I am feeling so frustrated today! See, my main hobby is one that is (at least in America) primarily done by women: amateur hunter/jumper horseback riding. I ride horses all the time--at least 5 times a week--and spend most of my days at the barn grooming horses for my trainer. Most of my income goes into horseback riding, and it's a very big part of my life. At the professional level there are plenty of men, but most amateurs are women. It is exceptionally rare to find male riders at the amateur level. Lately I've been feeling a little frustrated and very uncomfortable, because while the people at my barn try and remember to use the correct pronouns, they often slip up and say "her" or "she" instead of "he". I don't want to make a big deal and point it out every time because often they DO use the right pronouns, just sometimes they forget. I feel as though part of the reason behind this is because it's so unusual for men to ride English at this level. Do you think that there is anything I can do to make myself feel more confident as a guy in this situation? It's having a pretty negative effect on my psyche lately because I am at the barn SO MUCH, and I hate the fact that it is hurting my confidence. Yes, I ride English. Yes, I am a guy. Why the heck do these things have to be mutually exclusive in people's minds? ARGH. I am also afraid that if I ever try to date a fellow horse person, they will be more likely to consider me a "faker" or not really a man since guys are so rare in this sport. I know, it's a ridiculous fear, but one I have nevertheless.
I know lots of guys have hobbies that are not traditionally masculine, and I know that doesn't make you any less male. But at the same time, it is stressful when other people actually ACCEPT you as trans but FORGET what pronouns to use just because you're the only guy at the entire dang barn and they're so used to referring to "her" and "she" and calling groups of people "ladies" automatically.
Time to go Professional maybe?? :)
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 02, 2016, 09:19:16 PM
Time to go Professional maybe?? :)
LOL, if only I had the money! (If wishes were horses, we'd all show in Wellington!) It is definitely a privileged person's sport! Heck, even at the level I do you have to be pretty darn privileged to afford the hundreds of dollars a week in lesson fees, the $100-200 a pair riding pants, the $300-500 riding boots, the $200 helmet, the money for board if you own a horse (the money for the lease in my case), and the $300-$500 cost of trailering to and entering even the lowest priced schooling shows. I was actually thinking earlier that I really ought to be grateful I can do even what I do--it truly is a privilege most people can't afford. To ride at a higher level costs around $2500 a month in board and training fees, not including the cost of the horse itself, and shows cost $1500-$3000 a piece! But there is no chance of moving to pro level unless you ride at those high level barns and attend those pricey shows. *sigh* But we can all dream, right? Being a professional rider was my dream as a kid, but unfortunately if you ain't born to wealth then it's a very, very difficult sport to break into!
well ya gotta weigh the factors with hobbies. I race remote controlled race cars. But weighing what it would mean as I transition, i cannot help but think about the juvenile behaviors of a lot of those in a hobby that is 99.9% guys. It won't affect me too much to end that hobby. But if you love your hobby, and the effects of transition as far as that hobby are unknown, I could see you "biting the bullet" for that hobby that you love and embracing it.
Were you interacting with these people before coming out as trans and using male pronouns? I just wonder if this has less to do with them messing up pronouns because it's unusual for a guy to be there and more to do with them still adjusting to the switch? I've been thinking about this a lot lately because the people who seem to be having the easiest time with my pronouns are the people who have either known me for a really short time or who are used to interacting with trans people and changing pronouns. But the people who've known me awhile and don't have any experience with changing pronouns are really struggling. And I don't even come close to passing at this point so I don't think that it's so much a question of some people seeing me as female/feminine since I'm sure I read as female to everyone. That said I completely understand these fears. I'm always afraid that even if I do pass someday people will insist that I like the things I like because I'm really a girl or something equally stupid :( I don't know if this would help at all, but one thing that would help me feel more secure in my masculinity in that situation would be to remind myself that a lot of guys are insecure about having "female" hobbies and that by pursuing this I'm just proving how secure and confident I am in my masculinity. Kind of like, "Those other guys aren't man enough to handle a hobby like this." Lol, it sounds silly, but I think it's actually kind of true ;)
Sponsors! You need sponsors! Or a patron who believes in your talent. It can and does happen -- just keep hanging out with the rich folks in the barn...
In the meantime, hold your head high and be who you are. Is there anyone where you ride who's enough of an ally that you could ask them to spread the word, quietly, that it's really painful for you to be misgendered? That can help.
Quote from: Jonathan L on April 02, 2016, 11:14:04 PM
Were you interacting with these people before coming out as trans and using male pronouns? I just wonder if this has less to do with them messing up pronouns because it's unusual for a guy to be there and more to do with them still adjusting to the switch?
