Hi,
Let me introduce myself -I am Veronica, Lisabeth's SO. Lisabeth has introduced you all to me on New Years Eve. I would like to think that was a turning point for us towards a fresh start.
The foundation of our relationship was shattered by Lisabeth's web of lies and deciet. I have a range of emotions consisting of anger and sadness, mostly sadness from the
betrayal of Lisabeth's deceit. I believe a realtionship is based on honesty and trust. We need to rebuild our foundation with open truthful communication . Sharing this forum on
New Year's Eve after a heart to heart talk "to start fresh without lies" is our first step towards a new beginning!
I think a combination of therapy and open communication without deceit is a great place to start. We need to rebuild what was destroyed by betrayal. I am hurting right now but I am hopeful the pain will dissipate each day as we rebuild what is so precious in a realtionship -trust!
I think you all are an AWESOME group!! What a great support system. I have just recently joined a support system for so of crossdressers and it has been a positive experience. This has been most enlightening. I am currently researching reading materials to educate me more on the subject, focusing on the couple as a whole.
My first session with the therapist is tomorrow. I am looking forward to our session and future sessions together. I love my so and I am hopeful this will bring us closer together- if he can remain honest and communicate. We need to come to an understanding that will benefit all of us as a family. It is difficult to trust again...
happy new year
peace and love to you all
veronica :)
Hi Veronica
Welcome to Susans
I am sure that you wil find your time here a truly positive and suporitive experiance.
Best Wishes to both You and Yours
Love
Kate
Welcome Veronica, we have a lot of wise SO's here and a friendly group.
Dennis
Hello Veronica, welcome and pleased to meet you (=
Trust is hard but doable... just be sure to understand the reasons, I think.
Best wishes for you two (=
Veronica,
I'm glade you came to Susan's and read the posts your Lisabeth wrote. I'm also glad that you love and care for Lisabeth to educate yourself about this other side to Lisabeth. I believe that education will help you understand the deceit and make it to where the trust will be regained in your relationship.
I too am a SO here at Susan's. My partner and best friend is Leah, whom is also my Spouse. I know that hurt and feeling of no trust is left. But when I considered where the deceit stemmed from, I could understand the why it was more desirable to deceive.
I don't think, but then I can only imagine, that any other type of SO on this site in the lives of this unique group of individuals, is much different than yours or mine or any others. We all still feel and all still want the same things in our relationships. Trust, respect, love, and the chance to react and respond to our partners. Not our reactions and responses imagined for us and so they don't trust enough to communicate and share so they hide. I realize all human beings try to avoid what they are afraid of. But the courage to face those fears and allow us to exercise our courage to accept them is only fair to ask.
All relationships have down falls at some point in the trust category. Relationships are like a river. They run smooth not a ripple...then as life and the things in them get filled up with many activities the river runs a bit faster and ripples eventually start to form. Because the pace escalates and lack of time and what ever help contribute to lack of communication and taking the trust and sharing in the relationship for granted, those ripples grow and grow and become rapids. The rapids in life not headed and maneuvered through to smoother waters lead to crashing waterfalls. Churning fierce water below the falls sometimes create an ebby. The swirling waters that just go around and around. The relationship without communication can go through this as well. Where because of hurt and anger and lack of trust to reach for the life raft being thrown can slow the escape from the ebby to safety. That lack of trust to reach for the life raft can be bridged by education and communicating with the other in the relationship. Truth and honesty and not taking for granted the loved ones feelings are the boulders on which you can find rest and peace to digest the newfound knowledge from the education. But don't slip on the boulders thinking your partner fits perfectly to textbooks descriptions of what lies ahead because they are all unique and special and different. That Ebby was hard enough to climb out of. Once the trust in your partners life raft has been restored it calms waters on the other side of the ebby and smooth flowing again.
You have small children I gather from the posts. I want to pose this question to you. What is a Child seeks most? LOVE... right the security to know they are loved no matter what. Also to trust that you will be honest with them. Not ever lie to or deceive them.
Now I pose another question to you. How can you teach them not to lie if you keep things from them? How can you expect them to have trust if you deceive them? Now I want to gently point out. Are you not demanding of your spouse to do to your children and you in cahoots with Lisabeth, doing the same thing that has hurt you so deeply. Why would you want to hurt them, as you have been hurt?
Now I pose another question. How can you be teaching your children to face their fears and not hide from that, which may cause others to question them as a person and think them strange? Your guiding role as a parent is not to shield them and shelter them and cover their eyes with blinders so they might not see something they will eventually see out in the world one day. IT will be seen at a store or gas station or in the mall or at a restaurant. Why not let them experience it with someone they trust and love and that loves them? Sharing there is nothing to fear from them.
If you want complete trust in your children when they are in Junior High and High School when it's very important to have for guiding them through some very rough water in their own life, you have to build that trust now. They will then be able to come to you with anything that arises. HIding things from them will teach them to hide what the social sect thinks not normal or is unacceptable.
I feel for your hurt Veronica I have been there. I feel for you fear that your world is not a storybook romance. I have put you both on my prayer list for wisdom and strength to meet what ever lies ahead.
Just issues to ponder.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Hello Veronica,
Welcome to Susans. It is a pleasure to finally meet you. Peggiane makes some very valid points with regard to telling or not telling the children. Too often adults underestimate their childrens ability to understand. I remember many times as a child how the adults in my life would say things like you wouldn't understand. I always thought, how can I hope to understand anything if you don't give me the chance? I remember when the movie Fantastic Voyage came out. I really wanted to see that movie. My aunt and sister went to see it but told me I couldn't go because I wouldn't understand it. When they returned she told me how good it was and that they should have taken me. Duuhhh!
The same apprehensions you have about the children finding out are very similar to the apprehensions Lisabeth had about telling you. To be sure, she should not have gone behind your back after you took her stuff and that will probably take more time to heal then the initial disclosure, but at least when you asked her to be honest she was and that is a good start. It shows she would rather be truthful than deceitful. I think she has learned her lesson and that you now have a foundation for rebuilding that will be stronger than before.
TGism is a very complex thing with many facets and colors. Everyone is different and yet the same in so many ways. There is a lot to digest and there is a lot of information here. I wish you well on your voyage of discovery. You will learn things about Lisabeth and about yourself as well. It is indeed a Fantastic Voyage. So, fix yourself a cup of tea, or other relaxing beverage, sit down, take your shoes off and set a spell.
Good Journey,
Cassie
Hi Veronica: It is wonderful you have joined the group and that you are on a quest to learn and understand what this all means.
You seem like a caring and loving person and I think that LisaBeth is so fortunate to have you as her SO. I can understand your feelings about having your trust betrayed. That is an issue many of us struggle with. I hope to learn from you. I have not come out to my SO at this time and am afraid to. I know that I have to.
For me the fear of loss, the possible negative changes on my marriage, etc have paralyzed me. Before finding support groups like Susans I always felt like a freak or some strange creature on earth. If I had such negative feelings about myself, how in the world could anyone accept me, love me, especially my SO, family, and friends. The irony is that often we don't tell our SO because we are afraid of losing them, but then when SO's are informed the loss of trust by not telling them often leads to the outcome we are afraid of to begin with. I guess my point is it often feels like "I'm dammed if I do, and I'm dammed if I don't."
LisaBeth loves you very much and wants the relationship to survive. It is a hard life, but with your support it will be easier to move forward. Please post often because you can provide valuable insights to help others.
Molly
thank you all for the warm welcome!
i feel this forum is a wonderful support system for lisabeth as well as myself...
peggiann and cassandra you have provided some wonderful insight -thank you for
your input! i think at some point we will tell the children but that is a long way off for
now. I felt like new year's eve. was a turning point for us towards a new beginning
with out deceit ...well the wind was knocked out of my sail in the sea of life so to
speak...lisabeth continues with deception...i cried myself to sleep last night-i was so
distraught by the lies lisabeth continues to weave in the web of deception...i found out
about a major purchase ( close to $ 600) on glasses ...mind you no rx is necessary for
lisabeth but 3 pairs of designer glasses from lenscrafters were purchased ! lisabeth
insisted that there were not any others secrets to bring forward ...i was devastated
but i felt we needed to talk about it last evening...well-lisabeth continued to deny of any
other purchases ...the behaviors being exhibited are those of a gambler who has spun out
control!! due to lisabeth's past history with addiction this is a major concern to me -we
can barely pay our bills monthy and the excessive charging on credit cards has to stop
one pair of glasses would have been okay but three is over the edge!!! if lisabeth
continues with these impulsive risky purchases we will be without a roof over our heads!!
i can not trust lisabeth -i thought after putting the cards on the table new years eve.
we could work towards rebuilding the foundation of our realtionship. i think lisabeth
can not differentiate lies from the truth any longer it comes so naturally!! i am a very
open person who is very accepting. i want our relationship to work and i am willing
to work on it but like any relationship there are compromises... a step at a time!
lisabeth's behaviors are not reality based -quite grandiose when finances are an
issue! the deception needs to stop if we are going to have a future together!
thank you all for listening! i am all cried out and needed to get this off my chest and
vent.
veronica :'(
molly,
i hope that some day you can have the courage to share your secret with your
spouse. if she loves you she will accept you. i feel the deceit and betrayal are
so destructive to a realtionship! have you thought about therapy? i have my
first appt. with the therapist today. i am hopeful this will give us the insight
and guidance to rebuild the foundation of our relationship.
peace and love to you molly on your journey of self discovery ...may you find the
strength to include your spouse!
veronica
Hi Veronica,
I understand the Credit Card dictating ones life whirlwind. Not very many people can use them wisely. Checking accounts can also be a bad thing for those whom can not control urges and impulses to buy whimsically.
The shoes of not having to hide what Lisabeth is doing are new and not quite a perfect fit. Lisabeth 's gratification from CD is probably a very strong urge to purchase and create the perfect femme image as possible. Hense the impulsive buying.
Measures will need to be taken for dealing with damage control.
I sympithize with you. We have goals set that we are working toward and it is hard when one of us stray from the guide lines in budget we chose.
Oh... I'm sorry I should have told you I'm Peggian's SO.
Leah
HI Veronica,
Now it probably feels like your in the river and someone is at the edge skipping stones in your direction just to see if you can dodge them successfully.
Here are a few things that might help.
1) You ask for communication. you have to now fine tune how to read the communication when it comes. You become better at this as you understand the special needs of Lisabeth. From what I can gather the CD get gratification from the putting the whole femme package together. Also from actually seeing the finished result on. Thus the impulsive buying to create the pack.
2) More communication. I don't know for sure but I would imagine that the guilt feelings Lisabeth may have felt in result of they New Years clearing of deceit and new path chosen. Guilt can cause depressions that manifest themselves in many ways. One to buy impulsive and in grandioso style. lots of people that suffer from depression have to learn to have safe guards for against the damage that can be done when things get out of hand. (an issue to address when not upset and angry.)
3.) Old habits die hard. A habit takes 21 times doing something corrected to desired behavior before it is truely a broken habit or pattern. If you mess up on 3 or 17 on the 21 count you start over. The good thing to know is that each time you usually get close and closer to the 21 and eventually reach it and the habit is gone. Probabley where the deceit about glasses fits in.
4.) Patients is not easy when households are effcted by one person's actions. So sorry money issues have to become a part of this all ready hard to manage situation.
Now for some idea's to address what can keep this issue in check.
Maybe Lisabeth could get a part time job to fund that part of the needs of crossdressing. Hence not using house hold budget. Another positive to this might be if it were a fast food or convenience store type job Lisabeth might even be able to dress and meet another of the desires the CD seeks.
Also have Lisabeth have an account that only is for this side of her expenses. Change things maybe to have Lisabeth not able to get at the monies that are needed to run the family. If it's Credit cards have Lisabeth give them all up for now untill managment of impulsiveness has been met.
In any relationship it must be ballanced for Fair, Firm and Freindly for all. Be sure not to make consessions that will not be ballance equally.
