The 30-year fight for a federal gay civil rights law may fail because activists insist on including rights for transgendered people too. Has gay inclusiveness gone too far too fast?
By John Aravosis
Salon (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/10/08/lgbt/)
"I have a sense that over the past decade the trans revolution was imposed on the gay community from outside, or at least above, and thus it never stuck with a large number of gays who weren't running national organizations, weren't activists, or weren't living in liberal gay enclaves like San Francisco and New York. Sure, many of the rest of us accepted de facto that transgendered people were members of the community, but only because our leaders kept telling us it was so. A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman."
Karen
Karen,
Sounds like John Aravosis is not a caring person. I wonder why the L got included into the GB? Lesbians don't have anything in common with a gay person, only that they are both homosexuals. They don't have a penis and they really don't want one. Why would a gay person want anything to do with a Lesbian. To me, this logic is the same as his with GLB and the trans community. Or, maybe I just don't understand. Hmmm
Sheila
He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar. Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.
You both made good points.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 11:40:16 AM
He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar. Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.
Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.
I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it,
"We tend to get beat up by the same people."Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was,
"Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.
~Kate~
Our community needs to educate the 40% of the population that are already on our side and the 20% that can be swayed, given the right arguments, pronto. We must not waste any effort on the 40% that will never, ever believe us to be anything but sinful, subhuman abominations. We just have to learn to contain that segment and live with it.
The recent Oprah show had Oprah grooving on the statement by the trans-boy that he thought he was lesbian at first, and Oprah tried to tie TG to homosexuality. I hope that Dr. Bowers' statements undid some of that damage. Larry King reacted to a trans-woman who professed to like other women, and zoomed in on the 'gay' angle.
I'd like to see a TV show that compares trans-women with drag queens. But the DQs are in street clothes the whole time (or better yet, respectable business suits like Barney Frank wears!), and we only see their characters via video segments and/or photos they hold up. Maybe then a few (more) audience members will have that AHA! moment.
It will take a LOT of education.
Karen
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.
I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it, "We tend to get beat up by the same people."
Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.
In 1969, when Stonewall happened, there were very few opportunities for transsexuals to find or get treatment, so there's the possibility that some of the drag queens at the protests were actually TS.
At least some of the reasons we're all getting beat up is because of perceived gender transgressions, not who we're sleeping with.
I don't believe that whether or not T is included with GLB has much effect on the average person to understand who we are, they tend to confuse sexual orientation and gender identity regardless.
zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on October 08, 2007, 12:45:59 PM
they tend to confuse sexual orientation and gender identity regardless.
They do, but in fairness it DOES make sense at first blush. I don't really blame them for it or think they're trying to be mean. From the point of view of "normal" people, men like women and women like men, so if you like men... then you must really want to be a woman. And if you really, REALLY like men, you'll actually finish the job and have the surgery.
After the
"So you're gay?" question, the number two question I'm always asked is,
"So have you had the surgery yet?" Because of course the entire goal here is to have sex with men. I've tried to explain that SRS is only part of the process, that the social transition is much more important to me... but their eyes just glaze over. They don't get it.
Then you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.
It's naive, but there IS a logic to it all.
So now along comes ENDA which is getting national attention, lumping us all together as one "community," AND now getting attention because of the fight to KEEP us lumped together as sharing the same goals, and... that myth gets reinforced. That's the "education" I fear the public is getting.
~Kate~
Alright. Some education is in order here.
Today when people talk about drag queens they mean flamboyant stage performers. In 1969 the term "drag queen" meant exactly the following: "a crossdressing homosexual." This is the exact opposite in sexual orientation to the term "hetersexual crossdresser." The majority of drag queens at that time in history were what are today called "primary transsexuals." That means people who try out the gay label for awhile, find it doesn't fit, and transition to their true gender at a fairly young age. Those "drag queens" at Stonewall were very much us.
Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
...And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.
~Kate~
My favorite hero is SuperGay. I hear that in a couple of issues, he's going to be seduced by his arch enemy, the evil Naughty Nympho.
Quote from: Karen on October 08, 2007, 12:30:34 PM
Our community needs to educate the 40% of the population that are already on our side and the 20% that can be swayed, given the right arguments, pronto. We must not waste any effort on the 40% that will never, ever believe us to be anything but sinful, subhuman abominations. We just have to learn to contain that segment and live with it.
Karen
I wonder if I can convince them that I'm Uber-human? Hmmmmmm
I'd also like a chance to wear a lab coat and cut up some bigoted brains to find out what is happening in there. And I don't necessarily mean in the lab, or even while the subject is dead :P
Please help fund my research,
Rebis
Quote from: Jaynatopia on October 08, 2007, 03:45:11 PM
Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.
