A colleague of mine on my team had this habit of appending "man" when talking to people.
However I notice that he only says it when talking to men.
And me.
So I called him on it politely today.
"Hi <name> I wanted to tell you this in person but I have been meaning to tell you for a while and I have to leave now so I'll say it here.
Please do not call me "man" in casual conversation.
I know you mean no harm but nobody else really does that and it makes me uncomfortable. Thanks."
This was over IM because we run around all day and I was getting ready to leave.
When he came back he said he never said that to me even though he said it on the phone 10 minutes earlier.
He didn't say whether he would comply with my request but I assume he will because HR can get involved very quickly and their policy and local law is to respect gender identity and expression.
Am I being too sensitive about it?
I'm just fed up of hearing it for one and the other problem for me is that he was not saying that to any other women. Ever. He claims to be supportive but you know people say things so they wouldn't get in trouble.
Thoughts and feedback welcome.
I don't like that either and I'm glad you told him to stop.
One time i had someone say that to me and i responded in the conversation with " sure...thing lady" or something like that. He looked at my puzzled and i replied, how do you like it? His response was that i was being too sensitive and that it is just a way of talking. It was not an argument but i could tell he wanted a lighthearted debate about it and i did not. Still, in future interactions with him i do not think i heard man again.
Having said that, i hear younger women address their peers with "dude". So who knows.
Ugh. A friend of mine calls everybody "man" and "dude" and "bro" incessantly. She's a progressive feminist, and she started doing it ironically a couple of years ago. But now it's just a part of her rhythm of speech, regardless of who she's talking to (including my cisfemale wife). Drives me up the wall. I don't really mind being referred to as male most of the time, but she's getting on my nerves with it.
I always hear hey man or hey guys ( when m with mi bf) I usually let it go. When its a continuous problem then I speak to them onnit very directly (an M also glad ye spoke up). When someone in public calls mi sir I politely say M a woman sir thanks, they appologise an I move on.
Kudos to you! You would think the guy would have learned somewhere along the line how to put a sentence together properly. Inserting the word "man" at the end of every sentence is not only annoying but makes him sound ignorant. By the way.......Happy Thanksgiving!
I have friends both male and female who use dude,man and bro when talking to women.It's just a way of talking though.
In some slangs, ''man'' is used as a replacement for ''damn''. So I guess it could be Ok in that context.
I'd make it into a joke... man, dude, and bro went out with the Mullet... lol. There's so many smart allic comments to make him rethink his vocabulary.
But I'd say bottom line would be No, never ok... and you were right to speak up.
I guess what is key for me is that I've never heard him use "man" with any other woman. That us the whole reason I called him on it.
My boss uses guys but that's fine in plural. I already told him early on don't call me "guy."
One of the cafeteria cashiers referred to me as "he" in the third person and I asked him why he did that and he apologized. He knows me pre transition. Since that it's "she" and "her" and "hers" now.
Sometimes I think people are testing the waters. I try not to be mean about it but I stand my ground. This only happened with people who knew me before so I'm pretty sure I'm not being clocked, just misgendered under the cloak of familiarity.
Quote from: vickym on November 25, 2015, 02:11:35 PM
I have friends both male and female who use dude,man and bro when talking to women.It's just a way of talking though.
I wouldn't mind if it was all women. But so far it's just me.
Well iKate, though a lot of us ar very sensitive , myself included at tymes, an were on na lookout in a way fer it sometimes mabi, I think ye handled it very well. I also think having read several of yer posts ye got a pretty good outlook on things. Never waste yer tyme dwelling on woe unless theres a solution or wisdom to bi found. Or just bitchin up a storm of course lol. Either way Kate, I like how ye handled it, Confront na issue then give it no further argument. Its better to diffuse a situation than fight it.
I think it's good that you called him on it, because he uses it *only* for men (and you). I'm in New England, and we use "guys" for everyone, male and female. :) So that doesn't bug me when it happens, because it's invariably someone who also says it to cis women all the time.
People are right when they say that markers like "bro," "man," and "dude" are often used for anybody, regardless of gender. If you are completely 100% certain he has never used that word on *any* women before then you absolutely have the right to be upset.
However there is always the question of are you sure he hasn't used it on other women? As opposed to him having used it on women but you weren't around to hear it? I was just like you in that I was very upset when a colleague called me "man" because I hadn't heard him use it on any other female before. I didn't say anything, didn't show emotions, and let it go, but still felt animosity towards said colleague for weeks, until I finally heard him use "man" on some other female colleagues a while later.
tough call on that one.
I think i was much more sensitive to it when I came out but nowadays I have found myself even using it....not even referring to someone but just as an adverb or expression. At some point, you start to realize that most people don't mean any harm with things like 'man' and 'you guys'. But again, its hard when first coming out and you're just waiting and clinging to every 'ma'am' and 'she' and 'her' that happens in reference to you
Dude, man, bro, buddy, even hey guys. I HATE all of them.
Quote from: Roni on November 25, 2015, 11:05:16 PM
People are right when they say that markers like "bro," "man," and "dude" are often used for anybody, regardless of gender. If you are completely 100% certain he has never used that word on *any* women before then you absolutely have the right to be upset.
However there is always the question of are you sure he hasn't used it on other women? As opposed to him having used it on women but you weren't around to hear it? I was just like you in that I was very upset when a colleague called me "man" because I hadn't heard him use it on any other female before. I didn't say anything, didn't show emotions, and let it go, but still felt animosity towards said colleague for weeks, until I finally heard him use "man" on some other female colleagues a while later.
Well I have seen how he interacts with other women and it's different with how he interacts with me. He's friendlier and more gentle with them. That's fine, I don't want him to be forced to do that with me. But the "man" thing I feel uncomfortable with. As I've said I've never heard him say it with other women.
My boss says "guys" and that's fine because he says that to everyone.
The point is I don't want to be treated differently because I'm a woman that once used to present as a guy. I'm not asking for special treatment just equal treatment. I'm not even asking for fully equal treatment either although I should. I just don't want to be called "man" when other women aren't.
And I chose to deal with it internally rather than going to HR (which I could have).
I use dude, bro, man, guy, bud etc, etc, etc with everyone, regardless of gender. If I knew I was speaking to a trans woman, I'd hold off, though, out of fear of triggering her dysphoria. Of course, if someone (cis or trans) asked me to stop I would without hesitation, but unless I had some inkling that it would be specifically upsetting to any given woman, it would be a large, default part of my vocabulary.
I use man, bro, dude, "hey guys" many times and gender doesn't really matter. ::) I use it much in the comment sections at Internet, when I'm angry and when I having a very boyish dialogue with somebody. If anybody doesn't like it, I respect that. But I think it's alright to use it about all the genders. For me their all neutral words.
The bottom line is that it made you feel uncomfortable, so good on you for letting him know that.
I have heard cis girls say to guys, don't call me man, dude or another English one, mate. I think that its not meant in a derogatory way, but it's still fine to call them on it.
It all depends on the intent. I'm the only transwoman in an all-female club and I hear it all the time amongst them. "Man", "Guys", "Dude"... all of them. It's fine, it's normal.
"Bro" crosses the line for sure.
When it's colloquially accepted to call a group of women "guys, or dudes" then it comes back to homophobic misogyny. Try calling a group "girls or ladies" when there is even one man standing within 10 feet of the group and men react like you called them a dirty word.
We need to stand up for women everywhere and fight the patriarchy.
Transgender people understand better than LITERALLY anyone that words are powerful. Words can kill.
Using male terminology as the default is really common and as Juliett says probably reflects the relative value that society places on men and women.I call out my male friends on the use of girl and other gendered or sexuality based terms as derogatory comments. And the not so amazing thing is,is that they dont like it and have said that sometimes they feel like they are walking on eggshells. Personally I dont like bro or dude even if I do hear them a lot.
