I write this knowing it may upset a few, so sorry if it does, send me a PM telling me what a a-hole I am but let's try to keep the conversation on topic..
Maybe it's been that long since I transitioned, maybe I'm out of touch, but something popped up on my Facebook feed the other night and I bit.
It was a pre-out person venting how she hasn't told her wife that she has been on hormones for a few months and she's worried that when she tells her their marriage will be over.
I reiled that her wife would be more likely to leave for not telling her the truth than for being transgendered and she bit my head off.
Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?
Well imo all we can do is guide people and make suggestions.
If its done too aggressively in their opinion they may react emotionally.
They probably tried to talk to their spouse indirectly but got a neg message.
Imo talking may help. And maybe a gender therapist helping explaining.
But if its the view of the spouse they want to leave its their opinion.
Imo it also depends on the partnerhip.
Imo it should be possible to talk each other on a deep level. But some people may feel its not possible.
All in all imo communication should help.
hugs
Quote from: Nicole on May 12, 2016, 05:33:15 AM
I write this knowing it may upset a few, so sorry if it does, send me a PM telling me what a a-hole I am but let's try to keep the conversation on topic..
Maybe it's been that long since I transitioned, maybe I'm out of touch, but something popped up on my Facebook feed the other night and I bit.
It was a pre-out person venting how she hasn't told her wife that she has been on hormones for a few months and she's worried that when she tells her their marriage will be over.
I reiled that her wife would be more likely to leave for not telling her the truth than for being transgendered and she bit my head off.
Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?
Imo, I don't think it's a lack of understanding trans people. To me, love is a precious thing, you want to protect it, nuture it, love it. I think your friend is just afraid of hurting her wife. When someone comes out as trans in a relationship, it really can put a strain on things. It's a two way street here, either the wife will leave, or the wife will be accepting and nothing bad happens. There is some explaining that should be done, explaining why they didn't come out right from the start, and if the wife understands, then hopefully they would stay together. It is selfish what she's doing keeping it from her wife, but at the same time I can understand why she's hiding it from her wife.
Quote from: Nicole on May 12, 2016, 05:33:15 AM
Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?
I think its wrong to do that, but I don't think we're anything special. Being transgender doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else, and we encompass the full range or human behavior, good and bad.
A very clear example of this is trans people who are intolerant to other trans people. Just goes to show you that for all the intolerance we suffer, "we" are just as capable of doing the same as anyone else.
I doubt we're breeding a new generation that's any different to the previous one. I find human nature quite disappointing.
I agree with AnonyMs.
We are a segment of society..a group of individuals. And in any group such as we, there will be a few who are reckless in how very important things are handled. Sadly, the writer may lose her wife either way. But also sadly, reckless happens in all walks of life and it is a reflection on society rather than any particular segment.
To be brutally honest with you Nicole, I'm not entirely onboard with you.
For me, being a good friend means listening, empathising, being supportive and caring for my friends. I advise or counsel my friends if they ask for my opinion or advice. Sometimes if they are lost, I just help explore options by asking questions. I wouldn't want a friend being judgemental about my struggles or assertive over me when I am vulnerable (exception if I am at risk of imminent physical harm to myself or others).
I find your last paragraph a little bit disturbing. It kind of sounds like 'honesty' is an important value for you, and possibly your support of your friend may have come into conflict with this. I'd be devastated if I turned to a friend for support while I was struggling with the uncertainty of my marriage's future, and I received the kind of judgemental response contained in your last paragraph. It doesn't sound like the kind of words any friend of mine would use to describe me while I was down and out.
Are you sure the importance you place on 'honesty' as a core value is not interfering with your ability to be a supportive friend?
Just a thought - based on the limited facts available....
I tend to agree with Nicole but I also think that should you decide to live stealth and marry, your partner should be aware of your status. A marriage binds two people together as one and the only secrets that should exist in the marriage might be something like a security clearance. Problems as well as the good things are meant to be shared.
I would want to help my partner however I could even if it was to provide emotional support. I have already seen far to many cases where the somebody started HRT without telling their partner and the partner was more upset about the secret than the fact they were transgender.
Perhaps i'm way off-base with this (my apologies if so), but here goes. You are coming from a place where you have lived this life for years and you have undoubtedly spent much time during those years thinking about it and working toward a place of enlightenment, peace, and acceptance. You have made the journey and you speak from hard-won experience.
Perhaps you don't recall what those early years of discovery were like - the relentless pressure that comes from GD; the rash decisions that we all make; the impulsiveness; the poor judgement; the hopelessness of being in a relationship and fearing what being trans is going to do to that relationship.
I think that this person is in that place of uncertainty and was hoping for some reassurance. What you posted was the truth, but perhaps this person was not in a place to accept that truth - and thats why you got the harsh reaction.
"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:
At the first gate, ask yourself "Is is true?"
At the second gate ask, "Is it necessary?"
At the third gate ask, "Is it kind?"
~ Rumi
I don't think that we are
Breeding a generation of selfish liars, but fear is a really big motivator for some and can be more powerful that holding your own. I absolutely share the same opinion as you--but that doesn't necessarily mean others a wrong.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Another take on this subject. Two years ago I accepted who I am and Denny became Denni. After living in the shadows for a lifetime Denni became stronger each day. After one year she decided it was time to tell her wife who she really was. It was something that many have gone through already but had a result that I mistakenly never thought of. Looking back on it now I should have gradually worked toward it and not everything at once. My wife has been on meds for some time for mild depression, well that suddenly became major after telling her. If something would have happened to her I would not have been able to live with myself. Since then we have basically gone back to the way it was before, with me living my life as Denni but doing nothing to draw attention to myself. My dysphoria has gotten to the point where I am seriously considering going on low dose HRT to soften it. I obviously will not be able to tell my wife if I go forward, and after much research, reading, and helpful information on this site I feel confident that the results will be negligible as far as physical changes to not draw any additional attention. The emotional changes are much anticipated and I think will help as my life goes on. Again another take on this subject, thoughts? Thanks
Probably because of that reason, the surgeon refused to give me prescription for HRT, although the psychiatrist allowed it. The surgeon said to me that he will do if I visit again with my wife. And I already gave up HRT even before telling it to my wife.
The surgeon explained me that the effects of HRT are far more dramatic than just crossdressing, and most wives would not tolerate it.
barbie~~
I don't understand sometimes either ;)
On lying, well, who supports that? I know the hardest person to come out to is often considered to be yourself. Did I lie to myself and the world for decades? Yes by omission, and there are shades of grey or mitigating circumstances when we weigh the potential harm of uncertainty and complete disclosure about something we often do not fully understand or simply repress as untrue. My partner knew me all along and we did this together, like most everything in our lives
Selfish much? Philosophers consider whether altruism even exists. No doubt our internal focus during self discovery and transition are reasonably an obsession of sorts as it takes considerable time, $, and energy to work through the challenges we face. We do need to accept and even love ourselves to realize our potential IMHO.
Honesty, empathy, sharing and compassion are laudable traits that are worth developing. How do we best encourage that in ourselves and our community?
Fear of loss drives people to behavior that it they would not exhibit otherwise. The fear of isolation is probably one of the largest human fears. I can empathize with the person you describe, but like you i question her wisdom.
All of us who transition with a spouse have to understand there is a risk of driving a wedge in the marriage that is unsurmountable. I read in the recent study about 50% of young married folks divorce over it, and perhaps 60-70% of older married folks do (i would have thought it should be flipped, but that is what it said)
When i told my wife i wanted to transition and begin HRT, we had a lot of work to do (despite the fact she always knew me as a feminine guy) and that work is ongoing. We both are committed though and i would say we are now closer than we were in the past. She would agree.
I'm guilty of keeping things from her, I've not been a princess/prince of good behavior at times, but i've learned as we have aged, that trust is more important than avoidance of conflict. I've also learned that very important fact that not all disagreement will be resolved. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree and move on.
One could question marriages that are fragile enough that fundamental fears and struggles cannot be expressed between spouses. But i feel a little moralist in doing so, because i know that we are all imperfect beings that attempt to pair up for life, and we get all the good and bad that goes with that.
I don't think it's a new generation thing; I think people have been doing this for many generations already, and that it is driven by fear, as others have said.
However, I also think you're right about the risks - my wife has spent years in support groups helping other partners of trans people, and one of the biggest predictors that a marriage will fail is the partner's sense of betrayal/belief that there was deceit. Which goes double if the trans person starts HRT without telling them. So, yes, it is entirely possible that by a choice born of fear and to protect their marriage, this person has doomed their relationship.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 12, 2016, 08:59:05 AM
"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:
At the first gate, ask yourself "Is is true?"
At the second gate ask, "Is it necessary?"
At the third gate ask, "Is it kind?"
~ Rumi
I really like that Devlyn.
Nicole, I feel we really don't have enough information to judge.
I know my wife has basically said if I start E, our relationship is over. We've been married for close to 30 years. She's known almost from the start that I've been battling this. She has refused to go to a therapists as a couple or by herself. She doesn't want to talk about anything transgender. So I'm struggling with my dysphoria taking spiro. It sort of helps but not much. I'm between a rock and a hard place. Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage? Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.
I'm sure the answer is easier for some, but I have no clue what to do. Perhaps my example shows that it might not be as black and white as you think.
Take care,
Paige :)
Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
I'm between a rock and a hard place. Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage? Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.
I am right with you Paige. I have even been so desperate and frustrated with my situation that I permanently reduced T production. Afterwards, I talked with my doctors and wife about all of it. They did not believe I needed a Psych eval for that, but it does show how much I love my wife and family, but that am having a very difficult time with my wife and kids unwillingness to accept that I am Trans. So I live as a Man, take very low E, only a bit of Spiro, and continue to desire electrolysis each morning as I despise shaving my face and neck. Some days I am ok as a man. Some days not...not today. Not when I have not had much E. I think I do better when I focus on God, the Bible and wife and kids. I don't have a single person in my life that understands me, and accepts the good and trans in me.
The thing I think you all miss, which by the way I have tested and proven in my own life, and that of my fiancee susan too, is that most of the time people will continue to be obstructive just long enough for you to prove your determination. Once they see your mind is settled they usually back off and eventually come around. The point is if you chicken out or blink first you never reach that point, and live in the illusion that the problem is insoluble.
It's not, it's only insoluble if you give up before you reach the solution.
In short compromise and soft peddling is a silly notion... if you are going to it, do it come hell or high water. If not then don't, but as Yoda would say, "there is no try, there is only do or do not."
I was married. I lived in a very homophobic society (Mormon ville). I withheld my lie for a few years until I was discovered. I can't fathom doing that now. I have a broader perspective on life. I'm sure there are many who feel they are in the same position I was in. I do get it, even though I now feel it is wrong. We do live in a much more open society now. I still get it.
It's hard to use discretion when someone else seems to be doing the wrong thing. Sometimes we need to let people do stupid things. It is most unfortunate. But life is like that.
I don't think it should be looked at as a transgender thing , I think it's a human thing , honesty should always be the best policy.
If you cannot be honest, open, and forthcoming to your BFF and person you commited to spend your life with, then why the hell are you there?
Is it better not to tell her, Or... wait untill she asks "Hon, why do have boobs?" and punt?
I can see stalling to see if after a month or two the HRT magic worked for you and it's rapidly approaching the "It's almost too late to talk to her" point. I went through a similar situation with my wife when I first started attending a TG support group. By meeting #3 I knew I needed to be there and, it was almost too late to tell her if there was going to be any chance of keeping the marriage viable.
Honesty is a requirement in marriage. I would not want to be in their shoes when she finds out. I think losing the marriage could be the least of their worries.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on May 12, 2016, 03:31:18 PM
The thing I think you all miss, which by the way I have tested and proven in my own life, and that of my fiancee susan too, is that most of the time people will continue to be obstructive just long enough for you to prove your determination. Once they see your mind is settled they usually back off and eventually come around. The point is if you chicken out or blink first you never reach that point, and live in the illusion that the problem is insoluble.
It's not, it's only insoluble if you give up before you reach the solution.
In short compromise and soft peddling is a silly notion... if you are going to it, do it come hell or high water. If not then don't, but as Yoda would say, "there is no try, there is only do or do not."
Hi Rejenny,
After 30 years of living with someone, you have a pretty good idea if the other person is bluffing. Unfortunately my wife is very stubborn and I really don't doubt for a minute that she'll walk away.
Thanks for the advice,
Paige :)
Quote from: JoanneB on May 12, 2016, 06:05:50 PM
If you cannot be honest, open, and forthcoming to your BFF and person you commited to spend your life with, then why the hell are you there?
Is it better not to tell her, Or... wait untill she asks "Hon, why do have boobs?" and punt?
I can see stalling to see if after a month or two the HRT magic worked for you and it's rapidly approaching the "It's almost too late to talk to her" point. I went through a similar situation with my wife when I first started attending a TG support group. By meeting #3 I knew I needed to be there and, it was almost too late to tell her if there was going to be any chance of keeping the marriage viable.
Why do you continue to spend your life with someone? Well you love each other, you love your kids and you don't want to cause a complete cluster <Not Permitted> to their lives. I didn't say honesty wasn't important, my wife knows I'm battling with this. She's not very sympathetic but she knows. All I'm saying is this isn't as easy as honesty is the best policy.
Thanks,
Paige :)
Mod Edit:Language
I love these thought provoking threads.
1st, I don't think we can have an expectation that transgender people are going to be any better than non transgender people overall. We are 1st and foremost humans, the good, the bad, the ugly. Half of all marriages at least fail. A big reason is infidelity. Is infidelity on the rise, or are people now holding themselves to a higher standard and choosing to not live with lies and a cheating spouse? My bet is the latter. So, in a way, that half fail number isn't necessarily a bad thing. IMO of course.
As for having a friend that is lying to their partner/ not divulging the truth of their being transgender, and going farther and farther on the path, a good friend, a true friend can only advise them of how they are only trapping themselves in their own prison by doing so. They can tell their friend that a marriage built on a weak foundation of lies will eventually fail anyway. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
A true friend will be there for them no matter what, once the bell tolls. Support them with whatever the result may be. A true friend doesn't have to give up their own standards, or cover for the other by way of perpetuating lies. We can draw our own lines as far as our behavior goes. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
What I often see on these forums is someone who will hit the jackpot of an accepting partner, or better, one who prefers the alternative lifestyle of gender variance. That person will not understand how or why others have such difficulties in their relationships. They misunderstand their behavior to be superior which causes someone to accept or like their gender variance. No matter how much a person makes sacrifices or compromises, an unaccepting partner is simply that. And, there are still a great many out there who are unaccepting.
The same goes for those who live in places that have higher than typical acceptance to gender variance or same sex orientation. "It is all in your own head, the fear of being out and about, no one really cares", so says the person living in San Francisco, or Greenwich village, or Provincetown. As accepting as those places are, there are places that are every bit not accepting. People are still being murdered just for being gay or transgender. People who are gay or transgender are still committing suicide because of the lack of acceptance from those around them. Their family who disowns them, their partners who leave them, friends who abandon a life long friendship because of it.
Like others have said above, the fear of abandonment, of being alone is strong. It is not always such an easy choice, to be who you really are but alone, or to be together with someone you love and hide. Of course we know that the best partner to have is one who knows all and accepts all. And the best way to find that person is to tell them upfront. Then, We don't have to go through all of the work to get acceptance, the often times years of patience while their partner slowly builds a comfort level to a point where they can even accept that their partner is transgender, let alone be ok with whatever changes they make in their lifestyle. Especially a full transition to their internal identity.
Obviously, there are success stories on here and other places. Some marriages and partnerships do survive it. Many don't. Anyone who is still concealing the truth of their being transgender lives in that fear that their marriage or partnership will end, and there is a good chance that they are right too. I think some people adopt an attitude of continuing concealment thinking each day I get away with it is another day with them and one less day without them.
Obviously for those who are or will transition, the bell tolls eventually, as it has to. Helen Boyd who most of us are aware of has even said that in cases of those who are CDers (not transitioning) that the wife not knowing may not always be the wrong thing. I am not going to necessarily agree with that. But from someone who has lived with it to the point they wrote books about it, their opinion is worth at least a few grains of salt.
Quote from: TessaLee on May 12, 2016, 12:29:46 PM
So I live as a Man, take very low E, only a bit of Spiro, and continue to desire electrolysis each morning as I despise shaving my face and neck. Some days I am ok as a man. Some days not...not today.
I live as a man, but I'm on a very high level of HRT and don't shave. Facial stubble keeps me looking male. To all external appearances I'm male, but the HRT keeps me sane.
I have decided I am not smart enough to live someone else' s life for them. I would want trans people to be truthful as soon as they can. Trans people owe it to themselves to try to be who they are. We should also be good people and take into account the feelings of others. It is a balancing act. For some that is harder than others. The fear inside of us, the pressure to be what everyone expects us to be can be immense. It would be a shame if we are not true to ourselves because we fear what could happen with people's reactions. Some may use others as a reason not to move forward with what they want to do for themselves. Others could be faced with a situation of really hurting someone they love if they do move forward. I guess if anyone wanted advice from me on being honest and coming out, I would say this. Be respectful, be thoughtful. Try to understand how the other person might feel. Show them the choice you are faced with. (For me it was being depressed, angry, and disliking myself vrs. a very tough road that gave the chance to be happy as a whole person.) Make it more of an explanation than an ultimatum. Be patient with a loved one if possible. I think so many times people's reactions are made or broken on how we present it. To be fair to us, we are someone's loved one. We don't deserve to be shut down, looked down on, or hated for what we are. Unfortunately, way to many trans people are faced with no win situations. I won't be mad at anyone handling things their way. I hope I don't sound like I am full of myself. I have been very lucky. It could have gone very different for me. All I know is that I had nothing to be ashamed of if it had gone bad. I did my best.
Moni
There are always so many threads that deal with how to get our partners and family to accept us now that we have revealed ourselves. But it is the not revealing before commitment is what is really the tough part for them as well as for ourselves. Rather than a bunch of how to threads of breaking the news, and dealing with the blow back, we should be working harder at getting people to do so before the commitments we make.
When we do so, it eliminates so many of the challenges and difficulties we who are TG face. Those who choose to be with us knowing about us from the start of commitment never go through all the issues of trust. Where might it go, what does this mean, how do I explain it now after so long? The list of these things goes on almost for eternity. Yet, there is almost no list at all when we are our authentic self from the beginning.
When we start out a relationship, form a commitment then tell, we ourselves are perpetuating it being wrong or negative in some manner. Even though we try our hardest to tell our partners that WE are really ok, and normal in more ways than we are not, our actions speak differently. If it isn't so wrong, or negative, why the years, maybe decades of hiding, lying and deception???
Most of us do not say to each other TO hide it, but IMO we are not helping each other enough by simply trying to mend the relationships post reveal. We should be working harder to not make the reveal a post reveal in the 1st place.
I definitely can see why your annoyed with that person tc. Trans people need to quite getting with someone and making that person believe they will always be the same person they fell in love with ie a male will always be his wives husband why expect anything else. Then out of nowhere he says I want to be a woman now or I have always been a woman and start transitioning confusing his kids and his wife. Expecting them to just be happy for his self realization and be chipper about it. It don't work that way and should not be expected to at any rate. If one feels like they should be the opposite gender than they should do something about before entering a ltr and having kids that already know you as one thing.
Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
I really like that Devlyn.
Nicole, I feel we really don't have enough information to judge.
I know my wife has basically said if I start E, our relationship is over. We've been married for close to 30 years. She's known almost from the start that I've been battling this. She has refused to go to a therapists as a couple or by herself. She doesn't want to talk about anything transgender. So I'm struggling with my dysphoria taking spiro. It sort of helps but not much. I'm between a rock and a hard place. Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage? Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.
I'm sure the answer is easier for some, but I have no clue what to do. Perhaps my example shows that it might not be as black and white as you think.
Take care,
Paige :)
Need to have balanced hormones, killing your T without something to replace it is not an ideal long term solution.
I told my wife before we got married I liked dressing as a woman,did some dressing for 11yrs,then during a major fight,it was then I told her the full story for I had nothing too lose. She told me she is fine with the dressing and since I already have a female body hrt is a deal breaker,I'm fine with that for she lets me dress whenever I want around the house. I look weird at times for I keep facial hair for a disguise so people can still think I'm male,besides my wife likes it and even allows me to full shave time to time,she has told me she married a man and I tell her she married me,and I try to be the best me I can be.
I had been married for 33 years before I even suspected that I'm trans. Like many late transitioners I fought what I knew tooth and nail until I gave in and accepted it. I then took a month with my therapist trying to figure out how I was going to tell Sweetie. Despite that she was angry that I didn't tell her the minute I suspected. We owe our spouses truth, but we don't owe them wild speculation.
Quote from: Dee Marshall on May 13, 2016, 11:02:28 AM
I had been married for 33 years before I even suspected that I'm trans. Like many late transitioners I fought what I knew tooth and nail until I gave in and accepted it. I then took a month with my therapist trying to figure out how I was going to tell Sweetie. Despite that she was angry that I didn't tell her the minute I suspected. We owe our spouses truth, but we don't owe them wild speculation.
Leaning and self acceptance do not happen over night. You note the reality many of us share with a lifetime of denial and repression. The very word "transgender" was not coined until 1965 and some of us had a different learning curve after that.
Gendermutt, I agree with every word of that.
- You can have your own values (I too rate honesty highly) and not have to judge a friend who doesn't live those values the way you would. Especially when it is something as murky as love. There is a difference between giving them a quiet warning about how you see this ending, and rejecting them and insulting them behind their back for not making the same decision you would.
- Trans people are just humans too. This seems to be about a PERSON being dishonest more than a transgender person being dishonest. Plenty of cisgender people are dishonest too. We don't have a monopoly on that.
- A marriage is a complex thing and it really means different things to different people. I'm careful about judging people who have lived a life I couldn't possibly empathise with. Every person is a product of their own experiences.
You write really well Gendermutt.
Quote from: Serenation on May 13, 2016, 04:13:21 AM
Need to have balanced hormones, killing your T without something to replace it is not an ideal long term solution.
Hi Serenation,
Yes you're very right. KayXO has explained this to me a few times. I've been on Spiro for about 7 months now. I'm not really thinking long term. I'm just trying to get through the next few months. I'm hoping to figure something out before this goes on for too much longer but so far no real ideas.
Thanks for the concern,
Paige :)
Quote from: stephaniec on May 12, 2016, 05:07:05 PM
I don't think it should be looked at as a transgender thing , I think it's a human thing , honesty should always be the best policy.
Agreed. I feel we should look at it in the context and not in literal terms. To many of us love is precious and we innately want to preserve and protect what we have. Fear of losing that love is clearly a real perceived threat to your friend and that is something you need to acknowledge. While I do believe honesty is ideal, at times the emotional state and insecurity of the person requires more time than others to openly express that sentiment.
In my life's experiences no matter what you do in life it may cause hurtful feelings in the persons we are closest to. And no matter what decisions we make we wind up in the same place. If I had transitioned earlier in my married life maybe my marriage would have ended and I would have had a better ideas why it ended. But, I didn't and my marriage ended anyway just because my wife wanted to end it. She was bitter and not wanting to add to the bitterness and because all but one of my kids were adults, I didn't make custody and issue, and besides I felt that my daughter needed her mother because her mother placed work above family, I had been her primary caregiver for six years before and expressing my bitterness would just have made things worse. But, there was anger and bitterness anyway because I didn't make the fuss. Life is what it is, and sometimes second guessing doesn't make it any better.
We transition because we must and our spouses are with us for their own personal reasons, some of which we might never know. They may be purely selfish. But, giving up being yourself, just so other's can be themselves may self-defeating because when they no longer want us to be part of their lives, they are gone, and we are still our own messed up selves with issues that are even more difficult to deal with.
If your spouse really loves you for the person that you are, and you are important to them, they may stick around in all sorts of difficulties, but if they only love you for what they want you to be, because you are trans, chances are it will fall apart.
As far as children go, your children want and need you to accept them for who they are. Your children should be just as respectful of you. Having been full-time female, no hormones or surgery, the past eight years with five kids in my second family from 13 to 26 I am always totally surprised with all the comings and goings of their friends, and boyfriends, and girlfriends and neighborhood friends and school activities how much being a female father is a very small issue. I am only the female father to one of the kids, the thirteen-year-old boy. The other four kids are my cis female partner's kids.
And it may be true with your spouse that in not dealing with your trans issues, there may well be other issues you are not dealing with that could tear your marriage apart. Looking back at my life and my alcoholic parents I often wonder why some couples spend a whole lifetime together and other's don't.
Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
I know my wife has basically said if I start E, our relationship is over. We've been married for close to 30 years. She's known almost from the start that I've been battling this. She has refused to go to a therapists as a couple or by herself. She doesn't want to talk about anything transgender. So I'm struggling with my dysphoria taking spiro. It sort of helps but not much. I'm between a rock and a hard place. Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage? Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.
I'm sure the answer is easier for some, but I have no clue what to do. Perhaps my example shows that it might not be as black and white as you think.
I got into a situation a couple of years ago and my therapist gave me some great advice. I was seriously depressed and beginning to become dysfunctional. I was already on low dose HRT, but trying not to go any further in due to family responsibilities. I was becoming incapable of being a decent parent, or even human being, due to stress and depression, and its was also beginning to effect my work.
So my therapist suggest to me that being divorced is not the worst thing that can happen, and there's so much truth in that. I'm not much good to my family if I'm dead, or a terrible parent. They would be better off without me, or at least helping from a distance. I could be happier too, but I wasn't so much concerned about that.
It may be too early for you to tell here you're headed at the moment, or unable to face where that may be. But try to think where you'll be in 5 or 10 years, and you might be able to save everyone a lot of suffering, including yourself.
Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 07:33:21 PM
After 30 years of living with someone, you have a pretty good idea if the other person is bluffing. Unfortunately my wife is very stubborn and I really don't doubt for a minute that she'll walk away.
Yes indeed - a horrible dilemma I know - but of course that was the point of my comment... Its a clear choice. You just have to decide which way you go, "do or do not" because in reality there isnt a third option on the table... and thats where I percieve that a lot of people get lost... because they try all sorts of dodges to convince themselves that they can manuafacture a compromise, and the reality is that experience of just about every darn person who has trodden this road shows that one simply can't. The resultant of the attempt to find middle ground is always two ongoingly unhappy people - where making the clear choice leads to just one - who will then hopefully get over it and eventually either surprise you by coming round, or will move on with their life.
Either way in the long term you both end up with a solution, whereas trying to hedge the issue just leads to never-ending frustration for two. Not a great basis for a happy relationship I fear. Morelike a situation where you both act as each others jailer preventing the other from taking the steps that they need to take to fnd fulfillment.
I do wish you good luck - but remember you may not have asked for this, but it is the life you were given, and you have to lead it in the best possible way.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 14, 2016, 02:21:16 AM
So my therapist suggest to me that being divorced is not the worst thing that can happen, and there's so much truth in that. I'm not much good to my family if I'm dead, or a terrible parent. They would be better off without me, or at least helping from a distance. I could be happier too, but I wasn't so much concerned about that.
It may be too early for you to tell here you're headed at the moment, or unable to face where that may be. But try to think where you'll be in 5 or 10 years, and you might be able to save everyone a lot of suffering, including yourself.
Hi AnonyMs,
Thanks for the kind remarks. I'm not really sure why getting divorced seems so difficult for me. I do love my wife and family but I think there's more to it than that.
Surprisingly very few people we associate with have gotten divorced. Our parents didn't divorce. None of our siblings have gotten divorced. Very few people I've worked with over the years have gotten divorced. I'm not sure why this is. In Canada, where I'm from, 41% of marriages aren't suppose to last 30 years. That's not my experience at all. Maybe this is one of the reasons divorce seems so foreign to me.
On the other side of this, I'm not really sure I can pull off transition even though I've dreamed of it my whole life. If I didn't worry so much about what others think of me, it would probably be easier. The nastiness in the media isn't helping. I went to a transgender group for 4 months last Fall, and I just felt like an outsider. The group was dominated by young transpeople so that probably had something to do with it but it still made me feel very awkward. My two therapists haven't really helped build my courage to do this either. So to me, I'm not sure I can successfully take the plunge.
That's why I'm trying to find an in between solution with spiro and possibly low dose E.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on May 14, 2016, 02:44:11 AM
Either way in the long term you both end up with a solution, whereas trying to hedge the issue just leads to never-ending frustration for two. Not a great basis for a happy relationship I fear. Morelike a situation where you both act as each others jailer preventing the other from taking the steps that they need to take to fnd fulfillment.
I do wish you good luck - but remember you may not have asked for this, but it is the life you were given, and you have to lead it in the best possible way.
Hi Rejennyrated,
Thanks for your comment. The thing is my wife is quite happy with the status quo. We could have more money, but she still likes her life with me quite a bit even with me being trans. She just doesn't want to deal with this. Having alcoholic parents made her very good at denial.
I'm still functional, even though this tears at me every day. I often tell myself I've been doing this for 50+ years, why shouldn't I be able to continue this way. Perhaps in the next few years a magical solution will appear, until then I will muddle through.
Take care,
Paige :)
I agree with Stephaniec. Doesn't matter who it is. We should all be honest with each other
Quote from: Paige on May 16, 2016, 09:37:24 AM
I'm not really sure why getting divorced seems so difficult for me. I do love my wife and family but I think there's more to it than that.
...
That's why I'm trying to find an in between solution with spiro and possibly low dose E.
...
The thing is my wife is quite happy with the status quo.
...
I'm still functional, even though this tears at me every day.
Divorce seems very difficult for me as well, which is one of the reasons I'm doing to so much to avoid it. My wife also seems ok with the status quo, so no social and she'll put up with the rest. Not sure what would happen if I did that, but I've other reasons not to.
I did low dose for years, then a couple of years ago started a full transitioning dose when I started to crack. That fixed me up, and I can still hide the changes. I decided to get SRS if I need to, still not transitioning. Whatever it takes to keep sane. After that though there's nothing much else I could do without being outed. I'll settle for pushing that into the future as long I can.
I've managed to drag it out 8 years or so now. I was functional at the start, then close to non-functional for a while. Functional again, but no telling how long that will last. It does seem to get worse as time goes by, and only steps towards transition help. I don't really think its an ideal way to go about things, but I feel I'm at a point where there's no good options, only least bad.
Apart from the odd way I'm going about it all, I'm not sure I'm very typical of trans people. I don't mean I'm not the standard trans narrative, which I'm not, but I feel different to most people I read about. It doesn't bother me, just be careful how you interpret my experience.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 16, 2016, 11:05:48 AM
I was functional at the start, then close to non-functional for a while. Functional again, but no telling how long that will last. It does seem to get worse as time goes by, and only steps towards transition help. I don't really think its an ideal way to go about things, but I feel I'm at a point where there's no good options, only least bad.
Yes that's exactly how it seems to me too. The little steps forward seem to really help but eventually they aren't enough and you yearn to do more. I may want low E now but I do not think that will settle things. It will hopefully give me time. Spiro has given me about 8 months. Eventually I'll want to up the E dose like many others have.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 16, 2016, 11:05:48 AM
I've managed to drag it out 8 years or so now. I was functional at the start, then close to non-functional for a while. Functional again, but no telling how long that will last. It does seem to get worse as time goes by, and only steps towards transition help. I don't really think its an ideal way to go about things, but I feel I'm at a point where there's no good options, only least bad.
Apart from the odd way I'm going about it all, I'm not sure I'm very typical of trans people. I don't mean I'm not the standard trans narrative, which I'm not, but I feel different to most people I read about. It doesn't bother me, just be careful how you interpret my experience.
I don't think being typical is always helpful. We're all very different and it helps to know that there could be other ways of approaching this. Yours seem to be exactly the path that I'm heading down for better or worse.
Thanks AnonyMs, this has been very helpful.
Paige :)
Quote from: Magicka on May 12, 2016, 11:39:15 PM
I definitely can see why your annoyed with that person tc. Trans people need to quite getting with someone and making that person believe they will always be the same person they fell in love with ie a male will always be his wives husband why expect anything else. Then out of nowhere he says I want to be a woman now or I have always been a woman and start transitioning confusing his kids and his wife. Expecting them to just be happy for his self realization and be chipper about it. It don't work that way and should not be expected to at any rate. If one feels like they should be the opposite gender than they should do something about before entering a ltr and having kids that already know you as one thing.
I find that kind of harsh. Sometimes it takes a long time for a trans person to realise what is going on. In the meantime, life happens. Sometimes you realise it, but convince yourself that you can change if you just love the other person enough. In the meantime, life happens. No, obviously, you can't expect the other person to be thrilled for you - but being in a relationship and coming to the realisation that you have to do something doesn't make you bad person, either.
I do agree that secrecy in a relationship is asking for trouble, and no one is obliged to stay married to or have sex with anyone that they don't want to, but they also don't have the right to control someone else's body, no matter how long they've been involved with it
Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on May 16, 2016, 12:40:54 PM
I find that kind of harsh. Sometimes it takes a long time for a trans person to realise what is going on. In the meantime, life happens. Sometimes you realise it, but convince yourself that you can change if you just love the other person enough. In the meantime, life happens. No, obviously, you can't expect the other person to be thrilled for you - but being in a relationship and coming to the realisation that you have to do something doesn't make you bad person, either.
I agree with you. I'm not defending dishonesty but i completely agree. Also it is entirely unreasonable to marry someone and expect that they will not change and come to greater self-realization. People sometimes have no idea what is going on within themselves and often do have the time or resources to figure it out effectively. Life happens.
I was married for over 30 years and in a relationship for the past 13 years. I grew up in a family who invited Johnny Walker, Jack Daniels, and Bud Weiser into our house as permanent family members. Home was kind of an emotional earthquake zone where my mother's emotions ruled the roost.
From my experience relationships are an emotional tug of war between two individuals over whose needs are going to be met. If one person, sacrifices their emotional needs so that the other person's emotional needs are always met, then that person becomes selfish and bitter if their needs are not met. This also happens to the person who always sacrifices.
It is unrealistic when you are in a long term relationship that neither of you will be the same person that you were when the relationship started. For one thing, you are going to age, and your relationship will have to adapt to the addition of other little egos, your children who are also going to insist that they have the right to change, but you do not.
No relationship can remain static. When one person claims the right change for themselves but wants the other to stay the same as when they first met, this creates an imbalance in the relationship. When you do change you need to take into an account the other person's feelings.
Now if one person tends to keep their feelings private, as my ex did, and only display the edited feelings, then sooner or later the relationship may end like mind did because she didn't want to live with me any more, for her private feelings and their was nothing I could do about.
So it really comes down to the state of your relationship with your wife. Is there room for each of you to emotionally change without giving the other ultimatums. Is there understanding of the other's need? Are both of you willing to make changes which may result in altering the way you see each other? Or must it be my way or no way on both sides.
When you are transgender you know you will have to change and become your true gender. Then deciding your lifestyle in that gender is a matter of choice. In becoming your male or female self how will you adapt to meet the emotional needs of your spouce. And what changes will she make to accept you.
Without flexibilty your relationship becomes brittle and breaks. It is beyond me how some couples stay together inspite of what are unsermountable obsticles while others fall apart.
I think that both partners have to have commitment to the relationship for some reason and when one or neither is committed then it falls apart.
When my ex-left me, I started transitioning in private because I had my home to myself. I was a school teacher and had five children of which four of them were adults. Rather than transition in the privacy of my own imagination I found a cis woman, who accepted my femininity but not quite the same way that did. She had children and we had one. When I turned 62 and was retired by the Bush Recession and the lack of work I went full time in the context of elementary, middle school, high school, and adult children in my house and my whole past on social media.
Fort he past 8 years I have lived full time and accept the fact that while I am a woman, my partner sees me as a male who dresses as one, and the world sees me as granny, my spouse as my daughter, and the children as my grand kids. That is those who are not familiar with my family. Those who are know that I am a female who has fathered a child and I don't get into anything else.
The point being that you will probably work it out until you don't. Then if she accepts your feminine side and that you will be feminine in public and at home. You know that you are a woman, how she sees you is her business.
I haven't worked out physical transition which I will face when medicare helps pay for my transitioning. I also live over 1000 miles from my past life, so those people knee me in my butch mode don't have to deal with me on a day today basis and neither do my birth family that are still living.
So how I have transitioned may be totally irrelevant to many of you.
Wow, this thread hits so close to home.
For me, maintaining a healthy marriage is easily the hardest part of being trans, and for me, it comes down to transparency.
There is always the balance between complete, detailed transparency and not thrashing the relationship with every thought I have on the matter, many of which don't result in any action.
I never hold back permanently - the place where I stumble is deciding when to include my partner in what I'm thinking or what's happening. I typically wait just a little too long.
Most of my wife's negative feelings around this stem from the way she finds things out, not what's actually going on.
The last time we talked about any trans things, she made it clear she wants me to compartmentalize, which makes it hard to know what to share or when.
Maybe I'm rationalizing, but this isn't a simple black-or-white problem.
Reasons why I have trouble being transparent after realizing that I am trans 3 years ago:
1: My wife/Family/Pastor/Church is completely opposed to it
2: The amount of hurt that deciding to transition can cause and the number of people that it would negatively affect.
3. The amount of loss that I would feel. Loss of family, loss of a home, loss of care and love
4. Being alone.
I made the determination to transition a few months ago, and had to leave my home. It lasted 2 days. I could not handle life alone. So I returned, leaving my trans life behind (But how do you do that? I can't do that) :( :'(
Being a foster/adoptive parent, I have helped kids that have experienced great loss and hurt. I have seen their tears at the thought of losing their Dad. They finally transition from using my first name to calling me "Dad", and that is a difficult and big step for them. They finally have a stable family to trust in, and it could all fall apart. One more day with them and with my wife - it is good, but holding back my desire to transition is really difficult. I hurt. I hurt every day.
Quote from: TessaLee on May 18, 2016, 07:16:37 AM
Reasons why I have trouble being transparent after realizing that I am trans 3 years ago:
1: My wife/Family/Pastor/Church is completely opposed to it
2: The amount of hurt that deciding to transition can cause and the number of people that it would negatively affect.
3. The amount of loss that I would feel. Loss of family, loss of a home, loss of care and love
4. Being alone.
I made the determination to transition a few months ago, and had to leave my home. It lasted 2 days. I could not handle life alone. So I returned, leaving my trans life behind (But how do you do that? I can't do that) :( :'(
Quote from: TessaLee on May 18, 2016, 07:30:14 AM
Being a foster/adoptive parent, I have helped kids that have experienced great loss and hurt. I have seen their tears at the thought of losing their Dad. They finally transition from using my first name to calling me "Dad", and that is a difficult and big step for them. They finally have a stable family to trust in, and it could all fall apart. One more day with them and with my wife - it is good, but holding back my desire to transition is really difficult. I hurt. I hurt every day.
Hi TessaLee,
I think your comments demonstrate why "honesty is the best policy" is not as easy as some maintain or necessarily the right course of action. It could bring a lot of pain to others. In an utopian world I'm sure everything would just work out with 100% honesty but in the real world people can get hurt with honesty too.
In those two days did you tell your wife?
Sorry to hear about your struggles.
Paige :)
Hi Paige,
Have been reading your posts on this subject and I agree with you. If only things could be so black and white for everyone there would be no shade of grey would there? I posted earlier on this thread what I went through with my wife when I came out to her a year ago. Since then we live our lives with the subject not being discussed but my dysphoria has reached the point where I finally seen my doctor yesterday and came out to her. I am hoping like you that low dosage e and spiro will be the answer to the dysphoria. My hope is that after 4-6 months I can make a better decision on how to proceed. Like you after investing in so many years of marriage it may be easy for some to walk away but I know that I cannot make that statement. Hugs
Denni
Couples therapy was made for changes like this. Honesty is the best thing for sure, measured out against the consequences which many of you have talked about.
Time and time again on these and other forums the subject of "pastors and churches" comes with regard to staying in the closet. I'm in no way anti-religion (i'm a christian), but that angers me every time i hear it. If your faith cannot support you, i would suggest you absolutely attend a church that is not showing love and therefor way out of alignment with doctrine and it is time to change. Faith that exists to keep people in line, is really no faith at all.
Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
I really like that Devlyn.
Nicole, I feel we really don't have enough information to judge.
I know my wife has basically said if I start E, our relationship is over. We've been married for close to 30 years. She's known almost from the start that I've been battling this. She has refused to go to a therapists as a couple or by herself. She doesn't want to talk about anything transgender. So I'm struggling with my dysphoria taking spiro. It sort of helps but not much. I'm between a rock and a hard place. Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage? Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.
I'm sure the answer is easier for some, but I have no clue what to do. Perhaps my example shows that it might not be as black and white as you think.
Take care,
Paige :)
Paige, if you decide to start low dose E in secret I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. As they say, don't give orders you know won't/ can't be followed. I assume the same holds true for ultimatums. It's definitely a moral gray area, made all the more complicated by intentions.
Quote from: RobynD on May 18, 2016, 09:26:37 AM
Couples therapy was made for changes like this. Honesty is the best thing for sure, measured out against the consequences which many of you have talked about.
Time and time again on these and other forums the subject of "pastors and churches" comes with regard to staying in the closet. I'm in no way anti-religion (i'm a christian), but that angers me every time i hear it. If your faith cannot support you, i would suggest you absolutely attend a church that is not showing love and therefor way out of alignment with doctrine and it is time to change. Faith that exists to keep people in line, is really no faith at all.
Hi RobynD,
Wish I could go to couples therapy with my wife but as I said in a previous post my wife doesn't want therapy of any kind and doesn't want to talk about me being transgender.
Also I should point out that for me it has nothing to do with religion. I'm an atheist and so is my wife. We are a very liberal family for the most part.
Take care,
Paige :)
Quote from: Newfie on May 18, 2016, 11:20:42 AM
Paige, if you decide to start low dose E in secret I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. As they say, don't give orders you know won't/ can't be followed. I assume the same holds true for ultimatums. It's definitely a moral gray area, made all the more complicated by intentions.
Thanks Newfie for the support. I'll probably tell her if I do decide to take low dose E. She won't be supportive, she'll assume this is just another step down the path, which I'm not sure about at all. She stop wearing her wedding ring about 6 months ago, so I'm guessing we'll be talking divorce again.
Take care,
Paige :)
Most everyone is like that early on, especially with online support, which can really screw some people up early on. I think some people, especially with separate boards, imagine stratification that isn't there. They see post op transsexuals as the top of the validity ladder and internalized pressure to reach that value and validity form. Some start to convince themselves they're something they may or may not be. If you combine that with so many fairy tale pie in the sky transition stories we've all read, they start to see unconditional love that in most marriages simply isn't there. When I came out to everyone I know and my university it wasn't something I chose, it was because I ran out of choices and had no choice. It doesn't become life or death for everyone, but for some of it does, and you move forward without trepidation because you've accepted the probability of loss. You've seen and read about it over and over. You don't want loss, but you're willing to lose in order to have a chance at an actual identity and not living as a fraud. Some people make it work and plot out coming out and transition like a house remodel, but recent come outs should expect that to be improbable. The point is they're under pressure. They're my trans brothers and sisters, and I feel bad for them, but I've seen so many be overwhelmed early on, and sometimes in that state they say things that might be conjured up to fit in. They have to step back from peers and indirect influence at some point and think. In 15 years or so of online trans chats and boards I've seen too many people grenade their careers, their family, ending up bad, because they were determined to be something they weren't.
Quote from: Nicole on May 12, 2016, 05:33:15 AM
I write this knowing it may upset a few, so sorry if it does, send me a PM telling me what a a-hole I am but let's try to keep the conversation on topic..
Maybe it's been that long since I transitioned, maybe I'm out of touch, but something popped up on my Facebook feed the other night and I bit.
It was a pre-out person venting how she hasn't told her wife that she has been on hormones for a few months and she's worried that when she tells her their marriage will be over.
I reiled that her wife would be more likely to leave for not telling her the truth than for being transgendered and she bit my head off.
Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?
I get what you're saying, here's how things worked for me.
I was 40+ when I realized I was trans and started my current and primary relationship as trans and out with all my friends my partner from day one. It took some time to realize I might need to pursue transitioning and when I talked to my partner along those lines her response was always quite negative -- which didn't make much sense to me as I've only ever presented as femme sexually.
Fast fwd 16 years and I'd decided I need to start HRT -- realizing that dysphoria is a key element in long term depression that I could not continue to ignore. For better or worse my partner's feelings had been an element of my decision not to carry transition past dressing femme.
The decision came along with a lot of other difficulties, career change etc and I was pretty sure what her response would be and wasn't prepared to be dealing with her negative feelings at the same time as I was needing to assess the effects of estrogen.
Thus I chose to continue a transition dose for about 6 weeks before bringing it up. Keeping it secret sucked to be sure, not being able to talk to my very best friend about how it all felt was not ideal. I did talk with some trans friends and one guy I rely on for his very balanced views. What I did do was drop a few hints and started dressing a bit more femme in daily life.
When I did talk to her about it I was certain I was happy with the results and I presented it as if I was preparing to start, visible effects were still minimal and unfortunately her responses initially were every bit as negative as I'd expected, worse even in that she played the "I've been accommodating your trans-ness all along" card (distinctly at odds with our daily interaction where she usually volunteers that she likes my femme nature).
Again ffwd to today, things settled within a couple of days and we're able to share feelings about being female in ways that are new and positive. I believe a big part of her discomfort was - and probably still is - social awkwardness and I'm doing everything I can to minimize that. To be sure she is also quite attached to me being male sexually and while I'm not wild about that as a role, I'm glad to still be able to make her happy.
So I would not do anything differently. It was an experiment that's on-going and adding the variable of relationship angst would have made it hard to evaluate.
And to be 100% honest I don't have a lot of sympathy for the elements of her response that i take for transphobic.
So done and acting on plans for GRS which I may never get to but I'm jumping thru the WPATH hoops to be sure it's an option if I choose it to be.
Now I can see both sides here a bit, but if it were down to me, I would tell them BEFORE I did anything, but sometimes (more often than not) fear overules a lot of peoples decisions. Fear of loss, rejection, hate, ridicule, all the knock on effects this could have. Its understandable that sadly, many people arent as brave in the face of difficult decisions.
To take a non trans example, someone I was dating for a while wasnt feeling the same way as I was, but didnt know how to break up with me, so they panicked and went off seeing someone else before telling me. This went on for a while and I found out before they told me. They were upset that they hurt me but didnt want to hurt me to my face by telling me. Thing is, that caused me even more hurt, and I refused their request to still be friends after (I was hurting pretty bad).
Now in hindsight, whle I dont like their methodology and how it hurt my trust, I can see why they did that. Fear, again. Thing is, fear often makes us make rash decisions. It's a difficult balance
Quote from: jaybutterfly on May 19, 2016, 07:20:43 AM
Now I can see both sides here a bit
Now in hindsight, whle I dont like their methodology and how it hurt my trust, I can see why they did that. Fear, again. Thing is, fear often makes us make rash decisions. It's a difficult balance
"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself" Roosevelt 1933 :)
My kids are growing up. One is getting married. One left home (she is 18). I have come to grips with the idea of rejection and divorce, and I believe I can finally be transparent with my wife and kids. My daughter that is engaged, told me almost a year ago that she would disown me if I were to pursue transitioning. My wife (who has known about my struggles since 2013) will not tolerate my transitioning. She has many friends and religious folk that will encourage separation and divorce. We love each other very much, and have been married for over 25 years. It will be very difficult for both of us, but I feel the timing to be much better than when I posted a few months ago about staying in the closet because it was in the best interest for my wife and kids. Mentally, I was not ready to accept the full reality of who I am and all of the ramifications of that fact.
I've come to find that the elephant in the room is that we are not really allowed (by each other, mostly) to pass any judgement on any trans person for their selfish or self involved proclivities. Can't actually even refer to it for the most part. Oh...we can skirt the issue in the abstract, but pointed insinuation, even in the constructive and you will find yourself being admonished. So on one level, I find threads like these rather pointless. Either you veil everything in sympathethic and empathetic hyperbole, or you risk being (well....pick one of the following).....vilified, castigated reprimanded, rebuked, admonished, chastised, chided, censured, upbraided, reproved, reproached, scolded and then banned and bounced out the cyber door. :laugh:. So I've learned to let all this stuff be. I think it's a shame that message boards are censored this way. On the other hand, trolls destroy meaningful conversation for us all. So at no risk of anything, I'll reserve my opinion and be my own :police:
I see nothing selfish in taking medication prescribed by a doctor.
Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 10, 2016, 03:04:59 PM
I see nothing selfish in taking medication prescribed by a doctor.
Simple truth
hmmmmmm....I thought the selfishness alluded to in this thread was regarding lying to a spouse, not prescribed medication. Particularly of note when that lie could easily culminate in the end of that relationship. Those particular medications change paradigms and perspectives as well as certain aspects of physical performance. They certainly did with me. All very important things in the type of relationship being referred to here.
The OP didn't say anything about anybody lying to anyone.
Well that's the problem with entering an oppressive control based institution like marriage.
People change. Inevitably. That's why over half of all marriages divorce and the other half are pretty much miserable, frustrated or bored.
Quote from: Deborah on October 10, 2016, 05:52:25 PM
The OP didn't say anything about anybody lying to anyone.
Hi Deborah,
I kept my transsexuality a secret from my wife for over 30 years. I considered myself lying to her by omission. Much like the OP's subject regarding the person she was interacting with. So semantically speaking, that's what I meant.
I kept mine secret too. Mainly because I believed the foolishness that God would fix it if I believed hard enough. Regardless, I'm not sure that qualifies as a lie, particularly if one believes they can beat it.
Anyway, I have come to view all of this differently. We are not guilty of any transgression simply for being born in a society that deliberately goes out of their way to demonize us at every step and poison others' minds against us and our own minds against ourselves.
Getting medical treatment for a recognized condition is not a sin. Abandoning one's spouse for seeking medical treatment is a sin against the marriage vows themselves. The fact that we internalize this guilt and think we are doing something wrong is the real problem.
I've spent most of my life putting others before myself to the point where I managed to significantly damage myself. As selfish as it may sound to some, I need to consider my own needs in this as well as the needs of my family and friends.
Perhaps I could have stopped lying about what I really am if I had known what I really am back when I was a child. Instead, I was 'corrected' with a yardstick to the wrist when I expressed a desire to be something other than a boy. I was counseled by a priest on my 'perversion', and I had a professional witch doctor recommend electroconvulsive therapy and aversion therapy, methods we now know would just condition me to insist on the Big Lie about what I really am. (Mom saved me from that last. I just got T injections and religious guidance...)
I know without question that a huge factor in my current functioning is hope; hope for a better life for myself; hope that I can finally be at peace with myself; hope that I can live as myself. These things make others uncomfortable with me. Many folks close to me cannot stand the thought of my changing in any way; they are comfortable with the artificial persona I have hidden behind for decades. They like the Bg Lie. For my own well-being and sanity, I must dismantle that artifice and live as myself.
So, I can meet the expectations of others, maintain that artificial persona and continue the Big Lie, and condemn myself to live with suicidal depression, or as a drugged-out zombie if I could find a suitably unethical psych doc. Or, I can do what a doctor and gender specialist have recommended, dismantling that persona and living as my authentic self, while disappointing others around me who 'love' that persona and don't want to see me.
Should I engage in such self-sacrifice, continue the Big Lie to please people who I already know love an artifice and cannot accept who I really am? Should I be my authentic self, and while knowing the immense cost in terms of losing everyone, live my life, and move forward to meet new people, form new friendships, and perhaps build a new family, all accepting me for what I actually am, here at the end of my life?
There are those who would promise me that all I have to do is continue my self-sacrifice until death, that is, continue my Big Lie, and some bearded old dude in the sky will refrain from throwing me into a flaming pit as my big reward. Yeah. Prove it.
I've made my choice.
Quote from: jentay1367 on October 10, 2016, 05:29:25 PM
hmmmmmm....I thought the selfishness alluded to in this thread was regarding lying to a spouse, not prescribed medication. Particularly of note when that lie could easily culminate in the end of that relationship. Those particular medications change paradigms and perspectives as well as certain aspects of physical performance. They certainly did with me. All very important things in the type of relationship being referred to here.
The initial post had to do with someone being on HRT and if the spouse found out, she would get angry. The posting person rhetorically asked why trans people lie?
Maybe the spouse got the hormones on-line or in the graymarket, but usually ones gets them through an Rx, hence from a healthcare practitioner. The only person she was lying to was herself because she denied herself HRT. Isn't this the old "you have to tell the guy" argument all over again: better you find out before than later that he doesn't like transitioners. In this case the person finds out the wife doesn't like the trans person and demands they stop medical treatment.
I won't go into "why didn't you tell the people you dated" before you were married. Some do. But we are here now. Blech! Easier said than done, but to a person who says, "if you get treatment, I'll leave!" the "correct" (life affirming) answer is "don't let the door hit you in the a**."
Yes. Our life is not so much long and eternal to continue the Big Lie.
barbie~~
Quote from: Deborah on October 10, 2016, 06:24:20 PM
I kept mine secret too. Mainly because I believed the foolishness that God would fix it if I believed hard enough. Regardless, I'm not sure that qualifies as a lie, particularly if one believes they can beat it.
Anyway, I have come to view all of this differently. We are not guilty of any transgression simply for being born in a society that deliberately goes out of their way to demonize us at every step and poison others' minds against us and our own minds against ourselves.
Getting medical treatment for a recognized condition is not a sin. Abandoning one's spouse for seeking medical treatment is a sin against the marriage vows themselves. The fact that we internalize this guilt and think we are doing something wrong is the real problem.
One thing some people do is disclose prior to marriage. "I believe I am trans and plan to transition."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.festivalmarginal.com.br%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2Fgay3.jpg&hash=71e46ab28350c04ac79c4157444ca44b558d5dc5)
A case where an MTF trans person married another (cis) woman. This is one time where I think disclosure is helpful. You might find the love of your life straightaway.
All my life, since I was a kid, I have been fighting GD, thinking it was bad and that I was a sicko. I did my best to hide it from people and I never told anyone.
After I had been married for about 5 or 6 years, after much soul searching and discussions on forums like this one, I decided that I needed to come clean with my wife. When I told her, she seemed receptive and asked to see me dressed. When she saw me she freaked out and spent the next few hours screaming and yelling and generally reinforcing my negative feelings about myself. My self esteem was already pretty low and I went back into the closet. I continued to live the lie for another 20 years after that. My wife became emotionally abusive and I started having suicidal thoughts.
I had to go behind my wife's back to get into therapy, another lie. My therapist helped me to see that enough was enough. I am doing everything I can to get out of this abusive situation. I live alone now and am able to dress full-time. Once my divorce is final and I know more about where I stand financially I will seek help in fully transitioning.
The only time I've ever been as happy as I am now was when I was a preteen and used to go to the mall in girl clothes when my parents weren't around.
I'm guilty of lies like all people are in every single relationship, but i never once lied to my spouse about my GD, as soon as i knew what it was and what i suspected, i let her know. She knew i was feminine as a friend long before we dated. I got married with stockings, a garter belt and panties under my tux.
Still, not everyone comes to the realization the same. As a matter of fact, we all sort of do it differently and some of us lie to ourselves first, so how can we be honest with anyone, if we are lying to ourselves?
I'm sorry but i bristle at spouses accusing people with GD of deception. Certainly it exists i'm sure, but it also is a false accusation in my instances. My spouse never accused me of it, her only disappointment was that more information did not exist on it 20 yrs ago, I agree with her.
I guess I deceived my wife. I was in denial for many years and only recently realized if I didn't confront this thing it would be the end of me. Someone said in a thread I was reading that the first transphobe you need to confront is yourself. Lightbulbs came on and it was epiphany time for me. That has been a watershed for me because I realized finally that until I accepted myself, I was doomed to a live an existence of hating myself. So I've come out and my wife is doing her very best to understand me. Some days suck. But I always want to find a way for us to work this out together. Without her, my journey simply wouldn't be as wonderful as it's been. So I make concessions. And I always gut check myself to make sure I am being honest with her..and me. Otherwise, what's the point? Being your authentic self rocks. When you can do it with someone you love....it super rocks! I am a very lucky girl! !
Hi Nicole,
First off, I agree with you yet at the same time realize that there are some who are in such fear that this keeps them in the closet rather than risk losing what they have. No matter they should if humanly possible make every effort to make a disclosure to their partner.
I've noticed a fair amount of people in this position think only of "me" and not what they are doing now and in the long run to their partner and family.
There are many factors that can sway how the outcome will go if done properly but first that person needs to think about who they may possibly hurt.
In recent months I've met two married transgender people, one in their early thirties, disclosed their transgender side on their first date. They are now married with one child and is allowed to go out dressed with a transgender group. The other, just under 80, came out to the family, had a difficult time because this person was trans all their life and married for thirty years but after working with their spouse they are still married.
I applaud how the younger one realized up front if the relationship would even start full disclosure was needed. I think this is not the norm and only with education, putting others first will be a start to changing a transgender's attitude towards disclosing who they are rather than hiding and hoping nobody learns of their other side. Little do many realize it's like "trying to hold a beach ball underwater, eventually the beach ball wins and rises to the surface", that is how I see a true misgender person in a relationship without telling their partner.
It seems like I opened up an old wound on this forum with my post, and that was not my intent. My intent was to simply provide an update to my last post. I want to thank Deborah, Michelle, Tina, and others for your understanding. It is difficult to fight religious, spousal, and family pressures....and the guilt of feeling that I am selfish. There is hardly a selfish bone in my body. I could provide a lengthy resume of such facts. But I am now tired and drained, and in need, and my wife prohibits me from getting any help except from maybe a pastor or Christian Therapist. "Fight it! Bury it!" I've tried, and I am tired, so please let me transition in peace.
Quote from: RobynD on October 11, 2016, 12:03:50 AM
I'm guilty of lies like all people are in every single relationship, but i never once lied to my spouse about my GD, as soon as i knew what it was and what i suspected, i let her know. She knew i was feminine as a friend long before we dated. I got married with stockings, a garter belt and panties under my tux.
Still, not everyone comes to the realization the same. As a matter of fact, we all sort of do it differently and some of us lie to ourselves first, so how can we be honest with anyone, if we are lying to ourselves?
I'm sorry but i bristle at spouses accusing people with GD of deception. Certainly it exists i'm sure, but it also is a false accusation in my instances. My spouse never accused me of it, her only disappointment was that more information did not exist on it 20 yrs ago, I agree with her.
RobynD: I can identify with the tux story. If it is socially unacceptable to also wear a gown, I can at least do the next best thing when marrying another woman--especially since I have disclosed and been honest.
I, too, was raised lesbian including being socially rewarded for dating other girls, which I was not into the same way guys were. I did mess around and over time I suspected what I felt when I was with another girl was very different from what non-GID guys felt. There seemed to be a strong element of possession--a hunger onto devouring. I felt nothing like that. Is that why trans-cis women-to-woman marriages vibe so differently and why trans-women think that telling a guy about a checkered past is like telling a girl the same thing? In my limited experience guy-girl secrets are not like girl-girl secrets. The vibe's all different. The deepest intimacies are different. The guy's needs are different.
That, however, does not make woman-to-woman marriages any less valid. On the contrary. It merely reveals them for what they are. The question is, is the cis woman lesbian and there may be shame issues she has in owning up to her lesbian attractions when she's been able to sublimate them in a seemingly "straight" marriage. The spouse comes out and the chickens come home to roost.
One think I hope that the new openness around trans will allow is for more young "lesbian" MTF transitioners to do is to be honest with the girls they date. I did many things that misfired while I was transitioning, young, but I believe it was the one thing I got right. i always told the other girl when it started to get serious.
Quote from: TessaLee on October 11, 2016, 07:40:20 AM
It seems like I opened up an old wound on this forum with my post, and that was not my intent. My intent was to simply provide an update to my last post. I want to thank Deborah, Michelle, Tina, and others for your understanding. It is difficult to fight religious, spousal, and family pressures....and the guilt of feeling that I am selfish. There is hardly a selfish bone in my body. I could provide a lengthy resume of such facts. But I am now tired and drained, and in need, and my wife prohibits me from getting any help except from maybe a pastor or Christian Therapist. "Fight it! Bury it!" I've tried, and I am tired, so please let me transition in peace.
No wound opened for me. Speaking for myself, I was responding to Nicole's original post at the top of page one. A guilty verdict should include a specification of what the "crime" is and the accuser (the "victim") should not also take on the role of prosecutor, judge, and jury, which I sense happens in the cases where ultimatums are given. Personally, I'm not good with ultimatums and they make me dig my (high) heels in.
And let's take a look at the word
selfish. The accusation, if you get down to the bone is that "you are being yourself." And somehow that's a "crime?" Who else can you be? To say it again, the accusation, "you are selfish" is actually "you are trying to be yourself."
So sue me! It's who I am. Who else can I be?
The reality of some situations are that many trans women marry, bear children and then find their dysphoria has left their lives untenable. So after a time (oftentimes, many years) of lying through either untruths that are told or through omissions that are untold, the TS woman comes out to her spouse that was never made privy to the fact that the man she married, was in fact, a woman. It's hard to watch these TS women force all of this down their wives and children's throats through some strange entitlement. I certainly empathize with these TS women, they are trying to survive. But it would be insincere to say I don't also see the consternation of the wife and children caught up in this unexpected drama. Here is where the "selfishness" lies that I allude to. To expect your wife to jump on your bandwagon without reservation after years of subterfuge and secretiveness is not only deluded, but "selfish". We made our beds. Sometimes it all goes sideways and our only options are to leave the shambles of our relationships. It's all that can be done. But to not take responsibility for the devastation we've left behind in the wake of our revelation is on the very face of it, "selfish". The TS woman who informed her future spouse up front that she was a cross dresser with the possibility of perhaps having dysphoric feelings that may lead her to transition at some point is a different matter as well as the ones who unequivocally told their future wives they were trans. These women, who then extort their TS spouses and uses their children as a bargaining chip in retribution are also "selfish". She has no right to be appalled, indignant, hostile or vindictive. Yet this also happens quite often.
But we can't control the actions of others, only our own behavior. I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others. She has every right to feel betrayed, I understand this but have noticed some in our community are unable to or refuse to process this....hence, "selfish". As much as I'd love to think my journey is simply all about me and I never had a choice in how I behaved or presented is disingenuous at best and outright "selfish" at the worst. My youthful cowardice has changed another persons life and perceptions of what the last 30 years of her life meant. This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.
Best wishes to all us married girls out there for the outcome we want and most importantly, deserve.
Quote from: jentay1367 on October 11, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
The reality of some situations are that many trans women marry, bear children and then find their dysphoria has left their lives untenable. So after a time (oftentimes, many years) of lying through either untruths that are told or through omissions that are untold, the TS woman comes out to her spouse that was never made privy to the fact that the man she married, was in fact, a woman.
. . .
I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others . . . This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.
Best wishes to all us married girls out there for the outcome we want and most importantly, deserve.
Like or hate Ayn Rand (I'm in the middle) I am reminded of why her last novel was called
Atlas Shrugged.
Quote"If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders - What would you tell him?"
I...don't know. What...could he do? What would you tell him?"
"To shrug."
Atlas has the weight of the world on his shoulder--literally--and he is breaking under the load.
Rand, who lived through Red Revolution, wrote most against Communism and collectivism which, in my view, are the real targets of her barbs.
Or from Star Trek,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYvlhHPLzCA
QuoteCaptain Spock: My father says that you have been my friend. You came back for me.
Kirk: You would have done the same for me.
Captain Spock: Why would you do this?
Kirk: Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many.
Captain Spock: [begins to remember] I have been and ever shall be your friend.
Kirk: Yes. Yes, Spock.
Captain Spock: The ship... out of danger?
Kirk: You saved the ship. You saved us all. Don't you remember?
Captain Spock: Jim... your name is Jim.
Kirk: Yes.
All our lives we have worried about the needs of the many. Sometimes it is their turn to look out for the needs of the one. The one called jentay1367
I've been selfish my whole life putting others first and me second, I told my wife I was a ->-bleeped-<- the only term I knew 28 yrs ago,she was fine with that but I kept it to night clothes ,then went underground for 10 yrs til it all blew up,and i told my wife the rest of the story. I finally admitted I was transexual and actually a woman,her response was does she have a name,told her my fem name,she said she will be called Cheryl which is a play off my middle name and then she torched the closet and said no more closet and safe zone for we are going to fade this together. For 3 yrs Cheryl went out in public,shopped,went out to restaurants,then we moved to a different house and my son had friends over so I stopped dressing completely,til it got so bad I developed a sore and had to go back to panties,for 7 yrs I thought of others,then I had the house to myself for 3 weeks and I had freedom but kept it close to the vest,my wife knew what I was doing,then we moved again this time to the country and I had two spells which made me regroup and told my wife I've been so selfish to my needs by putting others in front of what I need,so I started wearing my favorite clothes at home my dresses and skirts came out of hiding. Me and my wife have an agreement which we both agree on no hrt or gcs,since I'm already feminine looking and have AA breasts I was fine with that. My wife didn't marry a woman,even though deep down she knows she did and still has problems with that,but 28yrs together and we love each other so much that it's hard for us to be apart. To me selfishness starts when you put others before you,its suppose to be 50/50 that's why it works for us,my wife bought my breast forms I use from Victoria Secret,she bought alot of my clothes and even made me a dress,in turn I spoil her rotten and take care of her needs,when my wife catches me putting others before me she jumps my arse if someone verbally attacks me she tears into them,but at times gets angry at me when I over do it and dress to much, I know she wants her husband at times and make adjustments to where she does have the man she married,this is easy to do for I have always dressed tomboyish,I even got married in jeans,dress shirt and Boots,havent worn a suit in 36 yrs I hate em. So in a relationship where one is transgender and the other hates it who is actually being selfish?
QuoteAll our lives we have worried about the needs of the many. Sometimes it is their turn to look out for the needs of the one. The one called jentay1367
Thanks for the food for thought Virginia, I always appreciate things that provoke me to go a little deeper. I definitely understand Galt and the idea that we need to take care of ourselves before others can be served, I just don't want to live in the Gulch. Rand's philosophy is one side of the coin. I align with the other. I'm going to paraphrase John Donne here to suit my needs "No Woman is an Island" ....ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for she." L.O.L.
I can certainly appreciate that we've suffered immensely to get where we are. My only hope is that we can actualize with a bare minimum of scorched earth. I want to take all I've known and everyone I've loved with me. Another form of selfishness of course, but at least there's the ring of altruism somewhere in the mix ;) add to that, it looks to be a win...win.
All the best Hon.....J
Quote from: jentay1367 on October 11, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
But we can't control the actions of others, only our own behavior. I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others. She has every right to feel betrayed, I understand this but have noticed some in our community are unable to or refuse to process this....hence, "selfish". As much as I'd love to think my journey is simply all about me and I never had a choice in how I behaved or presented is disingenuous at best and outright "selfish" at the worst. My youthful cowardice has changed another persons life and perceptions of what the last 30 years of her life meant. This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.
After working for several years to shed a LOT of the Shame and Guilt about being trans and how I handled it all, about the only shame and guilt I bear is how my deeds and my actions all affected my wife. The betrayal will never go away. All I can hope for is my now feeling free to truly express myself, my hopes, my wishes, and my dream, I can hope my wife will continue to stay on this roller-coaster
QuoteAll I can hope for is my now feeling free to truly express myself, my hopes, my wishes, and my dream, I can hope my wife will continue to stay on this roller-coaster
Hi Joanne....that, in my opinion is an awesome attitude and I agree with you 100%. Now she gets the best of as well as the real you. Without recrimination and finger pointing, we have hope of salvaging our relationships and our battered souls. It's what I am shooting for and I'm dead set on doing whatever is within my ability to see that outcome. Including making concessions on my path. Many of us, I think see it as impossible, but ......I'm going to quote Dr. Wayne Dyer here "you'll see it when you believe it". I'm using all the creative visualization here that I can muster to not only hang on to my love, but to see my transition in the most successful and fulfilling manifestation I can muster.
Getting to the culmination of this fantastic journey without anyone there to care for or love seems cold and pointless. I can't always control events, but to the degree I can, I'm going to give it my best shot......J
Maybe you all know a lot more Trans women than i know, but i have hardly ever seen or witnessed what is being described here in this thread, namely in a simplified way:
Trans spouse knows they are trans, understands what it is, and decides to proceed with living as their non-true selves for self preservation. That seems nothing like self-preservation. That seems like self-destruction. Even if someone decided to not transition for whatever reasons and i'm sure they have plenty of valid reasons to not do that, how could that be kept from a spouse? It seems like that would open up a whole other set of challenges.
Perhaps i am relationship naive and perhaps i am such an advocate of people in this situation, my bias is not allowing me to see clearly, but most of the stories i have read are ones were there is suspicion of gender related problems but not a full understanding of their issue. What's more i think many are guilted into believing they were being deceptive when they were nothing of the kind.
Instead, i see many spouses that simply are not supporting their trans spouse who often needs to change or die. What a wonderful choice, It is akin to "I'll leave you if you treat yourself for cancer, but if you don't i'll be extra supportive at your funeral" To me that is incredible.
But again - who knows, i may be completely missing something. I totally respect those that are saying - nope i did this, i was deceptive, everyone has a reason for being human, but i just don't see it in the relationships I've known.
Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 11, 2016, 10:18:07 AM
RobynD: I can identify with the tux story. If it is socially unacceptable to also wear a gown, I can at least do the next best thing when marrying another woman--especially since I have disclosed and been honest.
I, too, was raised lesbian including being socially rewarded for dating other girls, which I was not into the same way guys were. I did mess around and over time I suspected what I felt when I was with another girl was very different from what non-GID guys felt. There seemed to be a strong element of possession--a hunger onto devouring. I felt nothing like that. Is that why trans-cis women-to-woman marriages vibe so differently and why trans-women think that telling a guy about a checkered past is like telling a girl the same thing? In my limited experience guy-girl secrets are not like girl-girl secrets. The vibe's all different. The deepest intimacies are different. The guy's needs are different.
That, however, does not make woman-to-woman marriages any less valid. On the contrary. It merely reveals them for what they are. The question is, is the cis woman lesbian and there may be shame issues she has in owning up to her lesbian attractions when she's been able to sublimate them in a seemingly "straight" marriage. The spouse comes out and the chickens come home to roost.
One think I hope that the new openness around trans will allow is for more young "lesbian" MTF transitioners to do is to be honest with the girls they date. I did many things that misfired while I was transitioning, young, but I believe it was the one thing I got right. i always told the other girl when it started to get serious.
Totally get what you are saying. I would add too, that people do not generally marry without sexual attraction (at least in most cultures) and that really the trans person is the same person that you married, just dealing with an issue.
I agree the new openness will both take the social stigma away from supporting spouses and make it easier for spouses to find a new normal as their relationship changes.
It was less than a year after we married that I even realized I was gender dysphoric. And of course coming out rocked everything. I wanted to hold on, but *that* was ultimately the most selfish thing I did. She wasn't lesbian, and neither was I. And, as it turned out, I needed a relationship where there wasn't any disclosure -- because I had to know what it was like, and the only way to really know is to experience it.
Sometimes it's simply for the best to just let go, but it really depends on the needs of everyone concerned. If your needs align, then stay married. But neither partner should sacrifice their happiness for the other.
Think of it this way. Suppose Bob and Carol are married, and Carol realizes she's gay. She doesn't really want to have sex with Bob anymore. The best course of action is likely to divorce, so each can pursue their own happiness. Or suppose that Bob becomes a religious convert, and Carol finds it repulsive. I mean, there are all kinds of reasons why couples break up, why relationships end, why marriages end in divorce. It is common. It is nothing to be ashamed of.
Hi All,
I just don't get this ultimate betrayal stuff. We chose this route because society until very recently considered us mentally ill. Society said stick it out, don't you dare tell us who you are. If your spouse wants to blame this circumstance on someone my vote is for society.
And what's the result of this terrible betrayal? He or she has had the torture of having a happy family life for many years. So it's not working anymore, that doesn't dismiss all the good times. As was said in a previous post many people experience marital problems and divorce for all sorts of different reasons and society accepts this.
But why is our situation different? I'm guessing it's not the "lie" thing. I'm guessing some of it is that they're embarrassed for the world to know that they married a transgender person. I know a lot of married couples that aren't completely honest with their spouse but this is different. I sense a bit of transphobia in the "big lie".
Maybe I see things differently then others here who've managed to keep their relationships going. My wife has known as much as I from the first year we started living together. We thought I could beat it so we continued with the odd flair up every once and a while, but basically she's had a good life for 30 years.
Along the road, I've found out this can't be beat and it just gets worse. I'm trying to see if low dose helps now but it seems to push me further down the path.
Is this a sad thing to happen to a relationship? Definitely yes. Does the transgender person deserve to live with guilt for the rest of their life because the relationship wasn't perfect or didn't work out? Definitely not.
Take care,
Paige :)
I engaged in the Big Lie, rather than come out, for a very good reason. Back when I was 15 years old, and was being shuttled about to different witch doctors, our common issue wasn't called gender dysphoria, and the treatment wasn't therapy, HRT, and possible GRS and supporting surgeries.