The author doesn't
want us to fight alongside him. He is ashamed to be seen in the same light with us.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 03:57:57 PM
Quote from: Jaynatopia on October 08, 2007, 03:45:11 PM
Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.
The author doesn't want us to fight alongside him. He is ashamed to be seen in the same light with us.
I have found similar attitudes out there among some Gay people. Lesbians too (and sometimes T people). There are some who are really disgusted, horrified, and ashamed to be associated with "flamboyant" or "out" people. It's another form of prejudice. Ghettoizing people they don't understand or accept.
I've been fortunate because the L & G's I've met have been accepting of anyone no matter who they are or how they express.
I thought we were all humans and not chickens. I don't want to be a part of a pecking order.
Feeling that gays and transsexuals have little in common doesn't mean one is bigoted or disapproving, IMHO.
In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 11:40:16 AM
He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar. Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.
Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.
I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it, "We tend to get beat up by the same people."
Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.
~Kate~
YES! YES! YES!
You are rocking lately dream dancer... :)
tink :icon_chick:
Initially, at snonewall, and even until the 90's, many many TS started in gay circles because lets face it, there was not much options, much confusion and little information.
In support groups around 90, many could be called drag queen, by the way they dressed and coming from the gay scene. In current support groups, I don't see that anymore, only the older TS 30 and over remain, most of the "gay TS" transition by 18 often doing DIY. They tend to stay away from support groups which have older TS.
So, initially, the T was legitimately tagged to the LGB because it was mostly the same crowd, now it may needs to be reassessed. Keeping it there, but also finding out why it should be there.
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 07:22:33 PM
In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.
I've heard that sort of thing before: "Some of my best friends are negroes."
The bottom line is this: There ARE differences between gays (drag queens) and transsexuals and anyone who thinks there aren't is just trying to cover the sun with one finger....
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 07:22:33 PM
Feeling that gays and transsexuals have little in common doesn't mean one is bigoted or disapproving, IMHO.
In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.
~Kate~
i'm gonna have to call you on that one, Kate. do
you think that author is "fine with transsexuals?" the whole tone of that article was transphobic!
-ell
Quote from: Ell on October 08, 2007, 09:22:27 PM
i'm gonna have to call you on that one, Kate. do you think that author is "fine with transsexuals?" the whole tone of that article was transphobic!
How is it?
I just re-read the whole thing. Aside from maybe the "cut off their penis" wise crack, I can't find anything remotely transphobic.
Instead, what I'm seeing more and more is a Bush-like
"you either support and agree with ME or you support the evil-doers" mentality from the TS community that's frankly beginning to concern me.
The tone I get from the article is:
1) Transsexuals and gays have little to nothing in common aside from being persecuted
2) ENDA *finally* has a change of passing if it's gay-only
3) Since we have so little in common, although he sympathizes for our fight, he can't in good conscious not seize this chance to get the rights the gay community has fought so long and hard for
That doesn't make him transphobic. That doesn't make him a bigot. That doesn't mean he's ashamed to be seen with us.
It just means he has a different opinion regarding how best to serve the gay community he belongs to.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 09:42:10 PM
How is it?
'How did the T get in LGBT?" (read: and what are they doing in
our group?)
"The 30-year fight for a federal gay civil rights law may fail because activists insist on including rights for transgendered people too. Has gay inclusiveness gone too far too fast?" (read: we should have dropped the Trans from
our group a long time ago.)
"Like an ever-expanding mushroom cloud of diversity, every few years America's gay leaders and activists welcome a new category of member to the community. (
Excuse me? as Lisbeth pointed out, Trans were founding members)
"adding T for transgender/transsexual. And that's when today's trouble started." (i don't see how that's not offensive)
but what what really gets to me is the sense that Trans are being pushed aside by a group that i have stood by and supported for so many years. the truth is, i'm just hurt by some of the remarks from the gay community.
T was in LBGT from the start.
Except people lumped T's as G's.
Gays to gain more right, kicked out, even
the TS who start in their community out of there because
they sensed they could gain more traction if the "weirdos"
were out.
While I don't doubt that many of the drag queens of Stonewall
were crossdressing gays with not a hint of gender confusion, a bigger contigent were "gay" T's before the word was even uttered (that comes from my presense in TS support group in the late 80's early 90's).
What I sense here is a rewriting of the history of the gay rights movement to whitewash those weidos from the past so pushing them aside now feels justified. The funny thing is the ones that really need protection are the gays with non conformist gender presentations and they are basically being hung up to dry by their own community.