Remember teaching an old dog new tricks can be done through persistance. Please don't think I'm calling Lisabeth a dog. I'm not it's just the best quote I could think of to use to get the point accross. Never loose sight of the end result you want in your relationship. It's not 50/50 give and take. Would you hire someone that only give you 50 percent on the job. I wouldn't. I want the 110 percent in put. I want what I expect to give myself. Everyone should. You deserve that. Never give up on your dreams just change the plan to get the end result if something your doing fails to continue to gain ground.
That Fair Firm and Freindly thing? People tend to get away with what ever we let them. Keep you side equal and be forgiving to be able to let go of past baggage. If you don't it will be like someone is throwing weeds back in the already weed garden row, and when left unattend the root again.
I Hope something I've pointed out maybe of help to you both.
Smiles,
Peggiann
HI Molly,
I too hope you can share this side of you with your spouse and have her come here for us to meet. We need her to to help us through as we help her cope through this new side of you. This is how we gain strength in others that we can relate to. I have shared already my thoughts on what not knowing and how devistating that can be. It is far worse that one knowing ever could be.
Molly read over your post here to Veronica. You yourself have said exactly why you must not let more time go by whithout telling her. Take courage in the love she has for you and face this part of your life together. It can possibley be more enjoyable for all concerned. Remebr lack of communication and trust are what erode away the best of marriages.
You to are on my prayer list for your courage to handle what you know you eventually must. Also for you spouse to have openness to accept you... all aspects of you.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Lisabeth, (talking to Lisabeth)
You shouldnt be making $600 purchases for sunglasses, especially at this major point in your life (or any other just because thats silly). You should try to return it and concentrate on whats important. I read your earlier posts and responded with hopes that you both were trying to improve your understanding of each other and start building a bridge. That move was just plain bad, and I would even be angry at doing so. Its not a CD issue, its just basic common financial sense and relationship communication.
Hi Veronica welcome,
Hope we help bring some support to you and Lisabeth.
This site has a variety of different people with a wealth of knowledge and empathy, various backgrounds, experiences, and ideas.
I hang out in the fashion and crafts section mostly, but stick my head out from time to time into respond to some posts.
First of all I want to thank everyone for the warm welcome they have given Veronica. I am very lucky to have a woman like her in my life, yet I continue with deceit and lies. I know I have a problem with impulse control. I am out of control lately. I am trying to build a perfect package, and I have been going overboard lately.
Quote from: Peggiann on January 09, 2006, 10:02:03 AM
Maybe Lisabeth could get a part time job to fund that part of the needs of crossdressing. Hence not using house hold budget.
If it's Credit cards have Lisabeth give them all up for now untill managment of impulsiveness has been met.
I am actually working a second part time job at a home improvement store right now. Also, Veronica asked me to give up the credit cards and I left them for her on the counter this morning.
I don't seem to have control sometimes. I didn't go to the store to spend $600. I just wanted to get one pair of glasses with totally clear lenses to give me a feminine look and thought it would be under $100. I tried on about 15 pairs and had the choices narrowed down to two. The salesgirl was so patient with me, helping me find the right pair for my face. I decided on a pair and found out after I decided to buy them that they were $250. Yikes I thought I can't afford these. But I had gone that far, and knew I wouldn't have the guts for a long time to do this again. For some reason at the last minute, in a moment of weakness, I said, "maybe I should get the other pair too". I don't know why I did it. I just had no self control. When I went back to pick them up, a pair of nice sunglasses caught my eye and I said, "might as well get those as well. They were another $60. Again, no self control. For some reason when I get in the Lisabeth mode, my heart pounds faster, and I have little control over myself. It's like my male side takes a back seat, and she takes charge. I know this is a problem that I need to work out in therapy.
I love my wife and it bothers me deeply that I don't have more self control, even when I know we can't afford it. I will make this up to her no matter what it takes. She has every right to be furious with me. She is making steps to understand, and I turn around and do something like this. I really messed up and I'm sorry. Veronica has her appointment today with the therapist, and I hope it gave her a chance to get things off her chest. Hopefully, we can get through this. I am sincerely going to give it all I can to not make any more purchases unless she approves. I will keep you posted.
Thanks again for the warm welcome for Veronica,
Love
Lisabeth
Lisabeth,
It takes a lot of charactor to admit whe you've done something wrong. That a positive. Peggiann says "Build on those positive things to become more and more like whom you want to become. Each time we do something that feels right remember what it was for and how you did it." Then do it some more.
I agree with Kendra. Take them back. Back up your statement of knowing it was wrong and take action on the other statement to make it up to her what ever it take. Take them back and get the money back and lay it with those credit cards.
Leah
Lisabeth,
Seems to me you have gamblers disease. What you describe is called chasing your losses. I know it's not quite the same thing but in a sense they are very similar. You realised that you had spent $250 dollars, then you figured I'm going to get in trouble for this so in for a penny in for a pound as the old saying goes. You let the adrenalin high take over. You have to maintain discipline. If you don't you are going to blow it if you haven't already. Get a grip and get your money back on those glasses first thing.
I do a little professional blackjack playing on the side whenever I have a stake. Which lately hasn't happened but that's another story. I say professional because I don't gamble. I play perfect blackjack with very strict betting rules. Before ever entering a casino, I practice, practice practice to make sure that I have each play down pat. I bet only what the betting strategy requires. I double when and only when I am supposed too. I play a specific amount per session and only that amount. I quit when I am supposed to quit no matter what. I have a beggining middle and end game and it works. I win or I break even and when I loose I loose very small. I don't do it a lot because it is very grueling work and I do mean work. It takes patience, concentration and most importantly discipline.
I see people at a table all the time who come into a game and seem to be playing good solid blackjack and then loose it. They start chasing loses. They let adrenaline take over and they are so certain the next hand is going to be the one when they should have quit 4 hands ago. They play with money they can't afford to loose and are hell bent to win it back. That just doesn't happen. They get wiped out because they did not stick to their limits. Sometimes you just have to get up from the table and call it a day.
