Have you ever paid attention to women in the street? I'm sure you have... unless I'm weird :). Well there's a lot of trans women, with their wide eyebrows, and their square chins and their totally male-looking faces, yet they have long hair (some) and are wearing women clothes. They problably don't worry about passing or not, or maybe they do, but there they are living their real lifes and getting on with the difficulties.
In all seriousness, of course they're all probably cis but it gives you a new perspective on the "Will I pass?" issue. There's a lot of cis out there that "don't pass", yet no one cares.
Exactly true! I remember my relief when I realized that about VI's women. I also found out recently that 46% of women have an "apple" body shape which means wide shoulders and narrow hips. :-D
Very true.
Cis-women come in all shapes and sizes.. so are not so pretty others are stunning.. thats life
For us trans-women i think we are very hard on ourselves, so if we dont feel perfect we say we dont pass... I think it does not matter.. and I dont think the world really cares.. then again dont make yourself an easy target, by going out in a female wear and you have beard.. then you are looking for trouble.
I think you'll find that as trans people we are usually much more aware of the "give away" traits and can pick them up very easily in others...it's our transdar. Cis people on the other hand are close to oblivious to many of those traits except where they may be particularly exaggerated or obvious. To them we "pass" because they are clueless plus the majority of trans people go out of their way to minimise those traits that might stand out to cis people as being atypical of their identified gender. So keep in mind that just because a trans person "doesn't pass" from your point of view it doesn't mean they don't pass. Over the years I've seen many trans people in public who, to me, stand out and yet none of the cis muggles around them bat an eyelid. Clearly they passed even though I picked them.
But yes, plenty of cis women can have masculine features. I recently saw an elderly woman with close to a full beard!
Good points. I know the only time I get clocked is when I feel self conscious about my appearance. Other people pick up on my discomfort and the negative vibes I am putting out rather than my appearance. Let's face it, in most situations in public most people wouldn't notice another human standing next to them if that person were on fire.
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Women come in all shapes and sizes. Some look very masculine as evidenced by the recent story on the news about a lesbian that was harassed in the ladies room at a McDonald's because people thought she was a man.
I used to work with a young lady - from the back she was tall and she had a classic masculine shape with narrow hips and wide shoulders. When you saw her from the front you saw a very pretty, delicate featured woman that was quite obviously female. Its the luck of the draw of your genetics.
Wanna see a wide spectrum of femininity? Go visit your local Walmart on a busy weekend.
I see very few trans woman in public but that's because I have an extensive check list of features I go through before declaring them transgender. I see a number of CIS women with masculine features and they are fully comfortable with their identity.
Something to consider is the statement "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". When I transitioned, we only figured that there were in the 10's of thousands of us in the world. My mind set was and is that we aren't very common so I default CIS unless enough features yell trans. Many of you are exposed to a world where we are much more common so you are far more sensitive to somebody with a few details that are different.
Quote from: allisonsteph on April 09, 2016, 07:47:14 AM
Let's face it, in most situations in public most people wouldn't notice another human standing next to them if that person were on fire.
This is so true. I'm usually so busy worrying about myself that I don't notice anybody. It's the same for everyone else too.
I think people notice more than you think they do; they may not show it, but they do notice. And that's ok; we are who we are.
Quote from: Eva Marie on April 09, 2016, 11:50:13 AM
Wanna see a wide spectrum of femininity? Go visit your local Walmart on a busy weekend.
This is, to me, the 5th circle of hell. :icon_burn: :icon_flamed: :icon_burn: No thx~
Quote from: kittenpower on April 09, 2016, 04:35:56 PM
I think people notice more than you think they do; they may not show it, but they do notice. And that's ok; we are who we are.
You're my forum hero btw. :icon_caffine:
Thanks, I like you too 😊
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 09, 2016, 05:29:25 AM
Over the years I've seen many trans people in public who, to me, stand out and yet none of the cis muggles around them bat an eyelid.
"Muggles"! I love it!
I am sorry, but this post couldn't be further from true. Most women fall just fine in the feminine spectrum, and if there's one who doesn't, she might be gender atypical or seen as weird by others. A woman who is a very masculine faced will most likely be VERY distressed at that thought, especially if she's misgendered in daily life or thought of as cross-dresser, and face pressure to conform to feminine facial standards, thus pursue cosmetic surgery. Just like a woman who's very flat chested will face unconscious pressure to enhance her breasts, especially in a world where breasts are over-sexualized.
This whole "passing is confidence" motto is not true and could delude some people. There are sexually dismorphic differences between males and females, like face size and shape, forehead, chin, which can't just be hidden, only maybe with the aid of surgery. Even then, there's still body shape, NATURAL manneirisms, and voice. These can't be transformed so easily. With the help of HRT, a petite young body can become a curvaceous woman's body, but a bulky, muscular, hairy body will change much more slowly. These features cannot be easily undone, even with makeup, false nails, wigs or long hair and feminine clothing. If a trans woman has two or more of these features, she will not pass easily. Whereas a natal born woman will pass even in the most frumpy clothes, bad hair, no makeup, because her sexually dismorphic features are female.
You know you truly pass when you can leave your house on a bad hair day, no makeup, no bra, large clothes and people will still call you miss or m'am.
Quote from: Aurorasky on April 10, 2016, 02:10:18 PM
I am sorry, but this post couldn't be further from true. Most women fall just fine in the feminine spectrum, and if there's one who doesn't, she might be gender atypical or seen as weird by others. A woman who is a very masculine faced will most likely be VERY distressed at that thought, especially if she's misgendered in daily life or thought of as cross-dresser, and face pressure to conform to feminine facial standards, thus pursue cosmetic surgery. Just like a woman who's very flat chested will face unconscious pressure to enhance her breasts, especially in a world where breasts are over-sexualized.
This whole "passing is confidence" motto is not true and could delude some people. There are sexually dismorphic differences between males and females, like face size and shape, forehead, chin, which can't just be hidden, only maybe with the aid of surgery. Even then, there's still body shape, NATURAL manneirisms, and voice. These can't be transformed so easily. With the help of HRT, a petite young body can become a curvaceous woman's body, but a bulky, muscular, hairy body will change much more slowly. These features cannot be easily undone, even with makeup, false nails, wigs or long hair and feminine clothing. If a trans woman has two or more of these features, she will not pass easily. Whereas a natal born woman will pass even in the most frumpy clothes, bad hair, no makeup, because her sexually dismorphic features are female.
You know you truly pass when you can leave your house on a bad hair day, no makeup, no bra, large clothes and people will still call you miss or m'am.
Well then, there are many truths we can share here and mine is that some concepts of passing are not as important as the reality of diversity all around us that people are celebrating here. Confidence isn't everything but sure carries me a long way. I have cisgender female friends that have had more challenges in restrooms than yours truly. Some will/can work on stereotypical conformity all they want. Others take a different path, all good ;D
people are too busy playing with their cell phone to worry even if they're about to be hit by a bus. I saw a guy with a small laptop attached to the handle bars of his bicycle
Quote from: kittenpower on April 09, 2016, 04:35:56 PM
I think people notice more than you think they do; they may not show it, but they do notice. And that's ok; we are who we are.
It's okay, but have you seen the video of the invisible gorilla?
Two quick stories (I promise they're worthwhile) :)
I was at the grocery store recently, and the cashier had all the classic signs that set my transdar a-buzzing. She was about 6 foot tall, big hands, low voice, and a hint of an adams apple. And that's when I noticed that she was pregnant. Soooo...not trans. Not even a little bit.
The other story...a while back I met a friend for dinner, and the poor girl doesn't pass even a little bit. And she wants nothing more in the world. This was early in my transition, but I was starting to figure out that I could blend in pretty well...better than I realized.
So on my way to meeting her I had to walk a few blocks, and I stopped at a store and chatted with the cashier. Not a single sideways glance. So far so good.
I met my friend and we walked another few blocks to the restaurant, and I could FEEL the stares we were getting from all around us. Ten minutes earlier I was invisible, but now I was guilty by association. Or maybe they were only noticing her. Who knows.
But this gave me a real understanding of what she goes through. Now, I'm under no illusion that I'm 100% passable. But I never deal with what she does. And in a weird way I found that encouraging.
Quote from: Aurorasky on April 10, 2016, 02:10:18 PM
I am sorry, but this post couldn't be further from true. Most women fall just fine in the feminine spectrum, and if there's one who doesn't, she might be gender atypical or seen as weird by others. A woman who is a very masculine faced will most likely be VERY distressed at that thought, especially if she's misgendered in daily life or thought of as cross-dresser, and face pressure to conform to feminine facial standards, thus pursue cosmetic surgery. Just like a woman who's very flat chested will face unconscious pressure to enhance her breasts, especially in a world where breasts are over-sexualized.
This whole "passing is confidence" motto is not true and could delude some people. There are sexually dismorphic differences between males and females, like face size and shape, forehead, chin, which can't just be hidden, only maybe with the aid of surgery. Even then, there's still body shape, NATURAL manneirisms, and voice. These can't be transformed so easily. With the help of HRT, a petite young body can become a curvaceous woman's body, but a bulky, muscular, hairy body will change much more slowly. These features cannot be easily undone, even with makeup, false nails, wigs or long hair and feminine clothing. If a trans woman has two or more of these features, she will not pass easily. Whereas a natal born woman will pass even in the most frumpy clothes, bad hair, no makeup, because her sexually dismorphic features are female.
You know you truly pass when you can leave your house on a bad hair day, no makeup, no bra, large clothes and people will still call you miss or m'am.
thank you for your refreshingly honest pragmatic and realistic feedback. Being visibly trans is a liability in our world. full stop. This is independent of one;s personal sense of worth or confidence. Either you give zero consideration to how people in society view you, or you live in the real world where you have to earn a living and depend on others to get through life, hoping that their knowledge of trans people is up to speed and they have basic decency and politeness. As you know this is only a subset of society. Not passing is a daily weight and struggle, both internally with how one sees oneself when they look in the mirror, and externally when they are looking for work, ordering at a restaurant, walking in the park, or meeting new people. This is something a 6'2 cis woman with larger than average jaw, for example, does not and will never experience.
Quote from: Fresas con Nata on April 09, 2016, 04:04:03 AM
Have you ever paid attention to women in the street? I'm sure you have... unless I'm weird :). Well there's a lot of trans women, with their wide eyebrows, and their square chins and their totally male-looking faces, yet they have long hair (some) and are wearing women clothes. They problably don't worry about passing or not, or maybe they do, but there they are living their real lifes and getting on with the difficulties.
In all seriousness, of course they're all probably cis but it gives you a new perspective on the "Will I pass?" issue. There's a lot of cis out there that "don't pass", yet no one cares.
Yes and no.
It can be kind of obvious. There's a difference between cis ugly and non passing. In a city its one thing, but outside, tbh its not good.
I missed a flight and it was too late to go back into town, so I checked into a suburban hotel. I went out immediately to find a bar, and literally banged into a trans woman in a terrible curtain of a dress, and a joke shop wig. I found a bar, and drank to the extent that I cried for her.
My reaction of course says far more about me than it did about her. There was this brave soul going about her business. And I judged. In central London I might have noticed her, only because of my own predicament, but she'd have simply merged into the scenery like so many others and I'd have given her no more thought. But in a suburban town near a budget airport, my only reaction was to double down on finding a drink, and crying in a corner. She's still with me months later.
That's because instead of being one of several million freaks (I include myself in that) she was the only one. Or maybe one of two (my great fear). Everyone else was in their cheap high street clothes or their black burkas. Unless you count the local teenagers smoking weed and trying to draw attention.
The bar was a gay bar, and it was with some disappointment that I evidently passed. Very nice looking men with no interest in me, and three lesbians who came over to introduce themselves, that I in turn had no interest in.
Quote from: noleen111 on April 09, 2016, 05:19:33 AM
Very true.
Cis-women come in all shapes and sizes.. so are not so pretty others are stunning.. thats life
For us trans-women i think we are very hard on ourselves, so if we dont feel perfect we say we dont pass... I think it does not matter.. and I dont think the world really cares.. then again dont make yourself an easy target, by going out in a female wear and you have beard.. then you are looking for trouble.
Can I just say in a very positive and affirming way, that's the first post of yours that I've wholeheartedly agreed with.
Quote from: Fresas con Nata on April 09, 2016, 04:04:03 AM
Have you ever paid attention to women in the street? I'm sure you have... unless I'm weird :). Well there's a lot of trans women, with their wide eyebrows, and their square chins and their totally male-looking faces, yet they have long hair (some) and are wearing women clothes. They problably don't worry about passing or not, or maybe they do, but there they are living their real lifes and getting on with the difficulties.
In all seriousness, of course they're all probably cis but it gives you a new perspective on the "Will I pass?" issue. There's a lot of cis out there that "don't pass", yet no one cares.
Most trans women don't pass. As for cis women, it's about 20% or so that don't pass from what I've encountered. Some cis women, just look bad. An example of this is Michelle Carter who is a cis women but has very masculine features.
Life's a mirror.
Quote from: Angieisalone on August 08, 2017, 04:56:34 PM
Most trans women don't pass. As for cis women, it's about 20% or so that don't pass from what I've encountered. Some cis women, just look bad. An example of this is Michelle Carter who is a cis women but haves very masculine features.
Most TSes I have met in person don't pass 100%... My standard is thst if I can read them then some non-trees will be able to as well...but one can nor judge only by those they have met.
Like tends to associate with like... and I don't pass 100% and I have always said that...'
In my experience those who pass very well, and particularly those who are mostly stealth tend to only associate with others who pass as well as they do, and if they are stealth only a very few if any.
While in some ways that is unfortunate, I totally understand why that is, and I can't begrudge them that. Most who transition and have surgery don't do it to be TS, we do it because we know ourselves to be women and want to lives our lives as normal woman *IF POSSIBLE*. The disappearing post-op phenomenon is real, and is just people getting on with their lives, tried of all the drama.
So if one does not pass well (or goes around saying you don't and never will), your likelihood of meeting those who are very passable is very small... given that I can't judge how many/ what percent pass that well . I think it is a minority - but I have no way of knowing for sure - and neither do you because of how you talk about yourself.
At least that is how I see it.
I've been living in Thailand since 2010, where hormones aren't often used by transgender people and mixed gender presentations are acceptable-men with beards in dresses for instance. I don't have to know someone's gender anyway, since people self-gender with reflexive pronouns as they speak.
In the US, I wouldn't try to gender masculine-appearing women because many bull dykes dress and behave like men while identifying as female and ciswomen routinely dress in men's clothing. I suppose an obvious Adam's apple might be a clue, but transwomen can have them shaved, or hide them with a scarf.
Guess we can't have nice things. Thread locked. :police: