I don't understand why people in America (and maybe other countries) are so obsessed with grammar. They seem to equate it to intelligence for some reason but I notice the opposite. Most "genius category" people I know (two people with Savant syndrome, and two more who are physically disabled) have very poor communication skills but are extremely skilled in other fields. All the doctors I have worked for writing is so bad I had to have them dictate their notes for me.
As a disabled American (with a neurological condition and slight Savant syndrome) people would often call me stupid for having bad grammar and then praise me for my high IQ, extensive medical knowledge, and skill in the arts. I just don't understand it, is it some form of ableism?
I think for most people they probably do point out people's grammar mistakes because they think the person may be 'dumb' as in lower class so think they don't know any better thus they feel superior or because they think they're helping by correcting someone's mistake; which can obviously make some people anxious as they may have dyslexia. In some others I believe it's because they think it may be the beginning of people not caring about language and not having enough respect for it.
In a few minor cases it could also be down to ableism; as you still have people who don't understand dyslexia and don't understand how difficult it is to live with.
Quote from: Elis on May 06, 2016, 04:11:51 PM
I think for most people they probably do point out peoples grammar mistakes because they think the person may be 'dumb' as in lower class so think they don't know any better thus they feel superior or because they think they're helping by correcting someone's mistake; which can obviously make some people anxious as they may have dyslexia. In some others I believe it's because they think it may be the beginning of people not caring about language and not having enough respect for it.
In a few minor cases it could also be down to ableism; as you still have people who don't understand dyslexia and don't understand how difficult it is living with it.
There, they're, their, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be! >:-) :laugh: <running away>
Some people do it because they are anal retentives... a single apostrophe or letter drives them into a furious rage.
Generally though it's because it makes it easier to understand what the person is writing about and trying to say. Spelling and grammar were developed so that everyone could be on the same page. It doesn't help that the spelling rules in English are pretty screwed up but it's the language we've got to work with.
Quote from: Elis on May 06, 2016, 04:11:51 PM
they think it may be the beginning of people not caring about language and not having enough respect for it.
I guess to be honest, on top of having no natural grammar skills I have never understood why it is considered important at all (and by extension you could say I don't care about it, though I do find language theory fascinating).
Language is constantly evolving and changing and forming subcategories of language. Someone at some point spelled "the" as "teh" which would be considered a spelling mistake in English but now it is used regularly in L33t speak. The brain is also a a limited resource it can only process and hold so much information, so why waste its potential on something so arbitrary. To me as long as you can understand someone, why does it matter if something is capitalized, is a run-on sentence or had an i before the e. I'm beginning to think it just one of those thing about being human that I don't understand (like small talk or why people want copper colored cars)
I don't think anyone is less intelligent because of their spelling or grammar. It's just a lapse in communication, which isn't necessarily connected to IQ. There are a lot of other possible causes behind it, such as disability. The reason I am a "grammar Nazi" is because communication is one of the foundations behind a strong society. I'm not blaming anyone. I just think it's important to get your message across without confusion. Words have meaning that our societies have assigned them and using them incorrectly skews the message. This also affects the speed that the reader can grasp the meaning behind the message. You may not want to spend much time thinking about your writing, but fewer people will be willing to read it because of that. I'm not perfect either, but it's still not something that should be ignored.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 06, 2016, 04:35:29 PMI have never understood why it is considered important at all
I know not to comment on people's spelling or grammar on a forum. But I have lost count of the number of times I have read a post and wondered what the heck they were talking about, just because the poor spelling, grammar or punctuation obscured the meaning.
There's one forum where I really enjoy answering people's questions. But every so often, I get one where the grammar is so bad that I just give up and let someone else try, because I have no idea what they are trying to say.
So, the importance to me is that it gives clarity.
Quote from: KathyLauren on May 06, 2016, 05:04:17 PM
I know not to comment on people's spelling or grammar on a forum. But I have lost count of the number of times I have read a post and wondered what the heck they were talking about, just because the poor spelling, grammar or punctuation obscured the meaning.
There's one forum where I really enjoy answering people's questions. But every so often, I get one where the grammar is so bad that I just give up and let someone else try, because I have no idea what they are trying to say.
