I took estradiol valerate as an injection in my muscle for 5-1/2 years. Unfortunately, even after all that time, everyone still referred to me as a male. :'( I eventually just gave up and stopped estrogen in 2012. I had an orchiectomy earlier, so my body did not revert back to masculine and it kept most of the feminine features. Can someone help me understand how I should feel about this?
I see transition videos on YouTube of people taking HRT for just 5 months and then transitioning to living as a woman full-time (Passing very well I will add!) and I just feel really left out and need a shoulder to cry on.
the problem is genetics that we all have to deal with. I sat across from an older woman ,probably a little younger than me , a couple of days ago in the Target Starbucks and my first thought was trans and for 15 minutes I'm saying to myself definitely trans no other way. She was with a friend and started to have a lengthy conversation that I could hear and I realized no way she was trans.
There are a few things that can help passing better:
-growing hair out so it covers brows and forehead.
For a quick fix there are clipin extensions available, you might look it up on youtube.
-mannerism and gait also play a part.
You might try to feel girly inside ... just feeling it. It should radiate outwards, showing a natural mannerism and gait.
Not overdoing things ... just feeling it and doing what comes naturally.
-walk
women kind of almost walk on a line, pushing hips forward.
Men just put one foot forwards, and also move shoulders forwards.
-voice
you might try to raise your voice a bit.
With some experience its like finding a newer and higher register.
reading books aloud might help.
It might not be necessary to do this for a longer time but consistently, over a few days, a few minutes every day.
-here are more hints concerning voice:
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/
also women use more indirect language ... and having a bit a breathy voice might also help.
Some makeup might help ... or even simply having something nourishing on the face.
Some people use coconut oil or jojoba oil.
Otherwise simply some foundation might help:
http://www.soorganic.com/lavera-natural-liquid-foundation.html
Maybe together with some volumizing mascara ... and a lipstick in unobtrusive colours ...
*hugs*
Here is additionally a link showing the right mix of hormones might be important:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,205488.msg1825048.html#msg1825048
*hugs*
Estrogen isn't always effective in feminizing facial features. It helps but the combination of hair, makeup, voice, presentation and sometime facial surgery is required to hit the 99% gendered correctly number. Others who start out with feminine faces can hit that number with only a few months of HRT.
I was off HRT for about 10 years and the fat has moved out of my face and other places leaving me somewhat less feminine appearing. As the result of this site, I returned to HRT two weeks ago in order to regain what I lost. I would suggest you consider returning to HRT, possibly oral at about half the transition dose in order to prevent further shifting of fat and regain what you may have lost.
Another factor to consider is a CIS woman develops up to 10 years so you might have quite before achieving all that was possible.
Regrettably HRT isn't the only thing you need to be passable, it will only feminise you so far and for the vast majority it by itself won't get you "over the line". You've told us you were on HRT but not how you presented yourself, what you wore, your general appearance and the way you talked and interacted. All those things, like it or not, can make a massive difference. There are plenty of good suggestions above worth considering.
You really should have a sex hormone in your system for bone health.
I have been on HRT for 2-3/4 years and have very soft features. Many woman say so as well as two FFS doctors. However due to T my mandible and forehead need reduction. Then hair needs a temp piece followed by correction.
Quote from: Rachel Lynn on March 06, 2016, 06:56:38 PM
You really should have a sex hormone in your system for bone health.
And for other reasons, psychological well-being, cardiovascular health, memory, to prevent fast ageing, feminine appearance, etc.
In my 11 yrs +, I have seen many women pass with just HRT (+ facial removal) if the regimen is adequate which sometimes it is not due to the incompetency of doctors. In some, FFS (facial feminization surgery) is also needed. In others, due to voice, it makes things more complicated. Sadly, surgery for this only modifies pitch and not resonance which is much more important to passing as female.
Without FFS, VFS and BA I would never pass. HRT did not much changes. Not to speak about beard removal.
Now I had all these surgeries and I pass 100%. In my personal view FFS is very important followed by vfs (always together with speech therapy). People are looking in your face finding masculine features, often caused by your bones which cannot be changed from HRT. These features often add up with a low voice, more masculine behavior and the body shape and in the end you are looking 70% masculine. And the face maybe is adding 50% and your voice 25% overall to your masculinity. All other thinks together maybe add up to the missing 25%. A man in a skirt is still recognized as a man, a man without beard and with breasts is still recognized as a man....
