So...my wife just sent me this. I'm at a total loss of words...
I have a question for you, and want your thoughts on something. You know I was raised in the church, believe in God wholeheartedly and I'm wondering how He fits into your being transgender? God gave us our bodies, He chose them for us for a reason. Do you think He made a mistake? Do you really believe He wanted you to be a woman? I am struggling because I don't think He did make a mistake. He meant for you to be a man as He meant for me to be a woman and to marry a man and procreate in His image. How does that fit in with your feelings of TG? I wonder if you're denying Him His chosen path for you? You were meant to play that fiddle, would you be willing to give that up to be a woman? The son He gave us has a path too...do you feel you're being transgender would alter Wyatt being the man he needs to be for God...for his future wife and children?
This really just took the wind out of my sail.
Katie
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Katie,
I'm at a loss for words and so sorry... Your wife seems to be a very selfish person who uses God as an excuse for things she cannot control and with that attitude makes the life of loved ones even more miserable that it already is...
Love
-J
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Hey katie
Yes God gave you your body and so did he mine but,there is a catch!
God does not always make everything perfect he sometimes makes things and people different. Some people just can't wrap their head around being trans I was told I have a demon in me by one person. Another person told me I must lie it at Gods feet well I did and my feeling did not go away. I got upset even more because why don't it go away and got upset with God because of this. Why would God allow some of his children to have cancer and die of it. Why would he let someone be born withou limbs or intersex. Is it then a crual joke. I felt cheated by God I lost a perfect life. Then people want to tell me I chose it. Really who in there right mind will choose it. I think to God gender is nothing God does not see gender like humans do.
Katie,
I can only speak to my truth. My wife asked me a similar (perhaps less pointedly) question. I said that I don't think God made a mistake. I think we as humans don't understand things the way God does. I think this is a journey I was meant to take. I am not happy about it at times. However; I would like to think some good will come out of it for others and eventually myself.
I also know if I am following my religion's belief, he is a forgiving entity and will forgive any mistakes I make on that journey.
Don't know if this helps at all but it is something I have wrestled with off and on for the past year or so.
Good luck,
Joanna
God does not just make our bodies. He makes our minds too. Gender is a function of the mind, not of the genitals. God made you with the mind of a woman. Did He make a mistake there? I think not.
It is hard enough to understand God's plan for ourselves. It is more than a bit arrogant for someone to think that they understand His plan for someone else. The "God makes no mistakes" argument against transgender people is doing just that. The counter argument is: Yes, God makes no mistakes. He made me transgender, and that was not a mistake.
This argument is rather weak. I don't think god picked our bodies. If god picked our bodies, there wouldn't be birth defects of which being transgender is one. Consider thalidomide and all the damage it cause. The drug was made by man and god had nothing to do with the many birth defects it cause. Differences happen naturally.
Should you correct an issue? Consider a child with a cleft lip. It can be life threatening if left uncorrected. The surgical procedure to correct it is simple and many children have gone on to live normal lives with a simple surgery. Other surgeries exist to correct other birth defects so a child can go on to live a healthy normal life. I think it would be crude to deny anyone medical help to correct a defect that existed from birth.
I think a loving god would appreciate the effort we supply to make our life better as long as it isn't at the expense of another. To transition we have to face many difficulties and doing so makes a stronger and better person. I would think a god would prefer the "after" than the before.
I don't blame god for anything that happened in my life. Yes, I was given a difficult hand of cards to play but I don't blame god for that. I have grown into a far better person than I would have been without treatment and man not god put the obstacles before me in life. Some of the difficulties were of my own making. I was given the potential and the spirit to make myself a better person. I credit god for that but not for the difficulties in life.
If God doesn't make mistakes then we can disband the medical profession. Deadly germs and viruses are part of his plan too as well as cellular mutations leading to cancer. Interfering in their natural progression is a repudiation of God's creation.
See how that works?
Sapere Aude
If one posits the existence of an omniscient and all powerful god then they must also conclude that the deity planned on you as a person graced with being transgender.