It was called transvestism, now a bit of a dirty word for very good reasons. State of the art treatment for me would have been an involuntary committment, and initially electroconvulsive therapy (electrodes on the scalp, and a burst of electricity through the brain to 'calm' me by wiping a few million neurons out). Then we would have gotten to the prescribed treatment:
Quote
Behavioral Therapies
Marks and Gelder (1967) used faradic (electrical) aversion techniques to apply operant conditioning methods to circumscribed sexually deviant behaviors in carefully selected patients. They suggested that this approach might be preferable to apomorphine or emetine in that it is safer and less unpleasant. Marks and Gelder described the use of an "electric shock box" and a crude penile plethysmograph to measure autonomic responses to real or imagined cross-dressing stimuli. Uncomfortable electric shocks were delivered to the leg in an intermittent reinforcement schedule when the patient either cross-dressed or fantasized about cross-dressing topics. All five patients studied (two fetishists and three ->-bleeped-<-s), described as having "well-integrated personalities," demonstrated complete extinguishing of penile erection previously associated with cross-dressing themes after about 2 weeks of inpatient treatments. Marks and Gelder noted that fantasies and preoccupations about women's clothing items disappeared as treatment progressed, whereas fantasies about heterosexual intercourse increased. Both the patients and their spouses reported increased sexual activity with their spouses following treatment. Marks and Gelder concluded that "sexually deviant desires and practices diminished or disappeared" in all patients, but cautioned that such treatment should be used only in highly motivated patients "where no other effective treatment is available" (Marks and Gelder 1967, p. 11).
That would have fixed me right up, wouldn't it? Please bear in mind that for some of us older patients, hiding and The Big Lie were not attempts to deceive a spouse or parent. We were trying to avoid social abuse, beatings sanctioned by our religious leaders and parents, and worse, incarceration and prolonged torture until we 'got better' (at hiding our true nature from the witch doctors!) and were pronounced 'cured'.
Now, maybe some of you younger folks think I was a Bad Person for hiding what I was. To be blunt, I was hiding for my survival. Involuntary commitment was a very real thing back then. Spousal involuntary commitment was still on the books and available in some jurisdictions as recently as 30 years ago. Would you want to come out, knowing that your loving family would support you and get you the care you needed at the local mental institution?
When living in a sick, transphobic society, The Big Lie is not a horrible act of deception, but a survival tactic.
Some of would also have been immediately terminated from our jobs without recourse.
As a student, many years ago, I worked my summer vacations, as a hospital ward orderly (aka cleaner and dogs-body).
The wards I was assigned to were the secure units, for psychiatric care and the elderly. ECT was still in active use for all sorts of conditions (and probably still is). At least they had the half sense to sedate their patients, but cleaning that place was arguably the worst job I have ever done.
But enough of the tangent.
Culturally, there are many factors that mean we often are reluctant to disclose, until we are certain that we cannot go on without treatment. As we all carry different cultural contexts, one persons rational decision may differ wildly to our own.
Sno.
The term "big lie" is being tossed around, but I do not see that term being used by those of us who are suggesting that the so-called "liars" let themselves off the hook. I want to shout out. "Throw down your spoons. Stop digging. The cell doors are unlocked. Walk out into the sunlight." We live in jails of our own words, trapped in the darkness.
Please. Stop beating yourselves. This is not your fault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw)
I for one know exactly why I had to lie about my true nature in the past, and the damage that caused.
I don't do that any more.
The only problems I have with being my true self are temporary, transient things that shortly won't be affecting my life any more. They stem from our sick and transphobic culture, in the form of my spouses insecurity and transphobia. She does understand that what I'm doing is necessary for my well-being, although it upsets her quite a bit.
The parts of my life in which others cannot accept my true self are being left behind. In some ways, I'm shedding my old male persona and its social entwinements like a snake shedding its skin. Soon there will just be a bright and shiny me moving forward, and sadly, some inflexible folks clutching a dried, dissicated old snakeskin.
I understand this trans person. That is what matters most to me.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 12, 2016, 08:16:24 AM
It was less than a year after we married that I even realized I was gender dysphoric. And of course coming out rocked everything. I wanted to hold on, but *that* was ultimately the most selfish thing I did. She wasn't lesbian, and neither was I. And, as it turned out, I needed a relationship where there wasn't any disclosure -- because I had to know what it was like, and the only way to really know is to experience it.
Hmm, sounds familiar. I'm in a breakup now with my GF, with whom I've been together for the last 4,5 years. I've been on the transition train for the last two years and in the beginning we both went for it. But as time progressed we both realized we needed to be with men, but it was a bitter pill to swallow. The holding on also felt like stretching something that wasn't meant to be anymore, so here I am.... (probably) moving out in two weeks.
The thing is, being untruthful always messes things up. If you want ANY chance of holding on to your relationship, better be truthful. And if being truthful leads to a breakup, as is the case for me, then so be it. In the end it's about finding yourself and your happiness, for both you and your significant other.
Quote from: Gendermutt on May 12, 2016, 11:37:22 PM
There are always so many threads that deal with how to get our partners and family to accept us now that we have revealed ourselves. But it is the not revealing before commitment is what is really the tough part for them as well as for ourselves. Rather than a bunch of how to threads of breaking the news, and dealing with the blow back, we should be working harder at getting people to do so before the commitments we make.
.
This is a nice theory... However, I think what you will find in a lot of cases is that the initial commitment to the relationship is made *prior* to reaching a point of personal understanding and acceptance. A person cannot reveal who they really are to their potential partner if they have not come to grips with who they really are first.
If the transgendered person has "figured out" that they are transgendered and are not honest about that aspect of themselves when entering into a deep committed relationship, then that is not being honest. In that scenario they are not starting a serious committed relationship on the right foot.
As society becomes more accepting of transgendered people you will probably see more of us come to grips with what we are going through at an earlier point in our lives. But for those of us that spent a long time being confused by these strange thoughts and feelings, and coped by simply locking them up inside and pretending they were not real, or that we could just will them away.. not so easy... not so simple. You end up in love with someone and in a serious committed relationship based on who you understand and believe yourself to be - there is no "bad faith" in that.
When and how you reveal your whole identity... Not so cut and dry. Go slow? Go fast and just "rip off the Band-Aid"? It will depend on the personalities of the people involved. Taking the time to sort out ones feelings and come to grips with what it all means and how best to deal with it prior to unloading on a significant other - is that inherently dishonest? I think there is a lot of grey on this topic.
My view is that some slack needs to be cut. Some people knew rather clearly as toddlers that they were in the wrong gender role. Other knew later. The age does not make anyone superior or inferior. Those of us who were telling others about ourselves in our early teens (like revealing to the girlfriends we were "supposed" to date) and avoiding having kids had to deal with one set of problems. Those who finally named it later in life had a different set of problems.
We have trade-offs to make. If it were up to me I would have had SRS at 16 or 18. I was pretty sure of it. Only where do you come up with $10,000 (like a $100,000 in today's money) when you're still in high school? So you wait until you are in your 20s and have salted some money away.
Is the 16 to 18 year old truer, or is the 20-something truer? Or is the 50-something truer? Or the 80-something. We transition when we can swing it. Yes? No? Maybe?
Virginia, (I like that, it was my mother's name),
Personally I think that the older of us, like myself, tend to be lesbians more often than you younger ones. I grew up in the sixties and, until very recently, everybody (who knew about us at all), "knew" that you could only transition into a straight man or woman. So how could I have been trans? Sure I had dreams and daydreams, but did that mean anything? Of course not! "You're a straight man with an unusual fantasy life", never mind that I was absolutely pathetic at being a man. My son was grown and my body's testosterone production was subsiding before I had an inkling. Let me tell you, I am an absolute pro at repression! Those thoughts and dreams were shoved deep in a closet. Almost three years ago, after 32 and a half years of marriage it all came to a head and I began to remember and integrate what I had hidden. Just over two years ago I began medical transition because I knew that I couldn't survive otherwise. My life is a bit of a shambles and I'm slowly rebuilding. My marriage is winding down although we remain the best of friends. I love her with all my heart. She loves me but can't be with a lesbian. So who did I really lie to? Being transgender is not a mental illness, but repression is.
My life is a tragedy, but no one is really at fault. You know what? Look at history, look at literature, in the best of tragedy, no one really is.
I prefer comedy, or romance.
Quote from: Dee Marshall on October 13, 2016, 12:36:52 PM
. . . So how could I have been trans? Sure I had dreams and daydreams, but did that mean anything? Of course not! "You're a straight man with an unusual fantasy life", . . .
My life is a bit of a shambles and I'm slowly rebuilding. My marriage is winding down although we remain the best of friends. I love her with all my heart. She loves me but can't be with a lesbian. So who did I really lie to? Being transgender is not a mental illness, but repression is.
My life is a tragedy, but no one is really at fault. You know what? Look at history, look at literature, in the best of tragedy, no one really is.
I prefer comedy, or romance.
My therapist pointed out one very obvious fact about nearly all MTF, "you were raised lesbian." My therapist went onto make parallels with lesbian lives. "Many would
love to have been raised like you were," meaning me. A mate might make the claim, "I am not lesbian," but in fact 32-1/2 years of marriage prove otherwise. Being a lesbian is much more than having sex with women. Like straight marriages, long-term gay marriages are held together by more than sex. Some (many?) survive without the kind of strong physical relations typical in the early days of the relationship.
Lesbian physical relationships are not
all like the ones shown on
Transparent with pieces of phallic plastic and swami belts. Sure, that takes place, but in a parallel example, few would suggest that some hot Hollywood het movie encapsulates straight relationships.
Fifty Shades of Gray is not the bellwether of heterosexuality. It's made to tittle. No wonder a wife might say after seeing
Transparent, or any of the countless films with lesbian sexuality, "if that's what lesbians are, count me out!" Well, that's
not what all of lesbians are into. "Based on this new information shall I now mark you down as a 'possible' on the RSVP?" Lesbians are into each other. That's the only "rule." That's the only "definition."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7v5glA8p20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7v5glA8p20)
Listen to the words and see if it's all that different.
Virginia
PS You might find this song quaint and odd in 2016, but in second wave feminism such songs empowered many of us who were in the wimmin's movement and were living with other women. We faced the fact some transitioners had been raised lesbian. These performances are less songs, than than they are declarations of life set to some musical instruments and singing.
I have to admit getting into the lesbian presentation took a bit of doing, but that acquired taste is grist for a different post.
I get your point, Virginia, and I get the song, unfortunately the problem here isn't truth, it's deep-seated homophobia on her part. Why else would we be getting a divorce and changing absolutely nothing else? She's still my best friend although she mourns her husband who never quite was, she makes plans for the future with me and wants me to never leave, and yet she wants us to divorce. It's a confusing situation but I understand her so well.