Every single living creature in the whole entire universe is connected. And, even beyond that, every single living being or creature in the whole wide universe is also connected to that which we do not consider living.
If there were a group of purple people with elephant ears and batwings that wanted me as a member of their community, I would be darn proud.
My only criteria is "Do these people respect all living things? Do we share the same values?"
Here is 1 of the 7 Unitarian Universalist principles.
# Respect for the
interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part We are all a part of an interdependent web. Even the people with whom we all disagree the most (Falwellians) are a part of this web. Does anyone remember this post by Trinity? https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13358.msg100950.html#msg100950 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13358.msg100950.html#msg100950) Here is a quote from it
QuoteIn a way, I agree. Jerry Falwell was a bigot.
However, I will never celebrate the death of one that did so much good in his life. I will not judge someone by their evil acts, but by their good ones. Unless, of course, the evil far outweighs the good. I know that when my daughter had cancer before she passed, even though he knew I was a tgirl he STILL gave a $10,000 check to us to pay for medical care.
And so, even one of our worse enemies turned out to be capable of overcoming his differences with us in order to help a child. It was ironic, of course, because he is one of the reasons that the GL&B's probably needed T's and vice-versa.
Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
It is the common ground that holds us together. One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.
It is about
common ground and not differences. If it were about differences, there would be no families that stay together and no communities and nothing. Just nothing.
Quote from: Rebis on October 08, 2007, 11:28:20 PM
Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
It is the common ground that holds us together. One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.
It is about common ground and not differences. If it were about differences, there would be no families that stay together and no communities and nothing. Just nothing.
You really got it, especially about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The most radical idea in the history of the world was the American idea: the idea that all are created equal, and possess inalienable rights by virtue of being human. If we are ever to have a just world, that is the idea that we must see through to its honest conclusion, if it takes one year or a thousand.
Gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, transgender, transsexual, transsexual who never wants to hear the world transsexual again and thinks people who call themselves transgender are all freaks and fetishists, black, white, Asian, Indian, American Indian, Tiger Woods, you, me, all of us -- all are created equal, all possess the same rights, not because they're gay or transsexual or black or white, but because they're human individuals. That's the most basic common ground of all, and the only base from which the fight we all want to win can ever be won.
every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual. barbara jordan :) :) :)
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AMYea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.
Hrm... Well I'm a hetero CD who also does drag and the show I perform with includes three trans woman (two post-op, one non-op) -- and there's several others in town (San Francisco). Thing is, it's not uncommon for trans woman who's attracted to men to move in drag queen circles because its a visible niche -- similar to how most trans guys attracted to women initially move in lesbian circles.
And as Lisbeth pointed out, back at the time of Stonewall and Compton's Cafeteria "drag queen" was used to refer both the cross-dressing stage performers and trans women. Watch "Screaming Queens" and you'll find most of the interviewees are actually trans woman. In fact I perform with one of the queens who was part of the Compton's riot and she most definitely considered herself a trans woman, even as she's also active in the gay community. Watch "Paris is Burning" -- probably at least a quarter of the "queens" profiles were trans women.
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 01:15:02 PMThen you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.
Some DQ do parody women. However, in my experience, most don't. They may parody pretty much everything, but a lot of them were "ordinary" crossdressers before taking the same -- seemingly for the same reasons I crossdress (to express a feminine side of myself) -- although they're often quite closeted about that aspect of it because it's as stigmatized in the gay community as it is in the hetero community. So can we lay off the sweeping generalizations?
Aravosis' article is a replay of the 1970s when drag queens were kicked out the gay movement; butches and trans woman kicked out of the lesbian and feminist movements, all in the name of "respectability." The interesting thing is some of the strongest support I've seen for a trans-inclusive ENDA is coming from the folks in small town America -- where they don't have the luxury of self-segregating. Consequently those folks understand that even though sexual identity and gender identity
are separate things -- there's also a lot we've all got in common. A number of gays and lesbians also are gender variant -- something Aravosis and the other well-to-do, politically-well-connected (probably "straight acting") white gay guys seem to want to overlook as well.
first, i base my answer on the distinction between transgender and transsexual. it has been my experience that many self-proclaimed transgenders expect that to mean the same thing as "transsexual", while the reality is, they are gender variant (tv, cd, drag queen, etc) and do not admit it. i'm perfectly ok with gender variant people if they are honest, yet i'm not ok with any orientation or gender who is dishonest.
the tg want to be a part of the ts community as well as the glb community. trying to have the best of both worlds only confuses the general public about what the ts is doing and who they are. i think that hiding one's gender variance behind the label and/or pretense of something else can be hurtful to the image and the fight for equal rights by honest lgb & tss. and i don't see how lgb can be lumped together with tg or ts (although it nearly always is) since a tg or ts can be lgb, but lgbs are mostly not tg or ts.
personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.
Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 02:26:07 AM
first, i base my answer on the distinction between transgender and transsexual. it has been my experience that many self-proclaimed transgenders expect that to mean the same thing as "transsexual", while the reality is, they are gender variant (tv, cd, drag queen, etc) and do not admit it. i'm perfectly ok with gender variant people if they are honest, yet i'm not ok with any orientation or gender who is dishonest.
So how would you classify people who are gender variant (e.g. reject the binary) and transition (including SRS) & pass?
Quote
personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.
I think the real problem is people wanting to shut out everyone they consider "weird".
Quote from: taru on October 09, 2007, 02:54:12 AM
So how would you classify people who are gender variant (e.g. reject the binary) and transition (including SRS) & pass?
i'd question why they insist on calling themselves "gender variant". if they transition, have grs and live as their target gender, they are ts not gender variant. people can believe themselves to be cleopatra queen of the nile but believing it doesn't make it a reality. let's call people and things by what they are supposed to be called.
if they reject the binary, what is it they are transitioning to? why transition at all? why grs? to me, that implies they don't "reject" the binary at all but embrace it. thus they are ts not gender variant.
Hi Katia
Yep, I do agree with you and this has been one of the reason's I have not went to any of the TG conventions. I have been pretty well a loner through most of my transitioning, I didn't have anyone to go to when I hit the bumps in the road.
My Soul Mate has on many occasions told me that Transgenders just muddy up the waters for those who are true transsexuals. Those that want to eventually be recognised at real women, that we're not just playing games,
If I was just playing games, I may as well get a Colt Forty Five and play a game of Russian roulette.
QuoteBe careful whom you judge so harshly... I've found in my life that those who despise being judged are often the loudest about THEIR judgements
I love that statment, there is much wisdom in it.
Cindy
Quote from: Chris on October 09, 2007, 01:29:19 AM
every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual. barbara jordan :) :) :)
I saw a video of Barbara Jordan giving a speech. She had to be the American Winston Churchill in terms of strength, dignity, articulation, and force of personality.
She's on my list of people to clone.
Posted on: October 09, 2007, 07:55:19 AM
QuoteAnd the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not
It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden
&
QuoteAt times I think there are no words
But these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden
I think Bob Dylan said that
Posted on: October 09, 2007, 08:03:46 AM
Quote from: Lena Dahlstrom on October 09, 2007, 01:40:09 AMA number of gays and lesbians also are gender variant -- something Aravosis and the other well-to-do, politically-well-connected (probably "straight acting") white gay guys seem to want to overlook as well.
SAWGG's should start their own group. :D
Quote from: Keira on October 08, 2007, 11:17:11 PM
What I sense here is a rewriting of the history of the gay rights movement to whitewash those weidos from the past so pushing them aside now feels justified.
As confirmation of that, if you watch
any documentary on the Stonewall riots, you will never see a single frame of film with a drag queen in it. They're all lying on the cutting room floor.
Quote from: Lena Dahlstrom on October 09, 2007, 01:40:09 AM
Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 01:15:02 PMThen you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.
Some DQ do parody women. However, in my experience, most don't. They may parody pretty much everything, but a lot of them were "ordinary" crossdressers before taking the same -- seemingly for the same reasons I crossdress (to express a feminine side of myself) -- although they're often quite closeted about that aspect of it because it's as stigmatized in the gay community as it is in the hetero community.
Kate, I understand what you are saying about drag queens as a parody of women, for a time I was uncomfortable going to drag shows for that very reason. But then I realised something. They are not parodying
ordinary women. They are parodying
show girls. Show girls are not ordinary women; they're Barbie dolls that move. Show girls need to be paradied to show how absurd the whole show girl industry is.
Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 02:26:07 AM
personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.
In Canada they always use "GLBTT."
Quote from: Rebis on October 08, 2007, 11:28:20 PM
Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
It is the common ground that holds us together. One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.
Divisivness does us no good. That is why the entire LGBT community has to hold together. If we do not, they will pick us off one at a time.
QuoteWhen the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out; I was not a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
--Friedrich Gustav Martin Niemöller
I think we're getting away from the point.
It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...
The article simply *tries* to point out that GLB's and TS's have little to nothing in common, and therefor perhaps shouldn't be lumped together into a single political group as it just confuses everyone as to what each is all about.
