Hey guys, I'm not overly active here, but I'm definitely browsing on the reg. I was wondering if some of you would be able to help me out with something.
I'll be involved with an upcoming feminist conference and I'm looking to start a conversation about trans (specially FTM) inclusiveness within feminist circles. There will be many topics covered, but I'd like to hear from you folks and what you wish could be said to educate and promote the inclusivity of trans men within a feminist context. I've been circling around the idea of a newfound masculine privilege, as in the way my life has changed this past year since identifying and passion as male. But surely there are other issues I have not thought about!
I appreciate any input you guys have to offer! ✌🏼️
This is such an interesting topic!
A few thoughts from someone who is at the beginning of their transition:
-I look forward to being a feminist man where my appreciation of women doesn't come from this bitter place of trying to be a different kind of woman and always trying to prove to others something about women. I think it could be liberating to be able to be a feminist but to not be seen as a woman.
-The visibility of trans men in my opinion is really important to feminism and the intersectionality of trans women. When people only think of trans women when they think of transgender people it creates an unbalanced concept of what trans is. The bathroom laws being passed are a good example of how most average folk don't even realize that trans men exist.
-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).
Another feminist issue: the invalidation of trans identities among certain feminists (the trans-exclusive and "gender critical" ones.)
We mostly hear about them invalidating trans women's identities, but they also do it to trans men. Frequently, trans men are denounced as traitors and supporters of patriarchy or, at best, deluded by internalized misogyny.
I'm recalling Ophelia Benson getting in a twitter squabble with one of the few remaining abortion providers in the USA because the abortion provider dared to speak of "people who can get pregnant" rather than "women."
Also, the infamous Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was happy to admit trans men, despite excluding trans women for supposedly being men. While it's nice not to be excluded, in context it amounts to a denial of trans men's gender identity.
Fortunately, my impression is that such feminists are a small and dying minority.
Another (less specifically feminist) issue:
There seems to be a persistent tendency among lesbian and gay communities to not recognize trans men's identity. E.g., admitting trans men to "women only" events. Or a trans man of my acquaintance who has been active in our local LGBT center and has been consistently and repeatedly misgendered by some of the gay men who are active there. It's particularly difficult for him since he identifies as a gay man (androphilic, in case it isn't clear.) He finds the gay (gay male?) community worse in this respect than the cis community.
Made a post and I don't know if it was deleted or if I didn't send post.
I would advise against this conversation at a feminist conference. I feel like trans men are over represented in feminist spaces while trans women are severely under represented.
I don't know that you shouldn't give the speech, but I agree that trans men are often over represented while trans women are under represented, and I think that this mostly comes from people's subconscious denial of our genders. So I think you should be careful if being misgendered bothers you--many of the people at the conference may be accepting of you being a feminist without question simply because they don't actually see you as 100% male. That is the reason I stopped going to an LGBT church--too many people there had a very hard time with accepting that I was male (subconsciously). As in they acknowledged it, but their doubts came out the way subconscious hold ups do. I think the reason LG people and feminists sometimes have a harder time accepting it fully than liberal cis straight people (who may be feminists but are not feminist activists) is because their identities are tied more strongly to gender ideals and issues than cis straight people, who often haven't even THOUGHT that much about gender issues and, therefore, have an easier time merging the idea with their subconscious beliefs. Actually, THAT might be an interesting topic: the effect of one's subconscious feelings regarding gender and its effect on how accepting one is of trans people, male and female. We already know that sometimes straight cis men are more accepting of trans men than trans women because they have been raised in a society that degrades any sort of feminine qualities. I can't tell you how many men I have met who have NO problem with me but get uncomfortable if you bring up trans women. Likely because they either do see me as man or they see me as a woman dressed as a man, something that is not considered a "perversion" the way a man dressed as a woman is--which is how they absolutely think of trans women. There is a certain type of feminist who is the same way, just with variations on why they have a hold up against trans people. (Note I am not talking about the majority of feminists here, as NONE of my feminist friends deny that trans people are their respective genders.)
Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 10:19:58 AM
Made a post and I don't know if it was deleted or if I didn't send post.
I would advise against this conversation at a feminist conference. I feel like trans men are over represented in feminist spaces while trans women are severely under represented.
Yes, trans women are under represented in feminist spaces but I disagree that it's trans
men who need to make room for them. It's cis women in feminist spaces who need to make room for trans women and understand that they are the same with trans women facing additional challenges to cis women.
Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).
Yes yes yes, this this
I was at a "feminist" panel (guess they were TERFs before the name) around 2001 where one of the panels literally told a trans man to his face that he was taking on male privilege. Trans men as the Quislings of feminism. Well, gee, if it was that easy to get off the bus, wouldn't more women do it?
I worry about this male privilege thing frequently. Apparently I don't pass at all right now, but when I do, I will have to change my personal style because I will be a white male in the South. I have cis male friends who are radicals who manage to thread that needle, but I still worry.
My late grandmother: Why do you have to wear men's clothes? Why can't you be a strong woman?
Because I'm not a woman. I'm not. Never have been. Don't imagine I will be. And when someone says of me I accomplished something as a woman, I feel like a fraud.
Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Yes, trans women are under represented in feminist spaces but I disagree that it's trans men who need to make room for them. It's cis women in feminist spaces who need to make room for trans women and understand that they are the same with trans women facing additional challenges to cis women.
Kinda all sounds like this is going to end up being a big "what about the men?!" presentation tbh
It seems to me transwomen are usually the subject of interest when the media speak of transgender and transsexual folk. Are you sure transwomen are underrepresented out there? In my experience it's much more difficult to find information, books, studies, shows etc. on FTM than MTF. Perhaps I have what's been said here wrong or taken it in the wrong context. But it seems until very recently that FTM are underrepresented just about everywhere. Even on forums like this. (Are there any FTM staff members?)
Quite honestly I believe male and female privilege balances itself out if you look into the details and evidence, and actually falls in favor of women when it comes to safety and survival. Society may take men more seriously in some matters, but it sure cares a whole lot more for women's safety and well being than men's. You're not so much taking on the reams of male privilege and joining the non-stop party some people think the world is for men so much as shouldering greater responsibility and culpability for your actions, and the many expectations society places on men just as it does on women, including the fact that if you have problems as a man, no-one cares of course. I'm not sure what you could say to them unless you are going to agree with the general feminist narrative that men still have it so easy and women are still being oppressed and held back. Would they be interested in a transman's lived experience as a man? Would they want to hear about how being a man also comes with cons as well as pros?
Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
This is such an interesting topic!
A few thoughts from someone who is at the beginning of their transition:
-I look forward to being a feminist man where my appreciation of women doesn't come from this bitter place of trying to be a different kind of woman and always trying to prove to others something about women. I think it could be liberating to be able to be a feminist but to not be seen as a woman.
-The visibility of trans men in my opinion is really important to feminism and the intersectionality of trans women. When people only think of trans women when they think of transgender people it creates an unbalanced concept of what trans is. The bathroom laws being passed are a good example of how most average folk don't even realize that trans men exist.
-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).
Agree with all of this.
