Some of you will know from my other thread that the relationship between my sister and I is strained, to say the least.
I have not messaged her since our last conversation but this morning she sent me a message saying she would not talk to me until I had read a TERF blog. After reading it I am horrified and disgusted with the content.
I am writing a rebuttal of this blog to highlight its bigotry and would like to ask for any help my trans brothers and sisters can give in logically, calmly, and utterly refuting the arguments put forward therein.
That these ideas exist at all is deeply troubling and I believe that we need to do something about them without resorting to labeling, name calling, or lazy politics... Even though there are plenty of them in this blog.
Thank you and Hugs,
Sarah
Sorry, we have a policy against allowing links to TERF material for many reasons - not least of which being it can lead them back here. I'm truly sorry though that your sister did that to you.
Thank you Grace, I was unaware. Would it be permitted for people willing to help to post in this thread so I can share the link with them?
^^hugs^^
Sarah. People spend so much energy being mean and trying to spread hate. your sister will get tired at some point. and hopefully come around and say Sorry. I know how you feel when people post that pooh language and at least half of them end up letting go of it at some point. its hard for them to keep it up ::)
this too shall pass
Quote from: Sarah82 on November 18, 2015, 04:29:47 AM
Thank you Grace, I was unaware. Would it be permitted for people willing to help to post in this thread so I can share the link with them?
The thing is that kind of stuff is highly distressing and toxic as you can understand. Why inflict it on people? Sure, if people want to PM you for that link then there's nothing stopping them, but they might feel happier just gouging their eyes out with broken glass. I presume you probably wouldn't gouge your eyes out, likewise why bother reading that stuff? I don't see that being forewarned in this instance is being forearmed, it's just distressing and depressing.
Well might it be possible for you to sum up a few things ?
Here were some scientific points:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,198800.msg1770914.html#msg1770914
Well the root of all of this is a fear.
Its like all aches... its not enough to treat the symptoms... like scientific argumentation with brought up points...
Imo those people have a deep seated fear transgender people enter into some place exclusively reserved for women.
They fail to see others as their sisters and that space can grow if it is shared.
There is no need to be exclusive.
Its like many things, and emotions... they multiply if they are shared, and talked about...
hugs
Thanks everybody.
Grace you are right, I would have rather gouged my eyes out rather than read this and I don't really think anyone else should read it either.
I made my earlier post in haste and full of emotion and indignation. I won't be sharing the link as I don't want it to poison anyone else's mind. I just wish I could unread it.
Hugs,
Sarah
Quote from: Sarah82 on November 18, 2015, 04:58:38 AM
Thanks everybody.
Grace you are right, I would have rather gouged my eyes out rather than read this and I don't really think anyone else should read it either.
I made my earlier post in haste and full of emotion and indignation. I won't be sharing the link as I don't want it to poison anyone else's mind. I just wish I could unread it.
Hugs,
Sarah
Well the point is with reading people pick up the emotions behind it... its a peculiar thing but its real...
thats why simply stating facts might help...
and realizing those people have a fear, which might be adressed...
don't let them poison you... you know what is right, and keeping to a sane level and arguing with reason and love might help...
its really people fearing something...
so keeping an emotional distance might help...
hugs
Terfs do not believe in facts, science or logic. It would be far more productive for you to go watch a cat playing a piano on youtube.
It's unfortunate that your sister is sending you the message that she pretty much thinks the worst things possible. There is no refuting prejudice, the information is readily available for everyone to look up, and find out, and study. The article begins by question beginning a conclusion, by suggesting a prejudice, or preconceived opinion and perception is fact, and then proceeds to engage in confirmation bias, looking for any and all information that supports the prejudice, while delegitimizing, and ignoring information that contradicts the prejudice.
The fact that your sister gravitated to, and sifted through all of the information, and links that she came upon, until she found something like that, betrays her own need to confirm prejudice.
