I am meeting more and more transfolks that id this way. Some full time, some socially fluid, some nonsocially transitioned.
But all are trans, all are transitioing or transitioned. Some low dose, some high.
I help a young person that ids as nonbinary. She is full time, is saving for her op, is she on the phone. Fully girl and very pretty, but she does not reject her male instincts. She is so far to the femsle it throws me.
Its self perception isnt it? Recognizing..for some not all..that its not a total gender change, that we are somehow different from women. Some, not all. Some of us girls are women to the core. I am not invalidating that.
Do you live like this? Or in some variation of being fully transsexual, yet with a twist?
Something to think about.
Satin Joy
I consider myself a hybrid.
I'll do you one better, I've stolen Shantels' description: Exotic hybrid. :)
I consider myself masculine of centre and I'd like top surgery and possibly hormones... but I also don't negate the effects of my lifetime being seen as some sort of female. I think that if I had transitioned as a child or teen then I might have been able to be a binary trans guy... but I didn't know it was an option.
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I am living as a full-time post-op transwoman. My internal gender is something few people know.
I consider myself third sex. As much for social reasons as anything else (socialization, transitioning at middle age).
One of my best friends is non binary trans and genderqueer, and they've identified that way for a long time. Just started HRT (low dose) and doing very well on it. I noticed a big difference after one week, kind of striking. (A lot of nervous tics had just stopped.)
Third sex makes sense to me too.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 23, 2016, 05:18:16 PM
I'll do you one better, I've stolen Shantels' description: Exotic hybrid. :)
My self esteem will be showing when I say genetic throwback. Just about every other aspect of my life it's obvious I lost the gene-pool lottery
I think you won it honey...
I am not 100% on how I want to describe/identify my gender but it does shift around the andro end of masculine fairly deeply into feminine. I feel more comfortable attempting to present as female most of the time but I know a lot of the time I don't quite pull it off very well. I almost definitely want ffs, pretty unsure about bottom surgery. Thank god I can't drive, I'll end up spending the same as a new car... actually a driver's license might come in handy...
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Personally I think in many cases non-binary is probably an example of the kind of overthinking and over self-definition that we are all prone to do when we have done something so radical as to transition and have surgery. I think of myself as "ME" pure and simple. Am I masculine or feminine? Well thats something for others to decide because I cant really see myself through their eyes. Have I now got female shaped bits? Yes. Did I at birth? No! Did I want to be female? yes! Does anyone ever question that I am? No. I think thats generally far enough when it comes to self definition.
I am told that I am quite middle of the road territory in my personality so that had I been born with female bits people would have merely thought me a bit of a tomboy and slightly butch. However as I had notionally male parts at birth nobody had any problems with that either and I was thought merely slightly soft and a little on the sensitive side. My point is that most cis peple are a natual mix too and thus if you have one of those middle ground personalities it doesnt mean you have to be "non-binary" - it just means you are pretty normal because most cis people are a spectrum of personality types and interests and behaviours too...
If a cis woman goes to football and mends cars she is just sporting and practical - if someone trans does the same OMG she must be non-binary!!!
Well no actually I'm not - I'm just a woman who happens to like a few unusual things and has a strong personality. Thats all. So while we all obviousy have the right to subjectively self define I actually think that true non binaries that I or anyone else would objectively recognise as such are actually rarer than hens teeth. All of which is not to say NB's dont exist, or are in any-way invalid. Just that I think they are actally quite rare.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on April 24, 2016, 02:35:00 AM
If a cis woman goes to football and mends cars she is just sporting and practical - if someone trans does the same OMG she must be non-binary!!!
I don't think so. Your gender isn't about what you do. Working on cars and liking football doesn't make you male or female.
Gender is about who you
are.
My gender has nothing to do with whether my habits and interests are masculine or feminine. My gender has to do with the fact that I don't have an internal sense of being male or female (most of the time).
We dont need to worry about labeling. I deliberately put two sometimes percieved as mutually exclusive terms in the thread title.
Like Susie i do not percieve myself as a woman. But if woman is defined by body sex and sexuality then i am a preop woman.
Its like getting a mammogram or peeing full out she. They dont know...i use my airy whisky voice. Staff does a doubletake before they call my trans name, insurance has my male name. I have a carry letter saying i am a nonbinary transgender woman from my shrink, i dont really need to do more than that.