I play ten sessions. If I loose three I quit and get some food and take in a show. Just not my day. But I don't loose $600. I go in with a $2000 stake and play ten sessions at $200 a piece. I have never lost more than $180 in a days work. I have won far more. The point of all this is that what I do takes great self control. And that my dear is what you are lacking.
I mentioned that I have spent a lot of time practicing. The practice is not just about rather to hit or not depending on the dealers up card it's about developing the discipline to always do the right thing when it is called for no matter what. You have to practice, you have to develop the necessary discipline to do the right thing no matter what.
When you found out the purchase was more than you could afford you should have gotten up from the table. Instead you figured you were going to get them anyway and hey might as well get these others since I can't afford them anyway. What kind of hairbrained logic is that? Then you compound the problem by concealing it and denying that you did it when confronted with the bill. This is not helping your case.
I don't say this lightly but you have a shopping disease and you'd better find a cure fast. $600! For glasses. Heck you can get two pairs of designer glasses at American Lenses for $99 and that's with Rx lenses. I have bought very cool looking sunglasses for $5. Getting a look is no excuse for spending that kind of money when you don't have it.
I've gone on long enough here. I think you get the point. Now take action and get this thing under control. I wish you the best and hope you will work hard at doing better.
Good luck,
Cassie
Hi Veronica,
Glad to finally meet you. It's great that you want to find out about this side of your SO.
Lisabeth has told me that she loves you and the kids. She was excited about you join us her at Susan's.
And that she couldn't wait for all of us here to meet you.
I feel some what guilt of her buying the glasses. :( :-[
Lisabeth had emailed me that she was planning on buy some glasses
Then in a later email she said that she had.
I'm sorry that she didn't tell you and that she spend all that money.
I know, I know money is tight in our household too.
Hey Lisabeth spending more then $50 dollars in our household, outside of the normal budgeted expenses, requires both SO and my agreement.
Please Sis, don't do anything like that again. :(
One of the best parts of shopping, besides trying on the stuff, is finding the bargains and than being able to bragging about them. Today I was out looking for new tennis shoes, (the ones I have are getting tattered there over a year old.) and I decide to get some that will work in both the male and female mode. Did find any that fit our budget so will keep looking.
As Cassandra said you can find good looking sunglasses for $5 to $15 bucks.
I know the desire (compulsion) to buy things to make yourself look more feminine.
But you can control it girl. Remember one small step at a time.
Veronica, Lisabeth and I are much alike. She is one of my sisters her at Susan's.
Remember that Lisabeth is still learning about herself. Your SO wants to share this part of self if you will accept her. I know this is hard, especial after what she did, but she needs your support and your guidance.
She is like a teenager, acting before she thinks about how it will effect others; hence the impulse buying. This is not an excuse, just a fact.
I'm sure Lisabeth would love for you to help her to be the best looking female she can.
Hope your session with the therapy was a helpful.
I'm praying for you and your family.
:)
Jillieann
hello leah, peggiann,wickham kendra, melissa girl, cassandra and jillieann!!
( ooh i hope i didn't leave anyone out)..
thank you all for your wonderful feedback! it has been insightful!
i think the deceit and mistrust is the BIG issue that is destroying our relationship
i can forgive but the pain is so severe -the big question is how do i trust again?
lisabeth has an addiction history and this is spiraling out of control!! i wanted
lisabeth to return the big purchase to lenscrafters -this morning she is refusing to!
i am open to exploring the cd part of her, but this makes it very difficult if lisabeth can
not set limits and compromise for the wellbeing of the family! hey i don't even have
prada designer glasses and i need rx glasses for driving!!! the fact that the credit cards
were " on the table" doesn't justify the purchase!! plain and simple we can not afford
the glasses!!! if we were wealthy it would not matter but the principle of the matter
is we CAN NOT afford the purchase!!!! i am currently driving a vehicle that is over
ten years old and has over 130,000 miles on it -it barely goes over 55 on the highway
w/o the front end shaking...i think the priority is a new vehicle for the safety of the
so and the children!! lisabeth was out of work for a year and a half and that has set
us back financially. the part time job lisabeth has helps get us back on track but with
the impulsive spending sprees we are furthur and furthur from the track!
i have always worked and have a career and raise the children...i work as a nurse
on an adolescent behavioral health unit at a local hosp. i am familiar with adolescent
"acting out" and yes-lisabeth is behaving like an irrational teenager!! the bigger
issue is the addiction piece and the manipulative deceitful behavior!!! the
therapist appt. went well ( perfect timing after another deceitful act of lisabeths!!)
i am very hurt and can only handle so much i feel like my heart has been ripped out
and lisabeth is using it as a yo-yo! i tend to be a nurturer and tend to everyones
needs but my own. i need to recharge my batteries and stay healthy -i decided to
start painting again and going to museums ( i am a nurse but art is my first love)
i am hoping that lisabeth and i can take the necessary steps to rebuild our relationship.
i can not be an enabler any longer -limits have to be set and the deceit i can no longer
tolerate! we have our first session together with the therapist coming up. this morning
when i dicussed limits -the response i received "you are not going to set limits on me"
" you are so controlling"...that hurt...i am trying to rebuild this relationship! lisabeth
has come from a controlling emotionally abusive upbringing ( his mother) so his response
was defensive.
jillieann i hope some day you find the strength to include your wife on your journey.
deceit is what can destroy a relationship. i also was brought up in christian family
(catholic). but i am a very open person with an artisitic adventurous spirit.
diversity is what makes our world so wonderful. love and acceptance can make
a relationship stronger deceit can destroy it!!!!
love and peace to all,
veronica
Veronica,
Hug time. Wrap your arms around yourself and sqeeze hard and say I love me out loud. You need to be kind to yourself now too.
Sorry to hear Lisabeth's words are empty and meaningless. Here in the forum we have to at first, take what someone says at face value, trusting that they are in fact who they profess to be and do what they say they will do.
"I love my wife and it bothers me deeply that I don't have more self control, even when I know we can't afford it. I will make this up to her no matter what it takes. She has every right to be furious with me. "
In my eyes if Lisabeth doesn't keep her/his word and live up to the words from that post then I would have trouble trusting also.
Lisabeth Your Word is the most important thing you have control over in life. It's one of the more important things that is part of your charactor. If your word is no good then neither would a written contract be. It's the person behind the spoken word that keeps a contract. What you wrote in the post is like a contract. You put it in writing and sign your name to it.
Veronica You are right.
i need to recharge my batteries and stay healthy -i decided to
start painting again and going to museums ( i am a nurse but art is my first love)
When you pour all there is from the pitcher and then share that from your personal glass too and no one sees that the pitcher stay full you can't keep giving. You'll have nothing left to give.
There are givers and takers in this world and then there are those that do both. It's the latter of the 3 that makes a good marriage. I'm going to share some wise words shared with me once.
Never be angry at the same time.
Never yell at each other unless the house is on fire.
If one has to win an argument let it be your mate.
If you have to criticize, do it lovingly.
Never bring up mistakes of the past.
Neglect the whole world rather than each other.
Never go to sleep with an argument unsettled.
At least once a day say one kind thing to your life's partner.
When you have done something wrong, be ready to admit it and ask for forgiveness.
It takes two to have a quarel and the one in the wrong is the one who does the most talking.
Always Always state the issues TRUTHFULLY!
The one on past mistakes can be challenging. It can be what stands in the way of healing and moving on in life. Hence hard to trust again.
If one does something wrong and are truely sorry and want to be forgiven for it, then they have to be willing to make it right or they have no business asking forgieness of the other.
When arguements settled then they are over done with. Settled means, the confession, the fix to make it right and then the forgiveness rendered. Without the fix the hurt remains. The offence is still offencive and remains a wrongfull act and the offened still remain offended. The confession becomes " rubbing-it-in". The forgiveness rendered and yet still brought up again becomes a whippingstick to punish more and not forgiveness at all.
Leah says, "Your not going win in an arguement everytime, so pick the ones that are important to you and don't back down untill you've accomplished your end result." In other words, it better be worth it to stay up all night and finish and settle. Or nobody sleeps. But "I have to work tomorrow" you say. To bad nothing is more important than harmony in your marriage. I say get started earlier.
What about consessions? Don't ever settle for less than you can live with. It will only leave the issues to reserface.
When you have a marriage, no one gets to have what they want by themselves if the family doesn't have what they need first. When you married that's what you said "I do" to. Your home, your kids and all it takes to keep it a float come first.
If there is a break down in this. Then it needs fixed and got back on course. The impulsive disorder can not be an excuss. That is what it becomes with the glasses when Lisabeth is not willing to take them back. If it was the disorder problem that caused the action then it should be simple and easy to take them back so be honest with yourself. You wanted them on a beer pocket book and champaign tastes don't make sence. So why would you want to keep them now that you know why you bought them in the first place if it weren't for other motives than implusive buying. It wasn't inpulsive acording to Jillieanne's post. The last one of those helpful hints now covered. I'll hush for a while now.
Hope you have a better today and tomorrow. I hope your therapy will solve some of these issues too. Lisabeth has to have help with these issues in the therapy. Know that it isn't going to get fixed over night. Just keep your chins up both of you.
Smiles,
Peggiann
hello,
thank you for your advice and wisdom peggianne from your repsonse to my last post...
today brings me much sadness and a feeling of emptyness...i asked lisabeth to return the
glasses all 3 pairs that total 600 dollars the response was i'll return the sunglasses only!
the sunglasses were 45 dollars. the fact here is this behavior is unacceptable and very
deceitful and selfish!! i can not reward this negative destructive act by allowing lisabeth
to keep the glasses. why would one reward such a decitful act -only to reinfoirce negative acts.
the frosting on the cake of deceit is when lisabeth indicated the plan to write a thank you
letter to lenscrafters for the wonderful shopping experience and great service!! i am numb
with sadness and frustration! :'(
i agree with your following statement peggiann:
When you have a marriage, no one gets to have what they want by themselves if the family doesn't have what they need first. When you married that's what you said "I do" to. Your home, your kids and all it takes to keep it a float come first.
the message lisabeth is sending out is "we" -so and children are not important!
i will see where today takes me...i am trying to take a day at a time
veronica :'(
Good morning Veronica,
I can feel for you :'( I had a sinking in my chest when I read what you wrote. Give it time a day or so more bringing up nothing about it and try for lite conversation if anything at all. only because you need regroup time and Lisabeth needs it to soak in time. I don't see comprimize here. Not even a little.
Keep your chin up and smile and again give yourself a hug and tell yourself I love me.
:'(
Peggiann
I've avoided stating my opinion here largely because I concur with what the others have said. There does seem to be a problem here on a par with addiction.
I'm not sure that characterizing it repeatedly as deceit is going to get Lisabeth to go along with the program though. It's likely making her defensive and oppositional. She has a problem and she needs to take steps to deal with it. Returning the purchases is one step, therapy or a 12 step program would be another.
It helps that she doesn't have access to the credit cards anymore. Maybe the two of you could sit down and look at your budget and make a rule that both of you are bound by about limits on spending, like Jillieann has. ie: neither of you will spend more than $50 in a week on things for yourself without consulting with the other. You might even have to make rules about what is a purchase for self and what is for household.
Your anger is justified, Veronica, especially in light of the refusal to return the purchases. I'm concerned, though, that using trigger words like deceit and lies is making it more difficult for the two of you to work through this. I suppose an analogy would be if Lisabeth were alcoholic and had just gone on a drinking binge. Yes, she would have lied to get the booze and to drink it, but the problem is more than the deceit.
Dennis
Hi and welcome Veronica dear.
I cant add any more other than copy what has been said already.
I hope it works out for you and Lisabeth. I think the idea of sitting down and agreeing to the limit is very wise. See, I have alittle trouble also. But, I do wait untill the bills are paid, and if I have some extra. Like I work overtime, then I'd use that for my f'o money. I like to buy dvds and cd's Mostly from the 70s music,
and horror movies. But, its agreed that thats my play money and I can do as I please.See, we have 2 car notes, and house note, and alot of other bills. So, those come first. I hope Lisabeth comes to her sences and gets with the program. Huggs. :angel:
In my OPINION you both need to sit down and have a nice long talk without name calling, without refusing to compromise (etc.). You both need to understand so very very much!