I was thinking along these lines. I have this issue at work. Not to completely dismiss your fears, but it leaves room for more hope that it gets better. I have people who see me continuously now and have a hard time using gendered language as new people meet and interact with me as a man.
To rant with you a bit...
I do know about horsemanship and how it is mostly a "girls" hobby. Like in cooking. It is considered girly but most chefs are men. It is yet another field dominated by men, but only women seem to dabble. Kinda stupid.
Back when I was young and in pony club there was only one other guy and he was really young. My trainer was male though. He bought up a ranch and decided to teach English riders after professionally competing. I got into dressage and did a little hunter jumper. My trainer was absolutely gay for hunter jumper.
I'm getting back into riding again. Not long ago I rented a thoroughbred and was goofing around on him for practice. He got particularly spooked by a kid messing around in a leave pile and I got bucked off. His mother yelled at him for "throwing that boy off his horse" so I know the stigma wont stop you from passing with given time.
I would expect that the hobby has less to do with it than people just struggling to change, or thoughtlessly answering. I run into it too with work and hobbies people who are new are great but people who knew me before even after almost a year full time still mess up sometimes. Though I will say I have a special hatred for group addresses....I am so sick of hearing "ok guys, im going to go xyz" the only thing worse is when they start like that then realize I am there it's add in something drawing attention to me.
I am a geek, video games, table top games I even work part time at the local game store. Last night was the midnight release of a new expansion for a game. 60 plus people where there from midnight till 5 am and aside from me working it was all men. Not the most comfortable situation.
Serena
Quote from: Tysilio on April 02, 2016, 11:45:51 PM
Sponsors! You need sponsors! Or a patron who believes in your talent. It can and does happen -- just keep hanging out with the rich folks in the barn...
In the meantime, hold your head high and be who you are. Is there anyone where you ride who's enough of an ally that you could ask them to spread the word, quietly, that it's really painful for you to be misgendered? That can help.
Hey there are some wealthy TG people out there, write to them! They may love to sponsor an transman in a professional sport. Who knows Caitlyn J may come to the party! It is just a tax write off for her.
i don't think it has anything to do with your hobby on why people "forget" i think it's just them knowing who you were before and still misgendering you, etc. because that is what most often happens. if another guy went there and maybe even looked feminine, i doubt they would misgender him tbh. it isn't something that is divide by sex in a concrete way (eg. a gym, or a sports team) so people have no reason to associate you with female pronouns. all in all, you need to be forceful with them if they keep misgendering you imo. i get it's new and a "habit" but it is one that needs to be broken and the only way that happens is if you enforce it harder imo or don't let it get to you but the more you enforce it, the more people will use the right pronouns instead of just "letting it go" because then people think it's okay to misgender you.
Same in my circles. Not only are the genre of comics I create in dominated by women, but the genre of sculpting I usually go for is also massively dominated by women as a profession and/or hobby. I do know other male doll/figure sculptors like Mark Dennis and Mark Newman, but we are apparently rare in the self-representing quarter. Although these have since ceased to be hobbies in the last 10 years and are now full time jobs for me.
Honestly it doesn't bother me. It's kind of a novelty to be a male artist in these circles and meet many female fans who are understandably curious how I got into the whole thing and how I feel about sculpting art dolls. I do notice that male artists tend to focus on being fully professional - I'm not sure whether that is them being more aggressive in how they sell or whether it's just that many female artists prefer to keep it on the hobby end and not let it become all "work" (very understandable - once you go down that road there's no going back), but I certainly want to take it as far as it will go and get as prominent as I can in the field.
As a mod at several art doll sites in the past I would get collectively passed over as male because I think 95% of the userbase was female... but it didn't really matter to me. People would correct others for me out of politeness and I never felt like it was something to make a deal out of online. I would in a physical setting like a gallery, but never deemed it worth the continuous effort or worry to keep bothering to correct newbies to the community. One of the advantages of it being a female-dominated community is that it was very polite and accepting in places like forums and meetups and collectives. There are downsides of it being a female-dominated profession as well apparently.
Professionally I originally kept my gender neutral or unmentioned, just as a kind of experiment ... and eventually I admitted my gender as male because it seemed to be that people wanted to know whether they were buying from a man or a woman. Turned out it's a little more favorable to be male if applying for a corporate position, and a little better to be female as a self-representing artist within the main "doll community" because most of the fans and collectors are also women. Within the comics community it doesn't seem to matter who or what as long as your stories are good.
I sympathize with the horses though. I live in an area where there are a lot of horses, riders and horse riding schools, and at one point I was interested in applying for an apprenticeship in working with horses. But seeing how massively dominated the whole thing is by women I wondered if I'd even get a look in for being hired. I mean my area is an area where it's still perfectly acceptable to discriminate for jobs based on sex because people don't think a man can be a carer or make a bed up properly (even though government here has rules against this, they just ignore it). I did think about applying before I transitioned but again, wondered if I'd keep my job for long if I did begin to transition.