Twenty years ago (when I was 17 and didn't really have words to describe my transness), I decided that as long as I could pass as a straight woman, I would keep the fact that I felt like I was a man to myself. I also decided to be the best feminist I could and to break as many stereotypes as I could... and I did... but in spite of that, I still hate being treated as a woman and I have struggled to reconcile the two. I have also struggled with the fact that I don't really like spending time with women. It is awkward all around.
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Quote from: Asche on April 21, 2016, 10:07:38 AM
Another feminist issue: the invalidation of trans identities among certain feminists (the trans-exclusive and "gender critical" ones.)
We mostly hear about them invalidating trans women's identities, but they also do it to trans men. Frequently, trans men are denounced as traitors and supporters of patriarchy or, at best, deluded by internalized misogyny.
I'm recalling Ophelia Benson getting in a twitter squabble with one of the few remaining abortion providers in the USA because the abortion provider dared to speak of "people who can get pregnant" rather than "women."
Also, the infamous Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was happy to admit trans men, despite excluding trans women for supposedly being men. While it's nice not to be excluded, in context it amounts to a denial of trans men's gender identity.
Fortunately, my impression is that such feminists are a small and dying minority.
Another (less specifically feminist) issue:
There seems to be a persistent tendency among lesbian and gay communities to not recognize trans men's identity. E.g., admitting trans men to "women only" events. Or a trans man of my acquaintance who has been active in our local LGBT center and has been consistently and repeatedly misgendered by some of the gay men who are active there. It's particularly difficult for him since he identifies as a gay man (androphilic, in case it isn't clear.) He finds the gay (gay male?) community worse in this respect than the cis community.
I am also attracted to men and I have to say that I've encountered the same thing.
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Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 01:37:29 PM
Kinda all sounds like this is going to end up being a big "what about the men?!" presentation tbh
Well, I hope not. I don't see why trans men couldn't be feminist allies.
Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 03:07:48 PM
Well, I hope not. I don't see why trans men couldn't be feminist allies.
I think they can be allies to feminists, or allies to women but I don't feel like there's a need for a workshop dedicated to men at a feminist con if that makes sense...
Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women, particularly in feminist and lesbian spaces. You could talk about how despite being men, trans men are often included in lesbian spaces, where trans women aren't.
I feel that the presence of trans women in the media isn't always positive - that the reason that there's more trans feminine people on tv is that society is more interested in what amab people do - which is lowkey misgendering and liked to femmephobia and toxic masculinity. Some people respond more to afab people being 'strong' or 'not like other girls' but for amab people to be feminine is seen as more negative, trans or cis.
It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.
You could also talk about how some trans men internalize misogyny to the extent that they don't believe that feminism is necessary at all.
Also I feel that while I have the experience of being perceived as female, I haven't experienced being female, because I'm not. For example, I don't want my chest, or to see it or to have anyone see it, so I don't know what it's like to want to go topless as a female and be unable to, or to be punished for trying to breast feed in public, etc. However I do know about how badly bras are designed and how women's clothes rarely have pockets, what it's like to feel under threat from the male gaze, etc.
Could you invite a trans woman to join your talk? You could compare the experience of gaining versus loosing male privilege. I don't know if i would do a talk/attend a specifically feminist event unless it was intended to be mixed gender wise (ie trans men weren't the only men there) and unless i could be sure it wasn't an unintentional misgendering, and unless i knew there'd be trans women there too.
Sorry this is vague - this is another reason why I wouldn't want to be the one to try talk about it! I hope i gave you some ideas though
Thank you all so much for the input! I look forward to sitting down and reading more in depth.
It is worth mentioning that this will be an inclusive panel that will be formed by trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals. I also live in a smaller city, so the feminist circles are fairly welcoming and well-aquatinted! Diversification is encouraged by this organizers of this conference, so I'm approaching this without much intimidation and moreso with anticipation!
Quote from: Peep on April 21, 2016, 05:06:11 PM
It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.
A friend of mine who is non binary amab recently had a man crudely attempt to pick them up when they were wearing a skirt (but in all honesty presenting more mixed, that's their preference). They are married with two kids and work in academia and it's 2016.
We have a long way to go in countering this stupidity.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 03:21:19 PM
I think they can be allies to feminists, or allies to women but I don't feel like there's a need for a workshop dedicated to men at a feminist con if that makes sense...
Why not? Men can be feminists too. Hell, men need to be feminists too. I strongly defend the notion that feminism is for men too.
Beware the TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). The Internet makes them out to be more common than they are, but I have met a couple, for my sins, and they're vile. Worse still are the "feminists" who support transsexuals in general, but exclude trans men. I have met a lot of those.
I think one of the biggest issues with feminism and trans men is the door slammed shut notion. in many cases when a trans man comes out, feminism shuts the door on him straight away as they are now men and 'recieve male privilege'; But as they have just come out they aren't perceived as men and therefore don't recieve (or recieve in small parts) 'passing'/male privilege.
Once a trans man 'passes' he falls under the protection of male/'passing' privilege - more so if he's stealth - but in the in-between stages and in the cases of those who don't want to or cant transition, they don't have that protection; but they also don't have the protection of feminism either. I think with feminism and trans men there need to be /some/ space for them, but not necessarily the same as cis women and trans women; at least not in all areas (in things like reproductive/abortion rights trans men - provided they're still fertile and have a uterus - should be allowed a voice just as much as cis women and trans women should take the sidelines; as this is an issue that concerns people born with uterus', at least right now anyway).
Trans men should be allowed to talk in feminism on the things that concern them specifically, but they shouldn't be able to talk over other peoples voices on issues that don't concern them or don't concern them anymore.
Trans men should be able to have a safe space under feminism while transitioning/not-transitioning and are at their most vulnerable however trans men who 'pass' and recieve male/'passing' privilege need to take a more sideline and supporting role - especially on issues that don't affect then.
*I put 'passing' in quotation marks as I don't generally agree with the idea of passing/having to pass but its the only way to explain it.
I'm sure this has already been addressed in this thread (I've only read bits and pieces), but I struggled for a very long time fearing that I was trans because of internalized misogyny, and I wanted male privilege. I felt ashamed of myself that I couldn't be a strong female figure. After all, being raised and socialized as female, I was always told to aspire to be strong, to not feel shame as being a woman and to embrace my woman-ness and feminine features. So, when I realized I was trans, it was kind of a punch in the face. I already knew men (speaking in broad aspects) had privilege over women in society, and I kept calling myself weak for wanting to be a man- I was a woman, and in this day and age, I'm supposed to be proud of that. I tried convincing myself nearly constantly that I was a strong woman, and that my feelings of wanting to be a man would disappear. They didn't.
I just couldn't help but feel so ashamed. Women are amazingly strong. They face so much poo and hardship in their lives, and I wanted so badly to be like them. I wanted so badly to be an inspiring female role model, but I knew I just couldn't be. I'm not a woman.
I know I'll eventually gain male privilege once I transition. I also know being male won't be a walk in the park, either. I'm aware I'm more prone to violent attacks as a man, especially a trans man. If I'm raped as man, especially if I'm raped by a woman, nobody would take me seriously because I should have "enjoyed it".
I'm almost certain I'm not alone in this. In fact, I have a feeling this is a huge controversy when it comes to trans men and feminism. TERFs don't help, either.
Trans men are often victims of sexism by people who deny our gender identity or aren't aware of our actual gender identity at all, so if we are considered women by sexist people, we might face sexism just like cis women do.
The trans exclusive radical feminist theory that trans men are traitors and want to gain male privilege needs to stop and is utter poo. While some trans men are sexist or even misogynyst (this just has to do with sexism in society and a tendency to embrace sexism among men - both cis and trans), many others are feminist. I am a feminist now. A pretty determined and strong one, yelling at people when they get offensive with their misogyny. I don't hate the female gender. I had issues with women, which made me feel a bit harsh towards them, but now I learned that my bad experiences with women don't mean all women are like that.
I love the female gender. I love both cis and trans women. I dont mean it in a romantic or sexual way only. I just like women, period. Sometimes I prefer women to men even if they tend to be different from me and have different interests and hobbies. The idea that we trans men just hate ourselves and women is ridiculous. Plus, we don't go through discrimination, suffering, seeing doctors, therapists, getting hormones and surgeries and spending money and changing our bodies just to gain male privilege!!! It's absurd. It makes no sense. I am sure cis women would like to have the same privileges as men, but they'd never go through hrt and surgeries to get their bodies to be male!!!!!
I guess it's a small minority within the feminist movement, but this just needs to end. We are not women. We are not traitors. All of this is extremely invalidating to all trans people, not just trans men.
Trans men shouldn't be in women only spaces. Trans men are not women. No matter if they are pre everything or have transitioned/are in the process of transitioning (or never want to transition). Women only spaces should be for cis women and trans women only. Period. No trans men allowed because we are not women. Including trans men in women only spaces means they deny who we are and consider us women. Excluding trans women means they deny them. Women only spaces that include trans men and exclude trans women are highly transphobic and should have no place in 3rd wave feminism.
Quote from: jossam on April 29, 2016, 09:25:18 PM
The trans exclusive radical feminist theory that trans men are traitors and want to gain male privilege needs to stop and is utter poo. While some trans men are sexist or even misogynyst (this just has to do with sexism in society and a tendency to embrace sexism among men - both cis and trans), many others are feminist. I am a feminist now. A pretty determined and strong one, yelling at people when they get offensive with their misogyny. I don't hate the female gender. I had issues with women, which made me feel a bit harsh towards them, but now I learned that my bad experiences with women don't mean all women are like that.
I love the female gender. I love both cis and trans women. I dont mean it in a romantic or sexual way only. I just like women, period. Sometimes I prefer women to men even if they tend to be different from me and have different interests and hobbies. The idea that we trans men just hate ourselves and women is ridiculous. Plus, we don't go through discrimination, suffering, seeing doctors, therapists, getting hormones and surgeries and spending money and changing our bodies just to gain male privilege!!! It's absurd. It makes no sense. I am sure cis women would like to have the same privileges as men, but they'd never go through hrt and surgeries to get their bodies to be male!!!!!
The idea that i'm only trans to gain privilege is extra false for people like me, because being white, young, western and middle class i wasn't really
that disadvantaged to begin with - certainly not enough to make transition some kind of easy option! in fact, i don't think i really understood misogyny until i started transitioning and started getting all this 'oh silly you're not a boy you're just a confused little girl' nonsense
Yeah, that is belittling women to call them confused little girls. On the other hand though, transwomen who transition are more likely to get physically attacked and not just called silly and confused because they were once seen as men.
They both suck, but I know I'd prefer to be called confused than attacked or shot. As a biologically-born female I have the privilege of people not wanting to kill or harm me anywhere near as much just because they think I'm a woman.
The way I (and other feminists) interpret it is that whatever is feminine is seen as negative in our (western) society. It's seen as weak, shallow and even disgusting. And it's difficult to get rid of years of brainwashing telling us that being feminine is disgusting and that men and women are not equal (no equal rights). Patriarchy and its beliefs are so deep rooted in our minds that many people act sexist without even realizing it or they might even think they are being nice. This "nice sexism" is a particularly subtle form of sexism and it's called benevolent sexism. Example: "ladies first". It's particularly hard to unmask because it is very subtle and it is considered chivalry. It assumes every woman is a delicate little flower that we all need to put on a pedestal. People might think it means considering women superior since they are told "ladies first" and other chivalrous things. Surprise! It's nothing positive.
Maybe it was nice and had a specific function in the Middle Ages where knights wanted to find their ladies and it was their way to flirt and get her to fall in love. It is a Middle Ages thing. It's gone.
No need to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. We should open/hold doors open for everyone, regardless of gender. We should be nice to everyone and we should help anyone who could use some help. We should only get up and give our seats to old people, pregnant people and people with disabilities, but not to healthy young women just because they are women because they don't faint or die if they don't find a seat on a bus, do they? The assumption that women or more generally female bodied individuals are all delicate and whiny and weak is an incredibly sexist notion.
Obviously, a trans man who is considered a woman by others especially pre transition can experience all that sexism described above. Trans women do too. But the reason why trans women face more violent crimes is directly related to what I wrote above. What is feminine and womanly/girly is considered inferior. Transphobes, especially the sexist ones are more hostile to trans women cause they "betrayed" maleness and are feminine so they are inferior. "How dare they want to be women?" the transmisogynyst thinks. They want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity. Here is the answer to "Why do trans women tend to face more violent crimes/more violent discrimination?"
Obviously the thread focuses on trans men and feminism. I just wanted to add that notion of transmisogyny because people said trans women face more hatred. It's true. They're also more visible and also badly represented in the media. I attempted to explain why they have it worse, generally (but all trans people have it bad. Really bad).
T.K.G.W. I see what you mean but what you described fits what I said about benevolent sexism. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this perspective. Just my opinion here and the opinion of many other feminists (at least 3rd wave). It's really not a privilege to be treated like an inferior being to be protected like they can't take care of themselves. It's belittling and being treated like a child.
"Women and children first" when some tragedy happens and people need to be rescued. I always hear it. I always ask "why women first? I understand children, so it should be all children first and then men and women together after all the children are saved". Equality also means being treated like an independent human being who can take care of her/himself.
What you described about privilege of not being beaten up is tricky. It's a double-edged sword. It might feel like a privilege but in the end, it's not (see the benevolent sexism above). And unfortunately, female bodied individuals face threats and fear of rape, and that's really not a privilege. Like "corrective rape" in South Africa. I am not saying trans women don't face this too, just saying it's more likely to happen to female bodied individuals since they are seen as women by most people.
@ Peep
Same here. I am white, young and westerner (not sure about middle class, maybe I'm lower than that). Seriously, no one would go through the pain of discrimination and finding supportive people and transition and surgeries and all of that, just to gain male privilege. No one. Those TERFs or radfems are really really transphobic. They have zero understanding. Trans identities are real. Those transphobes are full of bs though. If their messed up, twisted and delusional theory was true, then there would be no trans women (who would lose male privilege?). They abuse the concept of male privilege a little bit too much and use it against tra s men. Whoever thinks we go through therapy, hormones, surgeries, misgendering, anxiety, depression and all just to get some privilege is delusional. They don't understand we have this identity and that it's not a choice, and they don't know anything about transgender people. Then they say trans women are just men who want to creep on women or invade their spaces to control them. Sometimes I think stuff like this borders on mental illness. Seriously. Not only are they evil and hate us, they also come up with absurd theories like that and have zero knowledge about what being trans really means.
Quote from: jossam on May 04, 2016, 03:32:00 PM
The way I (and other feminists) interpret it is that whatever is feminine is seen as negative in our (western) society. It's seen as weak, shallow and even disgusting. And it's difficult to get rid of years of brainwashing telling us that being feminine is disgusting and that men and women are not equal (no equal rights). Patriarchy and its beliefs are so deep rooted in our minds that many people act sexist without even realizing it or they might even think they are being nice. This "nice sexism" is a particularly subtle form of sexism and it's called benevolent sexism. Example: "ladies first". It's particularly hard to unmask because it is very subtle and it is considered chivalry. It assumes every woman is a delicate little flower that we all need to put on a pedestal. People might think it means considering women superior since they are told "ladies first" and other chivalrous things. Surprise! It's nothing positive.
Maybe it was nice and had a specific function in the Middle Ages where knights wanted to find their ladies and it was their way to flirt and get her to fall in love. It is a Middle Ages thing. It's gone.
No need to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. We should open/hold doors open for everyone, regardless of gender. We should be nice to everyone and we should help anyone who could use some help. We should only get up and give our seats to old people, pregnant people and people with disabilities, but not to healthy young women just because they are women because they don't faint or die if they don't find a seat on a bus, do they? The assumption that women or more generally female bodied individuals are all delicate and whiny and weak is an incredibly sexist notion.
Obviously, a trans man who is considered a woman by others especially pre transition can experience all that sexism described above. Trans women do too. But the reason why trans women face more violent crimes is directly related to what I wrote above. What is feminine and womanly/girly is considered inferior. Transphobes, especially the sexist ones are more hostile to trans women cause they "betrayed" maleness and are feminine so they are inferior. "How dare they want to be women?" the transmisogynyst thinks. They want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity. Here is the answer to "Why do trans women tend to face more violent crimes/more violent discrimination?"
Obviously the thread focuses on trans men and feminism. I just wanted to add that notion of transmisogyny because people said trans women face more hatred. It's true. They're also more visible and also badly represented in the media. I attempted to explain why they have it worse, generally (but all trans people have it bad. Really bad).
T.K.G.W. I see what you mean but what you described fits what I said about benevolent sexism. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this perspective. Just my opinion here and the opinion of many other feminists (at least 3rd wave). It's really not a privilege to be treated like an inferior being to be protected like they can't take care of themselves. It's belittling and being treated like a child.
"Women and children first" when some tragedy happens and people need to be rescued. I always hear it. I always ask "why women first? I understand children, so it should be all children first and then men and women together after all the children are saved". Equality also means being treated like an independent human being who can take care of her/himself.
What you described about privilege of not being beaten up is tricky. It's a double-edged sword. It might feel like a privilege but in the end, it's not (see the benevolent sexism above). And unfortunately, female bodied individuals face threats and fear of rape, and that's really not a privilege. Like "corrective rape" in South Africa. I am not saying trans women don't face this too, just saying it's more likely to happen to female bodied individuals since they are seen as women by most people.
@ Peep
Same here. I am white, young and westerner (not sure about middle class, maybe I'm lower than that). Seriously, no one would go through the pain of discrimination and finding supportive people and transition and surgeries and all of that, just to gain male privilege. No one. Those TERFs or radfems are really really transphobic. They have zero understanding. Trans identities are real. Those transphobes are full of bs though. If their messed up, twisted and delusional theory was true, then there would be no trans women (who would lose male privilege?). They abuse the concept of male privilege a little bit too much and use it against tra s men. Whoever thinks we go through therapy, hormones, surgeries, misgendering, anxiety, depression and all just to get some privilege is delusional. They don't understand we have this identity and that it's not a choice, and they don't know anything about transgender people. Then they say trans women are just men who want to creep on women or invade their spaces to control them. Sometimes I think stuff like this borders on mental illness. Seriously. Not only are they evil and hate us, they also come up with absurd theories like that and have zero knowledge about what being trans really means.
I agree with every word of this.
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I hadn't seen this thread, but I made a video about this same thing last week:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRCqSMaxq2c
QuoteThey want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity.
I don't know what a transphobe is thinking in their head. But I could just as easily wonder that it's not women they hate, but men deviating from the prescribed behavior. If they really hated women, if this really was a super-misogynist society, then being a misogynist would be expected and celebrated. That's not what I see out there, since "misogynist" is clearly an insult these days. Being accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever. Being a wife-beater is not applauded but considered disgusting behavior where I live. I mean if society was truly an abjectly woman-hating society, we wouldn't have women in government ever because they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't be allowing women into the armed forces like they are beginning to now. They wouldn't be trying to help women get careers in STEM or allowing them into universities. They just wouldn't tolerate women doing so many things they are allowed and actually encouraged to do, in lots of countries now. If they hated femininity, why would they punish the man but continue to allow the woman to express it? Why wouldn't they demand women act and dress more like men?
So I think the idea they just hate femininity by default is a stretch. Men not wanting to act like women, or other men not approving of men acting like women doesn't automatically mean they just hate women. Does women not wanting to act like men mean they hate men?
What they don't like is the crossing or blurring of the 'line' between.
QuoteIf they really hated women, if this really was a super-misogynist society, then being a misogynist would be expected and celebrated.
We're not Iran or Saudi Arabia, of course. I wasn't exaggerating like that. But we still have issues with women. Some people do celebrate misogyny, like telling and laughing at rape jokes, like saying rape victims were looking for it or not believing them, etc.
QuoteBeing accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever.
Never as bad as a woman getting raped and getting PTSD, depression and other pretty bad stuff. Do you ever think about their lives that get ruined? Sure, false accusations happen, but it's more likely that a woman is not believed or taken seriously by society when she reports rape (especially if it's her husband or if she's a sex worker or if she wears revealing clothes), or blamed for a rape. It happens more than falsely accusing a man of raping someone. I'm aware of mean, maybe even psychopathic women doing that kind of stuff, but it's not a huge problem and usually, the "this man's reputation got ruined" argument is used by groups like MRA.
QuoteI mean if society was truly an abjectly woman-hating society, we wouldn't have women in government ever because they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't be allowing women into the armed forces like they are beginning to now. They wouldn't be trying to help women get careers in STEM or allowing them into universities. They just wouldn't tolerate women doing so many things they are allowed and actually encouraged to do, in lots of countries now.
That's extreme. I wasn't talking about extreme cases. I'm not aware of women being helped get STEM careers, they have to earn them just like everybody else. Also, remember these things happened because of feminism pushing for rights. We weren't always like that, our society has evolved a lot since the ancient times. I'm sure you know how women couldn't vote, and in my country they were allowed to vote after WW2. So we evolved, but some bad habits are hard to defeat. But you can't really scream "full equality exists" when for example 70 women vs 300 men are in a parliament, or when people say Hillary Clinton can't be president cause women can't be good leaders, or when a woman gets paid less for the same job a man does. I'm not saying we're so backward like the catastrophic examples you mentioned (but we were like that up until not so long ago). I'm just saying sexism is still very real even in western socities, although it's not as bad as other societies, obviously! But while our laws made men and women equal, they aren't always applied. And I wasn't even talking about laws, I was talking about general social attitudes, like sexually harassing women, catcalling, treating them like sex objects, acting like they owe men sex and acting like women exist to pleasure men (all the nakedness, not to mention derogatory porn), and all the sexist slurs that people use all the time. It's a cultural thing, and it's not going away. I WAS LIKE THAT. I WAS THAT KIND OF GUY. So I know
exactly how sexist men think and act. I wasn't consciously doing it though, I just live in a pretty sexist area, and add this to my poor social skills and you get a pretty shady guy. Now I learned what respect for women is and I stand up for their rights - not just legal, but cultural and social too, so I'm not an ass anymore.
OP - there are groups of feminists like TERFs and many radfems that don't really like us trans guys. One of the things I'd like to hear when talking about trans men and feminism is that those groups are only groups of transphobes and they're also just like any other hate group (because they promote hatred, not equality), and should have no place in feminism now. And then well, me and other people addressed other issues so I already wrote about certain topics in other posts.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on May 04, 2016, 02:29:10 PM
Yeah, that is belittling women to call them confused little girls. On the other hand though, transwomen who transition are more likely to get physically attacked and not just called silly and confused because they were once seen as men.
They both suck, but I know I'd prefer to be called confused than attacked or shot. As a biologically-born female I have the privilege of people not wanting to kill or harm me anywhere near as much just because they think I'm a woman.
Wait, but if femmephobia doesn't exist, and people don't hate femininity, why is there a disproportionate amount of violence towards trans women as opposed to trans men? If it was only 'blurring' that was feared and hated, surely it would be equal?
People get more hostile when it's amab people having female roles and being feminine (effeminate gay men get more hate than masculine gay men) because they "gave up their masculinity" and emnraced femininity which is inferior according to them.
Quote from: jossam on May 04, 2016, 09:58:49 PM
"Being accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever."
Never as bad as a woman getting raped and getting PTSD, depression and other pretty bad stuff. Do you ever think about their lives that get ruined? Sure, false accusations happen, but it's more likely that a woman is not believed or taken seriously by society when she reports rape (especially if it's her husband or if she's a sex worker or if she wears revealing clothes), or blamed for a rape. It happens more than falsely accusing a man of raping someone. I'm aware of mean, maybe even psychopathic women doing that kind of stuff, but it's not a huge problem and usually, the "this man's reputation got ruined" argument is used by groups like MRA.
To me a life ruined is a life ruined. I heard of a man who was almost beaten to death when he was falsely accused of rape, sounds like a problem to me. Plus rape isn't a women's only issue, anyone can get raped, many people don't think men can be raped (because they are men, and of course men always want sex and they just didn't know they wanted it *sarcasm) and men being raped it is often a joke used in western media. Trans/intersex people are often blamed for there rape (not for how they are dressed) but solely because were trans/intersex.
Just because you care about women's right doesn't mean you can't care about men's, trans's or intersex's rights. we are all people on this earth a deserve to feel safe and loved.
Quote from: Peep on May 05, 2016, 07:39:48 AM
Wait, but if femmephobia doesn't exist, and people don't hate femininity, why is there a disproportionate amount of violence towards trans women as opposed to trans men? If it was only 'blurring' that was feared and hated, surely it would be equal?
I didn't say femmephobia doesn't exist or that some people don't hate femininity. I said that transphobes probably didn't automatically hate women as the reason they don't like trans people, or the reason they don't like to see what they think is a man dressing/acting/speaking like a woman.
And to answer this, because those people are not acknowledging transwomen as
women. Same reason the bathroom bills expect them to use
male toilets and risk violence in there. They see transwomen as men trying to be women; if they did see transwomen as the same as cis women I doubt there would be a larger amount of violence toward them. And by the same token they see transmen as women and not 'real' men.
All the brooahaha lately about the bathroom issue shows quite transparently that many people pushing for it see transwomen merely as men trying to invade a 'female space'.Because they are still seen as male by such people, disproportionate violence toward them is seen because typically violence toward men is more socially acceptable. Trans men sometimes have this happen to them, but less often; in the case of some "corrective rape" is used as a punishment (Brandon Teena for example) strongly suggesting those attackers saw him as a woman, not a man. They also killed him, I know; but the numbers/risk for being violently attacked and/or killed for being FTM are significantly lower than that for MTF.
In short, transwomen are not attacked because they are seen as women and because people hate femininity. It's because society at large does not yet see them as women, and because men typically suffer greater levels of violence in society that is considered acceptable for them. They're attacked because people tend to see them as men, not women, doing something they deem inappropriate for men to do. And because people see men as a threat, and not women as a threat. And because people care less when men suffer violence than when women do.
QuoteJust because you care about women's right doesn't mean you can't care about men's, trans's or intersex's rights. we are all people on this earth a deserve to feel safe and loved.
Word.
I care about everyone's rights. I just don't see the need to "defend men's rights" (specifically men's rights, I mean) since it's not men who weren't allowed to study, work, vote, be in politics, be leaders. It's not men who are seen as pieces of meat and sex objects and objects of catcalling and street harassment and who get paid less and who are told they are inferior. Guys, let's be honest here for one second. Acknowledging that sexism and misogyny exist DOES NOT mean we go against our own gender (male). Not at all. We can all be better men and be nice to women.
I agree that those people see trans women as men trying to invade female space and this is why they get attacked more. So yeah, this is pure transphobia. But it's also true that IN GENERAL people do have femmephobia and sexism. Terms like "acting like a pussy", "pussified" said to men are highly humiliating to those men because they're seen as weak and this kills their masculinity and it makes them feel like they are being invalidated (it happened to me once cause apparently I wasn't acting macho enough for those people) and humiliating to women too cause it implies all women fear their own shadows and that they're all little fragile beings.
I know rape is everyone's issue, but the numbers are disproportionate. Men get raped too, of course. And women rape too. I don't deny it. But no one can deny MOST victims of rape and sexual violence in general are women and girls.
Too bad society does not encourage men to report rapes and domestic abuse. But that's because of the stupid gender roles and the notion that men can't be victims and that women can't be threats because they're all delicate flowers. Well. The type of feminism I believe in promotes equal rights and equal duties.
In a nutshell....sexism hurts everyone. Every gender. Yes it hurts us guys too, cause they want us to be a certain way and if we fail to be that way then we are labeled as weak and "pussies". And this is why everyone needs feminism. Not misandry, not the misandry of radfems, but honest, egalitarian feminism. It includes saying women can be dangerous too and that men can be victims of women too (especially of emotional abuse like I was).
At a feminist conference where they also talk about trans people I would like to hear someone say tht trans men do not belong in women only spaces as we are not women. And they should NEVER be in any lesbian group, again, because we are not women. Being ibcluded in a women only space or lesbian space would be extremely insulting to me.
But those women only spaces should include trans women because they are women.
So unless it's some specific health situation like going to a gyn (if we still have certain organs) we should never be in "women only spaces". This means all those social events for women only or whatever is restricted and allows women only. Include trans women, not trans men. Seriously. This trans men inclusion in women only spaces is insulting to us and transphobic.
Quote from: jossam on May 07, 2016, 07:54:56 PM
I know rape is everyone's issue, but the numbers are disproportionate. Men get raped too, of course. And women rape too. I don't deny it. But no one can deny MOST victims of rape and sexual violence in general are women and girls.
Too bad society does not encourage men to report rapes and domestic abuse. But that's because of the stupid gender roles and the notion that men can't be victims and that women can't be threats because they're all delicate flowers. Well. The type of feminism I believe in promotes equal rights and equal duties.
This - and i think it's wrong that male rape victims are almost always mentioned only as a counter to women's rights. i'd like to see more people talking about this issue on its own, not in a 'men get raped
too' sense. It shouldn't be a case of looking at a culture that hides and denies male rape, and one that excuses female rape, as a question of which is worse, but as two different (but connected) problematic cultures that can be addressed without sidelining one or the other
As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the
only safe space that women are allowed to have? Whenever anyone talks about female safe spaces elsewhere, it's always 'not all men' and 'reverse sexism'. No one supporting those laws is interested in women having safe spaces; they're interested in using the 'threat' of trans women as a trojan horse to discriminate against all LGBTQIA people.
Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
i think it's wrong that male rape victims are almost always mentioned only as a counter to women's rights.
I don't think disusing male victims of rape can be used to invalidates female victims. Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever. Some people are happy to ignore non-female victims and when I hear "but its worse for women" or "your counter to women's rights" it shows me people don't care about the entire issue. If feminism is truly about gender equality
(and it should be) you should talk about all genders.
Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
I'd like to see more people talking about this issue on its own, not in a 'men get raped too' sense. It shouldn't be a case of looking at a culture that hides and denies male rape, and one that excuses female rape, as a question of which is worse
You don't need to categories rape by gender to talk about it. rape is rape, it is the same issue but different people. if I hear people ignoring non-female victims I'll bring it up. Also your forgetting trans (non-gender and bi-gender people) and intersex people that identify as intersex, they need discussed too.
Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the only safe space that women are allowed to have?
I have never considered bathroom a "safe place." I consider it a place to use the bathroom, wash my hands and check my makeup/hair. Nor have I ever considered bathroom a single gender place, I see children and disabled/elderly people with caregivers in opposite gender bathroom or people that make a mistake and walk into the wrong room all the time.
I'm not looking to change the way that I purse equality and you probably are not either, I guess we will have to agree to disagree and try not to start a war here.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 08, 2016, 02:24:55 PM
I don't think disusing male victims of rape can be used to invalidates female victims. Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever. Some people are happy to ignore non-female victims and when I hear "but its worse for women" or "your counter to women's rights" it shows me people don't care about the entire issue. If feminism is truly about gender equality (and it should be) you should talk about all genders.
You don't need to categories rape by gender to talk about it. rape is rape, it is the same issue but different people. if I hear people ignoring non-female victims I'll bring it up. Also your forgetting trans (non-gender and bi-gender people) and intersex people that identify as intersex, they need discussed too.
I'm not looking to change the way that I purse equality and you probably are not either, I guess we will have to agree to disagree and try not to start a war here.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would think rape is okay because anyone can get raped. :/
I'm not talking about what
should be, I'm talking about attitudes that i have observed that
shouldn't exist. I've rarely seen the statement 'men get raped', it's almost always, 'men get raped too'. Discussing male victims of rape
shouldn't be used to invalidate female victims, but it often
is particularly online - 'Women get raped' 'Men get raped too, so let's stop talking about it' is the attitude. It's different from just wanting to continue the conversation while including non-female victims. I don't support this attitude, but it does exist.
As for categorising by gender, I mean that cultural attitudes towards rape of feminine and masculine people are different, and so to tackle these problematic attitudes, they do need to be seen as different. For example, the different reasons why a cis man might not report being raped (e.g. toxic masculinity and fear of being seen as weak/ the fact that people don't believe that men CAN be raped) vs reasons why a cis woman wouldn't (e.g. victim blaming/ 'spoiled goods' attitude). Similarly rape in a trans or intersex context is often different. Talking about rape as a blanket issue is not detailed enough, rape culture won't be tackled by simplifying the issues in order to have a gender neutral discourse.
And yeah i generalised to binary people, my bad.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 08, 2016, 02:24:55 PM
Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever
Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 03:05:34 PM
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would think rape is okay because anyone can get raped. :/
Sorry poorly worded sentence, what I meant by "You" was "people that bring up male victims of rape" not, "you" as in you yourself. silly English language. I don't think any healthy minded person thinks rape is a OK thing to do.
" unless a person that brings up the topic of male victims of rape says that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, then I don't believe bringing up male victims of rape invalidated female victims"
This is what I ment.
Feminism focuses on women. Sure it promotes equality but it focuses on women, or sometimes it could be expanded to afab people of any gender (if we talk about bodies only).
However, feminist theories do help men too. No more discrimination against effeminate guys, no more discrimination against men who don't fit the stereotypical gender roles.
But feminism is not about men, so when men say "it happens to men too" or "what about the men?" it can be seen as hostile, as a way to invade a place that focuses on women's specific issues and rights.
Otherwise it wouldn't be called feminism.
Yes men do get raped too but the reasons why it happens are usually different from when the same thing happens to a woman or afab trans person who is seen by others as a woman.
Rape culture is about using the female body as an object, it's about seeing it as an object of pleasure that can be violated any time and according to them it is ok to do it, or they even joke about it, or threaten someone, or they even justify rape. It's a power thing that stems from that one big source: sexism.
And mind you, sexism can affect trans men too especially the ones pre everything who are not out to everyone. If we are seen as women by people (either because they don't know about our actual gender or because they know it but don't accept it)
we can face sexism too (in addition to transphobia).
So feminism can help trans men too. But it can help cis men too (the ones who are not oppressive and sexist).
And feminism should fight more for trans women's rights and inclusion in women only spaces. Trans women belong to those spaces (unlike trans men).
Quote from: jossam on May 09, 2016, 08:08:33 AM
Feminism focuses on women.
I'm a liberal feminist (and I and many others) believe that feminism is about the rights of all genders not just women. To me even if you solve one issue temporally it means nothing if you don't solve the whole issue because the issue will return.
the problem is that feminism is a very loosely defined, and there is many sub-groups that disagree on the definition of feminism, issues and how equality should be achieved. gender feminist, radical feminist, liberal feminist, economic feminist etc. often don't get along with eachother. I have seen and unfortunately gotten involved in in-fighting before.
I got into argument with a gender feminist they said that the "only way to achieve equality was to abolish the concept of sex and gender and that trans people were the enemy of equality" Don't know what their goal was in going up to a trans person and saying they were preventing equality was but it ended in a argument
Got in another argument with a economic feminist told me homemakers and stay at home parents were "kitchen slaves." As a person from a line of furiously proud homemakers/stay at home parents and as a Home Economics Education student and aspiring stay at home parent I did take kindly to the statement.
unfortunately this happen in every civil rights group, and probably will happen as long as there are civil rights groups. I try to except the difference in points of view but passion can run very close to the surface.
That's what I meant, equal rights for every gender except I personally focus on women cause after all that's the core of feminism and how it started.
But woah, abolishing the concept of gender and sex? That sounds ridiculous. Sex and gender identity are facts that can't be abolished. They are not concepts. Gender roles can be abolished though because those are social. No more "women in the kitchen and men working" bs. Why not let couples decide? My dad stays in the kitchen a lot. Ironic, since he can be pretty sexist sometimes but at least he doesn't care about gender roles and gladly cooks all day. Or both can go to work. I talked about hetero couples here, obviously.
But tell me how we can abolish sex ??? I think gender identity is part of sex too and trans people have one sex (or no sex, or something in between) in the brain and the other in the body lol so we might want to readjust our bodies . So gender identity is like the "sex of the brain" (or lack thereof). And we can't really abolish biological facts.
However, we can stop assigning sex to babies by looking at their genitalia, or at least, doctors should be like "ok the baby has female genitalia but we all know there is a tiny possibility that the baby will be trans". Because when a baby is born with certain genitalia everyone automatically assumes its identity will match the genitalia. "It's a girl!" usually does not mean the baby has female genitalia, they also mean it's a girl and will be a woman in the sense of gender identity, so parents already assume things about the future life of their child. They will go buy pink stuff, toys for girls and will talk about boyfriends.
Society should acknowledge sex is not given by genitalia only. Or chromosomes only. There is the brain and the influences hormones had on the brain when the baby was in the womb, and that's far more important than pieces of meat between our legs.
Everything comes from the brain. Chromosomes = genitalia, but pre-natal sexual hormones = sex of the brain. Society focuses on what's easier to see (genitalia) and that's how they assign sex/gender. And this should be stopped because we trans people know how false this is.
But I assume that's not the logic that feminist used because she said we are the enemies ??? Well she is just a transphobe and hides behind distorted ideologies.
It's cis heteronormativity, folks. THAT's the enemy of LGBT people. If we trans people could come out easily and receive easy medical treatment and not be discriminated against by society, we'd be happier and we'd have no enemies. But right now, our biggest enemy is cisnormativity, not sex.
And I see many trans inclusive feminists attacking cisnormativity. And I am one of those.
Quote from: jossam on May 09, 2016, 09:04:13 AM
But tell me how we can abolish sex ???
Idk, I said disagree with people that believe these things, I don't believe it myself. The concept that getting rid of sex/gender will solve gender equality is silly to me and invalidates how people identify themselves which is counter productive.
Quote from: jossam on May 09, 2016, 09:04:13 AM
No more "women in the kitchen and men working" bs.
That what I'm saying, as well as no more "people can't be homemaker if they want to". If a person wants to work out side the home that's there choice, just as much as choosing to work in the home. I will never understand why people look down on homemakers/stay at home parents is its noble and important career choice that should be respected, just like any other career.
Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the only safe space that women are allowed to have? Whenever anyone talks about female safe spaces elsewhere, it's always 'not all men' and 'reverse sexism'. No one supporting those laws is interested in women having safe spaces; they're interested in using the 'threat' of trans women as a trojan horse to discriminate against all LGBTQIA people.
No.
In fact I notice that there are women's only spaces and women's only groups all over the place but very, very few if any spaces of equivalence for men. Examples just from my own country and local area, I live right next door to a building labelled "Women's Institute", which is a meeting place for women of all age groups where they do various activities like craft fairs in a female-run environment - there is no "Men's institute" here. There is a women's only section in a local gym - there is no "men's only" section of that gym where women are specifically not allowed to go, unlike for women. There is a section of time allotted to women only at the local swimming pool as well - no such equivalent for men in that pool. There is a women's shelter and refuge trust for (female) victims of abuse or needing a temporary shelter or to go with their kids to escape a violent spouse, no such thing here specifically for men suffering the exact same circumstances (in fact the grand total of 1 organization in the UK dedicated to helping battered men has recently been shut down). These are all "safe spaces" where women are specifically encouraged to run it themselves, or the only allowed gender in that space. I see no "men's only" spaces if they wanted a space to be among men and not women as well. A quick Google of my country reveals women only running clubs, female-focused watersports clubs, women's only bike riding groups, and I could go on and on with examples, but no "men's" or "men's only versions" of the same thing advertising a specifically male space.
There are LOTS of women-only spaces out there. Either for reasons of "safety", or reasons of women still just preferring to do things surrounded by women and not men.
Yes I think some of these bathroom bill pushers are using transwomen to marginalize trans people and keep them from being able to present freely in public. But more than a few of them have voiced concern that their wives/daughters/mothers "safe space" of the female bathroom is being invaded. So I do think they value women's 'safe spaces', even if they are not women themselves. The "protection of women" in their bathrooms is about half the argument from what I see. The rest is the dismissal of transwomen as true women.
I'm not saying that there
are no women's only spaces, I'm saying that when these spaces exist they're always questioned exactly the way you just did - why don't men have it too. That's why it says ALLOWED to have in my post, not HAVE. Whereas when it comes to bathrooms, the focus is on the comfort of the women using them. I haven't seen any bathroom myth panic about trans men in the mens' room - I may be not reading widely enough, but it seems like the casual majority is about protecting women.
Usually when a woman says she doesn't feel safe in society, there's a chunk of #notallmen comments that will question the need, and be offended that anyone might think they'd ever harass anyone. And then the bathroom myth comes up, and all these men are saying that they'd randomly harass women if they were allowed to?
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on May 09, 2016, 12:13:54 PM
There is a women's shelter and refuge trust for (female) victims of abuse or needing a temporary shelter or to go with their kids to escape a violent spouse, no such thing here specifically for men suffering the exact same circumstances (in fact the grand total of 1 organization in the UK dedicated to helping battered men has recently been shut down).
I agree completely with this and this is a huge problem. I wish more people questioned this than questioned less vital things like 'why do women get a history month'
Quote from: Peep on April 21, 2016, 05:06:11 PM
Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women, particularly in feminist and lesbian spaces. You could talk about how despite being men, trans men are often included in lesbian spaces, where trans women aren't.
I feel that the presence of trans women in the media isn't always positive - that the reason that there's more trans feminine people on tv is that society is more interested in what amab people do - which is lowkey misgendering and liked to femmephobia and toxic masculinity. Some people respond more to afab people being 'strong' or 'not like other girls' but for amab people to be feminine is seen as more negative, trans or cis.
It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.
You could also talk about how some trans men internalize misogyny to the extent that they don't believe that feminism is necessary at all.
Also I feel that while I have the experience of being perceived as female, I haven't experienced being female, because I'm not. For example, I don't want my chest, or to see it or to have anyone see it, so I don't know what it's like to want to go topless as a female and be unable to, or to be punished for trying to breast feed in public, etc. However I do know about how badly bras are designed and how women's clothes rarely have pockets, what it's like to feel under threat from the male gaze, etc.
Could you invite a trans woman to join your talk? You could compare the experience of gaining versus loosing male privilege. I don't know if i would do a talk/attend a specifically feminist event unless it was intended to be mixed gender wise (ie trans men weren't the only men there) and unless i could be sure it wasn't an unintentional misgendering, and unless i knew there'd be trans women there too.
Sorry this is vague - this is another reason why I wouldn't want to be the one to try talk about it! I hope i gave you some ideas though
"Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women" Wow, YES. That's the perfect way to put that. Also think about the types of representation in the media trans women are afforded. It's almost always that they're either the subject of a joke, or of violence. I also think, if you choose to do this talk, to do it with a trans woman is a great idea.
I have never been a feminist radical or otherwise. Partly because my outlook is why in the world would you let me in as someone who has more in common with the typical cowboy/redneck guy then I do women, and the fact they don't want trans women there, but want people like me.
For me I have wondered if there are more trans men deaths that are either labeled ''men'' or butch lesbian for those who don't pass. I wonder if Brandon Teena story only came out because he is on record saying he was trans, but that is just me.
For me when I came out I wanted all that is with came being male, the good and the bad. Because to me it is where I belong when it comes to roles in the world. I don't want the door opened for me, or my chair pulled out, or all those female things. I don't want the its night and you might not be safe.
There are pros to being either gender, but for me it wasn't about gaining anything, it was about the shoe finally fitting right per say.
I disagree mainly on the trans men don't get as much volience because how many times in liberal Minnesota I have had a straight man insist he could fix me, make me like guys, and make me like being a girl. It might because these are teenage boys, but I doubt it.
On the subject of domestic volience shelters for men I wish there would be more of a effort on that front. The problem is people still hold onto the idea a woman can't hurt a man.
No idea if anyone has mentioned this or not, but the vast majority of serious trans men I know are anti-feminists. Not saying they all are, but all of the ones I know are. Most of us just don't consider it relative anymore. Just a heads up, don't want anyone getting hurt.
Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces. I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist. I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men. Why can't we judge people by who they are as individual human beings and use THAT to decide if we want to spend time with them instead of using their gender as a way to judge them before we even know them as people? Yes, gender is an important trait, but I don't use it to decide whether or not I want to spend time with people. Nor have I ever felt unsafe around men even when I was very effeminate. Why? Because I was a very dominate person who was more than willing to knee men in the junk if they did something like catcall me, so guys generally didn't mess with me. All of these arguments are deep and interesting, but I really think we should all start to focus on people as individual human beings rather than pointing out that they are "men" and "women" and going from there. I have men and women as friends, and I chose NONE of those friends based on their gender. Many do not fit specific gender stereotypes. I actually consider our tendency to want to sequester men and women in different spaces to be a form of sexism. Let's all just be people together. And yes, I realize saying this on the Internet will likely get me ripped apart and accused of misogyny. But I just don't like encouraging people to choose their friends based on gender or judge people in general based on their gender. How about we hold out for a couple of hours and judge them on who they are as people?
^ I would prefer this, but probably only because of my particular outlook. I treat all people as the same, I think because I lack the wiring to see myself as "like everybody else" or falling into one of their particular gender camps 100%, but I do know that people tend to see themselves as different by gender. Very different. I mean otherwise we wouldn't use pronouns or get upset if someone used the wrong ones, and we'd only refer to our genders on a doctor's record because that's all it would ever be needed for. We wouldn't even need words like "men" and "women" for everyday use.
But people out there seem to feel more comfortable with the divide and belonging on one particular side of it. It also just seems like a common instinct out there that women need women only spaces because without them they will be "exposed" to men, potential perverts, or something like that. It's not beyond the imagination to have mixed spaces even in intimate settings - I know onsen in Japan have mixed bathing where people are naked and they just don't get worked up about the fact men and women are naked together in a hot spring. It's probably just the trappings of our current culture and levels of restraint. Maybe one day we'll get over it.
Quote from: FtMitch on May 20, 2016, 11:21:26 AM
Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces. I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist. I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men. Why can't we judge people by who they are as individual human beings and use THAT to decide if we want to spend time with them instead of using their gender as a way to judge them before we even know them as people? Yes, gender is an important trait, but I don't use it to decide whether or not I want to spend time with people. Nor have I ever felt unsafe around men even when I was very effeminate. Why? Because I was a very dominate person who was more than willing to knee men in the junk if they did something like catcall me, so guys generally didn't mess with me. All of these arguments are deep and interesting, but I really think we should all start to focus on people as individual human beings rather than pointing out that they are "men" and "women" and going from there. I have men and women as friends, and I chose NONE of those friends based on their gender. Many do not fit specific gender stereotypes. I actually consider our tendency to want to sequester men and women in different spaces to be a form of sexism. Let's all just be people together. And yes, I realize saying this on the Internet will likely get me ripped apart and accused of misogyny. But I just don't like encouraging people to choose their friends based on gender or judge people in general based on their gender. How about we hold out for a couple of hours and judge them on who they are as people?
I agree with every word of this.
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Quote from: Peep on May 10, 2016, 08:01:29 AM
Usually when a woman says she doesn't feel safe in society, there's a chunk of #notallmen comments that will question the need, and be offended that anyone might think they'd ever harass anyone. And then the bathroom myth comes up, and all these men are saying that they'd randomly harass women if they were allowed to?
Boom, drop the mic. Excellent point.
There are men's spaces. The most important is in the courtroom, where men get off for crimes like rape more often than not. All of these "protective" women's spaces are tacit acknowledgements that society refuses to prosecute crimes like groping (sexual assault--see the women's car on the subway), public lewdness (see sex segregated locker rooms), and disturbing the peace (why can't a women's group admit men and operate under Robert's Rules of Order?). Boys will be boys. The ultimate expression of male power in society.
C'mon, guys, lets cut the bull->-bleeped-<-. We should know better than anyone how men and women are treated differently in all spheres of life. And that certain carveouts for the subordinate group do not make them paradoxically the dominant group. Victorian women had far fewer rights than women in Western societies today yet Victorian women could often get off for murder in a way today's women murderers can't. That does not mean Victorian women were more privileged than women today. They tended to get off (with a good lawyer) for sex related crimes where the jury felt that the defendant had no choice but to resort to murder because she had no other social or legal option. You know that woman who killed all those babies? They did her for that.
Quote from: FtMitch on May 20, 2016, 11:21:26 AM
Honestly, I get sick of people whining so much about gender spaces. I much prefer coed everything and have never understood why people want women only spaces to exist. I am a hardcore feminist, and I never wanted to spend time ONLY with women or ONLY with men.
I think it's important to try to understand people on their own terms. As a gender variant person who was told from a very young age that I wasn't allowed to be (over and over and over), I became obsessed with androgyny and mixed gender spaces. Anything to evade the "girly girl" label. And remember, our FTM experience, and our desire for mixed spaces is not every FTM experience. I see many FTMs online who are obsessed with men's only spaces such as fraternities and clubs. I personally find overly male or overly female groups to be lame, but that's just me.
As for the gym, as I've come to understand the role gender dysphoria has played in my relationship towards the gym, I'm willing to be more forgiving of women who feel out of place in a mixed (read: male-dominated) gym. The old school gym culture was not set up for what most women are seeking out of a gym, if not somewhat hostile. There are more modern mixed gyms today that keep everybody happy, but you can still find bro gyms everywhere and that's what places like Curves are responding to. (Btw, I've heard Curves is a terrible organization and they suck, but that's neither here nor there.)
I know it's easy to project ourselves on everyone else but that's our problem, isn't it? We're not like everybody else. We've got to accept that cis women don't see things or feel things like we do.