How often does it happen that someone detransitions after having undergone GRS ?
What are options for these people after they make that decision ?
Just curious .
Non op myself .
I respect detransitioning people , it just interests me .
PS : no intention of ever detransitioning myself :)
Mod Edit - TOS 2 If you have issues without moderation is done please take it up with the admins. See TOS 20.
Really curious to hear stories :)
Honestly if this person make it to SRS and had all requirements including physchologist writing on paper that it is the right decision for her to undergo SRS then there is something wrong.. One should get SRS only when she is 100% sure that it is the right thing to do. This is why it is so long to meet criterias. I have seen someone detransition a year after SRS on ->-bleeped-<- but that looked like a troll.
Well , I respect everyone's decision as long as they're happy :)
It caught my attention after reading Walt Heyer's story .
He lived eight years as Laura Jensen and then detransitioned to Walt Heyer again 6 years after GRS / SRS .
I just wondered if it was really exceptional or quite frequent .
I'm guessing it's quite rare.
What The Media Should Know About Walt Heyer And "Transition Regrets"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/02/what-the-media-should-know-about-walt-heyer-and/203855
Media Matters/ June 2, 2015 5:41 PM EDT ››› CARLOS MAZA
"A popular right-wing activist with extreme, discredited views about LGBT people is making the media rounds to talk about Caitlyn Jenner, peddling the myth that many transgender people end up regretting transitioning.
Walt Heyer, contributor for the rabidly anti-LGBT web magazine The Federalist, appeared on the June 2 edition of CNN Newsroom to comment on Vanity Fair's cover story about Caitlyn Jenner's decision to publicly identify as a transgender woman."
It happens. There are a few famous cases, even. This is why I think that proper evaluation and mental health assessment is important and irreversible surgery is not something to be taken lightly or done on a whim.
Most of the cases are people who could not deal with life as a woman. Either it's not everything it was cracked up to be or they couldn't deal with discrimination and other issues. This is also why I believe that RLT while not perfect is an important pre-requisite for SRS since it's basically a trial period before you commit to something irreversible.
From my reading, another thing that happens is that they have other issues besides being trans, and those issues weren't dealt with. Things like clinical depression, BPD, etc. So transitioning didn't solve their issues like they thought it would.
Not sure about how often it happens after SRS, but I think I read time ago that about 1% or maybe 2% of trans* folks (mtf and ftm people) were changing their gender (legally detransitioning) back to their assigned at birth one. So you would need to extrapolate it to the percentage of all transgenders who are doing not just HRT but GCS too.
I noticed some coinciding facts in all mtf detransition stories I've read about:
- Most transitions started after late twenties.
- They all had therapy, counseling and real life experience before going onto GCS.
- Poor response to T after detransition: dysphoria usually triggered again by T shots, had to decrease their dosages, spread them or even almost halt completely HRT. Some of them even said low E dosages worked better.
- Poor social adjustment: not passing, harassment, very few or no romantic relationships at all, etc.
- Insecurities about ther desired gender perfomance, unrealistic expectations.
- Most still struggling at some degree with gender identity issues after detransitioning.
I think in those cases adjustment difficulties (abuse, insecurity about appearance, social anxiety) bring more distress than dysphoria itself therefore they expected to solve those issues after GCS or even expected GCS to solve them somehow.
If you ask me I would say that a "worst case scenario" should be taken into account before doing most irreversible procedures. Transition sometimes comes at a high price, and it can outweigh dysphoria. It's not always feasible to obtain the ideal result we all want. Furthermore, transition doesn't guarantee happiness, social success nor romantic success. It just can fix some physical issues to a realistic extent.
But after all some would just know after doing all the thing.
Go the the detransitioning section. There are a couple in there.
It's very rare.
Jen
Quote from: MtFGenderQueer on January 12, 2016, 07:10:42 PM
Well , I respect everyone's decision as long as they're happy :)
It caught my attention after reading Walt Heyer's story .
He lived eight years as Laura Jensen and then detransitioned to Walt Heyer again 6 years after GRS / SRS .
I just wondered if it was really exceptional or quite frequent .
It's very much the exception and very rare after SRS, transition saved my life, I've now lived over half my life as a woman, than I did in my previous life, 30th anniversary of my SRS last year, absolutely no regrets.
I know of a transwoman who lives in my town who had to detransition. I have never met this person so all I have are stories. Apparently they went all the way through transitioning and had reassignment but was forced to stop taking oestrogen after some medical thing happened ( I am guessing a liver problem maybe). I really feel sorry for this lady. From what I hear, she was really pretty too.
Quote from: DanielleA on January 13, 2016, 06:21:46 PM
I know of a transwoman who lives in my town who had to detransition. I have never met this person so all I have are stories. Apparently they went all the way through transitioning and had reassignment but was forced to stop taking oestrogen after some medical thing happened ( I am guessing a liver problem maybe). I really feel sorry for this lady. From what I hear, she was really pretty too.
A good friend of mine had doctors who were opposed to gender transition tell her she had to stop because of liver problems. It was a lie. I had a doctor at a world renound hospital yell at me that they were going to put me on testosterone and I would not transition further. I left and never went back.
If you find that person, talk with them. If they want a second opinion, I will pay for them to have it. Just PM me the clinic information.
I am the endocrine expert at a fortune 100 company and I know of NO,as in any reason a person would medically have to stop estrogen.
That really upsets me.
Jennifer
There was someone that used to be a member here who stated that she had SRS to make it easier for her to have access to HRT??? She was very depressed and complained that she was bullied into SRS by her doctors and therapists. Unfortunately people lie to get the treatment they "think" they need, and they manipulate the system, but the only people they are hurting are themselves.
I think some people place too much trust in doctors. They are just people, with all the good and bad than any others have. Having a medical degree doesn't make you an infallible angel.
If I had to I'd lie to get SRS, and if it I regretted it I'd blame no one but myself. And maybe not even myself, because sometimes you get into situations where there's no good choice. Life's like that sometimes.
I've had doctors lie to me a number of times, and I've more than returned the favor since. These days I always judge the risk and benefits when I speak to doctors to decide what to tell them. I'm still alive, so it seems to be working so far.
Yes it does happen. I've heard testimony to that to state of Maryland Senate hearings on the 'Bath-Room Bill' by the loyal opposition. A pair of VERY angry people "Duped" into transitioning.
Rare, Yes
Misled, misguided, or otherwise told "It is a 'Cure' for your ills" Yes
Showcased, Yes :(
QuoteHow often does it happen that someone detransitions after having undergone GRS ?
What are options for these people after they make that decision ?
I recently watched a documentary about some trans in Canada. One was M-F who reverted after a severe illness. I have no idea what the illness was though.
The best known case in the UK was Charles Kane, previously Samantha Kane, previously Sam Hashimi who underwent a full surgical MtF transition followed by a full surgical FtM detransition. The following article gives more detail (it is from a few years ago so the language used is rather sensationalist but the Daily Mail tends to be quite trans-friendly nowadays):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html
I also have a feeling that one or two of Russell Reid's (discredited UK gender specialist) patients may have detransitioned too but couldn't find any corroborative evidence of this. Certainly, a number of his patients lodged complaints that they had been put on the path to transition too easily.
There have also been some who were given SRS as infants, due to being born intersex or, in one case, having their penis destroyed during circumcision. However, I don't consider them to be trans as they were never given the opportunity to decide. It was just imposed on them. In some cases of intersex, the right choice was made and in others, wrong. At that stage it's not possible to determine how someone will identify.
Incidentally, the one with the destroyed penis tried to revert back to male and even got married, but eventually committed suicide. SRS is not something to be taken lightly.
A few unhappy campers to consider. Some sane....some, not so much.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)
Quote from: aaajjj55 on March 03, 2017, 11:13:09 AMI also have a feeling that one or two of Russell Reid's (discredited UK gender specialist) patients may have detransitioned too but couldn't find any corroborative evidence of this. Certainly, a number of his patients lodged complaints that they had been put on the path to transition too easily.
It's sad when people don't take responsibility for their own actions and instead blame others for their own mistakes. Very immature and selfish, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: jentay1367 on March 03, 2017, 04:37:55 PM
A few unhappy campers to consider. Some sane....some, not so much.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)
I dont know why i lurk on the de-transition page. It gives me an uneasy and really not good feeling. Like i am being sucked out of my real space. Granted thats because i trie d a de-transition myself and it sucked and obviously wasnt meant for me at all. To those who do de-transition, and are happy with who they are they deserve a lot of respect and shame on anyone who shames them.
Now that i got my little rant that is not related or directed to the person or article i am quoteing (it was just a rant of my mind) i will say a few things. Walt Heyer is a big man-baby, Sam Kane needs help for more issues then gender, Danielle Bunten Berry is frigging awesome all the way even if her transition may have not been totally approprate for her remains a debate and Rene Richards never had any regrets on her surgery. As Jentay said and I agree 100%, some sane. Some not
Quote from: DanielleA on January 13, 2016, 06:21:46 PM
I know of a transwoman who lives in my town who had to detransition. I have never met this person so all I have are stories. Apparently they went all the way through transitioning and had reassignment but was forced to stop taking oestrogen after some medical thing happened ( I am guessing a liver problem maybe). I really feel sorry for this lady. From what I hear, she was really pretty too.
Michael/Megan/Michael Wallent had a similar situation with respect to hormones.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_Wallent
As a libertarian, I completely disagree with the notion of RLE and getting "permission" from two psychiatrists to receive surgery.
The act of violating a patient's right of autonomy due to a handful of people suffering from regret is egregious at best and a complete failure in medical ethics at its worst.
I can understand the WPATH SOC for children or people incapable of making their own decisions, but consenting adults? No. For that section of the SOC, it should have two and only two questions:
1. Is the patient autonomous? (In medical practice, autonomy is expressed as the right of competent adults to make informed decisions about their own medical care)
2. Is the patient making an informed decision?
If both these questions are yes, no medical professional may violate a patient's autonomy and paternalistically deny treatment.
An autonomous adult is responsible for their own choices. That is what legal release forms are for: to protect practitioners from legal liability from a patient's regret.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jentay1367 on March 03, 2017, 04:37:55 PM
A few unhappy campers to consider. Some sane....some, not so much.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)
Thanks for sharing that article. I hadn't seen it before and found it a very good read. It seems to me that those who are unable to transition socially are the ones who have the most difficulty.
It is really easy to be consumed by the physical aspects of transition (HRT, FFS, SRS, BA, etc). And while it's certainly important, one has to realize that being willing and able to socialize as a woman is also extremely important. A year ago, my therapist actually posed that question to me - if I would be willing, able, and happy to socialize as a woman (as women socialize with others differently than men).
I've had a very successful social transition already, so there's no doubt in my mind now about the path I'm taking. But back before I started my transition, I actually spent a lot of time in this Detransition subforum, reading every post going back several years. I wanted to be absolutely sure that what I was doing was the right decision.
Some seem to get wrapped in the fantasy. They become their own paraphilia. Given that proclivity, it seems they're inevitably doomed to disappointment. The fantasy dies with their inability to go back and forth between gender expression.
I'm only comfortable in the female role .......and that's regardless of attire. So once my path meets its destination, I know there will be no regrets. I think if you only function and feel or act female if you're dressed in feminine stereotypical garb, you may just find yourself in deep regret after the newness all wears off. It should set off alarms. If there were no difference in mens or womens clothing, I'd still need to transition. Certainly this is something to explore through some introspection if one hasn't already. As has been pointed out, it rarely occurs. But it does happen. And that is simply tragic.
Quote from: jentay1367 on March 04, 2017, 01:50:41 PM
Some seem to get wrapped in the fantasy. They become their own paraphilia. Given that proclivity, it seems they're inevitably doomed to disappointment. The fantasy dies with their inability to go back and forth between gender expression.
I'm only comfortable in the female role .......and that's regardless of attire. So once my path meets its destination, I know there will be no regrets. I think if you only function and feel or act female if you're dressed in feminine stereotypical garb, you may just find yourself in deep regret after the newness all wears off. It should set off alarms. If there were no difference in mens or womens clothing, I'd still need to transition. Certainly this is something to explore through some introspection if one hasn't already. As has been pointed out, it rarely occurs. But it does happen. And that is simply tragic.
Again you and Mirya hit the nail on the head. Clothing , though is helpful in helping one sort out an idenitify as a specific gender it should be noted that there are more important things and that clothing and certian likes do not make someone transsexual. The social aspect is just as important as the hormones in my opinion. I think there are people out there who do not fit masculine cis-man or feminine cis- woman but should not make a full transition, Which is why I am really happy that there is a growing amount of information on non-binary idenities. I think people pigeon hold themselves with labeling certian likes with one gender or the other and start thinking too binary but as noted they can not handle the other side.
Quote from: aaajjj55 on March 03, 2017, 11:13:09 AM
The best known case in the UK was Charles Kane, previously Samantha Kane, previously Sam Hashimi who underwent a full surgical MtF transition followed by a full surgical FtM detransition. The following article gives more detail (it is from a few years ago so the language used is rather sensationalist but the Daily Mail tends to be quite trans-friendly nowadays):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html
I also have a feeling that one or two of Russell Reid's (discredited UK gender specialist) patients may have detransitioned too but couldn't find any corroborative evidence of this. Certainly, a number of his patients lodged complaints that they had been put on the path to transition too easily.
Interesting article in the UK Daily Mail today. Charles Kane, Formerly Samantha Kane, Formerly Sam Hashimi has transitioned for a
third time and is now Sam Kane (female):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4369636/The-London-lawyer-s-changed-gender-THREE-times.html
This obviously raises the question about whether some people require protecting from themselves. One could argue that Sam(x2)/Charles/Samantha had the financial resources and took each decision freely so it's no-one else's place to interfere. However, since joining this community, I have seen a number of individuals pass through who, possibly seduced by the spectacular before & afters and fuelled by an envy of their perception of femininity seem almost desperate to transition without giving consideration to whether their dysphoria is the root of their issues or a by-product of deeper seated issues and whether transition would resolve their problems or merely replace one set of problems with another. The big problem, of course, is when transition isn't the answer and individuals seek to blame others for the predicament they are in as a result.
Quote from: aaajjj55 on April 01, 2017, 10:02:18 AM
Interesting article in the UK Daily Mail today. Charles Kane, Formerly Samantha Kane, Formerly Sam Hashimi has transitioned for a third time and is now Sam Kane (female):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4369636/The-London-lawyer-s-changed-gender-THREE-times.html
This obviously raises the question about whether some people require protecting from themselves. One could argue that Sam(x2)/Charles/Samantha had the financial resources and took each decision freely so it's no-one else's place to interfere. However, since joining this community, I have seen a number of individuals pass through who, possibly seduced by the spectacular before & afters and fuelled by an envy of their perception of femininity seem almost desperate to transition without giving consideration to whether their dysphoria is the root of their issues or a by-product of deeper seated issues and whether transition would resolve their problems or merely replace one set of problems with another. The big problem, of course, is when transition isn't the answer and individuals seek to blame others for the predicament they are in as a result.
Tbh Im not too suprised in many ways. Most people who detransition find their way back to the trans life in one way or the other. I would wager to say only 1 out of 20 detransitions return to their old gender and live by restricted norms. The rest go non-binary or wind back on the full transition train.
A part of me wants to say screw her because of that transphobic crap she was spreading as a ''succsessful detransitoned man'' but another part of me knows she was and probably still is super insecure and needs help more then anything else. I think she needs to do some serious counselling and address all her issues. But still Ms.Kane. Nice to see ya back again!
In the early days of trying to figure out what was "wrong" with me I ran into one of Walt Heyer's websites. As a committed Christian I certainly wanted to see what he had to say once I found it. I must say that it set me back on my heels and gave me pause to really consider why I was moving through this in life. It caused me to spend a bunch of time looking for people with regret.
There seem to be those in articles linked in previous posts that are sensationalized but relatively few writings of average comments in a blog etc. What did appear as somewhat of a common thread in them was some sort of abuse in childhood. That they were running from their "man"ness for a deeply covered reason other than what is commonly thought of as transgender. Given the stresses we all face through transition this covering cracks, whether in therapy or not and they realize what the real issue was all along.
I don't want to paint with too broad a brush but it made sense to me in many of the cases. I think another grouping came from "informed consent" channels where the person was never in therapy or RLE or whatever that may have brought things to the surface earlier in the process.
I know everyone has different opinions on these topics but in the end I had to look at many other "lifetime" commitments we make and there stats are far worse than those who transition and later choose to go back. I think the crap we struggle through weeds out folks along the way any way you slice it.
Quote from: MtFGenderQueer on January 12, 2016, 06:22:28 PM
How often does it happen that someone detransitions after having undergone GRS ?
What are options for these people after they make that decision ?
Just curious .
Non op myself .
I respect detransitioning people , it just interests me .
PS : no intention of ever detransitioning myself :)
Mod Edit - TOS 2 If you have issues without moderation is done please take it up with the admins. See TOS 20.
I am an ex-FTM detransitioning after just about everything except bottom surgery: as in I got top surgery, was on hormones for a few years, and even got facial surgery to make myself appear more masculine (though I know this isn't as common as FFS). My guess is that SRS is mostly irreversible. For MTFs similar things to the phalloplasties that FTMs get is the only thing I could think of that might undo SRS, at least until lab-grown penises become a thing. For FTMs who have have phallo, I'm assuming removal of the surgically constructed phallus would be the first step, but no idea what would be done for meta.
In my case, in order to undo the damage I did getting top surgery, I got tissue expanders like breast cancer patients who have had mastectomies get. In a few months, I'll have the expanders removed and silicone implants put in. As to my face, if I ever have the money I'll probably fly to South Korea and get feminised!
My initial reasons for transitioning were genuine gender dysphoria, but only because, as a result of childhood sexual abuse, I'd developed DID and my "protector" alter was male and became the dominant identity after years and years of sexual abuse. As soon as I was out of that abusive situation and started getting therapy to address the abuse, I instantly knew what a huge mistake transitioning was and after stopping hormones as an "experiment" and spending a few months in denial, I finally told my gender therapist that I wanted to detransition. They didn't want me to jump into medically detransitioning, but it was important to me to take my femaleness back and looking at my flat chest made me want to cry. It was as bad or worse than my initial dysphoria. I still experience intense feelings of disgust when I see how much my face was changed by T and when I have to shave my beard in the morning, but it has been getting better with time.
Quote from: 2.B.Dana on April 02, 2017, 08:51:33 AMI think another grouping came from "informed consent" channels where the person was never in therapy or RLE or whatever that may have brought things to the surface earlier in the process.
I know everyone has different opinions on these topics but in the end I had to look at many other "lifetime" commitments we make and there stats are far worse than those who transition and later choose to go back. I think the crap we struggle through weeds out folks along the way any way you slice it.
I was one of those idiots who went the informed consent path, 100% convinced that I was male and needed to be on T to survive, and here I am several years and many $1000s of dollars later with fake tits and a voice that never passes for female on the phone. I think gender therapy is a MUST for anyone who is considering transition and therapy to address sexual trauma before transition is also important. If my sexual trauma had been addressed, I never would have felt so alienated from my femaleness. Also, I think that 18 year old kids who haven't spent a year living as their target gender should really consider waiting. I started hormones as soon as possible and I may not be able to have kids now for all I know. Even when I was 20 I thought I hated kids and never wanted to reproduce, but now at 22 I realise what a massive mistake it was and if I ever do have kids it breaks my heart that I won't be able to breastfeed them. I now experience dysphoria (if that's the correct term for it considering I have two X chromosomes) because I don't pass as female enough. Though I've always been butch, I now have to actually take the trouble of applying make-up and dressing femininely just so I won't be misgendered.
It really sucks that there need to be gatekeepers, but they're there for a reason! Even if I'm just a part of a very small minority (I don't think it is as small as people would have you believe: just in my "transitioning class"-- the group of FTMs I knew from the trans group at the local LGBT center, who I knew in high school and who all started transitioning at about the same time-- I personally know of
7 FTMs (including myself) who are now detransitioning. Maybe my city is unusual in that regard, but I think in the coming years we're going to see a lot of FTM detransitioners who had unaddressed sexual trauma. 3 of us in the detransitioning group were sexually abused and I haven't asked about abuse or been told anything by the others. Though, to be fair, 4/7 of us now identify as some kind of nonbinary rather than as cis females. Interestingly, I don't of know a single MTF from the trans group that has detransitioned, so I suspect it may be different for FTMs and MTFs. FTMs don't really have as much trouble passing after a few years on T, so I don't think that failure to pass is really the reason most FTMs wind up detransitioning. My suspicion would be that a lot of us have been sexually abused or faced some sort of sexual trauma; after all RAINN says that 1 in 6 women have been victims of rape.
Being disowned by my own mother wasn't enough to stop me from starting T and getting top surgery, so I think that transphobia isn't an adequate alternative to therapy before taking the plunge and starting HRT. But, that's just my opinion.
Im so sorry you had to go through all that Sebster. I am MtF, and thought for a while maybe I am not truly trans due to loads of abuses and stuff.. I even tried a detransition myself... I personally couldnt do it at all, big time and quickly. My therpaist ruled out DID (as in didnt have) and found that my safest place was to be as ''male'' as possible as a kid. I would say i tried and acted a game to be that ''guy'', but it was just a game. I am very sorry you had to endure a lot of hurt past and present and I hope that whatever path you may choose, you do it for you!
Hugs-Ashley
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on May 08, 2017, 09:19:05 PM
Im so sorry you had to go through all that Sebster. I am MtF, and thought for a while maybe I am not truly trans due to loads of abuses and stuff.. I even tried a detransition myself... I personally couldnt do it at all, big time and quickly. My therpaist ruled out DID (as in didnt have) and found that my safest place was to be as ''male'' as possible. I would say i tried and acted a game to be that ''guy'', but it was just a game. I am very sorry you had to endure a lot of hurt past and present and I hope that whatever path you may choose, you do it for you!
Hugs-Ashley
I'm sorry you experienced abuse too and I'm glad that you now know you're not just transitioning because of trauma but are living as your authentic self! I wish you the best too! :)
Quote from: sebster on May 08, 2017, 09:27:40 PM
I'm sorry you experienced abuse too and I'm glad that you now know you're not just transitioning because of trauma but are living as your authentic self! I wish you the best too! :)
Thank you its been quite the struggle, and I am still sorting out all the wrinkles of my past. Its hard, but hey atl;east we got this great support site eh :). I hope that you are being able to sort your things out rightly and have a support group of your own close to you and in-life! Hopefully they are, or most of them are not judgemental and are warm and a safe place. Hey, if you ever wana talk and just get things off your chest I am one PM away :)!, dont struggle alone <3
-Ashley
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on May 08, 2017, 09:32:49 PM
Thank you its been quite the struggle, and I am still sorting out all the wrinkles of my past. Its hard, but hey atl;east we got this great support site eh :). I hope that you are being able to sort your things out rightly and have a support group of your own close to you and in-life! Hopefully they are, or most of them are not judgemental and are warm and a safe place. Hey, if you ever wana talk and just get things off your chest I am one PM away :)!, dont struggle alone <3
-Ashley
Same to you! Honestly, PM me any time. I'll probably be really slow about replying since I only come here every few months when I have burning questions that I need answered, but I'll get back to you eventually. XD
<3