I've noticed that most people who say that when speaking to me also say it to other women. My impression is that they don't think of it as a gendered expression, but more like an expletive. The people I know who use the expression a lot are very trans friendly and in some ways I think it's a result of them thinking of me as a woman, so they don't treat me any differently to how they treat other women. That is of course a good thing, but I'll admit I cringe every time it happens. I'm slowly getting used to it though.
Of course, if I noticed that I'm the only woman they speak to like that, I would call them out on it. But so far, I've only encountered people who use it regardless of who they're speaking to, so I've decided to tolerate it and do my best to get used to it.
I think some people just use that phrase.
Also, there seem to be some people that blow up when anyone refers to them as 'dude' as well.
I am probably a lot different than most as I don't get all caught up in that pronoun nonsense.
I tell people they can call me whatever they like and I won't care. Transition is hard enough from a physical point-of-view, I can't imagine adding the additional complexity of trying to be the 'pronoun police' for those in my life.
It could be just that I'm a bit older than a lot of MtF and I am 'over' other people's view of me.
Again - this is the important point - I have never heard him use "man" with another woman.
If he did, it would be cool. But he didn't, so there is a definitely a problem.
The idea is to be treated equally.
I always believe in standing up for yourself. Always. It has gotten me very far in life and I have learned some hard lessons by not standing up.
Well that's exactly it innit Kate, as soon as were identified as Trans were something else aren't we. We have na choice to stay as low profile as possible, go to work an only discuss work related topics an nothing personal (methinks best). Or we have na bull in na china shoppe technique. Not good at all. we can proclaim or simply confess to whom we ar an deal with consequences. Doo bi doo. Being trans is like walkin through a cow pasture, ->-bleeped-<-te is out there an no matter what yer gonna step innit sooner or later. Its very important to know when to stand up fer yerself, an when to walk away from a fruitless an agitating situation. I still seriously commend ye on na wae ye handled this situation. Now think Kate, with that kind of gob->-bleeped-<-te do ye think if ye handled it ani different that it would or could have gone ani other wae? Better to ponder is all na interactions that go rite. :)
"Sup, girl."
"Sup, man."
"Sup, brah."
"Sup, dude."
All one in the same to me. Then again I'm a tomboy. I'm not trying to be all girly girl. /shrug.
Usually when you hear, "Hey, woman." it's either flirtatious, indifferent, or it has negative connotations like, "Hey, wtf are you doing? Ugh, women." Lol. Don't forget to breathe and not take yourself or all of those little things so seriously. Enjoy it. ;)
You forgot 'sup, sir?
And now your list is complete
We teach people how to treat us, and if they think misgendering is ok (because we act like it's no big deal[even though they know it stings us inside]) they will continue to do it.
Quote from: kittenpower on November 28, 2015, 05:24:04 PM
You forgot 'sup, sir?
And now your list is complete
We teach people how to treat us, and if they think misgendering is ok (because we act like it's no big deal[even though they know it stings us inside]) they will continue to do it.
It really all depends on the connotation. If it's strictly professional then sure, proper pronouns or none at all. If it's friendly in nature and the person has been known to have a habit of throwing "man" or "dude" around then I don't see it as a big deal at all and 99% of the time it's endearing.
I have a long time friend I've known for almost two decades. He likes to call me all of the above, including "Bo" (Southern for bro or brother). Does it sting a little? Not enough for me to correct him because it's endearing, but it does register so I'll give you that. I did come flat out and say the other day that, "I'm growing friggin' tits, dude. I'm not a man." It was more funny than anything and was a bit lackluster because I still have male genitalia, but sometimes you just do like I said and laugh and enjoy it.
Quote from: iKate on November 25, 2015, 01:43:10 PM
A colleague of mine on my team had this habit of appending "man" when talking to people.
However I notice that he only says it when talking to men.
And me.
So I called him on it politely today.
"Hi <name> I wanted to tell you this in person but I have been meaning to tell you for a while and I have to leave now so I'll say it here.
Please do not call me "man" in casual conversation.
I know you mean no harm but nobody else really does that and it makes me uncomfortable. Thanks."
This was over IM because we run around all day and I was getting ready to leave.
When he came back he said he never said that to me even though he said it on the phone 10 minutes earlier.
He didn't say whether he would comply with my request but I assume he will because HR can get involved very quickly and their policy and local law is to respect gender identity and expression.
Am I being too sensitive about it?
I'm just fed up of hearing it for one and the other problem for me is that he was not saying that to any other women. Ever. He claims to be supportive but you know people say things so they wouldn't get in trouble.
Thoughts and feedback welcome.
I think it depends on who the person is and what the relationship is. I mean, I know while I don't say "man" to girlfriends, I do say "dude" all the time in a gender neutral kinda way to girlfriends and guy friends alike.
I think if someone in a professional setting who is ONLY saying "man" to men and you, THEN it's problematic. But if it's a friend who throws that word around to anyone and everyone, then not so much.
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Quote from: Dana88 on November 29, 2015, 11:53:13 AM
I think if someone in a professional setting who is ONLY saying "man" to men and you, THEN it's problematic.
Yes, that is exactly what was happening.
Quote from: Nikki G on November 28, 2015, 02:43:01 PM
"Sup, girl."
"Sup, man."
"Sup, brah."
"Sup, dude."
All one in the same to me. Then again I'm a tomboy. I'm not trying to be all girly girl. /shrug.
Usually when you hear, "Hey, woman." it's either flirtatious, indifferent, or it has negative connotations like, "Hey, wtf are you doing? Ugh, women." Lol. Don't forget to breathe and not take yourself or all of those little things so seriously. Enjoy it. ;)
I have a name. People can use that instead.
Some people also use "man" like punctuation.
A conversation would go like this.
Me: "Hey <name> can you look at this over here? I don't think this setup looks right."
Him: "Yeah, man. I'll take a look at it."
Me: "Alright, thanks!"
Him: "Hey <name>, I think I figured out the problem. This thing wasn't connected to that thing and I fixed it."
Me: "Wow, thanks! I never would have figured that out."
Him: "No problem, anytime, man."
I don't think I've ever heard him refer to another woman as "man" and that was the problem. Especially not as punctuation in a sentence.
It is important to note that I don't think he means any harm. I think it's just familiarity he has to break out of. We have been working in close quarters for 3 years now. When I made the switch over I explained to everyone that occasional slips are OK but a constant pattern isn't really nice.
And the fact that he never recalls saying, "man" says that this is subconscious misgendering.
I'd definitely agree that it's simply force of habit. You two have been building a close working partnership and friendship over the last 3 years; it'll take time to adjust. Keep working with him, but don't get too riled up when he slips. :)
Quote from: Nikki G on November 29, 2015, 01:44:01 PM
I'd definitely agree that it's simply force of habit. You two have been building a close working partnership and friendship over the last 3 years; it'll take time to adjust. Keep working with him, but don't get too riled up when he slips. :)
I didn't. I really just told him it was a friendly reminder and don't get too worried about it. Just try his best. I'm not forcing anything on anyone. Just a gentle reminder that some things are different and some things aren't OK now.
Now that I am full time, I also get this.
One guy gave me 'hi, man' and I corrected him. He approached later to apologize, and once it was all over he said again "bye, man... oh, ->-bleeped-<-".
I get it, it takes time adjust. :/ Will get better once I get confident with using my female voice. Sigh.
Another guy insists on calling me 'dude', per wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude). I told him I do not like being called that way. He disagreed with discontinuing use, but didn't do it again. So also giving time to adjust.
Patience is required on every turn when being trans, because schools didn't do their job covering us as part of the society.