They can't have it both ways by saying we have choice in a closed system. Not that the laws of thermodynamics apply to supernatural beliefs.
People are born every day needing the basic and human created tools and assistance to even breathe. Should we just let gods will be done and let them die?
We perform millions of surgeries to save lives and correct birth problems such as cleft lip/palate. Many of us consider being transgender a birth deformity we plan to correct.
In the final analysis if their version of a god is so judgemental, discriminatory and capricious why bother? It is always possible to find a hateful bible verse to throw our way and who really cares how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I far prefer the real world and the science to help us understand it.
God seems to have made plenty of mistakes, and admits as much when tossing Adam and Eve out of Eden, or deciding to kill all of humanity and creation except x2 of each species In a flood, etc. if people are going to throw spurious religious arguments in your face then toss some back.
Using God as bases for an argument to stop you is rather ludicrous because Gods love is unfathomable ,unconditional , limitless and all embracing.
As always, thank all you wonderful women for your insight, empathy, advice, and knowledge. I am most grateful for the responses, and they helped me clarify my thoughts and send the following response:
Gallations 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
I have a question for you, and want your thoughts on something. You know I was raised in the church, believe in God wholeheartedly and I'm wondering how He fits into your being transgender?
He doesn't "fit in to my being trans." I struggle to understand how me being trans is part of His plan, but it is. I know His love is unfathomable, unconditional, and all-embracing. I doubt God sees gender at all, since it is merely a social construct.
If our society were one in which the outward appearances betwixt the two sexes was the same, would being trans be any big deal?
God gave us our bodies, And our brains. He chose them for us for a reason. Do you think He made a mistake?
I don't. Do you think viruses, or cancer, or birth defects are His mistakes?
Do you really believe He wanted you to be a woman?
I know he wants me to be honest.
I am struggling because I don't think He did make a mistake. He meant for you to be a man Really? How do you know? as He meant for me to be a woman and to marry a man and procreate in His image.
Which we did.
How does that fit in with your feelings of TG? Unfortunate. I wonder if you're denying Him His chosen path for you?I feel quite the contrary, I have finally admitted that I must explore something that has always been a fundamental part of me, something that I have denied, but is as present as the nose on my face. You were meant to play that fiddle, would you be willing to give that up to be a woman? Why would I have to give up music? The son He gave us has a path too...do you feel you're being transgender would alter Wyatt being the man he needs to be for God
If anything, for the better. He won't grow up with ignorance and negative stereotypes.
...for his future wife and children? I have no idea how my being trans has anything to do with Wyatt's wife and children.
Again, thank you all!
Katie
Katie, most of us lack the knowledge of theology to answer her questions. I wish my therapist who is also a Presbyterian minister (and post-op since 1995) were here to answer some of your wife's questions. However, retired Episcopalian Bishop Gene Robinson does a pretty good job in his Transgender Welcome which can be found here:
https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/15125721/TransFaith-report.pdf (https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/15125721/TransFaith-report.pdf)
Thanks BeverlyAnn
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When people lack common compassion and especially understanding, they reach into a hat and pull religion into it, especially the well worn, "God doesn't make mistakes" line.
I figure I was made this way by my Creator for a purpose He/She didn't share with me and He/She loves me just as much because He/She made me this way.
Love,
Clare
I'd ask your wife if she ever went to a doctor for anything, to fix any problems with that body God gave her...
I am late to the party. I am sorry is I am repeating someone else's sentiments. I did not read any of the comments. This question irritates me so much I had to reply. I promise I'll go back to the top and read what the rest of you all had to say.
I count myself as a follower of Jesus Christ. When I hear something like "God made you that way! Do you think God makes mistakes?" it really irks me.
When a baby is born with a cleft palate, do we say, " The child was born that way. God doesn't make mistakes! The child should just learn to live with its deformity."
If a newborn is discovered to have a congenital heart defect, do we, as Christians, say, "God made the baby that way. God doesn't make mistakes! Just let the let the child die."
We, as Christians, as compassionate human beings, do not do that!. We do whatever is in our power to correct the baby's deformity. We do what we can to save the baby's life.