This is an interesting conversation. I ran into a situation at work the other day when someone addressed the whole room as "you guys". I grew up in New England where that was gender neutral, but in the South the gender neutral address is "y'all". Everyone knew each other pretty well and they're used to me and were treating me as "one of the guys" however I am only out to a few of them (as trans--most of them should know I'm gay by now). It bothered me because if I HAD been the only woman in the room I would have had a problem with it and I felt like I was betraying feminism by NOT saying something even though I desperately want them to see me as a guy, if that makes sense? Plus I'm well aware that treating me as one of the guys - aka a "chill girl" (I dress masculine tho) - does not mean they're going to accept me when they find out I'm the transgender menace in their midst.
Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on April 03, 2016, 07:33:28 AM
This is an interesting conversation. I ran into a situation at work the other day when someone addressed the whole room as "you guys". I grew up in New England where that was gender neutral, but in the South the gender neutral address is "y'all". Everyone knew each other pretty well and they're used to me and were treating me as "one of the guys" however I am only out to a few of them (as trans--most of them should know I'm gay by now). It bothered me because if I HAD been the only woman in the room I would have had a problem with it and I felt like I was betraying feminism by NOT saying something even though I desperately want them to see me as a guy, if that makes sense? Plus I'm well aware that treating me as one of the guys - aka a "chill girl" (I dress masculine tho) - does not mean they're going to accept me when they find out I'm the transgender menace in their midst.
Is that person from the south? I grew up in New England as well but moved to Georgia in like 5th grade. I still say you guys but I also say y'all. It just depends on what comes out first. It could just be their vocab.
Like I say you guys, y'all, dude, and girl to everyone it just depends on what flows better or how exciting I get.
I don't mean any gender when I say it so I've called my male friends girl and my female friends dude. It honestly just depends on what I'm about to say
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Thanks for all the great replies! I didn't know the people at the barn long before I transitioned, but I did know them and many of them are pretty conservative (not in a sense that they have a problem with LGBT people but in the sense that they haven't been very exposed to this sort of thing before), so it may be more of a problem adjusting. The reason I don't correct very often is that I am usually misgendered during a really busy time like when I am being instructed on a jump course seconds before jumping it, which probably just proves that it's slipping their minds since it mainly happens when they are distracted. Though I do think it happens sometimes when they are talking to other people. :(. Hopefully they will adjust. The barn is owned by a lesbian so I think the older clientele have some trouble understanding the difference simply because they don't know anything about trans men.
Darn all these insecurities...
That is a really great idea about sponsorship... I might have to give that a try sometime. :)
So when it comes to hobbies... One of the really sad things for me about going on T is that I have to give up the women's football team that I'm on and that I love so much. I'll still stay connected to the team and go watch the games but it's sad not to be able to play with them anymore.
I think I will start looking and asking around to join a men's team but don't know if I will be ready for that yet this summer/fall. I could always find a co-op league so there are options..
I don't yet pass as male ever (I'm starting T actually in the next week or two when I can get my prescription) but I can't imagine that people sometimes messing up the pronouns as an innocent mistake would bother me that much. But maybe I will feel differently once I'm fully transitioning..
I've got a degree in making precious jewellery so I definitely feel you. The entire department was female too. The first time i met with a psychologist about my gender I made the mistake of mentioning this and had to explain that until very recently the profession has been male dominated, and while a lot of independent or self employed art jewellers are female, in the more traditional areas of the field it's still male dominated.
She went on to talk about how when she was growing up, all the 'other girls' (please save me from cis ~tomboy~ females) were interested in horses, so i just didn't talk about the decade i spent on horseback as a child P:
At the moment I'm still working in design, and I have to keep reminding myself (and others) that all the famous historical designers i like were male too. People forget how almost all professions have always been male dominated (because patriarchy) regardless of how people perceive the objects or activities.
Actually I think most professions were male dominated because men were and always have been expected to be employed/work, and women were not always expected to be. Not because 'Patriarchy' was intent upon preventing women from doing it. But women have always been on the crafty side throughout human history - as in skilled craftspeople - activities like weaving, embroidering, tailoring and making jewellery were some of the earliest human examples of craft and were probably accomplished by women due to the division of hard-to-soft labor between males and females. So if you wanna say males were "professional" jewelers or tailors - I'd bet women were the "unprofessional" or unsung masters for millennia before that.
