The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse
Cat G
11/17/2105
https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73
In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 18, 2015, 09:31:54 AM
The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse
Cat G
11/17/2105
https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73
In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.
I read the blog linked from the article and it seems that as a non-intersex person I am only allowed to listen.
"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "
Well if the data showing structural brain difference between trans and non trans is true then all trans are intersex. Also, unless one does a genetic map how can one know their DNA? Seems to needlessly distinguish. How does one know they aren't intersex vs intersex?
So if I am understanding right, should I say 'bodies come in all different types black, white, intersex, cis, trans, tall and short'; then, I because I am holding up several groups to a spotlight there that I don't belong to, indeed it is arguably impossible to belong to all of them, then I am being offensive to all those groups I don't belong to?
I am not sure I understand. I have to agree that trans identities shouldn't need validation, but in any conversation about gender, it is a common position of the average person, that one's body determines gender in a binary way. In my mind I see intersex conditions as being a piece of evidence to the contrary, but I shouldn't point that out? Or am I wrong completely?
What if I am intersex and someone says argues that gender is male/female based on anatomy? Can I as an intersex person, point to intersex conditions as evidence that this is not the case? If so, surely an idea's validity is independent of its source?
I am not arguing against the position, but I do have a good few questions about it.
I'm not buying it. A few years ago there was a bit of buzz about "TS/IS Liberation", a movement that was ostensibly initiated to separate TS and IS folks from the greater LGBTQ community due to alleged transphobia from gay and lesbian people. It was as vile and divisive as any redneck political dumbassery you can imagine. After about a year or two, the founder of the website repented, apologized for the hate she had fomented, and shuttered her website.
I am unaware of this business about "constantly calling out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity". I'm not saying it happens, but where? When? I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm fairly well plugged-in with trans folks in my real life community and online, and I have NEVER seen this happen.
Could be that the issues are personal and not a product of the cultures represented.
Quote from: bmapwv on November 18, 2015, 09:49:39 AM
I read the blog linked from the article and it seems that as a non-intersex person I am only allowed to listen.
"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "
It also seems as if some people want to keep it that way. Sad. They have an opportunity to open up dialogue and they shut people down. I have no sympathy for troublemaking crybabies.
To my way of thinking, everyone is equal here.
if not in reality than I may as well turn in my Susan's card
Everyone is a little different from some one else and deserves to be treated well.
Although not a Christian but a Deist(belief in a God) I like the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you want others to treat you.
just another debate under the umbrella to cause trouble. Wouldn't it be funny if future scientists discovered a group of genes at the root of all gender and sexual variations , just different positioning of the same genes like differences in hair color. Red heads need to be excluded from associating with blonds.
I don't find this all that surprising.
I don't think there's always an appreciation among dyadic trans people for how different the issues are that intersex people have to deal with. I won't claim to be an expert, as I am dyadic myself (AFAIK), but just reading up on it makes it clear that it's very different.
As the article mentions, there's a tendency to dredge up "intersex" as an example when people (trans or not) want to dispute the usual XX/XY mythology, and then forget it. (E.g., using XX / XY to indicate "biological" female/male.) It happens here at Susan's.
One glaring example of insensitivity to intersex people is the meme that transgenderness is an intersex condition: even though I'm not intersex, I can see how actual intersex people would find it insulting and invalidating.
BTW, I can understand why a blog intended for discussion among intersex people might write:
Quote
"10. Can I ask a question if I'm not intersex?
It's against our rules, and we recommend that you don't. We will most likely delete your ask, no matter how sincere the question. "
It's pretty common for spaces on the web that are intended for people who are knowledgeable about issue X to be invaded by people who have no clue and expect the regulars to give them a free education, to the point of making it impossible for the regulars to actually have the discussions they came there to have. When those who invade are higher up on some axis of privilege, they get downright insulted when they are asked to educate themselves elsewhere.