My suggestion is contact facial team and ask for a simulation before and after FFS. Maybe you will be surprised. And test your voice on the phone with making cold calls without mentioning your first name and gender.
Quote from: Lara1969 on March 07, 2016, 03:48:24 PM
In my personal view FFS is very important
Well a hairstyle covering brows and forehead might help some people already..
and some said the cartilage of their nose changed with hrt...
so a surgery might not be necessary in all cases ...
people are different...
There are websites where a virtual result might be available:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,110589.0.html
hugs
Quote from: Lara1969 on March 07, 2016, 03:48:24 PM
Without FFS, VFS and BA I would never pass. HRT did not much changes.
Perhaps your HRT was inadequate, your doctors too conservative. Or you didn't wait long enough for effects. Or you started out with very masculine features. Or a combination.
QuotePeople are looking in your face finding masculine features, often caused by your bones which cannot be changed from HRT.
Indeed, bones cannot be changed BUT estrogen increases subcutaneous fat which significantly changes how your face and overall body looks, making it look softer, curvier (increased thighs, buttocks) and less angular (i.e. face). I went from passing 100% as male to passing 100% as female in less than a year. Facial hair removal helped but subcutaneous fat increase also helped a lot. I have had no FFS at all and know many who haven't and pass incognito.
QuoteThese features often add up with a low voice
Some ignore the importance of resonance (not modified by surgery) and the technique to change so one's voice sounds female. I had no voice surgery and I pass 100% of the time on the phone. I mastered the technique and now, it's become second nature. In person, when I passed as female, even with my normal male voice, I passed! It's true I didn't have a very low male voice either (tenor) but still, goes to show you how if you look female, voice becomes less important.
KayXo, how did you get your voice to pass 100% of the time? Please tell me :(
Quote from: blossom on March 11, 2016, 03:40:26 PM
how did you get your voice to pass 100% of the time? Please tell me :(
You could:
read a book every day in a higher voice.
Not much higher just higher.
It takes a few weeks and you feel you are in a higher register permanently.
You can work from there.
Having a more breathy voice also helps.
Exhaling while talking ... talking slowly ... and with a lot of ups and downs, going up and down with intonation within words and sentences.
If you know your way with computers you might use the software overtone analyzer to check results from time to time...
try to train to avoid vibrations below 180 hz.
and recording the voice from time to time and listening helps... trying out a few things, like a breathy voice ... and listening to the recorded results.
*hugs*
Transitioning is not easy. There are so many parts that you need to work on in order to get it right. Hair, make-up and clothes are, whether we like it or not, a big part of it. Mannerisms are very important in how we are viewed. As already stated, the way you walk is important. The way you talk is also very important. It does take time for all of these things to mesh together to make us female in the eyes of others.
You said you were on HRT for 5 1/2 years. During that time what else did you do to feminize yourself? Did you work with a gender therapist? Did you meet with any other trans women to discuss what was and wasn't working for them? Did you seek out help from friends to give you advice on how you were coming across to them?
This site is filled with very helpful tips and information on how you can become the you that is trapped inside waiting to burst forth. I know it helped me become the woman that everyone can now see. If you work at it, it will come. Good luck girl!
Quote from: blossom on March 11, 2016, 03:40:26 PM
KayXo, how did you get your voice to pass 100% of the time? Please tell me :(
I only use muscles above adams apple (those that contract when I swallow) when I speak, not those under so that it does not vibrate under adam's apple or in chest. Another approach is to touch your adam's apple with your finger, and never allow it to drop back down to finger when speaking. You're making your voicebox smaller this way. Practice and eventually, it will become second nature. Nothing else is done, absolutely nothing. It's that simple!
Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 11, 2016, 04:48:22 PM
Transitioning is not easy. There are so many parts that you need to work on in order to get it right. Hair, make-up and clothes are, whether we like it or not, a big part of it. Mannerisms are very important in how we are viewed. As already stated, the way you walk is important. The way you talk is also very important. It does take time for all of these things to mesh together to make us female in the eyes of others.