And women as celebrated craftspeople? 'Patriarchy' couldn't stop them being so. Ever heard of Artemisia Gentileschi? Famous female painter in the 1600s, when you'd expect that male-dominated environment to have chewed her up and spat her out for even trying. She was famous and celebrated in her own lifetime, joined a prestigious academy of arts and even painted lots of her own interpretations of Biblical women, and a damn good painter... which is more than can be said for the fortunes of some of her male colleagues. Maybe she was lucky, but knowing the art world myself I think it's just determination and skill.
Remember, 'Patriarchy' as they call it these days would logically have restricted men if it also restricted women. For every woman not allowed to go work on a dangerous scaffold or fight in a war, some man had to whether he wanted to or not. People assume a lot these days that a) women actually wanted to do all the things men were expected to and that b) men loved doing all the things they were expected to. I don't know about you but hard labor, total financial responsibility for an entire family and wars don't sound like fun, even as a man.
Maybe you could look at it another way? If you're straight, then you have an excellent way of meeting women through your hobby. IMO, a lot of the things we can be initially insecure about can be superpowers for meeting new people if and when we embrace them.
And I say y'all all the time without having lived a day in the south, because it isn't gendered. Once I knew about not misgendering people and was intensely aware of it being done, I adopted y'all as an easy way of being inclusive.
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PM
Actually I think most professions were male dominated because men were and always have been expected to be employed/work, and women were not always expected to be. Not because 'Patriarchy' was intent upon preventing women from doing it.
Males being expected to be the ones working is
part of a patriarchal society
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PM
But women have always been on the crafty side throughout human history - as in skilled craftspeople - activities like weaving, embroidering, tailoring and making jewellery were some of the earliest human examples of craft and were probably accomplished by women due to the division of hard-to-soft labor between males and females. So if you wanna say males were "professional" jewelers or tailors - I'd bet women were the "unprofessional" or unsung masters for millennia before that.
Yeah there definitely are unsung females out there but that doesn't mean that historically the males don't outweigh the females, particularly in high art and goldsmithing (which historically were cross-over areas, such as benvenuto cellini and lorenzo ghiberti). In terms of bench jewellery skills like diamond setting, raising, polishing and engraving, in my experience there are more men doing it.
Women and crafts have a very interesting history. Of course it was mostly women, particularly affluent women, doing things like hand embroidery and paper cutting, but that's probably also one of the reasons crafts are perceived as less valuable than arts (like painting and sculpture) - crafts are associated with women and aren't as highbrow as fine arts (in a patriarchal society). Crafts are associated with women because women weren't encouraged to do fine arts. They weren't allowed to draw naked life models, for example, and I doubt many women before the turn of the century were entering into apprenticeships in workshops at 13. The RA had 34 founding members, but only two of them were women. There was even an idea that watercolours were for women and oils were for men...
but despite being associated by most people with crafts, and therefore with women, fine jewellery and goldsmithing historically were artisanal like painting and sculpture, and were male dominated (with a few exceptions remembered for being exceptions), and there are still more men in the industry in the UK from what I've seen.
I think women really entered the industry probably about the Arts and Crafts movement in the late 19th century. There are a lot of female goldsmiths who are successful and well known now, but up until less than two hundred years ago, i don't think there were any. There's a reason one of the oldest guilds in the UK is called the incorporation of hammer
men.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 01:02:22 PMAnd women as celebrated craftspeople? 'Patriarchy' couldn't stop them being so. Ever heard of Artemisia Gentileschi? Famous female painter in the 1600s, when you'd expect that male-dominated environment to have chewed her up and spat her out for even trying. She was famous and celebrated in her own lifetime, joined a prestigious academy of arts and even painted lots of her own interpretations of Biblical women, and a damn good painter... which is more than can be said for the fortunes of some of her male colleagues. Maybe she was lucky, but knowing the art world myself I think it's just determination and skill.
Yeah i've heard of Artemisia Gentileschi, but one female Baroque painter becoming successful doesn't mean that patriarchy doesn't exist. Remember that she had to submit to thumbscrews in order for a court to believe that she wasn't lying about being raped. That doesn't sound like a female friendly society. Also there are female painters like Judith Leyster whose work was attributed to male painters (in Leyster's case Frans Hals) because female painters were so rare that people didn't/ don't believe that they existed. This isn't necessarily because they didn't, but because the bias towards males (i.e. a patriarchal society) meant that they weren't recorded.
People definitely still associate the word 'jewellery' with females and femininity, and it's interesting the difference in what people (who perceive me as female) think i do with my degree, and what they think my cis male boyfriend does with his identical one. Think benvenuto cellini, william morris or CR ashbee for him and etsy.com for me.
I'm not saying goldsmithing 'belongs' to men or that it's even an inherently gendered pursuit at all, i'm just saying i get a lot of misgendering because of my degree and it helps me to remember the history
I never said patriarchal societies didn't exist.