Quote from: Asche on November 18, 2015, 12:58:33 PM
I don't find this all that surprising.
Neither do I, but it is the sort of thing that drives me away from "The Community" and into "cis-life". I blend in well enough that I do not need the trans community in my life, but I like to offer support to those coming along behind me.
This sort of thing pushes me away from trying understand things like non-binary and intersex and stuff like that. If I cannot ask questions to try and gain an understanding then I may as well stay in my "dyad" world and ignore the stuff I cannot figure out.
Personal opinion only. The problem with all these groups is that they establish a mythology and then people who challenge that mythology are rejected or have their credentials constantly questioned.
For example as it happens I can medically prove that I carry the genetic markers for partial androgen insensitivity, however as I came to that diagnosis rather later in life as the result of a private set of genetic sequencing carried out decades after I had transitioned and had GCS, I am somewhat a fraud because I grew up with the belief that such differences as I had were just natural variations, and I identified as someone who had an intense desire to be the opposite gender to that to which I had been originally assigned - hence technically trans.
My problem, as I have got older, and learned more of myself, is that I dont truly belong to either group! Indeed I find both groups both puzzling and irritating at times... So I kind of accept that I'm in a category of... well I would have said one until I met my Susan - and now I would say two because we are incredibly similar. However niether of us entirely fits with the standard narative, although for slightly different reasons.
My point is that its a very dangerous road when anyone sets out on the road of judging who is and isnt "genuine" etc and thats one of the nice things about Susans offering welcome to all. I've been thrown out of lesbian groups for being too obviously straight, Trans groups for being too obviously intersex, intersex groups for being too obviously trans, etc etc...
FWIW I self identify as a mostly lesbian female with a trans & intersex past and I can prove all of those elements - but it starts to get rather silly when you find yourself being judged on the internet by someone who in all probablility is far more fake than you will ever be, so my conclusion is that as soon as any group starts restricting who can contribute I label that group as probably full of fakes and flakes, inward looking, self-serving and most likely worth avoiding or ignoring.
Its a personal opinion only of course, and I dare say they might think the same thing of me, which is fine because the world is surely big enough to live and let live.
The more I read the article the less I like it.
It draws some arbitrary distinction between trans and intersex people.
Trans people are intersex.
There are more than two options and pointing it out isn't throwing anyone under the bus.
Whether you condition is body and brain or not isn't relevant.
Intersex support group I'm in posted this, I really dislike the word dyadic, I think it's dismissive to gender fluid and non binary trans people. This whole article annoys me.
Frustrates me, we all just want by accepted in society to live in peace as ourselves yet some of us can't even accept each other.
Quote from: Oliviah on November 18, 2015, 04:17:42 PM
The more I read the article the less I like it.
It draws some arbitrary distinction between trans and intersex people.
Trans people are intersex.
There are more than two options and pointing it out isn't throwing anyone under the bus.
Whether you condition is body and brain or not isn't relevant.
I disagree. Regardless of what the article says (I'm not going to bother to read it), being intersex is it's own condition. It's a group of actual medical conditions, separate from gender dysphoria, and should be treated as such. To say 'Trans people are intersex' does no good for either group. If this is a common misconception then it doesn't help intersex people who may have their own medical needs that should be addressed, and then have that mixed up with transgender issues. Not all intersex people are transgendered, and they shouldn't have to have misinformed people confuse the two things.
:police:
A moot point. I have been involved in this debate at a political level.
Many (?) intersex groups are fiercely protective of the gains they have made and struggle to have those gains possibly diluted by transgender people looking for political support.
As ever it comes down to power, the root of which is money and financial support.
The definition of intersex used by intersex groups is quite specific, and that is what they adhere too.
That a high percentage of intersex people are transgender is a confounding issue. That some transgender groups/people wish to include the 'transgender brain' as 'proof' of an intersex condition is contrary to the the definitions of intersex groups.