The point of transitioning was to be ME, not to conform to a stereotype and fall back again into something that is not me. Do the things that I love, feel comfortable in my skin, etc. Live for ME, no one else.Live effortlessly. I have already compromised my integrity in one area, voice, where I changed the resonance of it, to pass better. But as far as mannerisms, how I talk, how I dress, do my hair or makeup, I choose to do whatever the hell I feel most happy and comfortable with. And the heck with the world... I admire those women that continue speaking with their normal voices despite what others might think, now these women have integrity!
My 2 cents...
Kay - It's great that you are comfortable with who you are and how you present yourself to the world. Everyone's transition is different and there is no right or wrong way to transition. I also transitioned to live as me. For me to be comfortable with myself I did need to change the way I looked, spoke and presented myself in public. Not because it was some form of compromise, it was because I needed to do it to feel complete. Frankly, I am hurt that you seem to think that those of us who choose to work on our voices and other areas so that we can feel comfortable are somehow compromising our integrity.
I was responding to a person who was asking about why she was being misgendered. In other threads she was asking about FFS and VFS. She is specifically asking about how to pass as female in the eyes of others. She isn't asking about how she can be comfortable with things as they are now for her.
I transitioned for ME. I feel 1,000% better about my life, my future, my body and my soul. My friends and family see it too and they comment on it. The wonderful thing about living your authentic life is you get to choose how you live it! Yes I did work at some things, others came things came incredibly naturally. For me now, I can live as me without all that much thought at all. I can unquestionably go anywhere and I am seen as a woman which is what I needed out of my transition. Now I get to live the rest of my life as just one of the girls. I am a trans woman and I am proud of that fact.
Quote from: KayXo on March 11, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
The point of transitioning was to be ME, not to conform to a stereotype and fall back again into something that is not me. Do the things that I love, feel comfortable in my skin, etc. Live for ME, no one else.Live effortlessly. I have already compromised my integrity in one area, voice, where I changed the resonance of it, to pass better. But as far as mannerisms, how I talk, how I dress, do my hair or makeup, I choose to do whatever the hell I feel most happy and comfortable with. And the heck with the world... I admire those women that continue speaking with their normal voices despite what others might think, now these women have integrity!
My 2 cents...
Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 11, 2016, 08:13:39 PM
Not because it was some form of compromise, it was because I needed to do it to feel complete. Frankly, I am hurt that you seem to think that those of us who choose to work on our voices and other areas so that we can feel comfortable are somehow compromising our integrity.
My goal is not to hurt you or anyone. I just think that when we try to do things that don't come natural, we stray away from ourselves and in the end, the one person that truly suffers from this is ourselves. We fear that if we let ourselves go, and just be, we will be ostracized because our voice will not sound female or the way we walk will not quite live up to female standards, etc. Trust me, I'm not there either and do many things to belong, to fit in but I realize this, in the end, may be hurting me more than benefiting me. It takes guts to truly be ourselves. And kudos to those who can...I still quite can't get there yet...
My intention is to bring us, me, you and everyone to a place where we can just be ourselves instead of a place where our goal is to pass, fit in, be loved or accepted by others. That's all. Don't take it badly, really. :)
QuoteI was responding to a person who was asking about why she was being misgendered. In other threads she was asking about FFS and VFS. She is specifically asking about how to pass as female in the eyes of others. She isn't asking about how she can be comfortable with things as they are now for her.
I understand. You are helping her. And she may realize one day what I've come to realize. It's up to her to come to that realization, on her own. In the meantime, all we can do is guide her.
I have no idea why you think that I or other people who are working on their voice and presentation would not be offended by this. In effect you are saying we are gutless. There are many people who, for themselves, want to look act or sound a certain way. Just because something may not come naturally to an individual at first does not mean that they should just accept it and not try to improve. Applying makeup may not come naturally to an individual. Many cis and trans women like wearing makeup because it can dramatically change their appearance. It makes some individuals feel good about themselves. Developing that skill, for some, does not take away from there sense of self, it helps complete their feeling of self. The same can be said for how they view their voice, their mannerisms and their body. I can tell you that my mannerisms, my voice and my presentation are all a natural part of me now. I am very comfortable with being me now, much more than I ever was in my other life when I was him....In effect, I have honed some skills that have allowed me to be myself.