What is going on with the "God doesn't make mistakes!" syndrome is that they are saying "You are responsible for what I think is wrong with you and I don't see why you can't or won't fix yourself because I think you should be able to and should get about doing it, now!"
Christians, most Christians, realize there is the ideal (as seen in the person of Jesus). Most Christians, also recognize that we do not live in an ideal world. Every Christian should recognize that none of us is perfect. All of us are flawed in one manner or fashion. Each in their own special way.
My ->-bleeped-<- goes back at least as far as I have memories to recall with. I suspect it is congenital. If it is, "Did God make a mistake?" I say, "No, He did not. He made me flawed just as He made each of us flawed. We are all flawed by His design. He made this way for a purpose. I do not know all the facets of that purpose. Maybe it is for me to have a challenge to overcome. Maybe it for me to learn to live with the flaw and depend on Him for my strength. On the other hand, just maybe, it is for you to learn to accept others, in spite of their flaws, and do the Christian thing, WWJD thing, by helping me with finding at least a tolerable, if not fulfilling life to live. When you stand before Him, will He agree you handled it all as well as you could have?"
For a Christian this life, less than ideal, in this world, less than ideal, should be viewed as a ticket to the hereafter. In this life, we are all flawed by design. It is up to us to learn this about ourselves and others and work toward making this life better for ourselves and others. I have spent most of sixty six years trying to change who it is that God made me. None of that effort did anything, in the end, to make anyone any happier.
Getting to the hereafter is not my job. Jesus already did the work. He punched my ticket! God, for Jesus' effort, on my behalf, has graciously granted the gift of the hereafter.
Stephanie Now I'll go back to the top and read what all of you had to say.
Thank you Stephanie
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As always, I'm really glad when I hear bigotry like this being dressed up in its Sunday best, that I get to dodge the entire religion question all together. Mad props for anyone who can successfully reconcile their religious beliefs and their gender identity, but I'm glad I don't have to do so.
If I were religious, which thank god I'm not, I would answer that god did it on purpose to test your wife, or perhaps help her grow into a better person. And she's failing miserably.
Quote from: sterusjon on January 26, 2016, 08:25:48 PM
My ->-bleeped-<- goes back at least as far as I have memories to recall with. I suspect it is congenital. If it is, "Did God make a mistake?" I say, "No, He did not. He made me flawed just as He made each of us flawed. We are all flawed by His design. He made this way for a purpose. I do not know all the facets of that purpose. Maybe it is for me to have a challenge to overcome. Maybe it for me to learn to live with the flaw and depend on Him for my strength. On the other hand, just maybe, it is for you to learn to accept others, in spite of their flaws, and do the Christian thing, WWJD thing, by helping me with finding at least a tolerable, if not fulfilling life to live. When you stand before Him, will He agree you handled it all as well as you could have?"
For a Christian this life, less than ideal, in this world, less than ideal, should be viewed as a ticket to the hereafter. In this life, we are all flawed by design. It is up to us to learn this about ourselves and others and work toward making this life better for ourselves and others. I have spent most of sixty six years trying to change who it is that God made me. None of that effort did anything, in the end, to make anyone any happier.
Getting to the hereafter is not my job. Jesus already did the work. He punched my ticket! God, for Jesus' effort, on my behalf, has graciously granted the gift of the hereafter.
Stephanie Now I'll go back to the top and read what all of you had to say.
Stephanie, I want to focus in on the last part of your message here. This is the essence of what it means to be a Christian (note to those of other faiths or non-faiths: I'm focusing on some inside baseball stuff here, but this is relevant to the OP, who is also a believer):
We are all saved by grace which is unmerited - we want to become better more loving people out of gratitude rather than to earn God's favor (or at least those of us who are sincere try to do but still often fail). We are all specially and wonderfully made in God's image - no exceptions. Some of us must endure physical disabilities (don't like that word but I'll live with it here) we were born with or acquired, but being transgender is not a defect or a problem (unless you consider a man's body for a woman a disability). I have other physical defects from DES, so maybe one could see being a woman in a man's body as somewhat connected to that, e.g. Just because cis people aren't made the way we are, doesn't invalidate the fact that we are made differently - and also wonderfully. It's hard to be trans (mainly I think because cis people are constantly trying to mold us into something we aren't, like a square peg into a round hole) but it is also awesome to have insights and understanding about life that cis people don't have.
AnomyMs - I like the way you put it, sadly, Mrs. Watergirl is so far failing the test. But I pray that she will have a change of heart and see that you are right about this (or at least your channeling being religious self is right about this).
Quote from: WaterGirl on January 26, 2016, 05:42:55 PM
As always, thank all you wonderful women for your insight, empathy, advice, and knowledge. I am most grateful for the responses, and they helped me clarify my thoughts and send the following response:
Gallations 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
I have a question for you, and want your thoughts on something. You know I was raised in the church, believe in God wholeheartedly and I'm wondering how He fits into your being transgender?
He doesn't "fit in to my being trans." I struggle to understand how me being trans is part of His plan, but it is. I know His love is unfathomable, unconditional, and all-embracing. I doubt God sees gender at all, since it is merely a social construct.
If our society were one in which the outward appearances betwixt the two sexes was the same, would being trans be any big deal?
God gave us our bodies, And our brains. He chose them for us for a reason. Do you think He made a mistake?
I don't. Do you think viruses, or cancer, or birth defects are His mistakes?
Do you really believe He wanted you to be a woman?
I know he wants me to be honest.
I am struggling because I don't think He did make a mistake. He meant for you to be a man Really? How do you know? as He meant for me to be a woman and to marry a man and procreate in His image.
Which we did.
How does that fit in with your feelings of TG? Unfortunate. I wonder if you're denying Him His chosen path for you?I feel quite the contrary, I have finally admitted that I must explore something that has always been a fundamental part of me, something that I have denied, but is as present as the nose on my face. You were meant to play that fiddle, would you be willing to give that up to be a woman? Why would I have to give up music? The son He gave us has a path too...do you feel you're being transgender would alter Wyatt being the man he needs to be for God
If anything, for the better. He won't grow up with ignorance and negative stereotypes.
...for his future wife and children? I have no idea how my being trans has anything to do with Wyatt's wife and children.
Again, thank you all!
Katie
Katie,
I think your response was awesome. You have not been confrontational and at no time have you belittled her.
Our Lives are defined by what we do not who we are.
Cheers
Sue
WaterGirl,
Just an acknowledgement of your PM. Thank you. (I do not have PM Sending privileges)
Stephanie
DenaliBe,
Thank you for the accurate amplification of my thoughts.
Stephanie
Dear Watergirl:
Hi:
Full Disclosure: I am not a religious person and do not recognize any deity, though there is much about life I don't understand and I have to deal with that daily, moment to moment.
You have raised a truly great and perplexing question that our community all to often is asked to answer: Are you as a creation of life a mistake? I'm going to respond with a bit rigor here, because I'm loath to entertain emotional pleadings of one sort or another that have little or no basis in fact.
Here's a true fact: There's absolutely no evidence that you or anyone else's creation was a mistake and we don't need to invoke god to have the discussion. Rather, you and all of the life are created via a set processes and inputs that occur having a certain level of repeatability and uncertainty. It is intellectually and morally abhorrent to assign correctness or mistakenness to the natural process of procreation in this context. It's far more honest to accept that some procreation outcomes occur more often than others and each outcome brings with it a set of unique circumstances even given the law of large numbers. Humanity has written volumes on this subject and yet we still struggle to separate fact from belief.
So it seems as a species we are not well suited to handle uncertainty, and thus, we have created many belief systems and explanation's to account for our discomfort from uncertainty. One aspect of these attempts to deal with uncertainty has been to give us a belief system that incorporates the existence of a supreme, omnipotent being. This particular aspect of the human beliefs typically involves surrendering critical thinking at some point in order to create a perceived order to our lives and purposes therein that currently escapes our abilities to reason and know. This surrender is often referred to as faith, and much of life and its creating seems to occur without any untoward consequences because of these beliefs. All in all, faith serves us well enough until of course it doesn't, and even just a quick review of history will verify that.
It is not surprising then that whenever a set of circumstances occurs out of the inherent uncertainty and lack of knowledge associated with creation and life itself, e.g. being a transgender person, many try to justify the veracity of their belief system with questions, answers and actions that aren't grounded in fact, rather in faith. This occurs for two fundamental reasons: 1) Attempting to maintain the belief system, and/or 2) Attempting to leverage the dissonance that the belief system is confronted with for some ulterior outcome. In either case it would be easy to make these people wrong, but I look in the mirror too often to seriously entertain that thought.
I deeply respect any and all people who hold religious and spiritual beliefs, even envy them at times; however, when a discussion such as the one here is viewed from the perspective noted above, then dealing with the uncertainties of creation and life become far more manageable . . . or at the least understandable, including the necessity to accept that sometimes we just don't know and aren't going to ever know. If this frightens and/or angers you, I am deeply sorry and offer hope and freedom from them by following a path of living that is largely based upon critical thinking, which doesn't require you to give up religion or faith. To the extent you embrace them try to understand where the line is drawn that you have to suspend critical thinking.
Fortunately, in your case we do know, and what we know leaves no doubt for the veracity and existence of you as a person that is whole and complete. You may stretch the current social boundaries here and there of society, but without a doubt the reality in time and space is that you are as you are and not a mistake. Any discussion that your creation was a mistake or some untoward physical or mental happenstance is pure balderdash. There is simply no credible evidence whatsoever that you as a trans-person are less than in some way or another, i.e. in a way that each and everyone of us aren't also subject to as a result of being a created through a series of a processes and inputs with a built in degree of uncertainty.
BOTTOM LINE: You are not a mistake. You are, however, a unique individual with a rare set of characteristics that makes you a unique and profoundly interesting creation. I say that also makes you beautiful, but then I'm just as committed to my beliefs as everyone else - what counts is what you think.
What you and society does about this is largely in your hands to judge, embrace and share as suits your desires, the results of which await your hand to guide your life to its fullest and most beautiful existence. Therefore, it seems ridiculous to suggest that the grandeur and complexity of who and what you are should be otherwise assigned the misleading and debilitating context of mistake, either by association or through your own self-degradation.
My dearest fellow human being and friend, you are everything you can be and in so doing become more precious and desirable.
Peace,
Rachel
Everyone tries to use god as a reason for condemning others who do not fit within their ideal image of the world. I really feel bad for these people as the day they must face god and answer for using his name to spread hate and fear will not be a good one.
If what they believe in was true then why would god want people to suffer their entire lives? These people have an answer for that as well, to be happy is to be selfish and that is against gods will. RUBBISH!
I have been told that because I am married with children that to transition is trading my happiness for my wifes happiness and that I should remember my vows, not transition, continue to live a life of misery so my spouse can be happy.
I feel strongly against this in that it is complete b.s. these people feel that I should never be allowed to be happy for the sake of someone elses happiness. I take issue with it because I do not want to trade my happiness for hers but they feel I should trade mine for hers. If she can find happiness staying with me that would be amazing, but if she needs to find her happiness elsewhere then she is free to do so.
In argument I used my moms 20 year marriage as an example, my step father was happy but my mother was not. Does that mean my mom should have remained unhappily ever after?
So I googled and was presented with a wealth of biblical rationalizations of why a spouse should suffer through unhappiness to give their spouse happiness because it is gods will.
I know this isn't gods will, again people like to use the name to justify their own weird sense of being, but if it truly was gods will, I for one will gladly look them in the face on my day of judgment and say go f yourself.
Spouses wouldn't be suffering through this anyway if the idiotic Churches accepted the reality of this and didn't convince so many of us that Jesus would cure it and we would live normal married lives. Jesus does not cure it and that lie is why so many don't accept their situation and do something about it before they have spouses that have to suffer for it. I lay responsibility for all that spousal suffering right on who it belongs, on the Church.
Sapere Aude