So, the importance to me is that it gives clarity.
I'm not really talking about totally unintelligible writing, people can read most of the stuff I write but still complain about little things (for the most part) There are aspects of grammar you can easily tell by content. There, they're, and their can easily be told by context. I know Indiana is a state even if it is not capitalized. I can tell that you mean can't even when it is spelled cant. things like that.
Does one mean English or American Hinglish ? When I first encountered the in'ernet , I thought it was called the in'ernet. It was only later I found the missing " T "
Being well dyslexic spelling is not my Raison d'être and my grammar died years ago. She was a lovely person...
Paula, X.
As far as Doctors having bad handwriting; I think it has more to do with writing extremely fast and using a combination of acronyms/symbols/abbreviations. And for the grammar and spelling obsession we seem to have in the USA; that's just how we roll 🇺🇸
Personally, I've learned to let it go and let my nervous twitch happen without going to the keyboard.
Admittedly, if somebody claims to be the smartest in the discussion without using proper grammar, I'll treat that as an invitation to help them out. :angel:
I have a confession. I am a grammar Nazi. :-\
I have watched for years as the art of correct, concise, properly worded communication has turned into something unnecessary at worst and optional at best. I cringe when people like newsreaders use malapropisms and butcher what used to be commonly understood phrases and prepositions for the wrong purpose. I don't fly into a rage about it, I just shake my head as our language is diluted more and more by the careless and apathetic.
I often wondered if were possible to write a great work of fiction using only the most basic of words - and I think it is - but without the nuance and specificity of some of the less common words it would be very wordy and still may not convey exactly the author's intent. These days anyone can have a bash at being a writer, and we're flooded with crap. People in the BUSINESS of communication should at the very least (imho) be conversant with their tools. Signwriters, songwriters, politicians, newsreaders, teachers etc etc should not make basic grammatical and spelling/pronunciation errors.
For me it's a little like watching someone cut a tomato with the knife upside down, it works, but I dislike the mess it leaves behind. :(
PS Aussie here... we're terrible at grammar by and large ^-^ ( buy in large?)
When I'm reading, I do appreciate proper grammar. Sometimes I can't understand what people mean to say. Usually I can. I don't point out mistakes, however. I am dyslexic... sometimes I type lesdyxic because that's what I see. But it is also sort of a funny pun.
I understand that I post a stupid grammar bomb more often than I'd like. So who am I to criticize?
It's kind of a mix of ableism and I suppose the fact that in school people correct each other's grammar and so it seems sort of the done thing? I mean it's learned behaviour from adults that correct us while we're growing up. The strange thing is that it's hard for dyslexic people to always write clearly, but it's also hard to read when others don't do it. Just can't win!
i'm a fan of the stylised grammar that the internet often uses tho, because i spend too much time on tumblr i suppose, and a lot of the humor there seems to rely on run-on sentences and pur poseful typoes to indicate EMOTiON and ExitTEMENT... and ending a text message with a full stop means you're angry so i never do that either haha
and yet e.e. cummings - maddening. I struggled for a long time with Cormac McCarthy not using punctuation for dialogue, and doing stuff like capitalising some things (like American, Mexican) but not others (english, or spanish) too
Also if i see a typo or a misplaced comma on something in print, like a sign or a leaflet - especially if it comes from a university or a political party - it does annoy me because it means someone hasn't proofread, and i think that's bad design. unprofessional lol
the thing that irritates me the most is things like 'from the 1960's' or 'throughout the 1870's'... no, no apostrophe... it's a plural (a group of years) not something that belongs to the years... this is because i had a history teacher that was enraged by this too, and she must have had a big impact on me P:
Language does evolve though - 300 years ago every noun was capitalised. Nowadays that just looks really strange
In the case of my wife, she was a proofreader for a printing company. Misspelled words and bad grammar drive her crazy.
While I don't live in America I guess I could be categorized as one of the obsessed. When I correct someone I care for, it's usually because I see he is struggling to coherently express something he very much wants to convey and I want to make it easier in the future. At work I also do need to prevent situations where wrong action may be taken due to miscommunication. I've more than once seen something redone from scratch because of poorly worded instructions.
I also get rather confused when people seem to be vehement about something but seem to be saying something completely different than their attitudes/body language express. An example would be when someone dismisses something with an "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less." After a few exposures I did come to understand that the speaker didn't mean what he said—but the mutated expression still confuses me. Why say something confusing rather than use an expression that is clear and unambiguous?
Both as a child and later when acquiring new languages I myself always liked non-judgmental corrective feedback. I saw and still see the corrections to indicate the person I speak with cares enough about me to make an effort to help me. My own motivation is based on that personal experience and preference. That said, if someone I correct clearly doesn't like it I usually desist, unless the communication is work-related.
When I went to school proper spelling and grammar were very important. That was even the case when I was in college.
I have reviewed, edited and proof read many scientific reports and manuscripts. I have also done freelance editing and proof reading. Being a grammar Nazi is critical for those tasks. Poor writing annoys me but I do try to keep my opinions to myself unless a person asks for it.
Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk
I don't mind grammar and spelling as much as I used to. I used to be a crazy person who would correct even the slightest bit on spelling. But my grammar is atrocious, so I do not regard it so much, but the thing is I do not like that some people would shorten or abbreviate every word in there sentence. As an example of " r u 4 real" when I correct someone in a manner that they do not need to rush and think everything is a text and they want to send it yesterday.
But that's just my view on the matter.
Kate <3
Quote from: mac1 on May 06, 2016, 08:28:27 PM
When I went to school proper spelling and grammar were very important. That was even the case when I was in college.
I always found schools particularly colleges demands for perfect grammar/communication skills often used a excuse discrimination against people with learning disabilities. When I was in school teachers told me I stupid and inferior to my fellow student because I couldn't spell, I was often told I was worthless and wound never amount to anything (disability protection was not very good back then so I hope kids don't get told this anymore) I was rejected from a few colleges for have sub-par verbal communication skills (not being able to speak a second language) and refused accommodation even with my neurologist said he was willing to claim under oath that I had a medical condition that caused my learning disability and that I should receive accommodation. (on the bright side I found a school happy to except me and graduated at the top of my class) It makes me sad to think my non-verbal cousin will never get excepted into higher education, she will most likely not live old enough to go to college but it would be nice to think she actually had a chance.
See, I'm not correcting any of your last post. I know what you mean and accept the errors as I know where you're coming from, but it still irks me a wee bit ;D
Discrimination and prejudice in any form should not be condoned.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 06, 2016, 09:01:19 PM
I always found schools particularly colleges demands for perfect grammar/communication skills often used a excuse discrimination against people with learning disabilities. When I was in school teachers told me I stupid and inferior to my fellow student because I couldn't spell, I was often told I was worthless and wound never amount to anything
That must have felt awful. Fortunately not all schools these days are like that. I have two young relatives who were dyslexic. I say were, because both their parents and the schools they attended made a serious effort to address the problem. They succeeded.
In one case the breakthrough came when someone realized the child was trying to read each word backwards. The next step was to practice reading with the book held upside down. After a few years this child was able to read and write without any issues.
The other case was a bit more difficult. The problem appears to have stemmed from rushing through stages of childhood without mastering all skills one normally acquires at each level. The prescription was to encourage going back to practice. This child was even told to walk on all fours for a while. His progress took a bit longer, but eventually he also overcame his disabilities.
What I wanted to say was that discrimination based on substandard linguistic skills is obviously non-productive. Many people I know don't speak, read or write their native language well. That doesn't make them any less intelligent. However, at the same time I feel that at least at school, at home, and at a workplaces that requires accurate and precise communication a conscious effort to help people improve their language skills should be a given. In some environments I've worked in miscommunication can cost lives or livelihoods.
I've had to function in multilingual environments more than once, and know from personal experience how limiting it is to be unable to communicate. Because of this, if someone at work or among my friends wants or does not mind help I try to do what I can. If assistance is rejected I desist. In other circles I generally don't bother...
Quote from: kittenpower on May 06, 2016, 05:35:29 PM
As far as Doctors having bad handwriting; I think it has more to do with writing extremely fast and using a combination of acronyms/symbols/abbreviations. And for the grammar and spelling obsession we seem to have in the USA; that's just how we roll 🇺🇸
'MURICA!!!Proper spelling and grammar is just...well,
proper. A single error is understandable, but an entire paragraph is not.
If one spent 30 seconds on proofreading before posting, most could be corrected imho. 30 seconds isn't that much time when one considers how much time was used in writing the original post.
We spend 20 minutes+ getting ready to go out to work...what's 20 seconds to check if your zipper is up or your slip isn't showing?
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 06, 2016, 05:16:59 PM
I'm not really talking about totally unintelligible writing, people can read most of the stuff I write but still complain about little things (for the most part) There are aspects of grammar you can easily tell by content. There, they're, and their can easily be told by context. I know Indiana is a state even if it is not capitalized. I can tell that you mean can't even when it is spelled cant. things like that.
For the most part, I just roll my eyes and carry on, because, you are right, the meaning can usually be extracted from the mangled grammar. But sometimes it is difficult.
One that I am finding more and more is the use of 'can' when the context suggests they probably meant 'can't', and similar dropped negatives. I find that bizarre: saying the opposite of what you mean. You read it through the way it is written and then slam on the brakes because it makes no sense. Then you read it two or three more times to establish the context. Finally you realize that what they meant wasn't what they wrote. Too much work!
Okay, I'm sure my grammar, tense, and sentence and paragraph structure suck most of the time, but I do my best with the bits I remember. English is a very ambiguous language, with completely archaic and arbitrary rules. But that's because it just steals everything from other languages, which I kind of dig actually. I've heard it said that "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." Language evolves or it dies, just like every other living thing. While some usages do bother me, such as using literally to mean figuratively, I try to appreciate the beauty of a language that adapts itself to changes in time and circumstance.
Eloquence and elegance in the use of language is something I greatly admire and aspire to, and I get quite happy when I find a new word I like. Both of which are probably really sad, and I can only guess the extent to which my writing comes across as both pretentious and ignorant at the same time. But I like cool words so I try to use them to deliver the full meaning and nuance of the thought I'm trying to convey. Earlier this year I stumbled across the word "transmundane", I was happy I found that one :)
As far as correcting other people's mistakes, I generally try not to as I don't want to embarrass or insult anyone whose intent was not malicious. Personally, I would prefer for people to correct me so that I can try to improve myself, though I see how it can be rude and condescending to point out where someone else is wrong.
I don't judge for any mistakes I encounter except in two cases - 1. When they're correcting someone else for something, grammar related or not, and 2. if it's in a publication of some sort. If you're publishing something and you don't bother to find and fix your mistakes, or at least get someone else to point them out to you, then why should I take what you're writing seriously? You certainly don't. Forum posts, personal blogs, and other informal writings excepted.
Also, I'm kind of embarrassed to post anything on this subject, as I guarantee that there are tons of mistakes. And I know it's overly verbose, sorry :embarrassed:
Quote from: zirconia on May 07, 2016, 05:23:18 AM
"I always found schools particularly colleges demands for perfect grammar/communication skills often used a excuse discrimination against people with learning disabilities. When I was in school teachers told me I stupid and inferior to my fellow student because I couldn't spell, I was often told I was worthless and wound never amount to anything"
That must have felt awful.
It did, even now it hurts thinking about it a little. unfortunately they were kind of right, It didn't matter how well I did in college or how hard I worked. I still needed help from vocational rehab to get a job. Had two job offer revoked after they found out about my medical conditions, had one other job forced me out of work with poor working conditions and two other cut my hours and give me nonsense jobs to keep me out of the way. For some reason I though if could show I was skilled or smart enough no one would care that I was disabled.
Quote from: zirconia on May 07, 2016, 05:23:18 AM
Fortunately not all schools these days are like that.
That good to hear. ;D
Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
O I get quite happy when I find a new word I like. Both of which are probably really sad, and I can only guess the extent to which my writing comes across as both pretentious and ignorant at the same time.
I love learning new words, probably why I loved pharmacology when everyone else hated it.
Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
As far as correcting other people's mistakes, I generally try not to as I don't want to embarrass or insult anyone whose intent was not malicious. Personally, I would prefer for people to correct me so that I can try to improve myself, though I see how it can be rude and condescending to point out where someone else is wrong.
I have no problem when teachers or the people that edit my papers correct me nicely but I see so many people correcting maliciously or as a way to try to win an argument.
Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 08:56:04 AM
Also, I'm kind of embarrassed to post anything on this subject, as I guarantee that there are tons of mistakes. And I know it's overly verbose, sorry :embarrassed:
don't be embarrassed. I understood you fine and too me that is all that matters. I believe your should never be embarrassed to talk or speak your mind, no matter how poorly or well you write or talk.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 07, 2016, 09:16:55 AM
I have no problem when teachers or the people that edit my papers correct me nicely but I see so many people correcting maliciously or as a way to try to win an argument.
And this is where I will agree with you. While I believe in being as coherent as possible in your writing, using someone's grammatical or spelling errors to show that the point of the message is incorrect is a straw man fallacy. Don't be an ass about it.
While not an expert and not OCD about it, I do like correct grammar and spelling. I am terrible at spelling but spend time to check it.
English is a language that is begged, borrowed and stolen. Therefore, the possibility of confusion is huge.
What is language? It is a means of communication. Whether we are talking about technical information or our inner most thoughts. It is a way to share and pass that information on.
If words are strung together in a way that does not follow generally accepted rules or conventions, we are at risk of passing along the wrong information; or being misunderstood.
I would agree that we are able to get through most messages, texts, and posts that are not "proper'. However, it takes more time and brainpower. I'm lazy.
With warmth,
Joanna
Quote from: Joanna50 on May 07, 2016, 03:09:29 PM
If words are strung together in a way that does not follow generally accepted rules or conventions, we are at risk of passing along the wrong information; or being misunderstood.
I would agree that we are able to get through most messages, texts, and posts that are not "proper'. However, it takes more time and brainpower. I'm lazy.
I totally understand where you're coming from but I think I really depends on what you believe is "proper". There is a big difference between prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar.
Prescriptive grammar is a belief that there is only one proper way of using grammar, and that there is a distinct right and wrong way of using language.
Descriptive grammar is a belief that any way that gets the point across is proper grammar so as long as someone can be understood there is no right or wrong way.
Both theories are accepted in linguistics. Melissa A. Fabello wrote an interesting article on how prescriptive grammar methods effects feminism and the "social justice movements" in general http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/grammar-snobbery/
Quote from: Beth Andrea on May 07, 2016, 05:40:07 AM
If one spent 30 seconds on proofreading before posting, most could be corrected imho. 30 seconds isn't that much time when one considers how much time was used in writing the original post.
Many people are incapable of writing with correct grammar whether they spend 30 seconds or 24 hours. I'm one of those people, I can do no better no matter how long I spend. My doctors claimed it was a medical miracle I could talk, read and write at all. Some people don't consider there grammar wrong in the first place, they were raised and taught to talk the way they do and to them it is correct.
Quote from: Midnightstar on May 07, 2016, 06:51:44 PM
I could never spell like others and i used to be very upset because no matter how hard i tried i could never learn to spell as good as them.
I know that feel.
Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 07, 2016, 05:43:28 PM
Many people are incapable of writing with correct grammar whether they spend 30 seconds or 24 hours. I'm one of those people, I can do no better no matter how long I spend. My doctors claimed it was a medical miracle I could talk, read and write at all.
That's amazing, I never would have guessed you had any problems at all based on your writing. It's far better than a lot of things I read.
And I'm sorry about your cousin; the world can be a cruel and unfair place. It does have its bright spots though :)
Quote from: IdontEven on May 07, 2016, 06:55:49 PM
I know that feel.
That's amazing, I never would have guessed you had any problems at all based on your writing. It's far better than a lot of things I read.
And I'm sorry about your cousin; the world can be a cruel and unfair place. It does have its bright spots though :)
thanks, I use a computer to write and read but it can only do so much. The program is called kurzweil it was made for people with visually impairments but my speech therapist had me start using it in middle school. Technology is amazing.
Thank you, my cousin has had a good life and I'm happy she will be able to live her life without adult worries.
Quote from: Midnightstar on May 07, 2016, 07:06:28 PM
I had to rewrite what i said it came out to long and wasn't worded good.
I'm going to put this short and simple instead
First of i have a lot of experience with this because as a young kid was bullied very heavily because i have bad spelling and grammar. Hence why some people still sometimes see me being self confident and saying "I'm sorry for my bad spelling" yea, it's stuck with me for a long time. Iv'e always wanted to spell always wanted to be like them people who made themselves out to look like protectionists on spelling. But little did i understand at that time people like that aren't worth the effort and they are mean these people are often what iv'e come to realize as "Trolls" they meaningfully out to create harm and cause chaos to other people for the thrill. I used to try getting them to understand people who couldn't spell but they didn't want to be apart of that understanding or learning process. Some have a chance and are not as bad once told why you can't actually spell but others/many not so much sad but true iv'e found it to be. Many of them are doing what they do because they themselves have low confidence in something inside their life there just like childhood bullies accept they haven't learned to grow up with respect and they continue to hurt others. I wouldn't say it's the people in america i think it's the mean kind of people any where inside the world who do this and the reasons have become clear to me over time. Don't get me wrong though some people like this just need to be asked nicely to stop or spoken to so i'm speaking from the end that isn't so willing to learn. And the ones not willing to learn or be open and nice are the ones that don't care.
Iv'e seen them range from all over the place in every state or country though.
Sorry I think I missed your first post. Sorry you were bullied so much, it is terrible. Things like that shouldn't happen but I understand why they do? I have noticed too that bullies often have low self esteem or get a power high from being mean to others. unfortunately understanding this doesn't make the victims of bullying feel any better, or makes the pain go way (sure wish it did though). Don't even get me started on trolls.
I agree that it is not just an issue among Americans but I have only been in America(and Canada) and I have no experience living any were else so I didn't feel it was my place to say everywhere. Its true that people sometimes just need to be told about other points of view, I think ignorance is the base cause of a lot issues and it always makes me feel good when I see people open to change and learn. ;D
Okay. I get what you are saying. Let's pull out an old chestnut. Here is why grammar and punctuation saves lives:
"Let's eat, Grandma"
Vs
"Let's rest Grandma"
Or the name of a book that has words that read:
Eats, Shoots and Leaves.
It has a picture of a Panda on it. You could easily conjure up an image with a cowboy hat, smoking gun and a half eaten plate of food on a saloon table.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
I thought it was "Let's eat Grandma" >:-)
I'm not particularly obsessed with proper grammar or spelling and I don't get angry with folks when they misspell or use various words incorrectly
I'll try to help them if I can and I don't wish to embarrass them, but mostly I find their illiteracy somewhat humorous and sometimes it's somewhat entertaining to try to figure out what someone is on about
But that's just me and I don't always get everything right either so who am I to judge? However, I have worked rather hard to improve upon my literary skills in order to hopefully convey the proper meaning of the topic at hand
You might possibly be amazed by how many Americans and other folks from English speaking countries struggle with literacy as well
Hugs
Quote from: Rafaela on May 07, 2016, 03:00:45 AM
See, I'm not correcting any of your last post. I know what you mean and accept the errors as I know where you're coming from, but it still irks me a wee bit ;D
Discrimination and prejudice in any form should not be condoned.
I too find it annoying when people use except/excepting/excepted when they actually mean accept/accepting/accepting.
Quote from: V M on May 09, 2016, 08:50:31 PM
I thought it was "Let's eat Grandma" >:-)
Exactly. I almost wish I meant to do that. Not really the point I was making but pretty confusing.
(That will teach me not to look closer at my phone when trying to post from it). ;)
Warmly,
Joanna
I accept errors from automakers except when the word was "auto complete" :angel: :police: >:-) >:-) ::)
Quote from: mac1 on May 09, 2016, 09:40:48 PM
I too find it annoying when people use except/excepting/excepted when they actually mean accept/accepting/accepting.
That's to be expected... ;D
Hugs, Devlyn