Quote from: KayXo on March 11, 2016, 08:54:55 PM
My goal is not to hurt you or anyone. I just think that when we try to do things that don't come natural, we stray away from ourselves and in the end, the one person that truly suffers from this is ourselves...... It takes guts to truly be ourselves. And kudos to those who can........
I can't speak for anyone else but my goal is to be my true self. The self that I have wanted to be all my life. That self is not the person I was. It is the person I have been growing into the last year. I transitioned full time after being on HRT for only 3 months. I was content with that time frame even though I did not "pass" and my presentation and voice were not what
I would have liked. I was, and am, a work in progress. The only person I am trying to please is myself. The fact that I have become incredibly happy, confident and secure in my personhood allows others to be able to more readily accept me. I am not doing what I am doing to get their acceptance, it just happens to be a happy byproduct of a successful transition.
Quote from: KayXo on March 11, 2016, 08:54:55 PM
My intention is to bring us, me, you and everyone to a place where we can just be ourselves instead of a place where our goal is to pass, fit in, be loved or accepted by others. That's all. Don't take it badly, really. :)
:police:
I see no reason for bickering.
I do not want to see such behaviour continue.
Cindy
Forum Admin
Quote from: KayXo on March 11, 2016, 08:54:55 PM
My intention is to bring us, me, you and everyone to a place where we can just be ourselves instead of a place where our goal is to pass, fit in, be loved or accepted by others. That's all. Don't take it badly, really. :)
I get what you mean here, Kay. I realised that my transition was more about me being myself than any great need to "look and act" like a woman. I use essentially the same voice I have always used. Hormones have not left me looking particularly feminine - at least by recognised standards. That said, I live as a woman. People see me and treat me as a woman. It was somewhat of an epiphany for me, as before I thought I was doomed to never live my life as it should be.
Quote from: KayXo on March 08, 2016, 07:58:22 AM
Perhaps your HRT was inadequate, your doctors too conservative. Or you didn't wait long enough for effects. Or you started out with very masculine features. Or a combination.
Indeed, bones cannot be changed BUT estrogen increases subcutaneous fat which significantly changes how your face and overall body looks, making it look softer, curvier (increased thighs, buttocks) and less angular (i.e. face). I went from passing 100% as male to passing 100% as female in less than a year. Facial hair removal helped but subcutaneous fat increase also helped a lot. I have had no FFS at all and know many who haven't and pass incognito.
Some ignore the importance of resonance (not modified by surgery) and the technique to change so one's voice sounds female. I had no voice surgery and I pass 100% of the time on the phone. I mastered the technique and now, it's become second nature. In person, when I passed as female, even with my normal male voice, I passed! It's true I didn't have a very low male voice either (tenor) but still, goes to show you how if you look female, voice becomes less important.
I do not agree. Two years before I also argued against these surgeries. Now after these surgeries I know that they are lifechanging events. My passing is now perfect even with larger hands, even when speaking in the night or coughing. I do not have to care like every CIS girl. As far as I know you did not had these surgeries. Maybe you underestimate the results?
Like you said bones do not change. I saw very few transgirls who would not benefit. The changes from hrt are coming on top which gave me much more beauty than I ever had. And yes I am pretty sure my hrt is good. I could try out every application form and dosage. And I also take Progesterone. I am now on injections. I had FFS with facial team and they did only bone work.
Ot is very similar with the voice. I am know recognized always as woman. Whatever and whenever I make noises. I could speak in the female range and with the right resonance before. But now my voice sounds 100% and sexy. And I can laugh and cough and I never have to think again about it.
These surgeries provide perfect freedom, peace and passing. Maybe you have to made the experience to understand what I mean. I do not know one girl who regretted their surgery with Kim or Haben or Facial Team or van Dussen (I not know girls in person which had surgery with other MDs). There are only some girls who regretted their FFS or VFS in the web because something went wrong.