However as far as this site is concerned it is irrelevant.
Everyone is welcome and accepted here, we are inclusive. If anyone of any identity has a problem with that, then they are not welcome.
And I shall enforce that rule.
If there is any argument on this I shall lock this thread and act accordingly.
Cindy
Forum Admin.
Thank you, Cindy. I was getting a little uncomfortable with how this was going.
Quote from: Cindy on November 19, 2015, 01:51:17 AM
Everyone is welcome and accepted here, we are inclusive. If anyone of any identity has a problem with that, then they are not welcome.
As someone who is most decidedly
not a moderator or admin, may I add an additional plea, anyway?
Can those of us who are not intersex try to be sensitive to the concerns of those who are? We transgender people ask cis people to be sensitive to our concerns and respect our understanding of who we are, even when it doesn't make sense to them. Can we extend the same courtesy (or maybe it's decency?) to intersex people? (Ditto for other groups here.)
(IMHO, being understanding of other people's perspectives and feelings, and being respectful when we can't understand, is the best way to heal rifts. But it's possible I don't know what I'm talking about.)
Quote from: Asche on November 19, 2015, 05:07:38 AM
Thank you, Cindy. I was getting a little uncomfortable with how this was going.
As someone who is most decidedly not a moderator or admin, may I add an additional plea, anyway?
Can those of us who are not intersex try to be sensitive to the concerns of those who are? We transgender people ask cis people to be sensitive to our concerns and respect our understanding of who we are, even when it doesn't make sense to them. Can we extend the same courtesy (or maybe it's decency?) to intersex people? (Ditto for other groups here.)
(IMHO, being understanding of other people's perspectives and feelings, and being respectful when we can't understand, is the best way to heal rifts. But it's possible I don't know what I'm talking about.)
I am very willing to show all people love and acceptance. I just don't know what is being requested other than to stop using the inter sex condition at evidence of being born physically non binary. I don't know if that includes genetic anomaly that doesn't include genitalia anomaly.
I have a genetic anomaly. I am transsexual. I am quite sure my brain is female. Am I inter sex?
I do understand the point that many trans say they are inter sex as a way to point to an excuse or reason they are trans. This is often done to soften the blow of coming out. Used to be people would fake accidents and say the car crash caused it or stuff like that.
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 18, 2015, 09:31:54 AM
The Rift Between Us — Intersex and Trans Discourse
Cat G
11/17/2105
https://medium.com/@catherinegraffam/the-rift-between-us-intersex-and-trans-discourse-62dee7f7a73
In the past year I have noticed a mounding frustration among intersex groups towards dyadic trans people (dyadic means non-intersex). On the blog actuallyintersex, which is moderated entirely by trans identified intersex people (myself included), we have constantly called out the trans community for blatantly disregarding our humanity. One of the main issues we have is that dyadic trans folks constantly use intersex people as leverage for their defenses on gender.
I've noticed that the intersex condition is normally brought up by cispeople who are debunking the concept of a concrete gender binary. It is not used by "dyadic" transgender people for any other reason in my experience.
- Most people believe that gender is binary.
- Intersex conditions (along with several other conditions) destroy that assumption.
- Intersex conditions are therefore reasonably brought up to combat ignorance regarding the false assumption.
It is simple to me. For me and many others, it is especially frustrating if you are unable to even know. Hypospadias is now classified as an intersex condition and many transwomen were born with it unaware. I am currently in the process of trying to track down my birth records after hearing some strange stories about my early childhood regarding this. If the hospital shredded them (which this one does after 10 years of no contact) like they are suggesting may have happened, I will never know the truth. Where does that leave people like us?
Intersex conditions usually trip up the 'you're born XX or born XY you can't change!" arguments... are intersex people not as offended by that attitude as transpeople are? Are there not people who would say you shouldn't change your gender - unless you're born intersex, which still removes the element of personal identification. Being compelled to pick a side is pretty much rubbish for everyone.
I feel like the two may not be necessarily medically linked but they are linked in people's attitudes towards them - even people that accept that intersex isn't a choice might not be comfortable with someone who is intersex and IDs as agender.
So tired of having every aspect of my life subdivided now I'm dyadic too? Guess I am just naive but I tend not to see see things with an us against them attitude.
Quote from: Oliviah on November 19, 2015, 09:42:14 AM
I am very willing to show all people love and acceptance. I just don't know what is being requested other than to stop using the inter sex condition at evidence of being born physically non binary. I don't know if that includes genetic anomaly that doesn't include genitalia anomaly.
I have a genetic anomaly. I am transsexual. I am quite sure my brain is female. Am I inter sex?
I do understand the point that many trans say they are inter sex as a way to point to an excuse or reason they are trans. This is often done to soften the blow of coming out. Used to be people would fake accidents and say the car crash caused it or stuff like that.
Hi Oliviah there is a list here of intersex conditions https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexuality (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexuality) as recognised by North America.
If you think you have an intersex condition it's something you need to speak with your doctor about.
If you look at the biology of how sexual development occurs, both intersex and transgender have the same underlying cause: abnormal hormone levels during part (or all) of your prenatal development (or, with AIS, normal hormone levels but an inability to respond to those hormones).
There's this deeply ingrained belief amongst the general populace (and even most doctors it seems), that your sex is determined by whether you have a Y chromosome or not. However, that's not how it actually works at all. All the Y chromosome does is, during a critical window from about 6 to 8 weeks after conception, cause your undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles. Once your testicles form, they promptly start churning out testosterone, and the testosterone (and DHT, a hormone that's made from testosterone) causes you to develop as male. It's the testicular hormones that cause you to develop as male though and not the Y chromosome, and without those hormones (or, in AIS, if the body can't respond to male hormones), then you develop as female instead. This is demonstrated very well by the condition Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, in which genetically male people develop as female.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuXL-3eoB-o
A similar thing happens in Swyer's syndrome, in which the testicles fail to develop for whatever reason, in otherwise genetically male people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9OKI8spk0
In both cases, the male hormones testosterone and DHT completely fail to act throughout prenatal development. The result is you end up with a person who is infertile, but otherwise to all intents and purposes a woman, despite having a Y chromosome and being genetically male. This shows that the sex you develop as is entirely determined by what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development is taking place, not by whether you have a Y chromosome or not.
If anything happens to disrupt your hormone production during that critical time, it's easy to end up in a situation where some of your development has occurred as male and some as female, and that's how both intersex and transgender can arise. With intersex, the hormone disruption has occurred during the first trimester (which is the critical time for genital development), whereas with transgender, it's occurred during the second and/or third trimester (by which time genital development has finished, and the main thing still ongoing is brain development). There's a fair bit of overlap between the two though. For instance, most of the XXY people I've chatted to are quite genderfluid, and Caroline Cossey is one well known example of an (XXXY in her case) intersex person who's also transgender. A lot of transgender people who were exposed to DES also have intersex-related genital abnormalities, so there's definitely an overlap between the two in that situation as well. There's also plenty of animal research showing that exposure to external hormones early in prenatal development affects genital development, whereas later in the pregnancy it causes cross-sexed brain development.
I think probably the main reason why there's so much mystique about the whole thing, is because doctors and the pharma industry don't want to admit that most of us have ended up the way we are through their reckless use of hormones in pregnant woman!
WARNING: RANT AHEAD
Can we lay off with the conflation of "transgender" with "intersex"?
As Cindy has already pointed out (and she is AFAIK more of an expert than any of the rest of us), "intersex" refers to a particular well-defined set (category?) of conditions, and what we think of as "transgender-ness" isn't one of them. To claim that being trangender is an intersex condition is rather like me claiming that, because I'm a "native" of "America" (i.e., born in North America), I am therefore a "Native American" even though AFAIK all of my ancestors came from Europe after 1492. No. It doesn't work like that, and claiming it did would be insulting and invalidating to actual Native Americans, who get saddled with enough dreck as it is for being NA.
(And, yes, some of us are both transgender and intersex. Most of us here are not.)
But I have a second rant:
I'm tired of all the memes about what "caused" our transgender "condition." People who are red-haired or a little on the short side or like red hot chili peppers don't feel the need to explain or excuse their "condition;" they get away with saying, "well, I guess that's just how I was made."
Well, I'm transgender, and that's just how I was made, and that's the end of it. I don't know what "caused" it and I don't need to know -- I mean, what difference does it make whether it's genetics or hormones or my mother being kidnapped by space aliens? It won't change who I am.
And who I am is just fine. There's nothing wrong with me; it's the people who can't deal with it that have something wrong with them.
My being transgender is not a "condition" or a "disorder" or an "anomaly" or a "disability." The only reason my being transgender is a problem at all is because all my life society has insisted that "something is wrong with you" and tried to beat it out of me. Talking about being transgender as if it were a disorder implies that it's something to be "cured" or "prevented," when it is actually a normal variation that's been around forever and IMHO, like genetic diversity (or green vegetables), actually makes society healthier. (Cue sound bites of right-wing politicians calling green vegetables a "bigger threat to humanity than nuclear war.") I don't need to be "cured" of anything except the damage inflicted on me in childhood by the supposedly well-meaning adults around me beating me into a shape that fits the Boy Standard. (The original Boy Standard is, of course, kept in a vault in Paris, like the standard meter or the standard gram.)
Trying to explain or excuse our being transgender is just letting the transphobes choose how we're allowed to discuss things. To that I say: pbbbt!
Quote from: Asche on November 21, 2015, 06:07:12 AM
WARNING: RANT AHEAD
Can we lay off with the conflation of "transgender" with "intersex"?
As Cindy has already pointed out (and she is AFAIK more of an expert than any of the rest of us), "intersex" refers to a particular well-defined set (category?) of conditions, and what we think of as "transgender-ness" isn't one of them. To claim that being trangender is an intersex condition is rather like me claiming that, because I'm a "native" of "America" (i.e., born in North America), I am therefore a "Native American" even though AFAIK all of my ancestors came from Europe after 1492. No. It doesn't work like that, and claiming it did would be insulting and invalidating to actual Native Americans, who get saddled with enough dreck as it is for being NA.
(And, yes, some of us are both transgender and intersex. Most of us here are not.)
But I have a second rant:
I'm tired of all the memes about what "caused" our transgender "condition." People who are red-haired or a little
[...]
Trying to explain or excuse our being transgender is just letting the transphobes choose how we're allowed to discuss things. To that I say: pbbbt!
(cut for length)
I've gotta say that I agree with everything you said - I don't personally feel the need to justify being trans by also being somehow intersex, but I understand completely why people do so. It's difficult when other people see being transgender as a political choice, and therefore up for debate. If there is a genetic cause it's harder for us to be brushed off as kinks and freaks, and the general populace is generally aware of intersex. 'It's just how i was made' is easier to reject and justify discrimination. They can't claim that genetic conditions don't exist; you can't say that Deaf person is just not trying or that an albino is just looking for attention. If transgender doesn't have a biological cause, what is it? Is it a personal choice? It doesn't feel like one. It is a shame we have to ask that question though - but blaming ourselves for reacting to a hostile society by trying to simply medically explain us isn't really progress.
I don't like the idea of finding a 'gay gene' either - that just looks to me like a doorway for eugenics to make a comeback, same as if there was a 'transgender gene'. The only upside is that it would shut up people who consider sexuality and gender a lifestyle choice. In an ideal world transgender and intersex wouldn't be conflated because people would be as accepting of both but until society moves on they probably will continue to be. :/