We can gender activities. I can race cars. So can Danika. Our gender is not defined by traditionally male assigned activity.
Its that sense of belonging that strikes me as nonbinary. Not belonging to either gender. Being a combination of it instead, simultaneously.
Not having to hide under voice, or false body language, or voice tricks. Just being myself. Sh'e bodied and all.
But put me in a bathroom or doc office, im not letting anyone see a hint of male. Even on the street. Its a safety issue, i hide from evil men in plain sight as a full out girl.
It comes naturally to me anyway. Its not an act. Its only what i choose to reveal, just as it would be with a lover, when i allow myself to be taken. I let them in to my most vulnrable and special self. And thats all girl.
How much of my gender is reacting to social pressures?
A lot.
My real name is Trinity now.
My heart goes out to you my dears. It is nice to post in this section again with out being afraid.
Satinjoy
Hybrid is a good word for it :P
I never quite know how to justify my gender to people. I know I'm male, because I just do. That's about the extent of it. And that's a strange thing to have to justify.
I'm masculine enough that during the girl mode years, there was a lot of friendly teasing, but a few people are struggling to accept me as a trans man because, "You're just so feminine. You're so neutrois. Are you sure you're not something in between?" Makes me giggle every time. Femininity is not a trait that would ever have been applied to me had I not come out as trans.
My point...er, if I have one...
I assume that for most people, other people's perceptions are irrelevant to your internal sense of gender. You know that you're male/female/neither/both/NB/etc because - you just do.
Society's gender stereotypes make plenty of cis people deeply unhappy, it's worth remembering. You don't have to justify yourself by trying to fit the mould. And if, like most people, you don't fit - that doesn't put your actions in conflict with who you are. It just makes you a slightly more interesting person.
In my case, I spent my formative teenage years at an all girls school - I have no idea how to behave like a cis man, and I don't care :3 Socially, those were the best years of my life - gender barely existed there. We were just people. That's how I wish wider society was.
My transsexual twist? I consider myself binary male, but socially, I'm very much one of the girls. Hopefully when I sprout my beard, they'll still accept me :(
Quote from: Rejennyrated on April 24, 2016, 02:35:00 AM
Personally I think in many cases non-binary is probably an example of the kind of overthinking and over self-definition that we are all prone to do ...
I'm not a man, I'm not a woman. I'm non-binary.
Judging from the length of your reply compared to mine, it's obvious who's overthinking it. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Its an easy thing to overthink. Coping with being trans at all can drive you crazy. Add mixed gender perception into it, and it can get complicated. The important thing is learning to accept and cope with who you are. Whether binary or nonbinary.
I liked the respectful tone - and I trigger easy.
Since I am the op, just thought I'd say it. By the way, since I am putting up my usual self in my avatar..
Say hello to a hens tooth. Yup, sh'e has teeth lol. As the old ones know well....
Lets enjoy the thread... I am enjoying each and every post. Its good to ask the questions and learn from each other, to unite in trans.
:)
We have said it and heard it here many times before. There is much more than a single exclusive narrative for being a transgender person. Our deeply personal, subjective and intrinsic sense of gender and who we are is, for me, not a debate stage. I was troubled and found endless ways to avoid self acceptance as transgender because I once believed in a narrow interpretation of what is transgender. I socialized and worked with transgender people for decades but was able to find the differences in other's interpretation and experiences that I once thought must exclude me from the club.
Labels are an ephemeral bit of culture that we can have fun with and need not be such a minefield of you and them territory. I am also a Humanist and i enjoy the concept of creating and welcoming larger circles of humanity wherein everyone is included and we invite everyone to be IN.
Yup we are all in the IN CROWD so let us please celebrate our wonderful diversity, tenacity and beautiful expressions of self and culture.
I am 100% male, in the sense of gender identity. I don't feel like I could be anything else. It's an alien concept for me. I'm a trans man, fully man, it's just my body that doesn't align, and I want to transition completely at some point in my life. I will be waiting for better options for bottom surgery though, because that one is difficult.
I agree that gender has nothing to do with interests, hobbies or anything else. I have both "masculine and feminine interests". I am interested in plumbing and want to learn how to repair stuff. Just an example of typically masculine interests I have. But I also want to learn how to cook delicious food. I have very masculine interests but sometimes I'm also sophisticated in mannerisms and hand gestures, to the point sometimes I end up looking like an effeminate guy.
But all of this has absolutely nothing to do with my gender that I have always felt like it's 100% male.
I do not understand non-binary experiences simply because I could never imagine myself as non-binary, or anything else than man. It is difficult to understand what does not happen to me. It's kinda like how I could never understand cis people because I just don't know what it feels like to have body and brain sex aligned since birth.
But the great thing about the world is diversity. And especially in the LGBT community. I love how diverse we are yet we fight for the same right: to be accepted and loved just like everybody else.
As a completely binary trans guy I just don't understand the experience of non-binary trans people, but I will fight for everyone's rights and I don't need to fully understand other identities in order to empathize with their struggles. I wish all cis people could think like this. We wouldn't face all the hatred and discrimination we still face.
I don't know how rare non-binary people are. I just know they exist and experience gender in a different way that might sound confusing at first. It was tough for me to understand non-binary trans people. I guess what confused me was all those tumblr people that sometimes just give distorted views of things. But the posts in this thread clarified things immensely. So yeah, we're different and we might not fully understand each other's experiences, but it's a good thing to celebrate diversity within the trans community.
This is an interesting topic. For me when I began questioning my gender I thought I was gender queer then realised I never felt female and labelled myself a trans man. Now that I'm more confident in myself and on T I'd say I'm 90% male and 10% agender. I just feel like me; I love to be fem as well as masculine some days. I have agender days were I feel like I have no gender; were I just don't fit in any camp. I think to myself there are guys who like to be fem and wouldn't label themselves as nb but are cis; yet when I say to myself I am a man; it just doesn't sit right. I feel uneasy when someone's says he or Mr to me. Which I think marks the difference between people who simply like to dress and act in a way which isn't a steotype of their gender and people who aren't cis and fit somewhere in the trans spectrum.
Reading Jossam's post I would love to be able to swap brains with him to know what being a 100% male feels like. But I suppose it's just an innate feeling which is impossible to explain much like me feeling agender; which is hella confusing. There's a NB social group meeting this sat which I'm thinking I'm going too. It'll be great to learn more about nbs and hopefully I'll get some answers myself.
Sometimes I feel like I don't fit anywhere socially because being pre-everything, I don't know what it feels like to grow facial hair and shave it, for example. So if a group of guys discusses about facial hair I feel like I still can't understand that experience, but at some point in life I finally will. So I feel like I still fit because after all, no matter what our physical differences are we all share the same male identity and it's like a big family with diverse people who still share one main thing in common.
But in a group of women I feel totally out of place even when they start discussing about things like physical "events" I experience too...for example periods. It just makes me feel really weird and like a total alien among humans, even when they talk about merely physical things that my body experiences too. Not to mention when they start talking about girly things, but that's a different story and is completely social.
But I guess it's a totally different thing I am discussing here. We were talking about our inner and deep sense of identity regardless of anatomy or physical functions. And well, that is completely binary male for me, so if I start thinking about non-binary people I just can't picture myself like that. I just can't grasp the concept lol. Agender is even more complex. And saying 90% male and 10% agender is extremely confusing to me lol so yeah swapping brains for one day would be the only way for us to understand each other. I agree, it's innate and there is no way to fully understand someone else's gender experience.
The coolest thing though is that we recognize all these different experiences of self are real, and valid.
I see both sides because my body dysphoria and sex and sexuality is quite binary TS female, but my social experience is extremely fluid. Male, female, and all other nonbinary experiences - its all part of who I am and how I live in this world.
Love this thread.
SJ
Jossam I can kind of relate. I'm 6 months on T but still can't grow facial hair and I don't think I look as masculine as other trans guys who've reached the 6 month mark. So socially I can't really relate to other guys and feel distant from them; yet I don't feel completely male anyway which makes me feel even more distant. I think I'm just past or almost past the awkward months were I look in between and sort of awkward; so I believe to most people I look like a really young guy. But I can't see it and it makes me feel self conscious because people aren't seeing the 'real' me or I'm not sure if there seeing me as an LGBTQ person.
I think when I hear girls discuss periods or shopping; I can relate because I was seen as female and went through these same things; but it feels alien to me because they're discussing it from a female perspective; not my experiences. I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm talking to a fem guy about shopping because I'm a fem guy myself so can understand the awkwardness and difficulty of going through that. Or talking to a AFAB person about periods; because they understand the awkwardness; dysphoria and humour of going through that as a trans person.
