a lot" is being used to refer to "one or two"
Hi, Redfish,
If you ever watch Jay Leno on the Tonight Show when he does his "Jaywalking" feature you'll see that "a lot" is really more than "one or two."
I knew that I was a girl in a boy's body in 1956 and I was sure in 1960. That was when what's-his-name was president and America had no one in space yet.
Question: how would you handle transition at that age in 1960? How did you handle it on your 9th birthday?
I graduated high school in 1969. That was around the time of the Stonewall riots. Were you alive then? Do you know what those riots were about?
I was separated from the military in 1974. I was 23. You're about 23, right? Please do the research and see what was available in psychiatry to help transsexuals in 1974. I lived in a rural area where it was no crime to beat-up on gay men or to ostracize lesbians. In America back then, what help did anyone have for transsexuality? It wasn't even documented in the literature of psychiatry.
I could go on for several more years, until the Internet became available to me. That gave me a window on the latest developments in help for those like me: transsexual and hoping.
Redfish, please take the time to dig back and see how medicine, psychiatry, and society at-large dealt with such unknown and unpopular problems as transsexuality.
I believe that we all transition at the right time. There is no early or late, only the right time.
'nuff said.
Wing Walker
Quote from: redfish on October 09, 2007, 05:58:00 AM
QuoteIf you ever watch Jay Leno on the Tonight Show when he does his "Jaywalking" feature you'll see that "a lot" is really more than "one or two."
Alright..I guess I just have an issue with people implying that my generation is inferior. And I like Conan O'Brien better!
Oh, it's not just your generation. There are plenty of ignorant people in mine, too. I liked the segment where he was asking people what we should do about North Korea while showing them a map of Austalia and none of them knew they were saying to bomb a country on the wrong continent.
Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 02:21:50 PM
Another question, what is the typical age for early transition? I'm guessing somewhere around 25?
Posted on: September 25, 2007, 02:17:30 PM
Sarah: what you say is so true.
Is it possible that most if not all late TS's would have done so a long time
ago had the proper information been available to them?
If we see a drastic reduction in late TS's starting around the year 2030 (age 15 in 2000, plus 30 years) we will have a concrete answer.
Let me say this again. Late transitioners did not have a realistic option to transition when they were young. MtF became generally available in the 70s and FtM was unheard of. If transition had been available lie it is now, I and many other late transitioners would have transitioned in their teens.
One other note, one of these days, an early transitoner will pay homage to those who blazed the transition path for others to follow and I am going to fall over in shock.
Actually knowledge about this was not as readily available even over ten years ago. Its in the last five years that you can readily get information.
Oh, that and we actually gained some rights in about a dozen or so states in the meantime, which makes a huge difference.
I was born In 1960, As a little kid I was different,I just didn't know it, I had some unusual ways for a little boy to behave. As a teen In the 70s, I had the unusual thoughts and urges to go with it. In the 80s, I had some kind of understanding about myself and tried to fight it,but it, for some strange reason kept returning. ???
Now in my late 40s, I sit here, thinking that old but true saying: "IF I KNEW THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW, things would be alot different for me".
I would have this behind me already. ::)
For the younger people transitioning now, the road is already paved. It's not that it's any easier,but there's all kinds of info available to them now which could atleast help in understanding themselves, seek help and be able to communicate with others just like them, No matter where they might be in the world. Isn't the net Beautiful? ;D
QuoteLots and lots of threats to send me off to military school.
That's actually kind of funny.
I begged to go to military school to prevent my parents from finding out and to try and be a guy.
I did too, for 2 years (Freshman and Sophomore in High School).
Quote from: Jessica on October 11, 2007, 01:21:13 PM
QuoteLots and lots of threats to send me off to military school.
That's actually kind of funny.
I begged to go to military school to prevent my parents from finding out and to try and be a guy.
I did too, for 2 years (Freshman and Sophomore in High School).
Speaking of military school... Mother leaves boot camp trial in tears (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/ap_on_re_us/boot_camp_death_7)
Quote from: Amy T. on October 11, 2007, 10:10:12 AM
Actually knowledge about this was not as readily available even over ten years ago. Its in the last five years that you can readily get information.
Oh, that and we actually gained some rights in about a dozen or so states in the meantime, which makes a huge difference.
All one needs to start transition these days is an internet connection and a credit card.
I was waiting until i had a fully established career, a spouse, kids, a beautiful house, all the toys I ever wanted just so I could give them up and end up sobbing, poor, jobless, homeless, and hated.
Its like X games for gender. I'm a thrill seeker ::)
Seriously....I was just too scared. I thought I could beat it....in the end it wins, you lose...and the older you are (I'm 39) the worse it is. Would I have done this at 20? Not a day goes by where I don't wish I knew then what I know now. Hind sight is 20/20 and while I am jealous of young transitioners, I'm happy to be getting on with my life now.
Hi Lori,
I can so relate. I have been scared to call myself female because I did not want to think I am TS. My journey has taken me to the point where I just need to relax (stop fighting myself) and see where I end up. Transistion for me may not be to far away - I am preparing for it.
Alice
Quote from: Alice on October 11, 2007, 08:52:48 PM
Hi Lori,
I can so relate. I have been scared to call myself female because I did not want to think I am TS. My journey has taken me to the point where I just need to relax (stop fighting myself) and see where I end up. Transistion for me may not be to far away - I am preparing for it.
Alice
Its about DAMN time you did something. :icon_dance: I told you a long time ago..whining, crying, and fighting it is wasting valuable time. :icon_poke: Just accept things they way they are and it will work out in the end. Acceptance is the first step. That was your major hill to get over. It was painful to see you mull it over day after miserable day. Don't you feel better already as though a weight has been lifted off of your shoulders?
Quote from: Lori on October 11, 2007, 08:59:43 PM
Quote from: Alice on October 11, 2007, 08:52:48 PM
Hi Lori,
I can so relate. I have been scared to call myself female because I did not want to think I am TS. My journey has taken me to the point where I just need to relax (stop fighting myself) and see where I end up. Transistion for me may not be to far away - I am preparing for it.
Alice
Its about DAMN time you did something. :icon_dance: I told you a long time ago..whining, crying, and fighting it is wasting valuable time. :icon_poke: Just accept things they way they are and it will work out in the end. Acceptance is the first step. That was your major hill to get over. It was painful to see you mull it over day after miserable day. Don't you feel better already as though a weight has been lifted off of your shoulders?
ROLF
A big weight has been lifted (someone else can have it) - I can tell myself all day I am female and I can now just relax and let it take hold. So easier then fighting myself all day then being tired.
Alice
Quote from: morticia on October 12, 2007, 03:19:34 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 11, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 11, 2007, 10:10:12 AM
Actually knowledge about this was not as readily available even over ten years ago. Its in the last five years that you can readily get information.
Oh, that and we actually gained some rights in about a dozen or so states in the meantime, which makes a huge difference.
All one needs to start transition these days is an internet connection and a credit card.
Yep. And even a kid can walk into any store and buy a prepaid Visa credit card, go online and in a matter of minutes find a source for offshore hormones. Had I been born say about 1995 or so, I can assure you before I turned 14 I would have found me some hormones and I would already be 90% transitioned short of surgery by the time I was 16.
Jeez it's soooo easy these days now if one really wants to. IF I could go back and do it all over again, I would do it young, not like I am now.
Yeah, but when your young you have the rest of your life ahead of you, so you better not make any mistakes, especially when it comes to hormones.
Quote from: Karla B on October 11, 2007, 10:20:48 AM
I was born In 1960, As a little kid I was different,I just didn't know it, I had some unusual ways for a little boy to behave. As a teen In the 70s, I had the unusual thoughts and urges to go with it. In the 80s, I had some kind of understanding about myself and tried to fight it,but it, for some strange reason kept returning. ???
Now in my late 40s, I sit here, thinking that old but true saying: "IF I KNEW THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW, things would be alot different for me".
I would have this behind me already. ::)
For the younger people transitioning now, the road is already paved. It's not that it's any easier,but there's all kinds of info available to them now which could atleast help in understanding themselves, seek help and be able to communicate with others just like them, No matter where they might be in the world. Isn't the net Beautiful? ;D
I'm about the same age as you Karla and although I knew how I felt from quite an early age, I didn't know what to do about it. I saw a TV programe in the 1970's about three transsexuals but it was publically fairly unheard of at that time. By the early 1980's I was quite desperate and used to take contraceptive pills, usually from girlfriends. By 1990 I was trying to access a way of getting treatment but at that time in the U.K it was still very limited and expensive. It took anther 7 years before I was on HRT.
Late transisioners like myself may not have wanted to start early and the heartache that goes with it is probably a lot worse. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have the same access that is available now and it still makes me quite unhappy that I wasn't able to transition at 18. My mind was made up back then and if I could have got on to HRT at 18 I would have. Taking the pill was all I could do and it may have helped a bit in slowing down the effect of testoterone.
...So some late transitioners were actually early transitioners but limited in resourses during the 1970's and 1980's..
Quote from: shanetastic on October 12, 2007, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: morticia on October 12, 2007, 03:19:34 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 11, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 11, 2007, 10:10:12 AM
Actually knowledge about this was not as readily available even over ten years ago. Its in the last five years that you can readily get information.
Oh, that and we actually gained some rights in about a dozen or so states in the meantime, which makes a huge difference.
All one needs to start transition these days is an internet connection and a credit card.
Yep. And even a kid can walk into any store and buy a prepaid Visa credit card, go online and in a matter of minutes find a source for offshore hormones. Had I been born say about 1995 or so, I can assure you before I turned 14 I would have found me some hormones and I would already be 90% transitioned short of surgery by the time I was 16.
Jeez it's soooo easy these days now if one really wants to. IF I could go back and do it all over again, I would do it young, not like I am now.
Yeah, but when your young you have the rest of your life ahead of you, so you better not make any mistakes, especially when it comes to hormones.
This always strikes me as such a gatekeeperish attutude, IMHO most often echoed by the much older TSs; yet they are the same people that insist they always knew from early on. If we all agree that we know early on, then why do we as a culture insist on forcing TSs through the wrong puberty before we allow them the correct hormones?
Provided that the child has followed the proper steps they should be allow access to medications, appropriate to their age, whether its drugs to block and/or full on hormones or the "correct" gender.
Quote from: Enigma on November 08, 2007, 04:26:30 PM
Quote from: shanetastic on October 12, 2007, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: morticia on October 12, 2007, 03:19:34 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 11, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 11, 2007, 10:10:12 AM
Actually knowledge about this was not as readily available even over ten years ago. Its in the last five years that you can readily get information.
Oh, that and we actually gained some rights in about a dozen or so states in the meantime, which makes a huge difference.
All one needs to start transition these days is an internet connection and a credit card.
Yep. And even a kid can walk into any store and buy a prepaid Visa credit card, go online and in a matter of minutes find a source for offshore hormones. Had I been born say about 1995 or so, I can assure you before I turned 14 I would have found me some hormones and I would already be 90% transitioned short of surgery by the time I was 16.
Jeez it's soooo easy these days now if one really wants to. IF I could go back and do it all over again, I would do it young, not like I am now.
Yeah, but when your young you have the rest of your life ahead of you, so you better not make any mistakes, especially when it comes to hormones.
This always strikes me as such a gatekeeperish attutude, IMHO most often echoed by the much older TSs; yet they are the same people that insist they always knew from early on. If we all agree that we know early on, then why do we as a culture insist on forcing TSs through the wrong puberty before we allow them the correct hormones?
Provided that the child has followed the proper steps they should be allow access to medications, appropriate to their age, whether its drugs to block and/or full on hormones or the "correct" gender.
Heh, I can't believe I freaking said that my gosh!!
Ignore that post :D I don't know what the heck I was on there.
(and i'm not a "much older ts" well at least I don't think. Maybe I was just trying to say, just make sure. Not a way of me influencing or saying that the gatekeeper approach is right. I was burden to that and I think it's ridiculous that some people just simply deny you and won't believe you because of your age.)
Similar kind of story here about the 60's and 70's, except for the military part of it. I tried to join the army when I was 18 but I was to small, I hated my size back then. I didn't start transition until I was fifty for the similar reason as Wing Walker and Lisbeth.
My first try at transitioning, unwittingly, if this can be classified as transitioning. I ran away from home when I was 16 and ended up in New York with the hippies. Because of my size and the long hair I was mistaken as a girl and I got away with it for a year and a half. I even had a boy friend. so I didn't dare tell anyone and just went along with it until a year and a half later where I had to go back home, That tore my heart out, but I knew it had to be.
Just hang in there Lisbeth hon, the journey is so well worth it. Just be the best you, you can be and just be her, embrace her for she is the most precious possession one can hope for in this world, she is the very soul of your being.
I know I'm getting on in years but these were the most precious and wonderful 7 years of my life. I had a wonderful job working with those in need, I have met my partner five years ago, she would literally has given of her self and her love to me unconditionally. I have seen much and traveled much and everywhere I have been in the US and Canada people have been cordial and I was well treated. I have been much blessed and if were to depart from this world I would go with a smile on my face.
Cindy
I tried to transition when I was 16 by rubbing my mom's estrogen cream on me. It didn't work!
I don't think this thread should exists.....and why post Early verses late. A lot of people's experiences are not gauged by time and are likely to be a case of good luck or bad luck depending on the timescale that their transition has taken. In my own case I fit into both catagories....I started young at 24 with hormones but it took much longer than I wanted it to take and I had many fights with the U.K GIC system and I'm still trying to get a referral for GRS now in my 40's..
Berleigh makes a good point. At this point in time, there is no such thing as "early and late transitioners." The word transition as it is used in this context did not even exist until fairly recently.
Hi Berleigh
This ticks me off with the British health system, "REALY TICKS ME OFF!" If you wish hon, Wing Walker and I have a place for you to come and stay with us in British Columbia. Get the SRS Done then plan what ever it is would wish to do in life. I know it is much easier once you are finally you, well it is.
Cindy