I implied that it has never managed to stop determined women. And truthfully, becoming well known or famous in the world of art isn't a pushover for anyone. Only a very small few people ever get famous enough to be remembered by history out of all the people who've ever lived, and obviously less women would have been recognized because less of them were in the fields of doing things which earned fame. Now I would suggest women outnumber men professionally in the arts in aggregate.
As for art-crafts being historically of less value, because made by women - in most historical societies there were was overall a greater need for the essentials of life than for art. e.g. In a warlike nation, warriors, not artists (whatever their gender), are typically valued more because they are needed more - and rightfully so, in such an environment. And since most major nations and organizations of human beings have been generally warlike throughout human history over land and resources until fairly recently (but still very much at it) I'm not surprised fine arts (or hobby crafts) were never considered particularly important compared to professions like soldiery, construction, farming. When it comes to survival, they are not. Arts thrive in times of safety and prosperity, which is why there's been greater recognition and explosion of it more recently than not. A warrior or politician is going to be held in higher esteem than a cloth-maker, important as the cloth-maker may be, thanks to the human psyche which tends to respect power and require leadership.
So no, I don't think arts and crafts are considered 'lower' because women did them. They are lower because they were able to thrive and advance only when paid for by a stable society. They are not necessities. As an artist myself I know I am only able to make a living out of it because currently there is stability and prosperity enough, and enough people doing other essential things to allow me to pursue it. If something happens that tanks the world economy few people will be considering art and crafts especially needful, and it's not because society looks down on women or what they make.
No, I'm not saying that YOU think that crafts are lower, or that particular arts or crafts are for women I'm saying that it's a documented attitude that is part of the history of art, and it's pretty naive to say that women and their interests aren't looked down upon in society
Also putting 'patriarchy' in inverted commas made it seem like you were trying to be dismissive of the term, if that wasn't your intention, my bad.
My original point was that people perceive J+S to be feminine, and while there are many women in the field (as i mentioned almost the entire goldsmithing department was female), in my experience of the industry beyond people who are still studying or are hobbyist, particularly in the more traditional areas of the field, there are as many or more successful men, and there was definitely a historical bias towards males. I'm not sure anymore what your actual point is. It's nice to come to a support forum and have your personal experiences of your own career dismissed, thanks for that.
I know. But speculation and opinion pieces by people in the art world are a dime a dozen & are not evidence that the entirety of human history and culture thinks and believes arts and crafts are lame because women do them. I also didn't say that women and their interests are not looked down upon by society - I said that in times of less prosperity and safety arts and crafts will be discarded because they are not as important as security, food and shelter. Not because it's a "woman's thing". Arts are disposable and are worth only what somebody is willing to pay for them, and people know this. This is just logical fact and is nothing to do with sexism. Some people may look down on them because women do them, but men also do them, and on the whole this is not why arts are not considered "important".
I am not dismissive of the term Patriarchy but the phrase "because Patriarchy" I see used often to assert that a patriarchy exists and always has existed for the sole purpose of screwing women over to the benefit of men, and use it as an excuse for everything. I added that patriarchal societies screw everyone over, including men, and that there are likely many reasons behind why women were less represented in the arts beside mustache-twirling Patriarchs. Historically it was difficult for anybody to get into the arts unless they were part of a family business having done it for generations, or managed to snag a rich patron. Usually the church or a royal family for things like painting and jewelry making and would have been subject to the whims and tastes of the patron. Being an artist or artisan in Michelangelo's or Mozart's time was not so flattering as today. It was considered menial work and creativity took a back seat to the patron's demands most of the time. When you look into it, it's not surprising only the most gifted or determined people tended to stick it out as a profession, and those born into it had little choice.
Also, what? Who dismissed your personal experiences? What I countered was your assertions about 'Patriarchy' preventing women ever being celebrated as artists, but I'm sure you were not around in the historical past so me talking about that, or about society at large, hardly dismisses your personal experiences. I wasn't talking about your career, is that what you find offensive? I don't believe I said anything that was personally offensive or dismissive.
I am not denying men historically held more professions and recognitions, but as I said those were tougher times when people's lives were typically short, women had many children early and men had to work to support them. There are logical reasons why women weren't in the workplace in such numbers, and therefore why there were less professionally recognized artistic women; only as quality of life and longevity of life have improved have both men and women been freed from rigid roles and divisions of labor. And that's not really because some 'Patriarchy' concocted it... it's because biology shackled women with having children and men with providing for them, and both with the burden of doing it in order to be seen as productive members of their society. Then women being frowned upon for wanting to be artists not mothers, and men being frowned on for wanting to do the same and not being lucrative workers would come in. It's less some mass-organized evil scheme to keep women from ever doing anything 'great' and more just the unfortunate state of human biology. That's where sexism itself ultimately comes from.