I think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain. There are no tests for it and no clear way of fully explaining it. It's simply an unquantifiable 'feeling' I just hope when I go to the nb meet up I won't be the only one like me there. You only seem to hear of people being 100% agender or people being a mix of female and male.
On this subject I feel as though I can relate to some degree to all people, by virtue of being human and because of the generally similar behavior/hopes/fears/dreams humans all tend to have, but also at the same time to no other people, because I have zero experience of being in another person's head, feeling their feelings or living their life.
I can only look at the human species as a whole and say, well, I have no true idea what it is to be a human other than myself - male or female; but I know that there's a definite disparity on average between the things women like to do and how they speak and act and associate with other women and men, etc. and the way that I approach these things. I notice how men find me "odd" for a female and women also find me "odd" for a female; but I also highly suspect should my gender be switched I would immediately be considered to some degree a "typical" male. It's for this reason I've identified myself as male - the observed similarities between myself and males in general, as well as the unfortunate fact that we need labels because we need language to communicate these things.
I'd be quite happy if there was no such thing as gender in the world - if philosophy and intellectual pursuits were far more important than expressing those things, or if all human beings happened to be asexual or hermaphroditic. Really wouldn't bother me or freak me out. It might be less interesting... but yes, my identity is really one of observation and convenience. More other people's convenience than mine, I suppose.
Quote from: arice on April 23, 2016, 05:36:46 PM
I consider myself masculine of centre and I'd like top surgery and possibly hormones... but I also don't negate the effects of my lifetime being seen as some sort of female. I think that if I had transitioned as a child or teen then I might have been able to be a binary trans guy... but I didn't know it was an option.
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This is exactly what my wife is going through now. She chose Transmasculine as her label.
MOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay. I don't know what your orientation is, but there is a lot of good info out there if you google under this.
Also, a big influence on MOC and non binary people is Ivan Coyote, you can Youtube her stuff. They are an author and right on the forefront of the movement. That really helped my wife to feel more comfortable(not to mention the fact I have a huge crush on Ivan myself ;) ). I hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUKAVcj9NVA
Quote from: Feminator on May 01, 2016, 10:53:15 AM
This is exactly what my wife is going through now. She chose Transmasculine as her label.
MOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay. I don't know what your orientation is, but there is a lot of good info out there if you google under this.
Also, a big influence on MOC and non binary people is Ivan Coyote, you can Youtube her stuff. They are an author and right on the forefront of the movement. That really helped my wife to feel more comfortable(not to mention the fact I have a huge crush on Ivan myself ;) ). I hope this helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUKAVcj9NVA
Thank you. I appreciate your response.
I lIke men and when I was younger that kind of kept me from pursuing aNY kind of transition. I am 37 and when I was hitting puberty, I saw how cruel people were to gay men... and that contributed to me teenage decision to try to pass as a straight woman... which I did with intermittent success...
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Quote from: Elis on May 01, 2016, 10:03:53 AM
Jossam I can kind of relate. I'm 6 months on T but still can't grow facial hair and I don't think I look as masculine as other trans guys who've reached the 6 month mark. So socially I can't really relate to other guys and feel distant from them; yet I don't feel completely male anyway which makes me feel even more distant. I think I'm just past or almost past the awkward months were I look in between and sort of awkward; so I believe to most people I look like a really young guy. But I can't see it and it makes me feel self conscious because people aren't seeing the 'real' me or I'm not sure if there seeing me as an LGBTQ person.
I think when I hear girls discuss periods or shopping; I can relate because I was seen as female and went through these same things; but it feels alien to me because they're discussing it from a female perspective; not my experiences. I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm talking to a fem guy about shopping because I'm a fem guy myself so can understand the awkwardness and difficulty of going through that. Or talking to a AFAB person about periods; because they understand the awkwardness; dysphoria and humour of going through that as a trans person.
I think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain. There are no tests for it and no clear way of fully explaining it. It's simply an unquantifiable 'feeling' I just hope when I go to the nb meet up I won't be the only one like me there. You only seem to hear of people being 100% agender or people being a mix of female and male.
I understand. I look like a teen guy with no facial hair, but we all know that unless they have some special condition, cis men already have facial hair when they're 23. So, me not having facial hair at all puts me in an awkward place where I can pass as cis male pre T, but more like a 16 year old teen and not a 23 year old man, and some people ask me how old I am when I buy cigarettes, or talk to me like they'd talk to a teen boy, and it just feels awkward because I'm not a teen anymore, but it was perfectly fine years ago. More rarely, strangers read female (must be my mannerisms, I'm not really the macho kind of guy, so people might focus on those + lack of facial hair), which is even worse, of course. Anyway, regardless of society, I want to transition because I want my body to match my gender. Doesn't matter what society says, I don't want this current body, and passing will never be as important as looking in the mirror, alone in a room, and saying "wow, now this is the body I like!"
QuoteI can only look at the human species as a whole and say, well, I have no true idea what it is to be a human other than myself
This.
QuoteI think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain.
Also this.
QuoteMOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay.
And this is where my brain completely stops understanding and I get extremely confused. ???
I guess me and other people who are totally binary transsexuals are very boring compared to others :laugh:
I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male ???. I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.
I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender :D
Quote from: Elis on May 02, 2016, 05:54:38 AM
I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male ???. I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.
I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender :D
I absolutely agree with Elis here. To me all these labels sound a bit unnecessary and people who have so many mixed feelings sound like they need to figure out and find themselves. I do not mean to be disrespectful here, it's just that the more I try to understand such "mixed identities" the less I understand and I end up with a headache :)
The MOC concept sounds really confusing to me. I looked it up on Google and my head hurts lol
I can understand NB as a concept; I'm able to understand gender queer and agender but anything else and I'm lost. There's too many labels and too many sub categories. I get people label themselves so that they fit within a community and so they feel less like a freak; but where do you draw the line on which labels are necessary and which blur into each other. I don't wish to disrespect anyone. I really hope I don't accidentally offend someone at the nb group :P
Quote from: Elis on May 02, 2016, 05:54:38 AM
I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male ???. I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.
I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender :D
No offense taken. :)
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian. This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.
I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?' If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. :-\
Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken. :)
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian. This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.
I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?' If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. :-\
I would imagine that, for your spouse (like me), it's not that they necessarily want to be completely masculine but they do want to be more masculine than their body currently is... also would feel like correcting a lifetime of feminine hormones.
Although I have to say that if I could magically have a completely masculine body, I would be ecstatic. I would also be more comfortable with some of my feminine traits if I was seen as a guy... my problem is not with my more feminine behaviours, my problem is with being seen as a woman, because I don't see myself as one.
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Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken. :)
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian. This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.
I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?' If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. :-\
Thanks for explaining :). So wouldn't butch meant you mostly felt female?
I'm the same as Arice. I want a more masculine looking body; as I feel my body currently isn't the real me. I also hate being read female as I'm not one; but would feel a lot more comfortable expressing my fem side if I was read male. Then again I feel mostly male so not sure if that 'properly' counts as me being nb.
Yes I understand NB too (I used to be confused about that too, now I'm not), and agender of course, but yes there are so many labels. I knew butch lesbian meant masculine and then there's femme. But wouldn't saying transmasculine imply that the person is trans? So if an afab lesbian says they're transmasculine wouldn't it place them among trans people? And she wouldn't be lesbian but a straight trans man? Because a masculine lesbian is butch but still identifies as woman. Why say transmasculine then and not simply masculine or butch? Cause after all, as far as I know lesbians all identify as women. See this is where labels completely confuse me. Sometimes I think labels can make things easier but also harder.
I want my body completely male and my gender is completely male so it makes me binary, but sometimes I have slightly effeminate mannerisms so being read as male and having a male body would make me feel more comfortable with expressing my feminine side. I think we all have a feminine and masculine side and in most people one prevails over the other. It happens to cis and trans people. Everyone. And it has nothing to do with gender identity, just mannerisms/behavior. But for a trans man who is read as female by people he's not out to often avoids doing things that might be seen as feminine because well....it's obvious, he does not want others to interpret effeminate mannerisms as being a woman and this invalidates his real gender. I don't know if it makes sense but that's what happens to me.
I guess most cis people have stereotypes about us trans people. They expect a trans woman to be very girly and feminine and a trans man to be very manly and macho but it doesn't always work like that. And cis people are not all like that so I don't know why they expect us to be like that. I feel like small things that are ignored in cis people have a different social meaning in trans people where some cis people use them to invalidate our gender.
In the end I think each trans person is unique, binary or nb. I find nb people fascinating because it's like they break all the rules of gender, and because they prove that the world is not all black and white, but it has shades of gray. So gender identity, like physical sex, is not black and white, it only has black and white poles, the extremes (male and female) and nb people are the gray shades in between. That's how I interpret it and this image helped me better understand them :)
And agender people are out of the male/female spectrum so...a different color? :) I find it easier to imagine things in colors/images/etc. instead of words and labels lol
Quote from: Elis on May 03, 2016, 03:30:13 AM
Thanks for explaining :). So wouldn't butch meant you mostly felt female?
I'm the same as Arice. I want a more masculine looking body; as I feel my body currently isn't the real me. I also hate being read female as I'm not one; but would feel a lot more comfortable expressing my fem side if I was read male. Then again I feel mostly male so not sure if that 'properly' counts as me being nb.
Thanks your both your replies. My wife did say she does not feel either female, nor male, so that is the struggle currently for her. She really would like to present more masculine, but does not feel male. Obviously this is confusing. She did say she did not want bottom surgery, and although I feel awful for saying this, I am relieved. Cost aside, I really prefer women. My biggest issue is that I had to really work hard to accept being lesbian in the first place and it would be daunting at best, to have to work through it the other way now! lol I would of course, because she
is worth it to me.
Butch is used for gay women, their sexual orientation. Only gay women who dress more masculine are considered Butch, and some Butch women use it as a gender identity as well. So, that is what leads to confusion, because then you have Feminine of center, feels female but dresses masculine, and Masculine of center who don't want to change their gender but feel masculine and dress so. Non Binary in other words. Like I said, it's a big thing right now in my community and many people are up in arms and such about Butch shaming, Trans shaming etc. Sometimes I think people just need something to argue about. :P
Quote from: jossam on May 03, 2016, 08:51:37 AM
Yes I understand NB too (I used to be confused about that too, now I'm not), and agender of course, but yes there are so many labels. I knew butch lesbian meant masculine and then there's femme. But wouldn't saying transmasculine imply that the person is trans? So if an afab lesbian says they're transmasculine wouldn't it place them among trans people? And she wouldn't be lesbian but a straight trans man? Because a masculine lesbian is butch but still identifies as woman. Why say transmasculine then and not simply masculine or butch? Cause after all, as far as I know lesbians all identify as women. See this is where labels completely confuse me. Sometimes I think labels can make things easier but also harder
This is the heart of the issue about Butches in the LGBT community. Exactly how you state it, it causes people to argue about everyone's labels. Most lesbians do identify as women, but again, not all. So, you pretty much nailed the whole argument on the head. :laugh:
QuoteI guess most cis people have stereotypes about us trans people. They expect a trans woman to be very girly and feminine and a trans man to be very manly and macho but it doesn't always work like that. And cis people are not all like that so I don't know why they expect us to be like that. I feel like small things that are ignored in cis people have a different social meaning in trans people where some cis people use them to invalidate our gender.
I know it. It seems stereotypes are really crazy. Honestly, I never knew as a cis person that anyone who didn't feel either male or female is considered Trans of some sort or another. People just need to let people be themselves and the world will be such a nice place.(call me a dreamer!)
I dont worry about labels they dont define me. I also dont feel confused at all. Far from it.
Its usually hard for binary to understand nonbinary genders. We have been socially exposed to all or nothing stuff. Girl or boy. Lol i am girl AND boy. Or my own special gender....
The answers are out there, and in here.
Comes down to respect. And finding yourself when you are in a binary world?
Yes. Its complicated but deep inside, we all know who we are. Just as you do darlings.
:)
Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken. :)
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian. This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.
I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?' If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. :-\
Point of the thread. Nonbinary physical dysphoria is as bad as binary for some of us. Yet socially we may be anything, and our core gender also anything.
Trust me on that. Im very nonbinary, and my dysphoria when the shirt is off, the hair thin, the breasts small and the ribcage large...
It hurts darlings. A lot.
I need my body and estrogen to feel ok. Binary or nonbinary doesnt matter at that point. The relentless punishing agony of gender dysphoria is what matters.
Put me in a suit and im still ts body and sex, but youd never know till you see my nails. Which are gorgeous, long and clear polished.
Im a blend. Until the night falls and the candles and incense are lit in satin and silk.
☺
I guess I'm one of the "non-binary transsexuals" although I'm only just identifying this as a "category" for me to fit into. I always just thought of myself as hybrid too until recently.
I am actually a biological male although I have never been 'masculine'. I considered myself gay.
However in my twenties I discovered transsexualism and became somewhat obsessed by it. Although I realised a full transition would for me never be possible or desired I knew that there was something not quite right with what "I" saw (not what others saw). After researching for many years I started on low dose MtF hormones and quickly found the balance emotionally and physically to be content. I later discovered the term 'crossdreamer' and ' ->-bleeped-<-' and think this is most probably the most descriptive although I'm concerned that portrays me as a sexual deviant, which I am not.
I'm probably waffling. I guess that gives an indication of where I am though.
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->-bleeped-<- is typically used when someone doesnt understand nonbinary and misapplies it as a diagnosis. It is not valid.
Pm me and i can chat with you. I was misdiagnosed with that once. If your a blend of course you are attracted to what you see in the mirror. Then they label it autog.
I finally was diagnosed by someone else as a nonbinary transgender woman. Yup.
Auto g is a discredited cis theory dear.
Talk w me on it in the nb section or better in pm. Its a diagnosis that makes people mad and gets threads locked.
But see how little understanding of nb trans is there? They take their paradyne and try to apply it to ours. That wont work. We are our own paradynes and way bigger than labels and butterfly collections of trans types.
We are unboxable, not freaks or weird, just free to be us. And deserving to be happy as us.
SJ
->-bleeped-<- is discredited and that is indeed the reason why you shouldn't feel like a deviant.
Please note that discussion of ->-bleeped-<- isn't permitted on this forum.
Just another data point:
I consider myself female-presenting non-binary. (Well, I'll be "female-presenting" once I get further along in my transition.)
As I've said in probably too many posts already, I don't "identify as" any gender. For me, gender only exists as something I have to navigate when dealing with other people, and I cannot understand what it means to "identify as male" or "identify as female." When I'm by myself and don't have to worry about anybody seeing me, I'm just me.
However, I've decided that, since I have to (and want to) interact with other members of my species, and there are basically two protocols: "male" and "female", I much prefer the "female" protocol. Not to mention that I would much prefer looking female than male. (Almost certainly due to cultural brainwashing, but it's easier to modify my body than to modify six decades of brainwashing.) Yes, this means I also want SRS.
Right now, I think a big part of my preference for living as a woman is due to the fact that the male socialization I suffered traumatized me to the point that I have a life-long aversion to anything masculine or male. You could even say I'm something of a misandrist, although I try not to let my prejudices influence how I treat people.
Thanks
☺
SJ and Asche, your posts were super interesting. It doesn't matter I can't fully understand non-binary people, what matters is that I acknowledge your pain and I find it as real as mine or as the one of other binary transsexuals. We might be different but we all have things in common after all :)
Thank you for sharing such interesting perspectives.
Quote from: Asche on May 04, 2016, 10:55:10 AM
Right now, I think a big part of my preference for living as a woman is due to the fact that the male socialization I suffered traumatized me to the point that I have a life-long aversion to anything masculine or male. You could even say I'm something of a misandrist, although I try not to let my prejudices influence how I treat people.
It's pretty funny I also realize I'm something of a misandrist (although I try to fight my biases). But I contribute it to being jealous of men and their bodies and their social status, and always wanting to have been born male. I have moments when I resent cis men for not realizing how lucky and privileged they are. So it's very confusing then to want to be one.
In my humble view of the world I believe everyone is more or less non-binary - I think it's probably more rare that someone resides at the extreme end of the gender spectrum. Seems we don't always separate between gender and sex when we discuss non-binary issues.
This thread is delightful.
:)
Satinjoy - I don't seem able to PM you?
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You will not be able to PM until you reach 15 post.
Thank you Dena
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5 more darling...
☺
Another exotic hybrid here... I was assigned male, and when I started transitioning I briefly identified as female. It became clear that I wasn't going to fit any better as female than male... I struggled to define myself for the longest time, and I've found peace in not identifying at all. I'm me. I look like a transwoman -- I dress femme 95% of the time. But then I walk, talk, and largely act like a man.
I see myself as being tall, handsome, and brainy-looking. I love the shape of my body, and all of its parts. Oh, and I've got red hair, too... so I've got that unattainably exotic thing turned up to 11. Good thing I'm married, or nobody could get through my ego enough to date me. ;)