I don't think FFS is needed, I can pass without it (although it helps a lot in some cases). Just yesterday I went to a restaurant and I noticed the waitress had a brow bone like mine, and she doesn't cover it with bangs, and her voice is more masculine than mine too, and nobody clocked her. In general I feel like hair, make up and clothes go a long way in helping you pass, and also working on your voice and mannerism is important, I didn't work much on those 2 last things because I didn't need to, but I see some trans women sometimes that do need more work on those, and maybe had ffs already.
Still I do want ffs, but just to ease my dysphoria which is sometimes uncalled or.
Quote from: Lara1969 on March 12, 2016, 02:34:34 PM
I do not agree. Two years before I also argued against these surgeries. Now after these surgeries I know that they are lifechanging events. My passing is now perfect even with larger hands, even when speaking in the night or coughing. I do not have to care like every CIS girl. As far as I know you did not had these surgeries. Maybe you underestimate the results?
You don't agree with the FACT that I pass perfectly and 100% of the time without voice surgery or FFS? And that others as well. Do you doubt of our sincerity? It's like disagreeing that the earth is round. We are proof that some people can pass perfectly without any of these surgeries. People are astounded, speechless when I tell them I was born male. I did not have these surgeries and I have no reason to. Spend tens of thousands of dollars that I don't even have, and risk breaking what is already working well?
QuoteAnd I can laugh and cough and I never have to think again about it.
I will admit that is the only thing that bothers me, that I have to be careful with, that prevents me from being 100% relaxed BUT since surgeries only change pitch and not resonance, I don't see how surgery would help with this. How can I be guaranteed of this without risking damage to my voice which passes perfectly already. Physically, I pass fine, no problems. So no concerns there.
QuoteThere are only some girls who regretted their FFS or VFS in the web because something went wrong.
And what's to say that I won't be one of these girls?? I am aware of Kim and Haben, the latter being quite close to me but honestly, I'm not impressed with most results when I compare my voice to theirs, recovery can also be VERY long, there is risk of scarring with Haben (I don't heal well), there are so many complications that can happen, one has to be careful not to speak or cough the first few weeks or else everything is compromised...the negatives outweigh the positives. Kim is sooooo far and VERY expensive. I also don't want my voice to become weaker as a result of the surgery.
But I wish I could feel more relaxed, like totally free as you say even if my voices passes 100% of the time...know that even if I let my guard down, it wouldn't matter, I think it would help improve quality of life. Ideally, I wish I didn't care! ;) But, I do.
Quote from: Melanie ♡ on March 12, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
Just yesterday I went to a restaurant and I noticed the waitress had a brow bone like mine, and she doesn't cover it with bangs, and her voice is more masculine than mine too, and nobody clocked her.
Excellent points. I also notice this. More physically than in terms of voice as I have rarely seen or heard women who sounded male. A few do indeed have masculine features, brow bone, hairline that is not typically female, no hourglass body shape, very small breasts, etc and pass perfectly well. So, I think our problem lies in the fact that we are very insecure due to the fact that we were born male, raised male and seek femininity to a greater degree to cover this up, compensate for this, help us feel more secure. We need it more given our past. But, in reality, we don't. It's a mental thing.
:police:
Calm down folks.
Clearly surgery is a personal choice. It is maybe needed by some and maybe not by others. It works well for some and not for others.
You can't argue against a person's personal experience, it is a subjective reality for them and not a "fact" that can be objectively argued about.
Quote from: Ms Grace on March 12, 2016, 04:55:50 PM
:police:
Calm down folks.
Clearly surgery is a personal choice. It is maybe needed by some and maybe not by others. It works well for some and not for others.
You can't argue against a person's personal experience, it is a subjective reality for them and not a "fact" that can be objectively argued about.
Hi Grace,
I don't mind her rebuttal. It's fine. But, it's more than my experience. It's fact. Fact is I pass on the phone 100% as female. This is not subjective. They refer to me as madam, miss, etc. I pass in person, it's obvious. Many, many men have flirted with me, peoples' reactions after they learn says everything, peoples' feedback have confirmed I indeed pass 100% and some have even asked if hormones changed my voice, they couldn't believe it! So, clearly, one cannot argue with this. Not my experience, facts.
I don't easily get offended. ;)
Thank you for all of the help everyone. It really means a lot to me.
Maybe it's because I'm overweight :'(
Increased fat usually gives one a more female appearance.
I have to second KayXO about surgeries. While FFS can help a certain group to pass, but it cannot be an absolute solution for everything. I have never had any surgery and I pass everywhere I go. I am not a supermodel and I don't aim to be one. But trust that when I enter a room - no one gives me a double take. Are some girls blessed with having good genes? - yes Are some girls react better with HRT alone? - yes.
Is FFS, VFS recommended for everyone? NO. I have seen a lot of threads here on Susan - surgeries from the best surgeon in the world and they still get clocked no matter what. I think the biggest benefit of any cosmetic surgery is confidence which then translates to better passing. I have accepted the fact that even If I shave my face to a size of a tomato someone will know and can tell I am trans and do I care - NO.
Estradiol has only one effect. The loss of money.
It is a sad fact of life really. Hrt is fickle and can really be a luck of the draw. It is also influenced by many factors i.e genetics, age). Regardless you will always be a beautiful woman inside and out. It hurts to be mispronounced I know but sometimes you just have to get past that and focus on the more positive aspects of how you've changed since transitioning.
Paige, I'm looking forward to your reply on my picture because you seem to be really level-headed and give great advice. Thank you very much and thank you everyone else.
Quote from: blossom on March 25, 2016, 04:31:22 PM
Paige, I'm looking forward to your reply on my picture because you seem to be really level-headed and give great advice. Thank you very much and thank you everyone else.
Thankyou Blossom that means a lot :)
Paige, did you get FFS?
Quote from: blossom on March 26, 2016, 03:19:11 PM
Paige, did you get FFS?
Not yet I'm still saving up but plan on it around next year. It's my last hurdle :)
Was that you in your old profile picture with the reddish hair? If so, you look like a model and I don't see how you could need FFS. Why do you think differently?
Quote from: blossom on March 26, 2016, 04:01:54 PM
Was that you in your old profile picture with the reddish hair? If so, you look like a model and I don't see how you could need FFS. Why do you think differently?
Lol I'm certainly not model material but thank you all the same :). Yeah that's me. Well granted I've never had any issues passing but I do have a bit of brow bossing I'd like to fix up and abit of a chin reduction as I feel it gives me a longish face but like they say you are your own worst critic.
Paige, is that you sitting in the window of your profile picture?
Of course. I was on a cruise ship with some friends in Feb, it was amazing :)
Paige, I am struggling to lose weight. I've been eating only tiny amounts of food, almost anorexic, if not anorexic, and have started to see some weight loss. How can I get a figure like yours in that profile picture? I want to wear tops like that too :'(
Eating less carbs can help with weight loss while eating enough protein and fat. :) Being too skinny may not be healthy and conducive to feminization (and breast growth).
I guess it's just me, myself and I. :icon_sad:
I've been told it's my presentation, but I'm still not sure about that. I feel like I have bad bossing above my eyebrows and I think my nose is big and masculine.
Quote from: blossom on April 08, 2016, 04:50:16 PM
I feel like I have bad bossing above my eyebrows
You could change your hairstyle so forehead and brows are covered.
Having a change in diet might help.
Eaing a bit more vegetables, and fruit, all in a healthy variety.
Apples consist mostly of water. So having an apple for snacks for example might help.
Also cutting drinks with high amounts of sugar.
Drinking some warm tea ...
*hugs*
Quote from: Laura_7 on April 08, 2016, 05:33:06 PM
You could change your hairstyle so forehead and brows are covered.
QuoteEaing a bit more vegetables, and fruit, all in a healthy variety.
Apples consist mostly of water. So having an apple for snacks for example might help.
Also cutting drinks with high amounts of sugar.
Drinking some warm tea ...
Laura, other than hairstyle, how are the other recommendations helpful for her problem? I don't understand...
Laura, thank you for your advice, but I was thinking the same thing as KayXo, why did you bring up healthy eating?
Quote from: blossom on April 08, 2016, 04:50:16 PM
I've been told it's my presentation, but I'm still not sure about that. I feel like I have bad bossing above my eyebrows and I think my nose is big and masculine.
Believe me, it's your presentation. Plus the fact you worry yourself sick over too many tiny details.
Grace, you've stopped writing long philosophical replies. I miss them :P (Joking again, but I do miss them)