And if you want proof of that, look at the developed world. Women can be artists, can become recognized, and likely outnumber men in the field now. The necessity of procreating in a harsh world is not there anymore, and they are not 'held back' as artists/artisans. I can see that with my own eyes.
Ah, so you were derailing the thread to talk about the concept of patriarchy then??? why?
Well you brought it up in a thread about hobbies. Was that necessary?
It was mentioned, I decided to talk about it too. What's the problem?
It's odd that my original point was that people are aware that women existed in the arts, to the extent that they assume some of them are feminine by definition, and you decided that I needed to be educated on the definition of patriarchy, and to be reminded that people are aware that women existed in the arts? I'm aware that there are women in the arts now as I've said already twice. This is WHY people associate what I do with women. I just like to remember that this is a relatively new notion. Basically, all you disagreed with was the use of the phrase 'because patriarchy', enough to write three irrelevant paragraphs about it.
I mention patriarchy in passing - literally two words in parenthesis - and you need to write three paragraphs about it... yeah I derailed the thread. Sorry everyone.
The fact that patriarchy is tangential to my post, not the point of the post or the thread, is what makes it seem dismissive to only take that word from the post. I mean your initial response to me asserting that I use the large number of male goldsmiths to shake some of my dysphoria about my work was either to say that actually people are correct to assert that women are more numerous in the field, or to nitpick about the word 'patriarchy'? Neither of those seem like great responses to me, maybe I'm oversensitive, but okay. Now we've all head about some interesting history. I suppose that's a hobby too.
Yes, you do sound rather oversensitive about it.
:police: Don't let this become personal and stay on topic :police:
Okay, to get back on topic: I like to collect china, particularly monochrome delftware style stuff. I plant small cacti in teacups. Tiny, delicate teacups that are associated with women - like a lot of interior design items - and (often) designed by men. Some of my favourites are Josiah Spode and Josiah Wedgwood.
I also get really uncomfortable in fabric shops or the haberdashery section in my local department store, because I only really see women there, there's only older women working there, and it seems like a really gendered space, despite the fact that a lot of those fabrics were designed by men like William Morris and Kaffe Fassett. It might not be a logical way to think but dysphoria isn't always logical. I don't really pass and I feel like if I'm appearing androgynous the fact that I'm looking at ribbons or flowery wallpaper pushes me over the edge into female when people see me.
It helps me to remember that if there are men designing it, there are men buying it too. It's also okay for a masculine person to design things for feminine ones. Alexander McQueen said some pretty cool things about jewellery.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 08, 2016, 07:32:40 PM
I never said patriarchal societies didn't exist.
I implied that it has never managed to stop determined women. And truthfully, becoming well known or famous in the world of art isn't a pushover for anyone. Only a very small few people ever get famous enough to be remembered by history out of all the people who've ever lived, and obviously less women would have been recognized because less of them were in the fields of doing things which earned fame. Now I would suggest women outnumber men professionally in the arts in aggregate.
As for art-crafts being historically of less value, because made by women - in most historical societies there were was overall a greater need for the essentials of life than for art. e.g. In a warlike nation, warriors, not artists (whatever their gender), are typically valued more because they are needed more - and rightfully so, in such an environment. And since most major nations and organizations of human beings have been generally warlike throughout human history over land and resources until fairly recently (but still very much at it) I'm not surprised fine arts (or hobby crafts) were never considered particularly important compared to professions like soldiery, construction, farming. When it comes to survival, they are not. Arts thrive in times of safety and prosperity, which is why there's been greater recognition and explosion of it more recently than not. A warrior or politician is going to be held in higher esteem than a cloth-maker, important as the cloth-maker may be, thanks to the human psyche which tends to respect power and require leadership.
So no, I don't think arts and crafts are considered 'lower' because women did them. They are lower because they were able to thrive and advance only when paid for by a stable society. They are not necessities. As an artist myself I know I am only able to make a living out of it because currently there is stability and prosperity enough, and enough people doing other essential things to allow me to pursue it. If something happens that tanks the world economy few people will be considering art and crafts especially needful, and it's not because society looks down on women or what they make.
That's fascinating what kind of art do you do for a living?
Quote from: Peep on April 09, 2016, 03:39:45 PM
Okay, to get back on topic: I like to collect china, particularly monochrome delftware style stuff. I plant small cacti in teacups. Tiny, delicate teacups that are associated with women - like a lot of interior design items - and (often) designed by men. Some of my favourites are Josiah Spode and Josiah Wedgwood.