...
I will not say anything else so I'll actually post this one...
Best of luck to you two, but luck is not what you need right now.
Quote from: veronica on January 08, 2006, 03:26:13 PM
I believe a realtionship is based on honesty and trust.
Hi
From my point o view veronica nailed it on the wall with "trust" it is also clear that the needs of the
family is her top prioriy! Also clear is the great love that she has for lizabeth.
Lizabeth... YOUR FAMILY NEEDS YOU! You must put your total trust into veronicas hands and make every effort to rebuild her trust..
If you cannot set aside your vanity and trust her to help you.....
well let me just say, that a bag full of regrets and lost opertunitys is all i have left of my marrage.
With Love
Kate Alice Thomas
Good luck to you both
Hi Veronica and welcome to Susan's,
It's really great to have you here with us and if getting things of your chest helps you've come to the right place.
It sounds to me like you are a very sensible person who is trying to hold together a relationship under very difficult circumstances. I have to agree with the others that it's not a TG thing but in fact a compulsive disorder that needs to be addressed.
From Lisabeths posts I can see why you would want to work things out as she does have an endearing personality. It concerns me a little that she doesn't seem to share your concerns on the effect on the household budget. Perhaps some councelling from a therapist would assist in this area.
Look forward to youra and Lisabeth's future posts.
Shelley
Good morning Veronica,
I have posted something over in CD forum under post entitled "Progress" We aren't supposed to double post so what I've said there will not be repeated here.
However there is an item of thought I purpose to you.
Your spouse is your equal and how you address issues you have should be on the level you would want to be addressed when working things out. I did not mean that you be overbearing or controlling or in anyway mothering toward Lisabeth.
I feel that is how it would come across if someone took my personal belongings away. I realize you have given them back but at the same time the damage of belittlement had already been done too. It's only a natural response to hit back when we have been hurt in some way. It looks like you are both doing some hitting. Your job and how you work and relate with those individuals should be separate from how you work things out with your spouse. You'll need to try to change modes when you walk out the door when the shift at work is over.
I realize that it's also important for one to take care and pamper ones self. The problem comes when a ballance is tipped. In order to move back to positive ground there needs to be We in mind not I and Me. That Me, Me, Me syndrome can be very distructive for everyone.
I made a comment about rewards in the other colunm. I hate to think of it as rewards. That almost sound like your dealing with a child too. I personally never did rewards for good behavior. I always felt that took away from the personal saticfaction of accomplishing something. The accomplishment it's self is reward enough.
In some homes I am aware that even $10.00 is more than can be found because of existing debt obligation. That's why I suggested that a new job part time fund what was needed for this side to Lisabeth. What she is doing at the building center is for helping with the house hold too right. It was taken on because of the whole of debt and set backs from Lisabeth's being out of work. There for once Lisabeth has helped in undoing that obligation then the moneies earned on the part time job could go to her persueing the Lisabeth side.
You have other issue that you need to address as well. Us the time with the Therapist together to figure out just where you feel comfortable and where the amberrasment issues are. Education of what it is this curveball you have been thrown really means to you and your personal self is important for both of you to understand.
How old are your Children again?
All of what you and Lisabeth are going through your children can feel the tension from and may need help from the therapist with it. Dealing with parents at odds can cause them to feel guilt if they are left out in the cold as to what is causing mommy and daddy to be upset all the time. I am concerned for them in all of this as well as for how you and Lisabeth are doing. Children have always been my soft spot. Watch for signs of needing help in coping from their behavior and their grades in school. Those are where they show stress signs first.
How did you session go with the therapist? Was any ground made in the right direction or is it still to early to tell?
Well, I have to go pick Leah up from her appoinment and then we are headed out and won't be back till Saturday sometime. Bye Bye for now. Keep on Keeping on Lady it will work out one way or another.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Veronica,
I have been reading both postings hoping for some positive progress.
Looks like many of my sisters and brothers here are giving you good advice.
And yes there is more than TG issues here. Have you had your join the therapy session?
How did it go?
Yes Veronica I do plan on telling my wife soon. I know when I do, to say the least; she will be hurt and confused. To cause a loved one (the one person in this world that I love the most) pain is something no one in their right mind wants to do.
Beside that my mind keeps asking questions about how it will affect our marriage: will she think less of me, think I'm a sick-o, a religious heretic (I am a leader in our church), hate me and possibly even leave me.
Yes Shelly I read your postings on your wife finding out about you and I know that I need to tell here.
Just to give you an idea of the stress in our lives right now. We are both looking for new jobs maybe in another part of the country. She is having some health issues. Our youngest son 21 has no high school diploma, no job and got drunk and totaled one of our cars recently. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, we are in a financial crunch and really have to watch or pennies too.
I have began to write an article to share with my SO on what I am a Transgender/ Cross Dresser with (GID) Gender identity disorder. And what I believe religiously about what I am.
I will continue to pray for you Veronica, also for Lizabeth and your children.
Jillieann
hello,
thank you all for your input...
we are trying to communicate more openly. lisabeth tends to build walls and shut me out...
i need to allow her to open the lines of communication if we are to rebuild our relationship.
jillieann i am so sorry about your son i hope he was not injured in the accident, that must
of been very stressful for you and your spouse. it sounds like you have alot on your plate
at the moment. i think you will know when the " right" time will be to share your feelings
with your wife. i think it is so important to let her in and be open and honest.
i do not want to treat lisabeth like a child, since i am such a nurturer by nature i may
tend to get carried away-it was the only way i was reaching lisabeth. stubborness is
a trait lisabeth has along with selfishness and selfabsorbing tendancies but lisabeth can
also be kind and loving and funny with a sense of humor -a sense of humor is what i
remember most when we first met over 11 years ago. i am hoping we have many
more years together but i can not handle any more deceit it is destroying our
relationship. we need to start making compromises together and begin to rebuild
our relationship back to the loving one i thought we once had. we can be so good
together. our next appt. with the therapist is together on the 20th...i am looking forward
to appt.
:)
veronica
Quoteour next appt. with the therapist is together on the 20th...i am looking forward to appt.
Good luck to you both and keep in their Veronica I think Lisabeth will benefit from your support.
Shelley
Hi Veronica,
When my son totaled the car, because he had been drinking, he came out of it without a physical scratch on him. But he was really shook-up and lost his drivers licenses and spend a night in jail. He's ADD and Hyper-active too so this hasn't helped his depression. Mentally he is around 15 even though he is actually 21.We hope and pray he will find a new job so that he can get back on his feet again.
Let us know how all goes at the therapy session on the 20th.
If there is anyway I can help please let me know.
Hang in there.
Hugs, from your friend
Jillieann
Hi everyone,
Gee I feel like my name is mud around here. I think some of the things I said were somewhat misconstrued. One thing was that I continued to deny the glasses purchase even after confronted with the bill. There was no bill, Veronica simply asked if I had made any more purchases since New Year's. I couldn't get myself to tell her about the glasses because I knew she would be furious. I guess I have been hiding my purchases for so long, it came easier to lie than to face the truth. As I have said before, I am sorry that I continued my old habits of lies and deceit. The thing that hurt the most was this:
Quote from: Peggiann on January 10, 2006, 12:45:29 PM
Sorry to hear Lisabeth's words are empty and meaningless. Here in the forum we have to at first, take what someone says at face value, trusting that they are in fact who they profess to be and do what they say they will do.
"I love my wife and it bothers me deeply that I don't have more self control, even when I know we can't afford it. I will make this up to her no matter what it takes. She has every right to be furious with me. "
That really hurt alot, because when I said I would make it up to Veronica no matter what it takes, I meant it, and I will make it up to her. I really think we are going to be able to work things out. It may seem thick on my part but I never considered returning the glasses as one of the options at the time that I said that. I was hoping I could make it up to her in some other way.
I had wanted to get a pair of glasses for many years, but never had the guts to go through with it. The first pair was not impulsive, I had carefully planned it out, and called two days before to make sure I wouldn't be rejected. The second pair of glasses, and the sunglasses were impulsive though, and that is where I really need more self control. It was not easy for me to walk into that store in male mode and try on female glasses in front of other customers. I knew I would never go this far again, and did not want to let the price stop me at that point. I have a problem in that respect. It's like Cassie was saying about the gamblers addiction, you always think you can make it up somehow later. I know it was an expensive purchase when we really can't afford it. We both have decent salaries, but when I was out of work 3 years ago we ran up some debt. We are slowly working are way out of that. We both do everything we can to save most of the time. I work 50 hours every week including weekends and aside from the roughly $1500 total that I have spent on Lisabeth in the past 6 months, I rarely make pleasure purchases for myself. My wife and I have talked this over quite a bit lately, and I think we may have come up with some solutions that will be good for both of us. I will not get into those right now, but I think we both will be happy in the end.
I have given my wife my credit cards, and I don't plan to make any more crazy purchases like that. I was simply trying to come up with a complete female package over the past couple of months. I feel like I am through at this point. There are several small things that I would like, but I have agreed with Veronica, that when I feel like I need something, I will add it to a wishlist, and if finances permit, I may be able to make the purchase, but only with her consent. I am hoping I can abide by this, and can avoid any more lies and deceit. I really want this marriage to work, and I am thankful that I have a wife like Veronica, who is at least making attempts to understand, even though I know this is so hard for her. Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their input, even though the truth hurts some times.
Love,
Lisabeth
Hello Lizabeth,
You posted
QuoteGee I feel like my name is mud around here.
That's not true and I'm sure other people here will tell you so too.
We are just concerned about you and your family.
I check the site daily and look to see if you have been here.
I've been thinking and praying for you Veronica and the kids allot.
QuoteI really want this marriage to work, and I am thankful that I have a wife like Veronica, who is at least making attempts to understand, even though I know this is so hard for her.
That a girl Lizabeth. I think Veronica is a great SO. The fact that she is willing to learn as much as she can about you by join Susan's show how much she really cares and loves you. I have enjoyed talking to her here and feel that she has gained some new friend, one of them being me.
Do try shopping for bargains; it really help's when you are on a tight budget.
Love Your TG Sis
:)
Jillieann
I'll chime in on that Lisabeth, your name is not mud. I've not thought anything negative about you at all through this whole discourse. I was concerned that there might be a problem that you weren't dealing with. It seems, however, that you are dealing with it and I'm glad to see it.
I've also been concerned about Veronica's terminology and the effect it might have on you and your efforts.
Keep working things out.
Dennis
Mud... no I did not use that word at all. I do not feel ill feelings about you either. I was and continue to be concerned for your relationship with Veronica. It will take nothing short of returning the glasses to make it right with her. She has stated that. She has said she asked you to return them and that you refuse. Your blanket statement what ever it takes is what got you in this spot your in. She has told you what it would take and you refuse to do what it will take. Your word is at stake here. Your chance to build back trust is at stake. That is what my comment was about Your keeping your word.
It may seem thick on my part but I never considered returning the glasses as one of the options at the time that I said that. I was hoping I could make it up to her in some other way.
I don't think it is up to you to decide what it is she's willing to accept as "I will make this up to her no matter what it takes." Is carried out. Your blanket statement took care of you having a choice in the matter.
I am glad you have another appointment jointly with the therapist. I hope you both voice these and other issues openly at that time and have help with them. I'm also glad to read in the post that Veronica has agreed to your time needed for letting Lisabeth out in the open and breath and live freely from time to time.
I am sorry if stating what should be obvious was hurtful. None of what I say is ment to hurt only make someone think. To help them make a step in the right direction for the better in the relationship.
I too agree with Dennis, I've also been concerned about Veronica's terminology and the effect it might have on you and your efforts. And have posted on these remarks. From Veronica's reply post though it is to no avail. She continues to bring up and use these hurtful choices in wording. I realize she is hurting and can't heal till you solve the sunglasses issues. How ever the continueing in treating you like a child by taking your belongings and justifieing it as she does is not helping you be able to feel good about Lisabeth either and can have some rebounding results that will cause regret and guilt in the long run for you. Possibly her too. You have so much else to continue to work through but seem stuck in limbo at this issue. If she can't get past these using positive remarks to ehlpher through it will truely be hard. I am concerned in this respect for you both moving forword can't come if you can't leave old baggage behind and not look back.
I was glad to see some possitive compliments about you in her post. the were looking and remembering the past though not something from the present.
lisabeth can also be kind and loving and funny with a sense of humor -a sense of humor is what i remember most when we first met over 11 years ago. Color choice is for green and growing. It's a start.
Lisabeth copie out the possitive statements from Veronica's post only those and read them over often so you see they are important and can be impacted more. The rest of the post don't read as much when you need a pick me up. Only take your copy out and read over what it is she finds good about you abd says so. only the supportive parts of your Lisabeth side, like being able to allow you time to dress when the kids are away. Things like that.
Both of you keep your chins up and eye on the end result you both want.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Lisabeth,
No your name is not mud. I was and continue to be somewhat disappointed. I still think you should take the glasses back. You said you would do whatever it takes. You have talked the talk, it is time to walk the walk. If you do not do this it will remain a wedge between the two of you. I know of what I speak and am concerned for you and your spouse. I hope you will reconsider and do what in your heart you know is the right thing.
Cassie
Welcome to Susan's, Veronica. Just to come here shows that you are willing to communicate. My wife is very supportive of my crossdressing but has never posted here. (Although I am not one of the most active posters, I have been visiting here for about eight years.)
You and Lizabeth are both in my prayers. Just remember that, while communication is necessary, patience and compassion are also important to sustain your relationship. Hugs to both of you.
Hey Lisabeth,
Some of the comments maybe considered a little harsh but I think you will find that it was because people cared for both of you. It is very good to hear both sides. I hope that you and Veronica get through this because it is obvious with both your posts that you both care deeply for each other.
Good luck to you both and hang in there.
Shelley
HI Veronica,
I hope you and Lisabeth are doing better and making head way. I looked at the calendar and realized this was the day of your next joint therapy. Just wanted to say hope it goes well for you both.
I was also glad to hear from Lisabeth that she had agreed to take back the glasses and you and her were going shopping for somae together. I think think that's a step in a positive direction.
I also wanted to ask how are you doing? I mean this has to be a real shock with all that is transpiring with lisabeth. Are you ok with the interest in HRT?
Smiles,
Peggiann
hello,
i just wanted to update you all on "our" progress. i feel the therapy session went well
and is the beginning for us, on what i hope will be a journey "together". lisabeth and i are
so great together -we always have been. we need to reconnect and keep the lines of
communication open with trust and compassion for one another.
a day at a time... :) veronica
p.s. i am unaware of any interest in hrt????
Glad to hear your sessions are going well. How's your painting progressing? I'd love to see your work maybe you could take a picture of it and put it on Susan's for us to see.
How are your kids doing through all this. I realize you haven't told them about thee dressing, but they usually can tell when there is stress between parents. I hope they are able to share with you that they feel bad when you and Lisabeth do. They need to be able to do this.
We have a grandbaby that took his first steps on Christmas Eve. and is now walking everywhere. He is 10 1/2 months now. Well see him again on his birthday March 8th. Party will be on the 4th because the 8th is in the middle of the week. I can hardly wait to play with him again. They live about 7 hours away.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Hi Veronica,
That great news about your session.
I also hope and pray that lizabeth and you can contuine this Journey together.
Yes keep communicating.
Hugs for Both of you.
:)
Jillieann
Hey Peggian,
Just a bit of information. Not all of us are interested in HRT. That was a fear that my wife had and when I explained to her that I was happy with where I am things settled a lot.
To Veronica,
Great to hear things are progressing well. Thanks for keeping us informed because we worry a bit when we don't hear.
I really have some positive vibes coming from you two. It's obvious there's a lot of love there.
Good luck Shelley
Shelley,
I realize not all are interested in HRT. But I brought it up as a SO supporting another SO who partner was interested and curious about it. Lisabeth had posted a new topic on it and I was just inquiring as to her feelings. Otherwise I wouldn't have offered the comment.
Smiles,
Peggiann
Hi everyone,
Yes, I did post a topic on HRT at the end of November. I was curious about it at the time, and was wondering what it was like. After reading several posts from Terri-Ann, I realized for me at least, that the risks outweighed the benefits. Terri-Ann pointed out that you really have to feel like living in your born male gender would be just so unbearable that you really had no choice but to go through with HRT. After doing some soul searching, I realized that I'm just not at that point. I do feel like a woman on the inside, and don't need female clothes to feel that way, but I still feel like I can live as both male and female and still be fairly satisfied. I am going to start seeing another therapist that specializes in TG issues, and may join a support group that the initial counselor suggested. Veronica is willing to give me some time each month to explore my feminine side. The support group meetings would be an opportunity to do just that. I also talked to her about returning the glasses if she can help me find a less expensive pair that works with my face shape and wig styles. We will probably do that together in the next couple of weeks sometime. We had a productive appointment together at the therapist, so I think we are heading in the right direction. It feels good to be able to talk to my wife about my feelings. I know she is not crazy about any of this, but I am so proud of her for trying to understand. It means so much to me to be able to share that side of me. I think most of you know how nice that must be. I'm feeling very fortunate at this point to be with Veronica, and to be moving forward together. We are both learning a lot about ourselves. Talk to you all soon!
Love
Lisabeth
*smiles softly from the shadows.*
Good luck to you both.
Hugs Shelley
LIsabeth: It sounds like things are moving in the right direction - I am happy for both of you.
I wish you both continued success - keep us posted on how life is going.
Molly
Its great news to hear that things are working out for you both.
Take Care and move in step with each other.
Kate