Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Im srearching for good clinic that made FFS for transgender girls , the side of FACIAL TEAM and everything is perfect...
Since im new here , are the results from girls here about tzhem more negative or positive???

Thank you i saw the pics he is really good
Do you know how about prices beetween them to
facial team has it from 8000eu to 20000eu
about VAN i cant find the costs have you???

Facial Team are good, very good. One of the top surgeons worldwide. Me and a friend had full ffs there. Now we have a 100% passing, we hg Po ad no complications and a short healing. I worked on the 12th day after surgery full time (took 11 days off).

Hi Ruby,

I had FFS with Facial Team exactly three weeks ago and I have never been happier.

My journey facially began in 2004 and you can read my first thread which will tell you about the first and seconds parts of my twelve year journey.

First thread:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180029.0.html

In addition I started this thread that is related to my 2004 facial surgery

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,200643.0.html

My final thread is current as I am still in the process of writing it and here it is:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,199847.0.html

Enjoy your journey and decision making process ...  :)

Hugs

Paula

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 27, 2016, 08:17:06 AM
Im srearching for good clinic that made FFS for transgender girls , the side of FACIAL TEAM and everything is perfect...
Since im new here , are the results from girls here about tzhem more negative or positive???

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 27, 2016, 12:45:25 PM
Thank you i saw the pics he is really good
Do you know how about prices beetween them to
facial team has it from 8000eu to 20000eu
about VAN i cant find the costs have you???

You could have a look here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138066.msg1143163.html#msg1143163

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,200480.msg1782877.html#msg1782877

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=190455.0

With FT some people reported some issues with noses ... you might tell very clear what you want.


hugs

Lara and Paula thats wonderful was it above 20.000eu?
thw whole procedure
im sooo happy you are happy girls

Hi Ruby,

Here's my prices:

Complex Craniofacial reconstruction   
Complex third Rhinoplasty   
Liplift
Hospital Fees, Meds + Operating Theatre Reserved & 2 nights Private Room + Board
General Anaesthesia
Material costs (customised 3D model of the forehead for study)

Total 18250 EUROS = £14204.96 at current rate of 0.78

Remember that no jaw/chin work was needed or hairgrafting ...  :)
   

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 27, 2016, 05:43:02 PM
Lara and Paula thats wonderful was it above 20.000eu?
thw whole procedure
im sooo happy you are happy girls

Thank you very much dear Paula for sharing  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

Hi Ruby,

You are more than welcome ....  :)

Forgot to mention but this was the second upper lip lift as the first one was too weak and also the inappropriate fat was also removed that had the effect due to it's weight of negating the original ULL.

If it's not too much of a personal question, what part of the world are you from? No need to tell me if you don't wish to for privacy reasons.

Have a great day.

Hugs

Paula

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 28, 2016, 02:41:34 AM
Thank you very much dear Paula for sharing  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

I am from Europe, so Spain would be my option

Awesome ...  :)

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 28, 2016, 09:15:52 AM
I am from Europe, so Spain would be my option

Quote from: RUBYYY on April 27, 2016, 12:45:25 PM
Thank you i saw the pics he is really good
Do you know how about prices beetween them to
facial team has it from 8000eu to 20000eu
about VAN i cant find the costs have you???

I think the cost is similar, but u can actually send a request with ur own pics, and the doctor Will tell u what he suggest u to do and the prices! ;)

Go to Facial Team for the facial work, but avoid doing rhinoplasty or lip lift there!!

Shoko thank you for the advice

Hi Ruby,

Shoko is not happy with the nose and upper lip lift done by Dr Bellinga recently, but I am.

I would love to see fotos of her nose and ULL before and after surgery but unless I do, I will not comment or give an opinion, for what it's worth.

I had a poor nose job and upper lip lift done in the USA in February 2004 and Dr Bellinga has done a good job on mine.

It was a very difficult procedure too as it was my third nose job.

In fact my complex forehead procedure took just 90 minutes but the rhinoplasty/ULL took 150 minutes. Total 4 hours and then 8 hours in recovery just to keep an eye on me due to my age.

So it's all a matter of opinion and personal taste whether you like a rhinoplasty or not.

Having had three attempts at my nose, now I am 100% happy although it's still very early days since the surgery ( three weeks and three days ), and it will be months before I see the final result which I will share with you all in due course.

The first few days after a rhinoplasty the nose almost always looks great and then the healing starts in earnest and the swelling starts and you think "Ohmigod "- what have I done and the surgeon has messed up.

With my healing process anyway, my nose always starts to look worse and worse for the first few weeks after surgery and then slowly it gets better. With others I have seen nose jobs that look good even after a month's healing has taken place. We all heal differently and at different rates.

The last five days or so, my top lip has become numb and fatter whereas a week ago it was not numb and less fat.

It also makes drinking and eating more difficult.

But I accept this although I don't like it as people look at me and see that I have had surgery. Yesterday when I was at an event, I kept telling people who I know that I had some cosmetic surgery when they asked what was wrong with my face as they were concerned that I had an accident.

All that I can say is you have to have patience with any surgery while the body takes time to heal.

What us girls go through eh to get where we wish to go?

I have seen in person around thirty of Facial Team's patients in London when they have been in consultation here and also in Spain who have had rhinoplasties with FT's Dr Bellinga and everyone looked good and I mean that 100%.

So I highly recommend FT for noses.

Here is my before foto with the piggy and too short nose for my face and ineffective ULL which was made even worse by the weight of the fat put in during surgery in the USA in 2004.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTFdTo6G.jpg&hash=815e7524b0502b1c2c8e388dc38a8518e81c8625) (http://imgur.com/TFdTo6G)

and after surgery in April with a decent sized nose, much better ULL and fat removed.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfgCDuML.jpg&hash=d2ffb81ea74a7a4b3cce690ecce8d7349c515142) (http://imgur.com/fgCDuML)

Just out of interest to you all. here is my nose about three weeks after my 2nd rhinoplasty in 2004 (USA) and look what a mess it looked. It took over a year for the nose and ULL scar to fully heal. To be fair, the ULL scar was hardly noticeable once it had healed but the nose was always incorrect for my face and I was left with a raised ridge below my right alars after it had healed. Dr Bellinga has removed that scar/ridge from the 2004 surgery when he performed the fresh ULL and also improved the right alarpasty incision from 2004. * Note also the over raised eyebrows !!! My bruising by the way from my recent surgery has now gone so what a difference then from 2004. Using an endoscope usually causes more disturbance to the soft tissues which you don't get with an open procedure.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJLgNWGE.jpg&hash=d97323026d5b39071f8febe26d8036e31976e97e) (http://imgur.com/JLgNWGE)

Another foto of my face five weeks after surgery in 2004.

You can see also the poor forehead result due to burring whereas now my forehead is properly feminised.

Today I was seen by two friends of mine who had surgery also by the same surgeon as mine from 2004 and they were very impressed with my forehead/nose and ULL so far. But as we agreed, it's all too swollen at this moment before making a final judgement.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZIBvGip.jpg&hash=807dd993453c0292875232a2d29f627488144c21) (http://imgur.com/ZIBvGip)

Incidentally if an ULL scar needs it, it can always be lasered to improve it's appearance down the healing road.

You are always going to get patients who are not satisfied with some or all aspects of their FFS, that's part of the game, so to speak.

Hugs

Paula

PS.

Here is a foto of me taken at 23 weeks and 5 days after my Feb 2004 rhinoplasty and ULL in the USA ( 6 months later in August 2004). See the ULL scarring/redness/swelling still which finally went away and the scar eventually was very good to be fair to the surgeon. Also my nose is less swollen but still piggy like. The whole surgery took another year to look optimal but during this time I had to travel to the USA and have kenalog (steroid) injections to my nose especially the right side which coincidentally is the most swollen part right now.

As the forehead swelling had largely subsided, you can also now see that the forehead was already looking poor and the transition area below my forehead and above my nose was never worked on/feminised in 2004.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqEo0jp5.jpg&hash=72cc26bca8f5b16f2027ddc140514851fa11b410) (http://imgur.com/qEo0jp5)


My forehead 3D CT Scan in May 2015 before my April FT surgery

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEWuJtT4.jpg&hash=a5236ddd8c2150a4f16e93df5abf61675935d517) (http://imgur.com/EWuJtT4)

and afterwards two days after the surgery. What a difference !!!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJiWANso.jpg&hash=0a35dfa06a6e8e54747190c8206b38bc53d71182) (http://imgur.com/JiWANso)

Hi Ruby,

I don't want to repeat myself as I have also posted this on my thread but this afternoon I went food shopping at my local Tesco's (equivalent to Walmart in the USA in many ways ) and a cashier Sue that I have known for some time said that I looked amazing when I told her that I only had surgery 25 days ago. That really cheered me up ... :)

Frankly when I look at my face right now compared to where I was 12 years ago, the difference in my nose swelling and the ULL incision situation is in a different ball park. Also all the visible bruising has totally gone now.

I am exceedingly happy folks and looking forward to the rest of the holiday weekend.

I went for a 30 mile drive just now too.

Paula

Hi Denize,

Thank you for your lovely reply  < hugs >

I am stealth on Facebook so sadly I cannot be friends with you BUT we can keep in touch by e-mail or phone if you wish.

Let me know please by PM.

In the meantime take care and look after yourself.

I am shortly off to bed, lots of sleep is good for healing ....  ;)

Paula  xx

Quote from: RUBYYY on May 01, 2016, 02:14:01 PM
Paula you look amazing, and 1000000000 hugs and big thank you for sharing this all. im sooo happy for you, and am very anxious to save the money as soon as possiblle and go to Spain, they also send me what kind of fotos i have to make etc...
Thank you Paula
If you have facebook be free to add me its Denize taylor loncar
also anybody who need an extra friend and is also on they journey or ready to share good and bad days
Have all a wonderful Spring and may the universe make as fast as it is possiblle our dreams to become true

I am new at everything, cuz i start to search for help last year, i live as intersex my whole life and people knew me only as a girlie boy, or a masculine girl, or an androginist look like person, so i never fit anywhere, for gay guys i was to feminine, and i had no woody( sorry but its because of the genetics) thats why i have not lot bottom tissue so my srs surgeon in the future needs to know how to make a good depth out of not much tissue
Also my face i dont know what HRT will do, if the luck is on my side i think after blood results i need to start them in the end of the year, wich is good, cuz i have to loose weight, learn to stop bringe eating
Im very young but was very fast an adict of alcohol, smoked alot and used time to time drugs, everything because of my unhappiness and face dysforia
My fahter left me when i was little, well a long sad story my life has been those 24years so im hopping for happier next 25 years
Im finishing my univirsity , have some exams still, and have now only a as needed job, wich is only for money helping me my mama, so we have for food, and i can go to IPL laser and buy make up, i dont party, dont go out, dont have many friends who lives near, i live in a vilage so im very expoused to people 20km around me cuz its all so small, an extra suffering
So i hope to learn this years here more about a good FFS doctor for me
See what HRT will do to my Face
And hope i find soon a regular job to start save for FFS
Im thankful that here in europe FFS is not so expensive like in USA but still money is on the secont range cuz the most important thing is to find a good doctor
Bless you all with love, and if i do or write some mistakes forgive me im learning plus sorry for my english my german, slovenian or croatian is better but im giving my best
Now on 9th may is my birhtday and i have the first apoinment in the morning on this day with an edrocrilogist ehhe what a nice birthday gift, the last months i have had done the mental chek outs, as we need here in our Country fisrt do that and then you get the green light and go on to recive Hrt
lots of love Denize

Thanks for sharing your story Denize, I wish you the best and you are young so you have time :)

Morning Denize,

I agree with all that Shoko has said to you.

Could not have said it better myself.

Just enjoy the journey now and life too.

It's an amazing trip and I would do it all again tomorrow despite all the ups and downs.

Hugs

Paula

Quote from: shoko on May 01, 2016, 10:31:47 PM
Thanks for sharing your story Denize, I wish you the best and you are young so you have time :)

Thank you my girls, may the life bless you with only beautiful things

I just used a first class plastic surgeon for work on my face. I'm lucky I guess since my features were pretty female anyway. I had a complete face lift & eye lid work 2 years ago & I look so much better.

Hi FrancisAnn,

That's awesome ... 8)

You are one of the more fortunate girls.

When I look at my pre surgery fotos before 2004, I was very attractive and passable except for the forehead which has taken 12 years to get right, thanks to poor surgery. G'rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!! The day that I was sold a second nose job in 2004 was a very bad day for me.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeDnzoyI.jpg&hash=473a230ba0c34de4b5e4c1eca910e8e21de2a59d) (http://imgur.com/eDnzoyI)

One of the patient's mother in Spain last month looked at my fotos and thought in some shots that I looked like Julia Roberts. This was taken in 1999 when I was 54.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0fsveu7.jpg&hash=ba945eb6c42845ac3f65151f248e121a329acb77) (http://imgur.com/0fsveu7)

Hugs

Paula

Quote from: FrancisAnn on May 02, 2016, 05:35:23 AM
I just used a first class plastic surgeon for work on my face. I'm lucky I guess since my features were pretty female anyway. I had a complete face lift & eye lid work 2 years ago & I look so much better.

Quote from: shoko on April 30, 2016, 08:39:19 AM
Go to Facial Team for the facial work, but avoid doing rhinoplasty or lip lift there!!

Dear Shoko

I am an Asian MTF considering FFS either at FT or in Korea(Faceline).May I know your thoughts on if the facial work at FT is good?

Regards
Isla

I am also considering Facialteam for FFS. The prices are average and the surgery seems to be good. Some peopple complain about the rhinoplasty and to be honest, some of the pictures in the gallery show not the perfect noses, but some of them I like, so it probably is more a matter of the things you have to work with. Dr Bellinga who does Rhinoplasty with the team has a facebook website with more pictures of surgeries he does independently and I think most of them look very good, actually. I am not sure if a feminizing rhinoplasty is more complex than a rhinoplasty on other women?

Facialteam has in my opinion some advantages and some disadvantages.

What I like about them is that they are very concerned about the patients and their wishes, the consultations are great, they explain it very well. They also use quite good 3D imaging before the surgery and actually 3D-print a model of your skull to plan the surgery with, I believe. They have specialists for each part of the face , which can be an advantage (more specialization) or a disadvantage (not one surgeon planning the overall aesthetics).

I like that they have a recovery house for patients to stay in for the first days instead of going to a hotel alone.

I really like their gallery which is IMO the best so far since it shows very comparable pictures before and after from the precisely right angles and views. I dislike this in other FFS websites, that they just show any casual pictures, sometimes comparing pre-transition photos with post-surgery photos that are made with good makeup and new hairstyle.

I also like that they do the coronal incision for forehead surgery and shape the hairline with transplants - this is IMO safer in terms of recovery of the nerves on the scalp and the scar is better hidden, but it limits the amount of hairline advance if that is an issue.

I believe however they are striving very much for more natural looks and tend to change rather less than more, for some patients this may be not enough, if they want to see very drastic changes.

Sadly the lip lift seems to be donw with the "bullhorn" method and not the newer endonasal technique, I am not sure if this is  done because the rhinoplasty is done at the same time and it would not work otherwise or if they just did not yet adapt the newer technique.

Quote from: Isla24Irisviel on February 12, 2017, 05:21:28 PM
Dear Shoko

I am an Asian MTF considering FFS either at FT or in Korea(Faceline).May I know your thoughts on if the facial work at FT is good?

Regards
Isla

Dear Isla,

Love your name, I actually almost chose that one before deciding on my actual name change :)

I'm not familiar with Faceline, but as far as Facial Team I think my advice above stands.

Dear Shoko

I see

From what I've felt FT can do work on the face.But a nagging question has always been:Can they make me pretty as well?I guess I'm greedy anyway.But FFS and SRS is the last thing I want to do in my life(even if I'm 24 years old)

Oh,Isla is adapted from an anime character Irisviel.It also means an island in Scottish.Its the island of utopia..the island of dreams beyond all dreams

Regards
Isla

Quote from: Isla24Irisviel on February 13, 2017, 02:40:32 PM
Dear Shoko

I see

From what I've felt FT can do work on the face.But a nagging question has always been:Can they make me pretty as well?I guess I'm greedy anyway.But FFS and SRS is the last thing I want to do in my life(even if I'm 24 years old)

Oh,Isla is adapted from an anime character Irisviel.It also means an island in Scottish.Its the island of utopia..the island of dreams beyond all dreams

Regards
Isla

Well "pretty" is subjective of course, but it just depends what you want to do.  FT won't do too much if you don't need or want it.

I visited Facial Team in Marbella, in person last week for a consultation.
I had a cranial CT scan there, plus 2D and 3D photos taken, and a consultation with two of their surgeons.
Then I visited their 'recovery house' run by two trans women.
All this was at no cost to me, and they also paid for all of my taxi transfers to and from Malaga airport.
I was very impressed with them, and they came across as very professional and caring.
I'm just waiting for them to send over the results of the 'virtual FFS' simulation as the person who does that for them was not available when I visited.
I had an idea of what I wanted beforehand, but I deliberately did not mention this to them because I wanted to hear what they would recommend. Especially if they had recommended changing things or procedures that I did not consider were needed.
In the event, they suggested working on the exact things that I myself was most concerned with, namely brow bossing/recontouring plus orbital recontouring, tracheal shave, and hair transplants at the sides of my head where the male-pattern recession has occurred.
I came away feeling very impressed. I took my sceptical anti-FFS boyfriend along with me, and he came away with a totally new viewpoint, and is now 100% supportive if I decide to go ahead with everything.
I would totally recommend a personal visit to see them, as it can really help you with your own decision on FFS.

Quote from: V on February 27, 2017, 07:38:48 AM
I'm just waiting for them to send over the results of the 'virtual FFS' simulation as the person who does that for them was not available when I visited.

Interesting. I have an appointment with them next March 9th and the vffs person (I assume it would be Alexandra) won't be available either.

Hmm but for an Asian face?
I'm on the verge of cancelling not because they arent good,but rather I'm not sure if they will be able to make me that sort of pretty face,they can feminize you ,but could they make me pretty?Especially since I'm an Asian and many European faces don't have the issues Asian faces have.

I will lose a lot of money due to the currency conversion...

I am thinking of Regen in Korea

Shoko/other people,what do you think?

Quote from: Isla24Irisviel on February 27, 2017, 03:11:55 PM
Hmm but for an Asian face?
I'm on the verge of cancelling not because they arent good,but rather I'm not sure if they will be able to make me that sort of pretty face,they can feminize you ,but could they make me pretty?Especially since I'm an Asian and many European faces don't have the issues Asian faces have.

I will lose a lot of money due to the currency conversion...

I am thinking of Regen in Korea

Shoko/other people,what do you think?

Regen I have been to for consultation long ago.  Do they do FFS?  I guess it doesn't matter, as long as they understand what you want.

Quote from: Paula1 on May 02, 2016, 07:55:40 AM
Hi FrancisAnn,

That's awesome ... 8)

You are one of the more fortunate girls.

When I look at my pre surgery fotos before 2004, I was very attractive and passable except for the forehead which has taken 12 years to get right, thanks to poor surgery. G'rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!! The day that I was sold a second nose job in 2004 was a very bad day for me.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeDnzoyI.jpg&hash=473a230ba0c34de4b5e4c1eca910e8e21de2a59d) (http://imgur.com/eDnzoyI)

One of the patient's mother in Spain last month looked at my fotos and thought in some shots that I looked like Julia Roberts. This was taken in 1999 when I was 54.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0fsveu7.jpg&hash=ba945eb6c42845ac3f65151f248e121a329acb77) (http://imgur.com/0fsveu7)

Hugs

Paula

I am having some work done with FT in a few months. I have heard that they (and other FFS surgeons) use titanium micro-screws in the forehead. My question is- has anyone had any trouble at airports because of these screws? I pass as a female but want to have my eye orbitals reshaped and very minor brow bossing removed- but I don't want to have to explain this everytime I have go through security at an airport.
It is entirely possible to shave the forehead (the part where it meets the nose) without using screws, right? I think that is called Type II forehead? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

M.

You can go through airports with eye glasses on you head so it's hard to imagine screws setting it off.

Quote from: Meena on February 28, 2017, 02:10:59 AM
I am having some work done with FT in a few months. I have heard that they (and other FFS surgeons) use titanium micro-screws in the forehead. My question is- has anyone had any trouble at airports because of these screws? I pass as a female but want to have my eye orbitals reshaped and very minor brow bossing removed- but I don't want to have to explain this everytime I have go through security at an airport.
It is entirely possible to shave the forehead (the part where it meets the nose) without using screws, right? I think that is called Type II forehead? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

M.

I thought about that too, and to be honest, it'd be an easy explanation. I plan to say I had cranial reconstruction after a car accident, if I'm ever asked.
It doesn't need you to reveal you've had FFS, in fact I'm sure they are used to people with screws in their bones due to accident reconstruction reasons, or hip replacement operations, etc...

Quote from: Meena on February 28, 2017, 02:10:59 AMMy question is- has anyone had any trouble at airports because of these screws?
M.

Don't worry about possible trouble at airports. The button and rivets of your jeans or the zipper of your jacket  have much more metal in them than the srews used to reconstruct the forehead and they don't cause any alarm to sound.

Quote from: Meena on February 28, 2017, 02:10:59 AM
I am having some work done with FT in a few months. I have heard that they (and other FFS surgeons) use titanium micro-screws in the forehead. My question is- has anyone had any trouble at airports because of these screws?

I have a long titanium bar inside my tibia, no problems getting through airports or into banks (except one particular branch).

Note: Titanium is a non magnetic metal, so it will not set off any conventional metal detectors. We use it in the Lab to build vessels that can be put on a magnetic stirrer - pretty fantastic to have a magnet working through a metallic object. It will show up in XRays or CT though of course.

Quote from: anjaq on March 01, 2017, 04:06:17 AM
Note: Titanium is a non magnetic metal, so it will not set off any conventional metal detectors. We use it in the Lab to build vessels that can be put on a magnetic stirrer - pretty fantastic to have a magnet working through a metallic object. It will show up in XRays or CT though of course.

I don't think that's correct. Its not related to being magnetic. Anyway, there's a paper on the subject.

Prosthetic metal implants and airport metal detectors
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4165247/

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on February 27, 2017, 12:39:08 PM
Interesting. I have an appointment with them next March 9th and the vffs person (I assume it would be Alexandra) won't be available either.

Yes, Alex did my 'virtual FFS', and they e-mailed it to me today. So I only had a 2 week wait. That's not too long to wait for such a service, especially as it's free.
The pics do look amazing, how such subtle changes can switch something inside your mind when you look at an image from reading either 'male' or 'androgynous' to 'female'.
I just gotta make my mind up about whether or not to go through with it...

Quote from: V on March 01, 2017, 10:27:35 AM
Yes, Alex did my 'virtual FFS', and they e-mailed it to me today. So I only had a 2 week wait. That's not too long to wait for such a service, especially as it's free.
The pics do look amazing, how such subtle changes can switch something inside your mind when you look at an image from reading either 'male' or 'androgynous' to 'female'.
I just gotta make my mind up about whether or not to go through with it...

What pictures did they give you?

It turns out that I have already had a vffs done, as of last year. So I don't think we are going to repeat it next week because I'm not on HRT and my face hasn't changed at all—it's pointless to perform another vffs. So all I have now is what I paid for (analysis plus a single 3/4 shot), but I don't know what they provide when you go there for a consultation, and I'm curious.

Quote from: shoko on February 27, 2017, 05:29:29 PM
Regen I have been to for consultation long ago.  Do they do FFS?  I guess it doesn't matter, as long as they understand what you want.

Well,what I want is to look pretty and feminine....FT does good work but so far their pre ops have looked rather passable already...and are European..I only need Jaw and chin and nose to be honest

Shoko

What did Regen say to you?

Quote from: Meena on February 28, 2017, 02:10:59 AM
I am having some work done with FT in a few months. I have heard that they (and other FFS surgeons) use titanium micro-screws in the forehead. My question is- has anyone had any trouble at airports because of these screws? I pass as a female but want to have my eye orbitals reshaped and very minor brow bossing removed- but I don't want to have to explain this everytime I have go through security at an airport.
It is entirely possible to shave the forehead (the part where it meets the nose) without using screws, right? I think that is called Type II forehead? Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

M.

Medal detectors can detect titanium. The proof is in the form of medal detectors used to hunt treasure. They function differently depending the type of metal being detected. Iron depends on the magnetic properties of the metal and all other metals use eddy currents for detection. This is how a treasure detector can tell what type of metal was found. As for the airport detectors, the sensitivity is adjustable because we can carry a fair amount of metal internally and in our clothing. The detectors are adjusted to detect a dangerous amount of metal like a knife or a gun but they will allow small amounts like watches, glasses and most internal metal to pass without issues.

Quote from: Isla24Irisviel on March 01, 2017, 03:11:13 PM
Shoko

What did Regen say to you?

Back then it wasn't for FFS, and they wanted to insert a silicone implant.  Now I think if you ask for FFS it might be different

The titanium screws are a non issue at airports and in general. I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on March 01, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
What pictures did they give you?

It turns out that I have already had a vffs done, as of last year. So I don't think we are going to repeat it next week because I'm not on HRT and my face hasn't changed at all—it's pointless to perform another vffs. So all I have now is what I paid for (analysis plus a single 3/4 shot), but I don't know what they provide when you go there for a consultation, and I'm curious.

They took face-forward, 3/4 (looking to the side) and full side-profile photos.
I got a before and after high quality image for all 3 views.
They do a lot for you if you go and see them in Marbella, and all of it is free of charge.
As well as the detailed photos, they took 3D images (with a special camera), and also a full cranial CT scan.
They go through the CT scan results in detail with you during the consultation with the surgeons.
They gave me a pack (both printed and digitally) with the photos and CT scan images included.
It was really really good, and 100% worthwhile me taking the time to travel there.
All I paid for was my flights to/from Malaga (with a budget airline), and because I didn't want to rush, I stayed in Malaga overnight after the consultation and flew home the next day. So there was the hotel cost too, and of course my meals.
As I went in the 'off season', the flights and hotel were cheap, and the train from my hotel in Malaga to the airport was only 3 Euros. Plus the weather wasn't too hot, just a nice pleasant 20 degrees C.
Facial team paid for the taxi from Malaga airport to their location at HC Hospital in Marbella (the hospital itself was really nice, more like a posh hotel than a hospital), and also they paid for the taxi back to my hotel in Malaga. The taxi journey was an hour, and would have cost 80 Euros each way.
No high-pressure, no sales pitch, just an open and honest discussion about what they thought I needed, and what I though I needed, which luckily co-incided with each other.
If you can be flexible with your visit date, and book well in advance, then they can make sure to give you a good deal of their time, and that you can see the right surgeons for your intended procedures.

I'm not trying to suggest they are better than any other FFS provider, but I went with an open mind and came away impressed. And I've previously paid big bucks for consultations with surgeons in Harley St in London, and got a much worse experience those times.

Thats interesting - I had VFFS done after I had a consultation with Facialteam, but Alexandra who did it was still charging me her usual price for it if I want to have copies - she only did a quick version on the fly during the sonsultation, which was something that, after hearing from the surgeon that I do not need FFS at all, kind of let me doubt that assessment as I just really felt something when I saw the comparison being flipped back and forth, so I did pay eventually to get properly done VFFS photos sent to me later.

So now they will sponsor the VFFS photos for you if you go to Marbelle for a consultation? (I had the consultation in Germany)

Quote from: anjaq on March 02, 2017, 08:47:34 AM
Thats interesting - I had VFFS done after I had a consultation with Facialteam, but Alexandra who did it was still charging me her usual price for it if I want to have copies - she only did a quick version on the fly during the sonsultation, which was something that, after hearing from the surgeon that I do not need FFS at all, kind of let me doubt that assessment as I just really felt something when I saw the comparison being flipped back and forth, so I did pay eventually to get properly done VFFS photos sent to me later.

So now they will sponsor the VFFS photos for you if you go to Marbelle for a consultation? (I had the consultation in Germany)

I think that you have to pay for their FFS if you go to one of their "roadshows" (for want of a better term) that they do at locations in different cities around the world. I assume it costs a fair bit to continually arrange these events, so I guess they are trying to recoup some of the costs?
Whereas if you take the time to actually visit them at their own premises, you get the benefit of their full consultation services for free, because they know that you are already paying a fair bit in flight costs, time off work, and hotel costs. If you also had to pay their costs in Marbella as well, that would make it very expensive indeed, and would most likely put off a lot of prospective clients.

The above is just conjecture and my own opinion/guess. If you want an actual answer I guess you should ask them directly.

In all fairness, I didn't go and see them in Marbella for VFFS!
It was because for such a big decision, you need as much information as possible to help you make the best choice. I think this is even more important for FFS than SRS, because it's your face, and everyone will see it.
I wanted to get a feeling for what they are about, the whole package, and the only way to do that is through a personal visit, I feel. They do state that you will get a more thorough consultation if you visit them in Marbella than at one of their 'roadshow' events.
I'm sure that in the grand scheme of things, a VFFS session doesn't cost as much compared to a full cranial CT scan? And as I got the CT scan for free, I felt that was of much more use, as it's possible to see your skull in detail, and actually see if anything needs to be done to the bone itself.
If I were to rate each part of my visit in importance in helping me to make a decision, it would go as follows:

1) Consultation face to face with the surgeons, (where they refer to your CT scan and photos, and go through things with you).
2) Cranial CT scan.
3) Detailed photos taken for use during the consultation.
4) The VFFS results.
5) Actually seeing the hospital and the recovery 'house' (Jenny's nest), and meeting the care team.

All of the above are useful and important, but that was what I felt I got the most out of while I was there.

If you met with them and they said that you don't need FFS, then congratulations, you are one lucky person, and have just saved yourself a lot of time, money and discomfort.
Alas, whilst I too could live without FFS, I really feel that it will help me a lot with my own self-esteem and confidence.
We're all different at the end of the day.

Quote from: V on March 02, 2017, 04:51:00 AM
I got a before and after high quality image for all 3 views.

Thanks for your review. I think I will ask for an after picture for front and side, since I didn't get them when I did the vffs (ok I didn't pay for them) but they are giving them away for free if you go to Marbella.

I live near Madrid and it's only a 6 hour drive, no flights, no hotels :) My main motivation for visiting them is to try and put them in contact with my orthodoncist so I can get a joint treatment for overbite, and correct it via a) surgery, b) braces or c) both. I'm definitely doing surgery anyway but if the overbite can be corrected at the same time, the more bang I get for the buck.

Quote from: V on March 02, 2017, 09:42:45 AM
I'm sure that in the grand scheme of things, a VFFS session doesn't cost as much compared to a full cranial CT scan? And as I got the CT scan for free, I felt that was of much more use, as it's possible to see your skull in detail, and actually see if anything needs to be done to the bone itself.

True - the VFFS costs officially around 50 EU per picture - so usually something like 150 EU in total. I guess if you go to Marbella they will pay Alexandra for it, if you visit them on the road, it is up to you to arrange VFFS payments.
A CT scan is neat. I brought CT pictures with me for the consultation, but they did not look at them, probably they need to have them done in a special way - the one I had was only showing a part as it was done for a sinus issue.

QuoteIf you met with them and they said that you don't need FFS, then congratulations, you are one lucky person, and have just saved yourself a lot of time, money and discomfort.
Alas, whilst I too could live without FFS, I really feel that it will help me a lot with my own self-esteem and confidence.

Well I am like that , too. Basically Dr Capitan said I do not need FFS, but I assume it was only meant really in terms of "need" - as in I can live without it, I probably "pass" well in almost all situations, and in others I may look a bit odd but as long as there are no other reasons to doubt it willl work ok. I am told by others here that my face is androgynous, which is probably one of the best things one can hope for given the history of testosterone puberty. I guess it is extremely rare to have a feminine face after that - if one had that, one would have been gendered that way even before transitioning. So Alexandra sort of disagreed with Dr Capitan after doing the VFFS on the fly and said that the changes that are possible still would make a positive difference - this was showing the most when she flipped the photos back and forth. So this is why I think I will go for it anyways, even if it is not strictly a "need".

Quote from: anjaq on March 03, 2017, 05:52:09 AM
True - the VFFS costs officially around 50 EU per picture - so usually something like 150 EU in total. I guess if you go to Marbella they will pay Alexandra for it, if you visit them on the road, it is up to you to arrange VFFS payments.
A CT scan is neat. I brought CT pictures with me for the consultation, but they did not look at them, probably they need to have them done in a special way - the one I had was only showing a part as it was done for a sinus issue.
Well I am like that , too. Basically Dr Capitan said I do not need FFS, but I assume it was only meant really in terms of "need" - as in I can live without it, I probably "pass" well in almost all situations, and in others I may look a bit odd but as long as there are no other reasons to doubt it willl work ok. I am told by others here that my face is androgynous, which is probably one of the best things one can hope for given the history of testosterone puberty. I guess it is extremely rare to have a feminine face after that - if one had that, one would have been gendered that way even before transitioning. So Alexandra sort of disagreed with Dr Capitan after doing the VFFS on the fly and said that the changes that are possible still would make a positive difference - this was showing the most when she flipped the photos back and forth. So this is why I think I will go for it anyways, even if it is not strictly a "need".

The CT scan that Facial Team do in Marbella is very comprehensive. And they give you a whole suite of images from it (both on paper and digitally) for you to take away. I got CT images of:
Front, 3/4, side profile (all these looking straight ahead, and looking up), plus close-up angled views of my jaw, chin, and sinus areas. I also got sectional views of the skull/jaw at various different angles and cuts, onto which they had added 'lines' showing which parts of the bone fall inside and outside the usual female bone shape.
I can't stress enough how comprehenisve these are, and how they show (almost brutally) what areas your actual bone could benefit from shaping/contouring.
I saw two surgeons whilst I was there, Dr. Simon, and another surgeon whose name escapes me (I'm really bad with names). Dr. Simon had that gentle patient-oriented manner that really put me at ease. He said that I'm actually very lucky with my original bone structure, and how much the female hormones have changed the tissue of my face (16 years of HRT have obviously helped me!). He said that my chin, jawline and nose are all fine as they are, and I already had this opinion in my mind, as I have my mother's nose and chin, so didn't really want them changed. It's my brow ridge, Adam's Apple and receded hairline which can give me away, and that's exactly what Dr. Simon mentioned. He also spotted straight away that I had had hair transplants on my temples, and I had not previously mentioned this to him or anyone at FT. The hair transplants were done back in 2006 by DHI in Greece.
To be honest, like you, I don't "need" FFS. I live 'in stealth' and pass almost all of the time. But that does take a lot of work, and also avoiding certain situations that might give me away. For instance I wear scarves, chokers, and other garments that cover up my neck to hide my Adam's Apple, and I try to avoid being outside in windy or wet weather, and if I have to got out, I'll often wear hats or hairbands to hide the hair recession. Obviously I can't wear my hair up or tied back, I'm stuck with the same centre parting style, and my cis-female friends have commented and asked why I never change my hair style ever, and I just laugh it off... It's these compromises that can really grind me down and are driving me to look at FFS to try and help me live a freer and more natural life, with less worry about those situations that I dread 'outing' me.

I'm curious though, if Dr. Capitan said you didn't 'need' FFS, would he still carry out such procedure on you if you insisted?

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on March 02, 2017, 01:23:28 PM
Thanks for your review. I think I will ask for an after picture for front and side, since I didn't get them when I did the vffs (ok I didn't pay for them) but they are giving them away for free if you go to Marbella.

I live near Madrid and it's only a 6 hour drive, no flights, no hotels :) My main motivation for visiting them is to try and put them in contact with my orthodoncist so I can get a joint treatment for overbite, and correct it via a) surgery, b) braces or c) both. I'm definitely doing surgery anyway but if the overbite can be corrected at the same time, the more bang I get for the buck.

It's lucky that you already live in Spain, so they would be a good choice for you to go and see. I live in the UK, and it seems that for FFS or SRS/GCS, the better options are always abroad :(
I hope they can help you, and are also able to help with the jaw issue as well. Good luck.

Quote from: V on March 03, 2017, 06:27:17 AM
I can't stress enough how comprehenisve these are, and how they show (almost brutally) what areas your actual bone could benefit from shaping/contouring.

Ok, I can imagine this helps - normally all is covered with skin and fat and muscles and one can hardly say if it would maybe be enough to change soft tissues or more is needed.

Quote
To be honest, like you, I don't "need" FFS. I live 'in stealth' and pass almost all of the time. But that does take a lot of work, and also avoiding certain situations that might give me away. For instance I wear scarves, chokers, and other garments that cover up my neck to hide my Adam's Apple, and I try to avoid being outside in windy or wet weather, and if I have to got out, I'll often wear hats or hairbands to hide the hair recession.

Ok, that sounds not fun, no. I luckily have no adams apple, so that is not the issue. I think the thing I am worried about most is having the hair back from wind or water, light coming from directl above making a shadow over my eyes and some hairstyles or clothes like scarfs that make my chin stick out more.

QuoteI'm curious though, if Dr. Capitan said you didn't 'need' FFS, would he still carry out such procedure on you if you insisted?

Sure. Just because I do not need it to have a chance at passing, it still is something that I can benefit from, also in his opinion. The face is androgynous so it would be possible to feminize it if I want to. Facialteam also feminizes cis male or cis female faces if they desire this. They seem not to need to have some sort of double checked gatekeepered trans diagnosis to treat you

Quote from: anjaq on March 03, 2017, 05:03:56 PM
Ok, I can imagine this helps - normally all is covered with skin and fat and muscles and one can hardly say if it would maybe be enough to change soft tissues or more is needed.
Ok, that sounds not fun, no. I luckily have no adams apple, so that is not the issue. I think the thing I am worried about most is having the hair back from wind or water, light coming from directl above making a shadow over my eyes and some hairstyles or clothes like scarfs that make my chin stick out more.
Sure. Just because I do not need it to have a chance at passing, it still is something that I can benefit from, also in his opinion. The face is androgynous so it would be possible to feminize it if I want to. Facialteam also feminizes cis male or cis female faces if they desire this. They seem not to need to have some sort of double checked gatekeepered trans diagnosis to treat you

The CT scan was very revealing where my jawline was concerned. The actual bone shape was feminine enough, and the soft tissue was quite thick in the jaw area on me, so definitely no jaw/chin work needed.
I could also see in detail the brow bossing on the bone, so I know that removing this will definitely help.

You're lucky with your Adam's Apple, mine definitely needs taking back. I hear you about the wind and water affecting the hairline, it's a real pain isn't it!
My brow bossing can look almost non-existant if my face is lit and viewed face-on, but if the light is from above then the shadow is easily visible. I always look at women's faces to see if they have any masculine traits, and whilst I do see women with prominent chins or jaws, or larger noses, or receded hairlines, I've not seen any women with prominent brow bossing. I'm sure it's one of those subtle tells that people subconsciously pick up on when automatically gendering a face.

I too like Facial Team's open and holistic approach to patient care and satisfaction. If they feel they can help you, I'm sure they would, without any gatekeeping nonsense, we are adults after all.

I went to London recently to look at hair transplants, as a partial alternative to going to Facial Team, and I came away feeling more inclined to go to FT.

Quote from: V on March 05, 2017, 04:48:39 PM
The CT scan was very revealing where my jawline was concerned. The actual bone shape was feminine enough, and the soft tissue was quite thick in the jaw area on me, so definitely no jaw/chin work needed.
I could also see in detail the brow bossing on the bone, so I know that removing this will definitely help.

Thats interesting. I get the impression this is almost vital to do before the surgery, but when one books FFS with them and is there and gets the scan, the surgery is already planned, so its too late then to look at the scans and make a decision ...

I think my jaw is ok - its probably more fat that is forming "jowls" and making it look less good. I am totally not sure about the chin though - something needs to change there but I am not sure how much of the issue is bone structure or something else - I consider even going to another FT consultation and specificall ask for that - or maybe get that done online if that is making them less trouble

The brow bossing is palpable through the skin, but it is quite subtle. I also do see it when the light is coming from above - I hate that.

QuoteI always look at women's faces to see if they have any masculine traits, and whilst I do see women with prominent chins or jaws, or larger noses, or receded hairlines, I've not seen any women with prominent brow bossing. I'm sure it's one of those subtle tells that people subconsciously pick up on when automatically gendering a face.

I also do that, but in fact I have seen quit ea few women with significant brow bossing. Mostly eastern or southeastern European origin. I think what makes my face different from most though is really not so much the brow bossing but the part they call glabella - it is sticking out too much - making my eyes look deep set and hidden even if there is no real ridges at the brows. But I have seen women with that feature as well, so basically all my facial features do occur in other women as well as they do with me, just apparently they are usually not coming all together or they are compensated by something else. Size of the head, delicateness of the facial bones overall... So its androgynous or slightly masculine features that, if a woman has only one or two of them in an otherwise feminine face, do not hurt or even make it more interesting, but at least in my eyes, I am disturbed to have several of them and I already seem to look big. Its weird how perception works - I am always judged to be at least 1m80 tall. If I tell people I am actually 1m72 they say "no way, then you woul dbe the same size as me, but you ar emuch taller!" - a couple of times I literally made them stand right next to me then, to show that indeed we are the same size. I have no clue why that is, but maybe the face is similar - some clues that are not perceived consciously and are not obectively masculine are perceived subconsciously as off...

Quote from: anjaq on March 07, 2017, 07:37:14 AM
Thats interesting. I get the impression this is almost vital to do before the surgery, but when one books FFS with them and is there and gets the scan, the surgery is already planned, so its too late then to look at the scans and make a decision ...

I think my jaw is ok - its probably more fat that is forming "jowls" and making it look less good. I am totally not sure about the chin though - something needs to change there but I am not sure how much of the issue is bone structure or something else - I consider even going to another FT consultation and specificall ask for that - or maybe get that done online if that is making them less trouble

The brow bossing is palpable through the skin, but it is quite subtle. I also do see it when the light is coming from above - I hate that.

I also do that, but in fact I have seen quit ea few women with significant brow bossing. Mostly eastern or southeastern European origin. I think what makes my face different from most though is really not so much the brow bossing but the part they call glabella - it is sticking out too much - making my eyes look deep set and hidden even if there is no real ridges at the brows. But I have seen women with that feature as well, so basically all my facial features do occur in other women as well as they do with me, just apparently they are usually not coming all together or they are compensated by something else. Size of the head, delicateness of the facial bones overall... So its androgynous or slightly masculine features that, if a woman has only one or two of them in an otherwise feminine face, do not hurt or even make it more interesting, but at least in my eyes, I am disturbed to have several of them and I already seem to look big. Its weird how perception works - I am always judged to be at least 1m80 tall. If I tell people I am actually 1m72 they say "no way, then you woul dbe the same size as me, but you ar emuch taller!" - a couple of times I literally made them stand right next to me then, to show that indeed we are the same size. I have no clue why that is, but maybe the face is similar - some clues that are not perceived consciously and are not obectively masculine are perceived subconsciously as off...

Yes, it is vital to do the scan before considering any surgery, but you are wrong that you need to book the surgery with them beforehand to get the scan done.
I merely expressed an interest in FFS and requested a consultation with FT at their Marbella premises. No commitment to undertake actual surgery was requested or given at any time.
My trip was purely a fact-finding mission, to help me make a decision regarding any FFS I might decide to undergo, at a future date.
You could simply do the same as I did, in order to get the detailed scan and consultation.
As I said earlier, all you have to pay for is your flights, and any hotel and meal costs you might incur. No money was paid from me to FT at any time, nor did I feel under obligation to have surgery with FT. There was no pressure sales whatsoever.
I think that, even if you had booked and paid for surgery with them beforehand, as part of the pre-surgery prep, they would take detailed scans if they hadn't already done so, and at that point discuss with you the final actual surgery that they recommended, and even at that point you would be able to change/amend or even cancel things, even if you did end up losing any monies you had paid to reserve your surgery date. Most companies charge late cancellation fees, so I don't see this as an issue, just business.

A detailed scan (not necessarily done at FT) would show up whether you do in fact need bone-related 'chin work' or if it is just fat distribution. In my case it's fat distribution, no bone work is needed or would indeed be beneficial. Both FT and I agreed on this.

As you say, lighting can make or break it where brow bossing is concerned. I have photos where it looks like I have none at all, and others where it looks almost neanderthal-like in prominence. It all depends on the lighting at the time. But, psychologically I know it's there, and that's the issue for me.

I fully believe you if you say you've seen female faces with brow bossing. But I think you've nailed it when you say it's the combination of facial features that creates the overall perception of gender from others. That's why it's a skill to be able to subtly change them to move from masculine-androgynous-feminine.
With my face, my chin, jaw, nose, and cheeks were all quite androgynous to begin with. Genetically, my facial features were not strongly masculine, and I am of slender build and bone structure. Couple this with the effect of 16 years of HRT, plus having SRS 13 years ago, and the changes to my facial features solely through soft tissue changes/fat redistribution have helped in these already androgynous areas. In particular, looking at old photos of my face, my cheekbones and cheek profile have taken on a very feminine appearance. I'm very lucky, I know.
But, add in a prominent Adam's Apple, definite masculine receded hairline shape, and brow bossing, and you've got enough to create some questions and raise suspicions in at least some people. I have certainly never seen a cis-female face with those three features together. Just one of them on their own might not look too out of place, if accompanied by a full suite other of feminine facial features, but as you say, it's all about the subtleties.

I am 1m70cm in height, but I often feel that I tower over most women, or look disproportionately 'bigger' in the 'wrong' areas. I can only attribute this to the fact that I do have broad shoulders, narrow hips (of course, due to my male skeleton), and a relatively larger head than a female of the same height. Add to this the fact that women's shoulders do seem to have more of a slope to them, from the neck down to the arm, whereas my shoulders are much more flat and level, adding to the perception of broadness. There's nothing I can do about this, other than dress with styles that hide or at least don't accentuate my shoulder shape and width.
You can't change change every masculine feature you have to become feminine, but you can hopefully 'do enough' with what you can change, to tip the overall impression away from masculine as much as possible. Of course genetics/build and to some extent race, can help or hinder you in this endeavour.
For me, as far as height perception is concerned, if I'm in a group of just women, then I am taller than most of them, and often receive comments on how tall I am. This will make me feel self-conscious, and if unchecked can snowball into me thinking I've been 'made' and lose all confidence, at which point I'm just drawing attention to myself for all the wrong reasons. At these moments, I try to think of that line from 'The Penguins of Madagascar' film: "Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave". And this usually relaxes me enough so I don't appear overly anxious or uncomfortable.
Conversely, when I'm in a group of just men, I am almost always the shortest or one of the shortest there. And so I'm much more likely to be perceived as being 'small', which fits in comfortably with the female appearance I'm presenting. And I've never received comments from a group of guys about how tall I am, because subjectively, compared to them, I'm not.
TL:DR, hanging around with folks taller than I am makes me feel better about myself  :D

Quote from: V on March 07, 2017, 05:17:00 PM
Yes, it is vital to do the scan before considering any surgery, but you are wrong that you need to book the surgery with them beforehand to get the scan done.
I merely expressed an interest in FFS and requested a consultation with FT at their Marbella premises. No commitment to undertake actual surgery was requested or given at any time.

Oh I am sure this would be possible, but its not a short trip to fly to Marbella and stay for a night or two. I was at a consultation in Germany before and considered going to another one, but already feel stupid because if I do I would take away the date from someone who probably needs this more than me.

QuoteA detailed scan (not necessarily done at FT) would show up whether you do in fact need bone-related 'chin work' or if it is just fat distribution. In my case it's fat distribution, no bone work is needed or would indeed be beneficial. Both FT and I agreed on this.

I gues smaybe it makes sense to do that trip before fixing a surgery date then. Sigh - more expenses...
Would they also do non-bone related work on the chin to improve it?

QuoteAs you say, lighting can make or break it where brow bossing is concerned. I have photos where it looks like I have none at all, and others where it looks almost neanderthal-like in prominence. It all depends on the lighting at the time. But, psychologically I know it's there, and that's the issue for me.

LOL - Ok, its not THAT bad for me - I never see a Neanderthal there, just a boyish face. Usually when the light is bad or I am sad or tired. This lets my eyebows go lower - apparently I subconsciously lift them up since forever, which got me horizontal lines on the forehead already.

QuoteWith my face, my chin, jaw, nose, and cheeks were all quite androgynous to begin with. Genetically, my facial features were not strongly masculine, and I am of slender build and bone structure. Couple this with the effect of 16 years of HRT, plus having SRS 13 years ago, and the changes to my facial features solely through soft tissue changes/fat redistribution have helped in these already androgynous areas. In particular, looking at old photos of my face, my cheekbones and cheek profile have taken on a very feminine appearance. I'm very lucky, I know.
But, add in a prominent Adam's Apple, definite masculine receded hairline shape, and brow bossing, and you've got enough to create some questions and raise suspicions in at least some people.

Yes, that sounds familiar except that sadly I am not slender. I am more "stout" - I have quite a large ribcage and shoulders, but also hips, luckily - so I do have somewhat of a hourglass shape, slightly taller at the top, but the hourglass is a bit bulky overall... the profile picture currently is an old one from me pretransition - shows a bit the shape of the body.

QuoteFor me, as far as height perception is concerned, if I'm in a group of just women, then I am taller than most of them, and often receive comments on how tall I am. This will make me feel self-conscious, and if unchecked can snowball into me thinking I've been 'made' and lose all confidence, at which point I'm just drawing attention to myself for all the wrong reasons.

Yes. If people comment that I am at least 1m80 tall, I somehow also assume that maybe they figured out i am trans and then think from that on, I have to be taller...? Its stupid.

Quote from: anjaq on March 08, 2017, 04:00:06 PM
Oh I am sure this would be possible, but its not a short trip to fly to Marbella and stay for a night or two. I was at a consultation in Germany before and considered going to another one, but already feel stupid because if I do I would take away the date from someone who probably needs this more than me.

I guess maybe it makes sense to do that trip before fixing a surgery date then. Sigh - more expenses...
Would they also do non-bone related work on the chin to improve it?

LOL - Ok, its not THAT bad for me - I never see a Neanderthal there, just a boyish face. Usually when the light is bad or I am sad or tired. This lets my eyebows go lower - apparently I subconsciously lift them up since forever, which got me horizontal lines on the forehead already.

Yes, that sounds familiar except that sadly I am not slender. I am more "stout" - I have quite a large ribcage and shoulders, but also hips, luckily - so I do have somewhat of a hourglass shape, slightly taller at the top, but the hourglass is a bit bulky overall... the profile picture currently is an old one from me pretransition - shows a bit the shape of the body.

Yes. If people comment that I am at least 1m80 tall, I somehow also assume that maybe they figured out i am trans and then think from that on, I have to be taller...? Its stupid.

I understand that Spain is not near for everyone, just as the US is not near for me.
Having travelled to the other side of the globe (Thailand) for SRS, I really don't want to travel too far for surgery ever again, so Europe is fine from the UK, but any further and I baulk at the thought. Especially if you need remedial or follow-up work/treatment.
I understand you not wanting to hog appointments, but really, you need to do as much research and meetings as necessary to find where you are comfortable at.

I'm not trying to act as a proponent of FT in particular, you can go anywhere for a second opinion.  :)
I have no idea about non-bone-related procedures, you'd have to ask them.

My eyebrows and upper eyelids droop terribly, making my eyes seem even more inset. Plus If I apply eyeliner or eyeshadow to the upper eyelid, because most of the lid is hidden under skin folds, the makeup all rubs away into creases during the day and looks terrible. Removing the heavy brow bossing using the coronal approach that FT suggests would open up my eyes a bit, and lift the eyebrows a bit as well. I don't want much, and certainly not a 'facelift', but I do need some subtle help in this area.

There's nothing wrong with 'stout but shapely', I see plenty of women like that. If you have hips and an hourglass shape, then you are very lucky!
I have no real hips to speak of, so I have to do a feminising workout to get my waist as narrow as possible, to accentuate what little hips I do have. I wrote about this in another post on here, under 'feminising workouts'. After 6 months of doing this, my measurements were: Underbust (ribcage) 32", waist 27", hips 36". Unfortunately my shoulders are wider than my hips, which can create a bit of a 'T'-shaped male profile, so I try to hide this with choice of clothing.

I know what you mean about irrational fears of thinking you've been 'outed'. I have tripped myself up a few times through thinking that someone had 'made' me, only for things to later transpire that they had not. I can be my worst enemy at times  ::)

Quote from: V on March 09, 2017, 09:33:50 AM
I understand that Spain is not near for everyone, just as the US is not near for me.
Having travelled to the other side of the globe (Thailand) for SRS, I really don't want to travel too far for surgery ever again, so Europe is fine from the UK, but any further and I baulk at the thought. Especially if you need remedial or follow-up work/treatment.
I understand you not wanting to hog appointments, but really, you need to do as much research and meetings as necessary to find where you are comfortable at.

Well Spain is not THAT far from Germany - still, its probably about 250 EU for the flight plus 100 for hotel. I know, peanuts compared to the FFS costs, but not sure it makes sense or gives any real benefit when most decide without CT scan and all that. I have been undecisive about FFS for almost 4 years now and bugging people about it, asking uncomfortable questions, so I am not sure I want to stretch this further and towards the professionals. Its up to me now, I need to decide what I want and then if I do that, I can book this and the details of it can probably be discussed at that point then...

QuoteThere's nothing wrong with 'stout but shapely', I see plenty of women like that. If you have hips and an hourglass shape, then you are very lucky!
I have no real hips to speak of, so I have to do a feminising workout to get my waist as narrow as possible, to accentuate what little hips I do have. I wrote about this in another post on here, under 'feminising workouts'. After 6 months of doing this, my measurements were: Underbust (ribcage) 32", waist 27", hips 36". Unfortunately my shoulders are wider than my hips, which can create a bit of a 'T'-shaped male profile, so I try to hide this with choice of clothing.

My measurements are much larger - lol - its 88cm underbust, about 80 waist and 106 at the hips. So while I have wide shoulders, the hips are also not slim. If I hold a thread to the shoulders, it touches my hips almost exactly, I was told this means it is a hourglass shape, except I should get a bit better waistline to make it shapely, sadly the large ribcage prevents this and I am not going for rib removal surgery...

Quote from: anjaq on March 11, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
not sure it makes sense or gives any real benefit when most decide without CT scan and all that.

Well I'm sure other surgeons would appreciate having the opportunity to take a look to the CT scan you get at the FT consultation in order to have a better view of the work that you'd need.

I was with FT on Thursday. I had the CT and a set of 3D pictures taken and then we went over my needs. If you had already had a vffs with Alexandra I recommend not telling them because if you do they will totally skip it. They recommended some subtle changes here and there, nothing aggressive. They were open to be in contact with my orthodoncist in order to tackle the overbite.

Since I haven't started HRT (I believe I'll start in April/May) the quote is going to expire (6 months) so I'll have to review it at some point later this year or early 2018 with a view to undergo FFS around that summer/autumn. In the meanwhile I can show the CT to other surgeons I may have consultations with.

Well, too late then, I did the VFFS with Alexandra AT the Facialteam consultation...

So far all the consultations more or less matched. Some recommended more, some less, almost always it was said my face is already mostly female and I should not have problems with "passing" as it is, so all surgeries are optional. The on presisng most for surgeries was Dr di Maggio, saying there would be significant improvements to be made. The one most conservative was PAI, who only wanted to shave a bit of the chin and orbitals. Facialteam and Dr Bart were in the middle - saying I can benefit from the "big five" but it is more subtle because not much has to be changed. Biggest change would be forehead and hairline. None of them took a 3D scan of the bones though, Facialteam and Dr Bart had the advantage of "touching" and thus at least feeling where the bones are.

So far, I liked Facialtema the best, but the VFFS they did with Alexandra did not give me a satisfying chin - so I am not sure if what I want is possible for them (or at all). I was also told they are not so great at rhinoplasty. Maybe I should reconsider di Maggio, although I know he does usually a hairline incision and hairline lowering, which I do not favour so much, because of the visible scare and the frequent complication of loss of sensitivity in the hairline region and behind that line. I am also not sure if he really would do more visible , but still natural looking modifications than Facialteam. I jusge Facialteam to be a bit more conservative, maybe rather doing too little than too much in an effort to always give natural results. I have seen some photos where I do literelly see no change in some parts of the face that they have worked on, which puzzles me a bit - usually this is with patients who already were feminine before. So I wonder if that was worth it then for those patients - very very subtle changes . But with other surgeons I sometimes see that drastic changes are possible but can look "odd" or "done", so that is the opposite fear I would have.

Quote from: anjaq on March 11, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
Well Spain is not THAT far from Germany - still, its probably about 250 EU for the flight plus 100 for hotel. I know, peanuts compared to the FFS costs, but not sure it makes sense or gives any real benefit when most decide without CT scan and all that. I have been undecisive about FFS for almost 4 years now and bugging people about it, asking uncomfortable questions, so I am not sure I want to stretch this further and towards the professionals. Its up to me now, I need to decide what I want and then if I do that, I can book this and the details of it can probably be discussed at that point then...
My measurements are much larger - lol - its 88cm underbust, about 80 waist and 106 at the hips. So while I have wide shoulders, the hips are also not slim. If I hold a thread to the shoulders, it touches my hips almost exactly, I was told this means it is a hourglass shape, except I should get a bit better waistline to make it shapely, sadly the large ribcage prevents this and I am not going for rib removal surgery...

I was lucky in that I used a budget airline (Monarch) to fly to Malaga. It cost me £100 total.
It seems you have seen many different FFS surgeons!
I can appreciate it taking you years of research.
I certainly couldn't decide upon FFS without getting scans and meeting face-to-face. I don't 'do' Skype and suchlike.
But as I said earlier, you need to do whatever you have to, to make the best decision you can for yourself. Even if you eventually decide to not have FFS, that too is a valid decision.

You might have bigger measurements, but they are still in a decent proportion to each other to give you a feminine figure. Especially your hips.
I am borderline underweight, so I daren't lose any more weight. But regardless of that, I can't do much about the shape of my skeleton. My ribcage doesn't help me either, as it isn't tapered downwards, but is quite 'straight'. So it ends abruptly and then my waist goes in abruptly too. It doesn't look great as there are no flowing curves from torso to waist to hips, rather 'jumps' from one to the next. Naked I don't look great, but with the right clothes it looks acceptable and not very masculine. I didn't know there was such a thing as rib removal surgery? Does that give you a better waist?

Quote from: anjaq on March 12, 2017, 05:47:32 AM
Well, too late then, I did the VFFS with Alexandra AT the Facialteam consultation...

So far all the consultations more or less matched. Some recommended more, some less, almost always it was said my face is already mostly female and I should not have problems with "passing" as it is, so all surgeries are optional. The on presisng most for surgeries was Dr di Maggio, saying there would be significant improvements to be made. The one most conservative was PAI, who only wanted to shave a bit of the chin and orbitals. Facialteam and Dr Bart were in the middle - saying I can benefit from the "big five" but it is more subtle because not much has to be changed. Biggest change would be forehead and hairline. None of them took a 3D scan of the bones though, Facialteam and Dr Bart had the advantage of "touching" and thus at least feeling where the bones are.

So far, I liked Facialtema the best, but the VFFS they did with Alexandra did not give me a satisfying chin - so I am not sure if what I want is possible for them (or at all). I was also told they are not so great at rhinoplasty. Maybe I should reconsider di Maggio, although I know he does usually a hairline incision and hairline lowering, which I do not favour so much, because of the visible scare and the frequent complication of loss of sensitivity in the hairline region and behind that line. I am also not sure if he really would do more visible , but still natural looking modifications than Facialteam. I jusge Facialteam to be a bit more conservative, maybe rather doing too little than too much in an effort to always give natural results. I have seen some photos where I do literelly see no change in some parts of the face that they have worked on, which puzzles me a bit - usually this is with patients who already were feminine before. So I wonder if that was worth it then for those patients - very very subtle changes . But with other surgeons I sometimes see that drastic changes are possible but can look "odd" or "done", so that is the opposite fear I would have.

I guess it's good that most of the surgeons you saw came to a broad agreement about what might help you.
I'd be wary about anyone who was suggesting a lot of surgery, if you already pass well, and think your face is generally feminine already.
Facial Team used the 'touching' technique on me as well. I found it strangely reassuring. I am definitely after very subtle changes only, I don't want to draw attention to myself, or make it obvious that something significant has changed. I went into the whole FFS thing, thinking that I only wanted forehead, hairline and tracheal shave, and that's exactly what FT suggested. Just to 'test' them, I suggested some jaw work, and they were quite adamant I didn't need it, which I thought reflected well on them.
I guess the 'big five' are forehead, orbitals, nose, chin and jaw?
I am sure that there are some very subtle changes that could be made to my nose, chin and jaw, but I also know that they would be so subtle as to raise the question is it worth it? To me, the cost, discomfort and risk of extra (possibly 'unnecessary') surgeries are not worth the slight improvement they may bring. As long as there aren't enough 'big pointers' in my face towards masculine traits, I can live with the small subtle ones that may be present, because the overall impression of the whole package will be feminine enough.

I am very lucky that I don't 'need' any rhinoplasty, because of all the plastic surgery 'changes' that I see women doing (both cis and trans) it's the nose, and lips, that can look the most unnatural, to me. Out of all the changes I could make to my face, I'd be the most afraid to change the nose and lips.
I too, do not want any hairline scar, as the results I've seen seem to take a long time to heal, and it's really very difficult to hide, at least initially, that you've had that kind of surgery. For someone living 'in stealth', it's way to much of a risk. And I worry that the scar may never be fully hidden, and I'd go from trying to hide a male-pattern hairline, to trying to hide a hairline scar instead. Just exchanging one problem for another, and that's not appealing to me.

As I said, I am after subtle changes only, nothing drastic, because apart from drawing attention to yourself and saying "look! I've had surgery on my face", there is always the risk that too many large changes are made which can take upwards of 2 years to fully heal, and can result in an 'over done' look, as you say. In my mind, "too subtle" is a better bad result than "too drastic". But we are all different, and have different ideas, and the above are just my own views.
What I got back from Alex looks good, and is just the subtle changes that FT suggested in the first place. If anything, the virtual FFS possibly shows too large a change, and I think the actual result, especially in the hairline area, will be more subtle, and that isn't a bad thing in my eyes.

Spotting subtle changes in 'before and after' photos can be difficult if the two sets of photos are not taken in very similar lighting and positions.

Quote from: V on March 13, 2017, 08:10:46 AM
I was lucky in that I used a budget airline (Monarch) to fly to Malaga. It cost me £100 total.
...
But as I said earlier, you need to do whatever you have to, to make the best decision you can for yourself. Even if you eventually decide to not have FFS, that too is a valid decision.

That sounds like a reasonable expense.

Well, I really wanted to consider not getting anything done, but I cannot get it out of my head for good and I know it will keep popping up until I do something :( :(

QuoteYou might have bigger measurements, but they are still in a decent proportion to each other to give you a feminine figure. Especially your hips.
I am borderline underweight, so I daren't lose any more weight. But regardless of that, I can't do much about the shape of my skeleton. My ribcage doesn't help me either, as it isn't tapered downwards, but is quite 'straight'. So it ends abruptly and then my waist goes in abruptly too. It doesn't look great as there are no flowing curves from torso to waist to hips, rather 'jumps' from one to the next. Naked I don't look great, but with the right clothes it looks acceptable and not very masculine. I didn't know there was such a thing as rib removal surgery? Does that give you a better waist?

Yes, I like my hips, actually. The liposuction surgeon even wanted to remove some fat there because she thought they are big enough already. :D - in early transition when I was not even out to everyone I was told I have hips that would make it good to have children - lol. I was blushing about this.
Yes sadly my ribcage is quite flaring, too. There is a break between ribs and waist. I would love to have a tapered shape but its not really possible, maybe with a corset or something like that. Or rib surgery, which however is very invasive - there are some myths and stories about this going around in the trans community. apparently no doctors in the US or Europe will usually do this without a medical reason, but Mexico and other places have it. Leaves scars though and is very painful....

QuoteI guess it's good that most of the surgeons you saw came to a broad agreement about what might help you.
I'd be wary about anyone who was suggesting a lot of surgery, if you already pass well, and think your face is generally feminine already.

Well - so and so.
The downside is, the "consensus" was that my face is quite female already, but can be made more feminine with surgeries, but sind I have no one big thing that sticks out, these surgeries would have to be  several. A bit change on the forehead, some change to the nose, some modification of the chin, some hairline tranplants,... nothing big in each case but overall there should be change. So in a way it is "a lot of surgeries" (number of surgery sites) but not "a lot of surgery" (amount of change that has to be done) ... which means it is painful, expensive , but only gives subtle changes

QuoteI went into the whole FFS thing, thinking that I only wanted forehead, hairline and tracheal shave, and that's exactly what FT suggested. Just to 'test' them, I suggested some jaw work, and they were quite adamant I didn't need it, which I thought reflected well on them.
I guess the 'big five' are forehead, orbitals, nose, chin and jaw?

Yes, I call them big five because almost everyone can profit from them to some degree

I think the surgeons so far all downplayed my issue with the chin or jaw. Maybe it is because there cannot be changed much to it or maybe the changes needed are not their expertise - I do think my chin sticks out - I have a wide jaw and cheeks - slightly asian influence apparently, my grandfather had "slit eyes" - but a narrow real tooth distance. I think especially if I wear shoals or hav emy hair open and hanging to the sides of the face, the chin/lower jaw looks too big. But FFS surgeons so far only said to shave off a little, Facialteam suggested it is optional and not really worth it, probably. So in that sense I am a bit unsure.

QuoteI am very lucky that I don't 'need' any rhinoplasty, because of all the plastic surgery 'changes' that I see women doing (both cis and trans) it's the nose, and lips, that can look the most unnatural, to me. Out of all the changes I could make to my face, I'd be the most afraid to change the nose and lips.

I guess my wishes would be to straighten the nose a bit and remove the little bumb on top and maybe do a lip lift. But no bigger changes like reducing the size of the nose massivley or injecting the lips with a lot of stuff. But without removing the bump on the nose, a new forehead would look only half as good, according to the VFFS simulation.

QuoteAnd I worry that the scar may never be fully hidden, and I'd go from trying to hide a male-pattern hairline, to trying to hide a hairline scar instead. Just exchanging one problem for another, and that's not appealing to me.

Yes, I have heard this from some who had FFS - the scar is no problem because they wear bangs or hairstyles that cover them anyways - d'uh that is not the point for me getting FFS - The goal would be to also be able to pull the hair back in a ponytail for sports or work and still not get problems. I can wear bangs now and have no problem, if I want that, I can just leave it as it is.

QuoteWhat I got back from Alex looks good, and is just the subtle changes that FT suggested in the first place. If anything, the virtual FFS possibly shows too large a change, and I think the actual result, especially in the hairline area, will be more subtle, and that isn't a bad thing in my eyes.

Oh - you thoink so? Some said the real changes of FFS were actually more visible to them and more beautiful than the simulation. The simulation was a bit of a letdown for me because the changes are so subtle that in the case of chin and jaw I do not even see them without switching back and forth. The forehead change and most noteable the hairline change are more pronounced, but if I show the before and after simulation photos to someone else, they will always say "but that is the same photo!"... So it is subtle alright - if in reality it is more subtle, then its bordering on "not worth the effort". Maybe I should consider di Maggio as a second choice again, he was rather positive to be able to make my face clearly more feminine and 100% female looking and was not so much emphasizing the subtlety of the changes... I would not want to get this surgery and then only get 50% improvement and still have a remaining percentage of my face looking masculine.

Quote from: anjaq on March 14, 2017, 03:27:38 AM
That sounds like a reasonable expense.

Well, I really wanted to consider not getting anything done, but I cannot get it out of my head for good and I know it will keep popping up until I do something :( :(
Yes, I like my hips, actually. The liposuction surgeon even wanted to remove some fat there because she thought they are big enough already. :D - in early transition when I was not even out to everyone I was told I have hips that would make it good to have children - lol. I was blushing about this.
Yes sadly my ribcage is quite flaring, too. There is a break between ribs and waist. I would love to have a tapered shape but its not really possible, maybe with a corset or something like that. Or rib surgery, which however is very invasive - there are some myths and stories about this going around in the trans community. apparently no doctors in the US or Europe will usually do this without a medical reason, but Mexico and other places have it. Leaves scars though and is very painful....
Well - so and so.
The downside is, the "consensus" was that my face is quite female already, but can be made more feminine with surgeries, but sind I have no one big thing that sticks out, these surgeries would have to be  several. A bit change on the forehead, some change to the nose, some modification of the chin, some hairline tranplants,... nothing big in each case but overall there should be change. So in a way it is "a lot of surgeries" (number of surgery sites) but not "a lot of surgery" (amount of change that has to be done) ... which means it is painful, expensive , but only gives subtle changes

Yes, I call them big five because almost everyone can profit from them to some degree

I think the surgeons so far all downplayed my issue with the chin or jaw. Maybe it is because there cannot be changed much to it or maybe the changes needed are not their expertise - I do think my chin sticks out - I have a wide jaw and cheeks - slightly asian influence apparently, my grandfather had "slit eyes" - but a narrow real tooth distance. I think especially if I wear shoals or hav emy hair open and hanging to the sides of the face, the chin/lower jaw looks too big. But FFS surgeons so far only said to shave off a little, Facialteam suggested it is optional and not really worth it, probably. So in that sense I am a bit unsure.
I guess my wishes would be to straighten the nose a bit and remove the little bumb on top and maybe do a lip lift. But no bigger changes like reducing the size of the nose massivley or injecting the lips with a lot of stuff. But without removing the bump on the nose, a new forehead would look only half as good, according to the VFFS simulation.
Yes, I have heard this from some who had FFS - the scar is no problem because they wear bangs or hairstyles that cover them anyways - d'uh that is not the point for me getting FFS - The goal would be to also be able to pull the hair back in a ponytail for sports or work and still not get problems. I can wear bangs now and have no problem, if I want that, I can just leave it as it is.
Oh - you thoink so? Some said the real changes of FFS were actually more visible to them and more beautiful than the simulation. The simulation was a bit of a letdown for me because the changes are so subtle that in the case of chin and jaw I do not even see them without switching back and forth. The forehead change and most noteable the hairline change are more pronounced, but if I show the before and after simulation photos to someone else, they will always say "but that is the same photo!"... So it is subtle alright - if in reality it is more subtle, then its bordering on "not worth the effort". Maybe I should consider di Maggio as a second choice again, he was rather positive to be able to make my face clearly more feminine and 100% female looking and was not so much emphasizing the subtlety of the changes... I would not want to get this surgery and then only get 50% improvement and still have a remaining percentage of my face looking masculine.

Y'know, I wonder if we should take this convo to private messaging? I'm worried about clogging up this thread with our chatting, even though I'm quite enjoying it.

I know what you mean about a nagging thought that just won't go away, I've had a few of those in my time  ;D
I think that FFS is one such thought, even though I really do feel I'd benefit from it, and even if that benefit is mostly psychological.

I'm jealous of your hips, mine are certainly not my best asset, and I know I could get hip/thigh implants, but I don't want to have any kind of implants at all. Just something I'm not keen on personally.
I'm quite lucky to have small hands/wrists and relatively small feet. My frame and height are on the tall/broad side for women, but not outside of the normal range I see when out and about. Most of my facial features are androgynous enough to have responded well to 16 years of HRT, and I'm very lucky in that respect.
I did used to wear a corset (actually it was a waist cincher) because I have spinal problems, and it helped my posture a lot, and the side effect was a more feminine figure. But one day I just had enough of doing that, and now I rely on exercise to control my waist as best I can.
I can imagine that rib removal surgery might be very painful, I think I'll leave that alone  ;)

The way you describe your FFS recommendations, as being lots of small subtle changes, I fully understand your trepidation and hesitation in going forward. That must be quite a difficult decision.
For me, the changes recommended are less subtle, but only in a couple of areas, hence the overall effect is still subtle, but the surgery is less invasive because it isn't over most of my face. In fact looking at my VFFS, it's really quite obvious where things need to be changed, and what effect they will have. In fact if I discount the tracheal shave because that is more neck than face, it's only my forehead/orbitals/eyebrows that would be subtly changed, so one area. Of course that doesn't include my hairline, but that's not exactly on my face either. If you add nose/chin/jaw work to that, then it really does start to become more invasive.

My chin is a bit broad, but as it is a family trait on my mother's side, and she has the same look to her chin, I'm fine with leaving it as it is. I really don't want to erase the character or family likeness from my face, and I have seen that happen to some people who have had quite invasive facial plastic surgery. They end up with what I term "generic good looks", but lose some facial character and personality at the same time. I don't want to smooth everything out, I'm in my mid-40's, and my face has developed along certain family character lines, and I'm fine with keeping that, even if it doesn't give the the ultimate feminine face.

I have heard of people talking about the side effects of changing certain facial features having a knock-on effect on other features, which by themselves, were perfectly fine before. If your face has a certain broadness to it, but is overall feminine, then narrowing just the chin (for instance) might make other aspects of the face suddenly seem out of place. I guess this is where the VFFS comes into it's own.

My hair is just about the worst part of my face/head/appearance. It's very thin and very difficult to create any feminine style without the 'gaps' becoming too obvious. Out of everything, my crappy crappy hair is what knocks my everyday confidence the most. I can't wear bangs, there just isn't enough hair at the front of my head to do it. It's centre parting with a hairband, or wear a hat or a wig. And I've done wigs for a few years and I don't want to go back to that. I'm half expecting that I might have to have some further FUE hair transplants the following year to fill out the hairline more, if necessary. But at least I can get these done in the UK, probably at DHI.
My goal too is to be able to wear my hair tied up/back, who knows if that will ever be possible...

What I meant by the results of my VFFS being less subtle than the actual surgery results is entirely surrounding my hairline. Alex gave me quite a strong (well populated) hairline in the areas where the transplants are meant to go, and I actually think that the results won't give me such a dense hairline as that, especially as the hairline at the centre of my forehead is thin, so I fully expect the sides (where the transplants would go) to be equally as thin, so as to blend in. My whole hairline is thin, and I don't expect that there would be enough hair follicles available from the strip that FT remove from the scalp, to give me a really dense hairline. It's one area I'm quite anxious about, and I don't think I'd get a complete idea of what I ended up with until 1 year after surgery, when all the hairs had had a chance to grow. I have had a hair transplant before, and that took a year until the effects were really visible.
But as for the bone modifications, I reckon the VFFS should be pretty accurate. But until it's all done and healed, who really knows?

As I've always said, you need to decide what's best for you. I'm after subtle changes, so what's best for me might not be the same for you. If you want, we could exchange VFFS images with each other via private messaging, and give each other a critique of what we thought?

^ i wouldn't say a resume that includes performing additional surgeries on Pixie Fox is particularly comforting.  She's gone to another level which is probably waaaaay past "not dangerous".

V, I think going to private Messages is a good idea indeed

Hi V, I'm curious to know your hesitation with wigs. I have alopecia so I have to wear them. And I love them. People say they can't tell I'm wearing one but then I do get long stares and I wonder is It my exceptionally manly forehead (which I'm fixing) or is it the wig.Is that what you were experiencing with your wig...stares from people trying to figure out if you're wearing a wig or not? Thanks! Lily

Quote from: anjaq on March 14, 2017, 04:28:09 PM
V, I think going to private Messages is a good idea indeed

:)

Quote from: TigerLilyNYC on March 14, 2017, 06:59:59 PM
Hi V, I'm curious to know your hesitation with wigs. I have alopecia so I have to wear them. And I love them. People say they can't tell I'm wearing one but then I do get long stares and I wonder is It my exceptionally manly forehead (which I'm fixing) or is it the wig.Is that what you were experiencing with your wig...stares from people trying to figure out if you're wearing a wig or not? Thanks! Lily

Ah, I'm not knocking them, or anyone who wears them. It's purely a personal preference.
I've had some success with wigs, and at the beginning of my transition, I didn't have enough hair of my own, so I wore them all the time. Luckily with medication/HRT, a lot of my hair grew back, enough for me to not have to wear wigs any longer.
I did struggle with them sometimes, they were very hot in the summer, sometimes they would come adrift while I was out, and occasionally I didn't notice until it was too late. Some people thought it was my own hair, while others could immediately spot I was wearing a wig, and some were less than pleasant to me because of that. What can I say, some people just suck, like massively.
Also, wigs wear out, and I had to have a few of the same style so I could wear one while one was being washed, and as they began to wear out, I'd have to 'break in' a new one, in a way that wasn't obvious to others. Plus some jobs and activities just don't lend themselves readily to wig wearing. I found it nigh-on impossibly to wear a hat as well as a wig, and some jobs require you to do so.
I'm lucky that I don't have too severe alopecia, so I can mostly 'get away' with my own hair, but I do still have a couple of my wigs stored away, just in case I ever have to go back to wearing them. My boyfriend states quite frankly that I looked ridiculous in a wig, so much so that he can't bear to see old photos of me when I was wearing them.
So, as you can see, I've had mixed success with wigs.
Glad to hear you love yours :)
As for 'the stares', well I do get them, and I guess I'll never know exactly why, because I generally don't go up to folks and ask them why they were staring, except for the times when they make it pretty obvious why. I bet quite a few trans women have had that kind of experience  :(