I also get really uncomfortable in fabric shops or the haberdashery section in my local department store, because I only really see women there, there's only older women working there, and it seems like a really gendered space, despite the fact that a lot of those fabrics were designed by men like William Morris and Kaffe Fassett. It might not be a logical way to think but dysphoria isn't always logical. I don't really pass and I feel like if I'm appearing androgynous the fact that I'm looking at ribbons or flowery wallpaper pushes me over the edge into female when people see me.
It helps me to remember that if there are men designing it, there are men buying it too. It's also okay for a masculine person to design things for feminine ones. Alexander McQueen said some pretty cool things about jewellery.
There were many male tailors throughout history, so don't worry about the fabrics. There were also male gardeners and interior decorators. Men have probably designed more things than women throughout history- not because they're better, but because they didn't have to raise children and were more privileged. I have an interest in interior design, and have thought about going to school for that. If I have a very masculine appearance it will be funny to see me as an interior decorator. Not sure if I'm going to do that or not. Right now I've been staining decks.
Don't worry about your hobbies being seen as feminine. There are many cis men that pay no attention to gender stereotypes.
I might be decorating my next apartment like an arctic aquarium with lots of icy blue in it. It will help me remain cool headed. I love the idea of feng suei.
Quote from: alienbodybuilder on April 10, 2016, 08:46:13 PM
That's fascinating what kind of art do you do for a living?
I'm a sculptor, and comic artist/illustrator. Also occasionally make jewellery.
I suppose when you
must do it, like me, because there is nothing else I can get around here job wise, you learn that many artistic trades relate to each other and training in one can easily lead to another.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on April 08, 2016, 01:58:33 PM
Maybe you could look at it another way? If you're straight, then you have an excellent way of meeting women through your hobby. IMO, a lot of the things we can be initially insecure about can be superpowers for meeting new people if and when we embrace them.
And I say y'all all the time without having lived a day in the south, because it isn't gendered. Once I knew about not misgendering people and was intensely aware of it being done, I adopted y'all as an easy way of being inclusive.
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is veeeeery true--in fact I used to encourage my male teenaged students who had trouble dating girls to take up horse back riding. Their male friends might have made some gay jokes, but they instantly became every girl's dream guy and had dozens of athletic, attractive, wealthy teen girls all over them, LOL! There is definitely something to be said for being a male horseback rider when it comes to getting women. Unfortunately there also tend to be a huge number of socially conservative people who ride horses, so I am not 100% sure that will carry over for me... Here is to hoping, as I am bisexual!
Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding. Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men. Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men. This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport. That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider. But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders). So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals. The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all??? It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!
Quote from: FtMitch on April 11, 2016, 04:14:56 PM
Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding. Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men. Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men. This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport. That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider. But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders). So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals. The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all??? It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!
I used to ride a lot as a child/ early teen and i wanted to pursue it as a career (racing) but didn't because literally everyone said i was too weak to do it. I don't mind that much because I don't really like horse racing any more. But I am the same size as a lot of male jockeys haha
sidenote i used to like wearing my riding body protector a lot because it flattened my chest P:
Quote from: FtMitch on April 11, 2016, 04:14:56 PM
Interestingly enough, all of the comments about goldsmithing apply similarly to horseback riding. Originally a military pursuit, riding slowly became a leisure activity pursued primarily by wealthy men. Over the past fifty years the amateur arenas have filled up with women, but professionals are still primarily men. This is not because men have any advantages that make them better riders but simply due to the traditional nature of the sport. That is slowly fading, but it is certainly interesting to see how women were forcibly kept out of a sport that they are obviously drawn to (since most amateurs are now female) for so long simply do to the idea that it was not appropriate for women to mount a large animal in the way necessary to be an effective rider. But it has VERY quickly become regarded as a female pass time despite its history as a very patriarchal sport (some foxhunts still do not allow women riders). So in very wealthy circles (think top one percenters) it is thought of as a masculine sport (which is were most professional riders come from) and in other socioeconomic groups it is considered feminine because it involves animals. The real question being, why the heck are we gendering this sport at all??? It is neither masculine or feminine, it's just a sport!
I suspect it must be the part of the country you live in. In Arizona horses are still somewhat a way of life if you have the place to keep on. Property that's zoned to allow horses is a premium and there is enough desert access where you can ride that both boys and girls have an interest in horses. Show may be a bit different but there are rodeo completion for both genders if they desire it.
Quote from: Dena on April 11, 2016, 10:57:12 PM
I suspect it must be the part of the country you live in. In Arizona horses are still somewhat a way of life if you have the place to keep on. Property that's zoned to allow horses is a premium and there is enough desert access where you can ride that both boys and girls have an interest in horses. Show may be a bit different but there are rodeo completion for both genders if they desire it.