I'm not immune to aversion, and hate speech, I do find that highly distressing. What I read of it, began with a prejudice (have a gut reaction to these photos, and then agree that questioning that prejudice in anyway is ridiculous... moving on), then dismissed opposition as either weak minded, soft hearted, or in an evil conspiracy. Suggested that ->-bleeped-<- is an attack on women, and then named some names of purported transwomen that said things they believed and approved of, and therefore are the only honest, and truthful ones (their credibility presumably founded upon saying things I agree with).
The problem is that they're far more wrong here than merely a difference of opinion, or an ignorance to obscure facts, or something -- there is a heated antagonism, that is alarming, and distressing, and this is the cause of the opposition.
You can't reason with unreasonable people. For TERFs, woman=uterus. Fear not, the science is there where someday we would have our own uteri or other reproductive options. I would gladly grab the popcorn to watch when their heads explode.
I am sorry this happened to you. I know the problem as my oldest sister is a ardent supporter of the TERF ideology. We have not talked in over a year.
As much as it hurts and I miss her, this is better.
Hugs
Jen
read the philosophy of Greer and you will understand TERF. Sorry to say I think your sister has gone beyond the point o no return in trying to understand you.
Thanks everyone for your words of support and encouragement.
My sister has read Greer and I think that is part of the problem, ugh why couldn't that kind of thinking stay in the 70's.
From the blog she had me read she obviously fears that all transpeople are sexual deviants, rapists, pedophiles, or other criminals and uses sensationalised news articles and snippets of social media posts as proof, completely ignoring that an even greater amount of "evidence" exists that if used, in the same disgusting manner, can paint all ciswomen as exactly what they are saying about us.
There is also lots of talk about the sexual dimorphism of the human race and then defining gender as a distinction between ova and sperm producers. A theory that ignores the existence of intersexed people, the 10% of women unable to produce ova, and the 15% of men unable to produce sperm and let's not even mention the possibility of the researchers turning ovaries into testes and vice versa.
The author of the blog is so cowardly as to not even put their name on this hate, as if they were secretly ashamed of it, nor will they answer any of my requests for discussion and debate of their content.
Every transperson who starts transitioning is braver than the cowards who will hide behind anonymity in order to slander us.
These recent events have convinced me that I cannot stay silent and transition in private. I will speak against any who seek to slander and discriminate against us but I will not resort to the labeling, name-calling, and hate of our detractors for they are our brothers and sisters in humanity.
Ignorance should be countered with information.
Hate should be countered with love.
Fear should be countered with reassurance and understanding.
Bigotry should be countered with rational argument.
But then again I am an idealist, egalitarian, and libertarian(in the original meaning).
Hugs to you all and thanks again,
Sarah
P.s. sorry about getting on my soapbox at the end there.
Oh dear.
Now I feel icky for looking up what TERF means.
Quote from: Serenation on November 18, 2015, 05:12:50 AM
It would be far more productive for you to go watch a cat playing a piano on youtube.
I only know the cute ones where they play with cardboard :)
hugs
Quote from: KarinMcD on November 20, 2015, 04:12:04 PM
Oh dear.
Now I feel icky for looking up what TERF means.
This is why we discourage discussion of it on the forum. Seriously, things are tough enough without adding those haters to the mix.
Sarah82 my heart cries for you. My older sister is my confidant and puts up with my lengthy emails. It kills me to hear about your situation - so sorry.
One thing you said I think should be repeated - I totally agree 100%:
QuoteThese recent events have convinced me that I cannot stay silent and transition in private. I will speak against any who seek to slander and discriminate against us but I will not resort to the labeling, name-calling, and hate of our detractors for they are our brothers and sisters in humanity.
Ignorance should be countered with information.
Hate should be countered with love.
Fear should be countered with reassurance and understanding.
Bigotry should be countered with rational argument.
I totally agree with you. I've came to a conclusion the other day to be proud of myself and if others take offense, sorry for them and have a nice day. Most people are genuinely interested and have a million questions they would like to ask. If "we" get to people and educate them before "they" get to them there is a pretty good chance (I think) the total bigotry will come out.
I had a 30 minute conversation with the person at the wig shop about why I was buying a wig and it went from there. She now understands some of the issues/challenges/reasons we transition and I can pretty much guarantee she would scoff at the hate propaganda.
Be confident, be pleasant, and have a Positive Mental Attitude and the world will smile back.
Thanks PJ and everyone,
I was regretting having started this thread, I did so full of emotion and self-righteous indignation.
Now that I have calmed (slightly) I would like to apologise, I didn't think of other people who might read this or consider their feelings or how this could effect them.
"I'm sorry if this has caused you any pain or anguish, I was inconsiderate and angry, I'm sorry."
That being said I appreciate the words of encouragement I have received, in the last few days I have been full time (I can't keep it up though, I'll run out of clothes soon) And in that time I have received such touching support from my community. Although I have also had disgusted glances and people talking behind my back, one even said to my Nana "Doesn't that hurt you?", I meet every evil look with a smile, and it's amazing how many smile back out of reflex, and every harsh word with confidence and understanding of their fear and misplaced hate.
It has only been a couple of days though so we shall see what the future brings.
Hugs,
Sarah
P.s. after reading the blog and trying to contact my sister she told me that she is "Not ready to discuss this". She wouldn't even answer the question "Why tell me to read that hate before contacting you if you weren't ready to defend or discuss it?"
But I'm considering sending a big box wrapped up as a Christmas present from <deadname>, filled with torn up news paper and a note saying "Mommy won't let me send you Christmas presents because my life offends her politics. Love Sarah." But that is just a revenge fantasy and would do more harm than good.
Quote from: Sarah82 on November 21, 2015, 05:08:53 PM
P.s. after reading the blog and trying to contact my sister she told me that she is "Not ready to discuss this". She wouldn't even answer the question "Why tell me to read that hate before contacting you if you weren't ready to defend or discuss it?"
But I'm considering sending a big box wrapped up as a Christmas present from <deadname>, filled with torn up news paper and a note saying "Mommy won't let me send you Christmas presents because my life offends her politics. Love Sarah." But that is just a revenge fantasy and would do more harm than good.
Well you might play along nicely...
sometimes love and persistency can melt a heart...
hugs
I'm glad you posted, actually. I had no idea what TERF was prior to this, and having looked it up, I see that this is where my mom is getting her misinformation. :( But, she too is "not ready to discuss it". Basically she just wants to take every opportunity to spew that filth at me, but doesn't want to hear any thing that contradicts her opinions.
Hang in there.
Thomas
Thanks Thomas,
I do hope that your mother changes her views. I probably have it easier because the rest of my family are supportive even my Dad.
He has always made off colour/bigoted remarks about everyone, and I do mean everyone, but when I started dating a Chinese girl he had no issues and got on well with her, same when I started dating a South African girl, when I told him I was bi and when I told him I was trans. Everytime his ideas have been challenged he has assessed, adapted, and accepted far sooner than anyone gave him credit for. Having lived with someone like this has made understand intractably ridged people difficult.
His acceptance gives me hope for others and keeps me going when things get tough.
I hope there is someone like this in every transperson's life.
Hugs,
Sarah
Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on November 22, 2015, 04:06:36 AM
I'm glad you posted, actually. I had no idea what TERF was prior to this, and having looked it up, I see that this is where my mom is getting her misinformation. :( But, she too is "not ready to discuss it". Basically she just wants to take every opportunity to spew that filth at me, but doesn't want to hear any thing that contradicts her opinions.
Hang in there.
Thomas
Its an emotional thing.
They are angry / frustrated...
maybe talking about it helps...
its like a knot inside of them...
if told that there are substances known to cause ->-bleeped-<- and its biological and nobodys fault it might help...
repeating it over and over, like a broken record...
hugs
I had to look it up too. I was aware the group existed, just didn't know that was the term for it.
It is a real shame that there are groups like this out there. As if it isn't hard enough being a woman anyway we also have to fight people who we should be on the same side as.
I'm sorry your sister sent you down this particular rabbit hole. I really hope you can get through to her and bring her round to a logical way of thinking.