I'm with Katia on this, the more I read here, the more I realize there should be a GLB/TG group. Leave TS out of it. As with GLBs, TGs are fighting for their rights to be variant, to be different without persecution. It would SEEM like many people who call themselves TS WANT to remain identified as such, and therefor are really more TG than TS.
I read about "banding together as a community" and have to wonder what "community" TSs are in? GLBs and TGs may band together into like-minded communities, but TSs tend to blend back into the fabric of society if at all possible, and want to LOSE the TS designation... where GLBs and TGs are fighting to have their labels recognized.
We're just going in two totally different directions, and the author recognizes that and asks some very valid questions. I can see why people who WANT to be variant would be upset about splitting off from the GLBT "community," but I don't understand why TSs (who want to blend back in) would be so *personally* insulted by the suggestion?
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 10:00:22 AM
I think we're getting away from the point.
It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...
The article simply *tries* to point out that GLB's and TS's have little to nothing in common, and therefor perhaps shouldn't be lumped together into a single political group as it just confuses everyone as to what each is all about.
I'm with Katia on this, the more I read here, the more I realize there should be a GLB/TG group. Leave TS out of it. As with GLBs, TGs are fighting for their rights to be variant, to be different without persecution. It would SEEM like many people who call themselves TS WANT to remain identified as such, and therefor are really more TG than TS.
I read about "banding together as a community" and have to wonder what "community" TSs are in? GLBs and TGs may band together into like-minded communities, but TSs tend to blend back into the fabric of society if at all possible, and want to LOSE the TS designation... where GLBs and TGs are fighting to have their labels recognized.
We're just going in two totally different directions, and the author recognizes that and asks some very valid questions. I can see why people who WANT to be variant would be upset about splitting off from the GLBT "community," but I don't understand why TSs (who want to blend back in) would be so *personally* insulted by the suggestion?
~Kate~
Hi Kate,
There are people in each group that would like to break off. There are gay men who believe they stand alone and there are lesbians who believe they stand alone and there are T's who believe they stand alone.
That's okay because that's what freedom is all about. I'm sure there are already groups for G's, L's, or T's only. You have the choice of supporting such a group or not supporting any group at all.
But when people who feel no need to be in the mix express their desire to see any of the smaller groups split off from the Union of GLBTIQA, it is stressing for someone who believes in unity. I can understand separatism, but it's not where I'm at. I prefer the diversity and the strength that comes with it.
If you are a part of no group or a TS only group, that's okay. It's just that, personally, I have an anxiety attack that I'll be booted from the GLBTIQ world which is where I fit. I guess that is an unreasonable fear. There will always be loners and splinter groups and at least one, if not many, umbrella group(s).
You fear we want to drag you along with us and we fear you want to remove us from our place amongst the umbrella people.
Let's face it. No one is going anywhere. TS's who appreciate the GLBTIQ will stick with it. Those who don't will go their own way.
Nearly everybody wins except the people who most need solidarity. But if life were perfect, I'd be flying through space right now on my way to watch a sun being born.
It is okay for us each to feel differently. Nobody intends to hurt anybody else. The fear, the discomfort, and the mistrust are all very unnecessary.
In my opinion.
QuoteIt's a restless hungry feeling
That don't mean no one no good,
When ev'rything I'm a-sayin'
You can say it just as good.
You're right from your side,
I'm right from mine.
We're both just one too many mornings
An' a thousand miles behind.
Bob Dylan
Love,
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on October 09, 2007, 08:07:23 AM
Quote from: Chris on October 09, 2007, 01:29:19 AM
every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual. barbara jordan :) :) :)
I saw a video of Barbara Jordan giving a speech. She had to be the American Winston Churchill in terms of strength, dignity, articulation, and force of personality.
She's on my list of people to clone.
I looked up Barbara Jordan in Wikipedia. I found this quote amongst her other uplifting quotes...
Quote"There is no way that I can equate discrimination on the basis of sexual preference with discrimination on the basis of skin color."
It sounds like she would have agreed with the "immutable characteristics only" crowd.
We need to educate;
Karen
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 10:00:22 AM
I think we're getting away from the point.
It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...
Quite the contrary. The religious right would be delighted if this split GLBT up into fighting factions so we could easily be defeated. Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like
those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead. Personally I would rather work
with people than spend time trying to get people to see I'm not
like them.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 12:03:34 PM
Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead.
What consequences? You mean like people realizing that I'm not variant, not "alternative," not trying to push gender boundaries, not belonging to communities bonded together by their sexuality? People realizing that I don't *identify* as a transsexual, that I just want to be recognized and accepted for who *I* am? Is it SO wrong for me to fight to be seen as an ordinary woman?
That's very difficult to do, shouting it from within a crowd of people fighting for their rights to be variant.
If I wasn't so scared of discrimination, if I was true to what I believe, if I wasn't willing to sell out who I am just for job protections.. then yes, I'd face those consequences in a heartbeat.
On the other hand, I think TG *should* probably stay in GLBT. It makes some sense for groups who WANT to be allowed to stand out to band together for protections.
But TS? No, it doesn't belong, aside from the obvious practical political advantages of piggy-backing along with the GLB fight. And that's what the author realizes and is annoyed at. I don't blame him one bit.
QuotePersonally I would rather work with people than spend time trying to get people to see I'm not like them.
They're not mutually exclusive. TONS of straight, non-TS people fully support and help with GLB rights. This suggestion is what keeps confusing and worrying me: that anyone who doesn't want to join the club is by default unsupportive somehow.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 12:03:34 PM
Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead.
What consequences?
*sigh*
These consequence. You said them yourself...
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 12:31:01 PM
If I wasn't so scared of discrimination, if I was true to what I believe, if I wasn't willing to sell out who I am just for job protections.. then yes, I'd face those consequences in a heartbeat.
...if you want to separate yourself from the people you don't want to be associated with, then welcome to the world of discrimination. You say you are afraid of it, but that's where you are setting your course.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 01:51:37 PM
...if you want to separate yourself from the people you don't want to be associated with, then welcome to the world of discrimination. You say you are afraid of it, but that's where you are setting your course.
But that's my point. Yes, it's tempting to stay associated with them, but...
Is it fair for me to run and hide amoungst the GLB's, pretending I have something in common with them, in order to use them to selfishly gain political protections for myself?
Is it fair to them that by doing so, I may be harming their own efforts to finally secure the rights they've been fighting for?
Is it fair to me OR them to sell myself out, to falsely "blend" into a crowd of variants, only to later abandon them to blend back into the gender binary?
I don't know if you can have it both ways. IMHO, if you're a TS, it's ethically wrong to say "me too!" to the GLB community just long enough to get what we want from that association. And if someone MEANs it when they say "me too," then they're talking about being TG, not transsexual.
So yes, breaking myself off from the whole GLBT thing might be risking discrimination for myself. I'm terrified to do it. But I DO think it's the "right" thing to do. The more honest choice anyway, at least for myself.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 02:14:26 PM
Is it fair for me to run and hide amoungst the GLB's, pretending I have something in common with them, in order to use them to selfishly gain political protections for myself?
Is it fair to them that by doing so, I may be harming their own efforts to finally secure the rights they've been fighting for?
Is it fair to me OR them to sell myself out, to falsely "blend" into a crowd of variants, only to later abandon them to blend back into the gender binary?
How altruistic of you. I prefer to finish what I have spent the last ten years of my life working for: that noone's rights should be gained by climbing on the backs of others. As the lesbian activist Rev. Janie Spahr said, "We all go through the door together or none of us goes."
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 03:29:29 PM
As the lesbian activist Rev. Janie Spahr said, "We all go through the door together or none of us goes."
We don't fit through the door together. We must go through it individually. Forgive me but after the sorrows we have experienced transitioning, after the rigors we have had to put up with, the TS label doesn't even fit anymore. I support Katia on this. TG & TS don't belong together as we always go our separate ways.
Hi Kate
I do agree with you. once I started full time and was fortunate enough to retain my job as a Social Worker I only just strived to become part of society, just another one of the girls. That was seven years ago and I have not had trouble being an active member of society since. I only just want to be me. I am Woman.
Cindy
QuoteTo each his own.
(Suum Cuique)
Cicero
Roman author, orator, & politician (106 BC - 43 BC)
Or, more inclusively, "To each their own"
Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 03:06:15 AM
i'd question why they insist on calling themselves "gender variant". if they transition, have grs and live as their target gender, they are ts not gender variant. people can believe themselves to be cleopatra queen of the nile but believing it doesn't make it a reality. let's call people and things by what they are supposed to be called.
if they reject the binary, what is it they are transitioning to? why transition at all? why grs? to me, that implies they don't "reject" the binary at all but embrace it. thus they are ts not gender variant.
People can identify outside of the standard gender binary (and gender identity, by definition, is what someone believes themself to be) while still feeling completely wrong in the body they're born with. Kate Bornstein is one famous example.
Oh, what's that you say? You were born with a penis? Then you're a man and always will be. Oh, you can believe you're a woman, or a unicorn, or Cleopatra, Queen of the Nile, but believing doesn't make it a reality. You can pump yourself full of artificial hormones and mutilate yourself all you want, but you'll just be more of a freak.
See a problem here?
Analogies are not arguments, mockery is not proof.
Quote from: cindybc on October 09, 2007, 05:00:19 AM
My Soul Mate has on many occasions told me that Transgenders just muddy up the waters for those who are true transsexuals. Those that want to eventually be recognised at real women, that we're not just playing games,
If I was just playing games, I may as well get a Colt Forty Five and play a game of Russian roulette.
I'll add that to my list of things some people think. That we're playing games.
Some people also think it about you.
Quote from: cindybc on October 09, 2007, 05:00:19 AMBe careful whom you judge so harshly... I've found in my life that those who despise being judged are often the loudest about THEIR judgements
I love that statment, there is much wisdom in it.
Cindy
There is, as long as you correctly identify who the people you're referring to are.
Now on to something slightly different, but related. Some of you say that transsexuals and the other GLBTs have nothing in common and should go their separate ways. An interesting, and often forgotten, part of American history is that for a large part of it, blacks and Jews worked together to gain recognition of each others' rights. This despite the fact that they didn't appear to have anything in common, other than that their rights were being denied by the same people for much the same reasons. This despite the fact that a lot of Jews, as well as some blacks, could blend into the general white society and not be noticed, passing as "normal." (This is where the word "passing" comes from, by the way.) But Jewish boys were blasted with hoses and even killed for being in civil rights marches, and Martin Luther King strongly supported the state of Israel. They accomplished more together than either group could ever have accomplished alone, and they stood together because their cause was the same cause, their enemies the same enemies.
Their cause was the great cause of human history: to be recognized as human, with all that implies -- including, of course, to be recognized as the kind of human you are. If asked, Kate would say she is of one kind, Chris would say he is of another, Rebis would name another, and I another still. But ask people who make a living warning the world about the homosexual agenda or whatever the devil has cooked up this year, and they'll say something very different -- that none of us are human -- perhaps that Chris is just a butch lesbian with penis envy gone mad, or that I'm an antisocial destroyer of the family, or that Kate is a sex-crazed ->-bleeped-<-got out to seduce good God-fearing straight men, or that people like Rebis don't exist. Can you honestly say that my goal -- ensuring that the government will never put force behind the opinions of such people, and convincing people that such ideas are wrong and evil -- is not Rebis's goal, or Chris's, or Kate's?
Is what we want the same? On the surface, no, but in the principles involved, yes -- to win a piece of that great cause, to gain recognition of humanity for more people, and to live our lives as is appropriate to who we are, whoever that may be. That is why I support people who, perhaps, don't want my alliance. I am their ally, because I am human, and because I am an American, by birth and by choice, in the only sense that has any meaning: I hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men -- be they male, female, or anything else -- are created equal, and are endowed by their creator -- be it God or the laws of nature -- with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...
One of the problems here is the assumption that variants are all "lifestyle" people and TS don't have the choice.
If GID is a continuum, then you have even TS who are "more" TS than, androgynes, etc.
I think the term TS itself is to straightforward for the reality that exists on the ground.
Most TS don't start with everything sorted out and may "transition" through many communities and identities before finally sorting themselves out into the medically defined TS.
In between, we are indeed considered "variants" of some kind, wheter it is by our sexuality or gender identity.
The T is a grab bag, and that is a problem on the political side, since politicians wants constituents and the T crowd is so disparate they don't make a very good voting block (and even inside the LBG movement, their voice is again fragmented even outside the purely TS vs TG crowd).
Quote from: Lena Dahlstrom on October 09, 2007, 01:40:09 AM
Hrm... Well I'm a hetero CD who also does drag..........
Hmmmm....hello Lena and welcome to Susan's! would you mind posting an introduction here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html
tink :icon_chick:
Actually most of the people in GLBT are not gender variant. But just normal men and women who happen to have love people of the same gender. Thus there is no conflict with being a normal man/woman and belonging to GLBT.
If TG and TS would be split, which category would non-passable TS inviduals be put into? They are visibly gender-variant and will suffer from the same issues as gender-variant LGB&TG people.
Straight-acting LGB folks and passing TS have few issues when compared to the ones that are visible. Thus a part of all the groups wants to dump the visible & weird group away since "they have nothing in common with me".
Quote from: taru on October 10, 2007, 02:12:33 AM
Actually most of the people in GLBT are not gender variant.
yeah, but, lots of gender variants, let's be honest, change their sexual orientation.
so if you're a straight male but actually are female "trapped in a male body," then transition to a straight female, voila! you've changed your sexual orientation. and in my book, anyway, that makes you pretty freaky, in a good way (i seldom use the word freaky in the pejorative).
therefore, you have a natural right to claim membership in the GLBT.
I have only one last comment and then I'll have nothing more to do with this thread.
For those who wish to separate from GLB...
An aweful lot of LGB people out there have stepped up to the bat over the last few years to say, "We want to include you, too." An aweful lot* have stepped up and said, "If Ts are not included in ENDA, we don't want it either." Just remember that as you turn and walk away.
* At last count over 300 GLBT organizations and over 14,000 individuals who have talked to their congressmen.
That is a lot of organizations that have stepped up too. If anything has come out of a non-inclusive ENDA I think it has shown there is a lot more support for us in the GLB than most of us thought.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 10, 2007, 09:49:37 AM
An aweful lot of LGB people out there have stepped up to the bat over the last few years to say, "We want to include you, too." An aweful lot* have stepped up and said, "If Ts are not included in ENDA, we don't want it either." Just remember that as you turn and walk away.
* At last count over 300 GLBT organizations and over 14,000 individuals who have talked to their congressmen.
Quote from: taru on October 10, 2007, 02:12:33 AM
If TG and TS would be split, which category would non-passable TS inviduals be put into? They are visibly gender-variant and will suffer from the same issues as gender-variant LGB&TG people.
They're still TS, as they don't WANT to be variant or "stand out." It's a matter of who they ARE, not what they're passability quotient is. And who they are is women, just like any other woman, and should be protected as such.
I DO realize though that we don't live in that legal world yet. We're *supposedly* legally female after SRS, yet we're still treated as a third, unprotected gender when it comes to discrimination judgements. It's hypocritical and makes no sense to me. But it's the reality, and thus we need something like ENDA unfortunately.
~Kate~
The term gender variant (or gender variance) covers a wide field of people in our culture, some of which that fall into the LGBT categories and others who do not. Basically they do not conform, in some way, to what is the accepted norm within a given culture (ie US Western culture) or perhaps even a host culture.
A boy may like to play with his male friends but perhaps likes to play with Barbie dolls.
A girl who only wants to play the rough games of boys (iow a tom boy).
Both exhibit gender variance but that does not mean that they fall within the LGBT categories even though some signs of gender variance do cross into the clinical definition of GID. However, that does not mean that they should be diagnosed with GID, only that they share some aspects with GID individuals.
On my last outing into the LGBT community I saw many, many individuals who exhibited gender variance in public. Therefore, including gender variance into legislation is a must for those who may not conform to the perceived norms of US Western culture. GV is a large net and will cover many people, some who may not even realise it at first.
TS individuals are gender variant. We did not conform to society's expectations for our given birth gender. That does not mean that we continue to exhibit obvious gender variant behavior forever. I have been slammed for not being transwoman enough because I liked doing little things on my car on my own and loved learning about those things. While there are female mechanics, the expectation of society is that this career field is primarily for males. These things may (and probably will) change in time, that is why I used the word culture so often to this point. So while a MTF TS who lives stealth and only does what are perceived as feminine things in the host culture is indeed gender variant, she does not appear so to the general public. This is the goal of many individuals but not everyone.
I will give this thread a few more responses but then it will probably be locked as we have covered as much ground as we can on this issue.
once you've transitioned mentally, there's nothing "variant" about ourselves.
Quote from: ChildOfTheLight on October 09, 2007, 07:59:18 PM
Oh, what's that you say? You were born with a penis? Then you're a man and always will be. Oh, you can believe you're a woman, or a unicorn, or Cleopatra, Queen of the Nile, but believing doesn't make it a reality. You can pump yourself full of artificial hormones and mutilate yourself all you want, but you'll just be more of a freak.
oh the anger, oh the humiliation. are you trying to infuriate me? ha ha ha ha
it won't work. i know what i am & i can prove it. :-*
Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 01:50:30 AM
once you've transitioned mentally, there's nothing "variant" about ourselves.
I think "variant" from a practical viewpoint describes more how people fit into societys norm (appearance, behaviour) than how they identify.
Hi Katia
Quoteoh the anger, oh the humiliation. are you trying to infuriate me? ha ha ha ha
it won't work. i know what i am & i can prove it.
Yep I can prove it, but why should I? It took me nearly ten years to get there and I deserve it. I Am Woman, May God Bless.
So I agree with Katia.
Cindy