Oh no you are definitely correct about rodeo-I am from Texas and that is the same way here. I was talking about it from the sense of the Olympic sport, though, so English varieties. Dressage, eventing, show jumping, etc. Western is a whole different sport and culture. I really don't know much about it because I'm not really a fan--I prefer jumping. :)
Hey man, fellow horsey dude here! I've ridden since I was 10 years old, unfortunately my horse was pts last July and I haven't really ridden since.. but I'm planning on getting back into it :) I think it's part of the reason most of my friends have been female over the years cause its such a female-dominated hobby, and I get really sick of the cattiness you can get on yards. Over the years though I've had lots of cis male friends who I've ridden with too, they get a load of stick for doing a "girly" sport so I guess we can look at it like we're just having the issues any other equestrian guy has :P
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 11, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
I'm a sculptor, and comic artist/illustrator. Also occasionally make jewellery.
I suppose when you must do it, like me, because there is nothing else I can get around here job wise, you learn that many artistic trades relate to each other and training in one can easily lead to another.
I'm impressed.
Sorry your having a hard time. People have many times told me "your not trans/manly enough" because I have female dominate hobbies, major, and jobs. I'm a family consumer science education major (a.k.a. home ec teacher) and I knit/paint/cook/garden as hobbies. I think people are more lenient with my "feminine" hobbies/career because I'm gay, I imagine people are even more judgmental towards strait men.
When people give me a hard time I try to remember that I should do what makes me happy no matter what they think and that I make knitting look manly lol :laugh:
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on April 13, 2016, 10:10:29 PM
When people give me a hard time I try to remember that I should do what makes me happy no matter what they think and that I make knitting look manly lol :laugh:
Back when I used to knit more (generally more of a casual sewing/papercraft person), I'd find myself drawn to online patterns from guy knitters. Probably because they were usually less about lace and/or cuteness than a lot of the patterns you find in a casual search.
Quote from: MercenaryElf on April 14, 2016, 10:35:28 PM
Back when I used to knit more (generally more of a casual sewing/papercraft person), I'd find myself drawn to online patterns from guy knitters. Probably because they were usually less about lace and/or cuteness than a lot of the patterns you find in a casual search.
I was really surprised by how many men knit. floral patterns and lace are my favorite. Apparently in the past knitting was mostly done by men and was considered very masculine.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on April 15, 2016, 09:48:32 AM
I was really surprised by how many men knit. floral patterns and lace are my favorite. Apparently in the past knitting was mostly done by men and was considered very masculine.
I knit and I know several bio guys who do. One of them is a big buff military guy. He was making baby socks last time I talked to him, in bright pink. He's awesome.
I actually have lots of "feminine" hobbies. I collect stuffed animals, art, knit, garden, cook, and when I'm stressed out I bake. My spouse knows when he comes home that if I've made pies it's best to leave me alone for a while, even if they smell good.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
Quote from: Ayden on April 15, 2016, 01:30:21 PM
I actually have lots of "feminine" hobbies. I collect stuffed animals, art, knit, garden, cook, and when I'm stressed out I bake. My spouse knows when he comes home that if I've made pies it's best to leave me alone for a while, even if they smell good.
I love plushies (I own far too many) I bake when i'm stressed too but I'm also a stress eater so nothing last very long lol
I haven been often described as having a nurturing personality. and I guess people consider it womanly. The nickname I had at my last job was "mom", I picked it up after I told a coworker not to chew hard candy because it was bad for there teeth and they said "what are you? my mom?" and the nickname stuck. I don't think they indented it as a insult or were disregarding my gender identity, it i think they were just joking around and didn't think it through. (i really didn't mind anyways)
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on April 15, 2016, 02:16:36 PM
I love plushies (I own far too many) I bake when i'm stressed too but I'm also a stress eater so nothing last very long lol
I haven been often described as having a nurturing personality. and I guess people consider it womanly. The nickname I had at my last job was "mom", I picked it up after I told a coworker not to chew hard candy because it was bad for there teeth and they said "what are you? my mom?" and the nickname stuck. I don't think they indented it as a insult or were disregarding my gender identity, it i think they were just joking around and didn't think it through. (i really didn't mind anyways)
I never eat a thing I make. Okay, i eat some but not much. I usually give it all away. It was great when I was a school teacher but not so great now that I can't give it to anyone. My partner keeps telling me to do something else since he ends up eating all of it. He has a high metabolism though so he never gains a pound.
I basically raised the first three brothers I have. The older two call me Sis still even though they know and are really supporting of transition. The youngest one mostly calls me Sis but when he calls me upset he still calls me Mom. He used to when he was a kid and it's just stuck. It doesn't really bother me, because I know the feelings behind the titles.
At my old job I was a preschool teacher affectionately known as "Ni-Ni" (big brother), but when I came in with baked stuff I was "Ni-Ni mama". If only those little butts knew I baked half that because they gave me grey hairs.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk