I'll start this by saying that I have only had one laser session and have decided to only use electrolysis for my face.
I'm about 10 hours into my electrolysis now and my electrologist has managed to do a first pass on everything except for my cheeks and a bit under my chin. I reckon it's going to be 15-20 hours for full clearance.
How long did it take you all to have your whole face cleared for the first time.
I've budgeted for about 50 hours of electrolysis and from what I understand each regrowth should be much lighter and more sparse which will make the second and third pass quicker.
I guess I'm just struggling with motivation at the moment, it's such a long and painful process! Hair removal is easily the worst part of transition!
Emily x
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The number of hour can vary greatly. I had light facial hair and may have had close to 200 hours. My first clearing took a long time as the regrowth at first was nearly as heavy as the first round. I would plan on additional cost/time and if you are clear earlier, I am sure you will have more useful things to do with the money. I started with two hour visits a week and only near the end was I able to reduce the number of visits a week.
The process is long and painful but there is nothing like looking in the mirror and thinking I don't have to shave.
Wow, that is amazing! I thought I was the lucky one. Many girls have undergone 100-200 hours of electrolysis to fully clear their face.
I have done about 40 hours so far, over the last 21 months, and I am a few hours away from being done. My approach has been somewhat different. I do about an hour every two weeks. That allows my electrologist to zap the regrowth every time I see her. My face only has a few sparse, thin whiskers left now, and we are getting the last of my throat area done. She has a lot of transgender clients, and she told me she really likes the approach we have taken, if for no other reason than she has a sense of progress. I never really thought about how it must be from the electrologist's point of view. She says when we are done, we are pretty much done for good, no re-clearing, except for any random hairs that might pop up.
~Terri
I always wondered but the genitalia area myself esp since i hear dr ting ask the trans to get electrolysis once before he does their gas ...I also heard getting laser with electro makes electro go faster and not as many hours
I'm not doing X hours per week. I'm under sessions of 8 hours a day for X days until cleared, following the O2 clinic intensive program (in Belgium). First time it was 19 hours, when 32 were expected (4 full days). On May 26th and 27th I'm going for the second session. Usually 24 hours (3 days) are done in the second one but since it took already less than that for my first, I don't know what I should be expecting :) but the electrologist agreed to book 2 days only, because it's probably going to be less than 16 hours.
I have thought about booking an 8 hour session with my electrologist just to get some clearance work done. How have you found the pain? Did you use numbing cream or anything?
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2 hour session takes about 3-4 days to get back to normal-ish.
How fast do you recover from big sessions?
Currently aiming for 2h a week but tempted to do mega sessions but don't think I'd heal fast enough.
The time required to clear the face with electrolysis very much depends on the amount of client hair, the modality used and the skill of the electrologist.
In galvanic mode the lye generated by the direct current acts alone to destroy the hair. The theoretical speed of pure galvanic electrolysis with a single-needle machine is slow compared to blend and thermal. I'd say it is between 60 and 100 hairs per hour per needle. With multi-needle machines the process can be this amount multiplied by the number of needles. Scarring is pretty much unheard of.
In blend mode a high-frequency signal heats the lye to significantly accelerate the process. The limit using traditional settings for blend is about one hair per ten seconds, or 360 per hour. In practice it's probably around 300 per hour, although if the practitioner is skilled and the client has a high pain tolerance the process can also be somewhat faster. With a skillful electrologist scarring is extremely unlikely.
In traditional, flash and picoflash thermolysis the heat from the high-frequency signal acts alone to heat cauterize the follicle. The speed of the process with picoflash units is limited mainly by practitioner skill. (To minimize the amount of current required it is of utmost importance to accurately place the tip of the needle right where the hair papilla is located, and possibly also give another zap to the follicular bulge, which also houses stem cells.) Using this modality some electrologists can remove over a thousand hairs per hour. While it can also cause damage in unskilled hands, with a skilled practitioner the client's skin condition even right after a session can be just about perfect.
Quote from: byanyothername on May 14, 2016, 05:41:01 PM
I have thought about booking an 8 hour session with my electrologist just to get some clearance work done. How have you found the pain? Did you use numbing cream or anything?
The O2 clinic offers IV anaesthesia which the patient can control by using a button. It contains morphine among other things, so you'd think it can be pretty effective, however the electrologist told me that some people used so much that the session had to finish earlier than the 8 hours, as she refuses to give too much anaesthesia in a single session. So while mine was a pretty smooth experience pain-wise (which helped in speeding it up, therefore paying for less hours, yay!), others can't tell the same.
Very soon, I think it's next week, I'll undergo some "normal" electrolysis sessions for my eyebrows in London and I'll get a sample of what other non-IV ways of reducing pain exist out there.
Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 15, 2016, 03:16:53 AM
The O2 clinic offers IV anaesthesia which the patient can control by using a button. It contains morphine among other things, so you'd think it can be pretty effective, however the electrologist told me that some people used so much that the session had to finish earlier than the 8 hours, as she refuses to give too much anaesthesia in a single session. So while mine was a pretty smooth experience pain-wise (which helped in speeding it up, therefore paying for less hours, yay!), others can't tell the same.
Most places wouldn't be able to do that as you'd need a qualified doctor on staff to be able to do an IV with morphine. I like the sound of it though, but you're likely need a day or two of recovery afterwards - no driving especially.
Does anyone know if you can do this anywhere in Thailand? Checking into a hospital for a day or two would be rather nice.
Edit: This is O2 and it describes the PCA for anesthetic
http://www.o2clinic.be/treatments/permanent-hair-removal/electrolysis-hair-removal/
Quote from: byanyothername on May 14, 2016, 01:16:49 PM
I'll start this by saying that I have only had one laser session and have decided to only use electrolysis for my face.
Why only electrolysis, does the laser not work on your hair type?
It seems to work well on me for now.
I don't trust laser as a solution permanent hair removal, also my face tans really easily and I have a lot of blonde hairs. With the time you have to wait between laser sessions too, I just decided to skip it entirely.
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Quote from: byanyothername on May 15, 2016, 08:54:06 AM
I don't trust laser as a solution permanent hair removal, also my face tans really easily and I have a lot of blonde hairs. With the time you have to wait between laser sessions too, I just decided to skip it entirely.
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I had 6 Laser sessions awhile back before I decided to start Electro. The Darks are back and I also think it may be a waste as I tan easily also.
I only do 30 mins - 1 hr every 2 weeks of Electro, because it is so painful. Lying down for an hour is hell. I did receive my new Numbing cream I plan on using next session (30 mins) and if it works, I will start doing 1 hr sessions again.
It's easy to underestimate the time it will take, and to overestimate the pain you will be able to tolerate. Be conservative on both. And, for goodness sake, find a skilled electrologist with a good track record working on transgender clients.
200 hours over 18 months with <5% left to kill.
I love my electrologist she really seems to know what she's doing and works with a lot of trans people. She has just received NHS funding actually. She is called Sarah, works under the name Beauty Lodge and is located in Bedford.
I think I'll be upping my budgeted time to 100 hours. I can just about manage a 2 1/2 hour session but Sarah is getting a new machine this month which blows cold air at you and is also generally less painful, so I'm quite excited about that!
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I am about 100 hours in on face electrolysis. I have a thick beard. I will need at least 100 hours more for the face. They use a topical numbing agent. I have about 4.5 hours on my genitals in 3 sessions. I need about 3 more hours in 3 sessions over the next 2 months (Friday I am scheduled). They use a local which hurts pretty bad while administering.
Quote from: zirconia on May 14, 2016, 10:33:18 PM
In blend mode a high-frequency signal heats the lye to significantly accelerate the process. The limit using traditional settings for blend is about one hair per ten seconds, or 360 per hour. In practice it's probably around 300 per hour, although if the practitioner is skilled and the client has a high pain tolerance the process can also be somewhat faster. With a skillful electrologist scarring is extremely unlikely.
My electrologist removes around 1000 hairs per hour. For lowering the pain she uses injectable anesthetic (Lidocaine). No scar neither bruise. Huge swelling (oedema) the day after but it fully resorbs after a week or so.
Based on your profile pic, I have about the same hair color as you, so most likely I also had similar facial hair. I had like 16 laser sessions (during first two years of transition) and all dark brown, medium brown and bronze hairs are gone. I am left with some blonde hairs, which are almost all thin and puffy hairs, like many cisfemales have. And I dont mind plucking them twice a month. I payed around $600 for first 7 sessions, and the rest was free. If I were to choose to have electrolysis, I would probably need at least 100 hours, and $10,000 for same result...
You need at least 9 to 10 laser sessions to have it start to show permanent results. The laser I have done is medical grade and operated by a nurse. It is permanent and I can see the difference already after about 7 treatments. Like any kind of facial hair treatment it seems like you are going over old ground when in fact you are picking up dormant growth not regrowth of the same follicle. An understanding of how hair grows may go a long way to helping setting realistic expectations The dark hair I have now is finer sparser and nonexistent in many area's. After only 5 or so hours of Electrolysis and the laser I shave every second day and have definite patches that are completely clear and have been for 3-4 months.
The operator should be skilled and the hair affected the most is the dark stuff. What can happen is that the tip of the laser does not quite cover a hair follicle and it may get partially zapped and will recover but it will usually get zapped at the next session. I was quoted 150 hrs to clear my face without using Laser and the laser takes care of about 50%. I am blessed with a light amount of facial hair and I have never been able to grow a beard...I used to have a moustache but had a habit of pulling out the hairs with my teeth so as a result the top lip is quite sparse and mainly Dark hair which are quite light. I never really did want the moustache but it stopped me cross-dressing when in full denial.It never lasted long because once it came in I would have half the hairs pulled out within a week.
Liz K
Laser vs Electrolysis was a very difficult decision for me. I have made the more expensive decision to go with electrolysis for several reasons, but to be honest the main decision is one of impatience. 9 sessions of laser, each 8 weeks apart makes for about 75 weeks before the cleanup work of electrolysis can even begin.
My first laser session left me with hundreds of white hairs around my moustache and beard area which concerned me as the electrolysis would also go on for a long time. Also there is no guarantee that black hairs won't grow back in a year or two, needing more electrolysis. I figured a load of pain and expense at this point is better than years of hair removal.
I do keep wondering, after an hour on the chair, whether I've made the right decision or not!
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I am having both Electrolysis and Laser at the same time you don't have to wait for one to finish before starting the other, my Electrolysis woman just takes the white ones and leaves the black or dark for the laser to have a go at...I started at once every two weeks for laser but am out to every 6 weeks now. It will not get rid of blonde or white hair...but if it will get rid of 90 to 97%% of the black ones...once the follicle is dead it is dead...it cannot grow back. You will get regrowth with electrolysis but again not the same hair...maybe its because you are removing hairs that trigger the dormant ones to start and surface. Whether or not you have laser you will get the odd few hairs growing through for years to come as the last of the dormant ones surface. That is just the way hair grows...if the Laser takes care of 50% of the hairs that's 50% that does not need blasted off my face with electricity.
You will get a good results with Electrolysis no doubt about it...but I would still consider the laser as an adjunct to the electrolysis if nothing else to save pain, time and money. There are plenty here who will attest to the effectiveness of Laser treatment when carried out correctly with the correct equipment. My clinic guarantees permanent hair removal of between 95% and 97%.
Liz K
I fully expect to end up with electrolysis. I am happy with the results after three laser treatments; my face looks and feels much more feminine and not seeing as much of a 5:00 shadow.
I just want to say thanks for everybody's input on this subject. It's been causing me a lot of distress to be honest so the feedback has been great.
Based on my concerns about hours required for electro and suchlike I've decided I'm going to get the electrologist to focus on my top lip and chin area and will be getting some laser on my cheeks and underarms (just because!). As my cheeks are pretty much all dark hairs and my chin/lip have a lot of blonde (and has already had one pass with electro) I think this is a good way forward. I also don't really suffer from shadowing on my cheeks. This combo will hopefully lead to good reduction all round and save me some time in the electrologist a chair!
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Quote from: byanyothername on May 16, 2016, 01:45:48 PM
I just want to say thanks for everybody's input on this subject. It's been causing me a lot of distress to be honest so the feedback has been great.
Based on my concerns about hours required for electro and suchlike I've decided I'm going to get the electrologist to focus on my top lip and chin area and will be getting some laser on my cheeks and underarms (just because!). As my cheeks are pretty much all dark hairs and my chin/lip have a lot of blonde (and has already had one pass with electro) I think this is a good way forward. I also don't really suffer from shadowing on my cheeks. This combo will hopefully lead to good reduction all round and save me some time in the electrologist a chair!
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I really hope it works out and you get some great results from the laser. Sounds to me like you have your bases covered. Good luck
Liz K
Had 6 laser sessions then about 150 hours of electrolysis. Nothing left years later. :)
I started with thermal electrolysis and I had hoped that after over 220 hours that my face would be completely clear. I do not have dense facial hair but they were white color and reddish. My plan was to be clear before srs. That didn't happen and I still have a few white hairs that has upset me.
I am now post op and living in Thailand and here Yahghee Hospital uses Galvanic. I had a 2 hour session and it was a lot more painful than Thermal. I see the results are much much better than thermal. I will have another session and this time I will use novacane. I think maybe a couple of more sessions will do the job...wished I had used galvanic at the start. It would have been faster and cheape.
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 17, 2016, 05:54:27 AM
I am now post op and living in Thailand and here Yahghee Hospital uses Galvanic. I had a 2 hour session and it was a lot more painful than Thermal. I see the results are much much better than thermal. I will have another session and this time I will use novacane. I think maybe a couple of more sessions will do the job...wished I had used galvanic at the start. It would have been faster and cheape.
I'm curious about a couple of things.
Did you find the novocaine works all over or just in limited parts of your face?
As its a hospital, can they do more serious anesthetics than novocaine?
Would you mind mentioning the cost?
Thanks
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 17, 2016, 05:54:27 AM
I started with thermal electrolysis and I had hoped that after over 220 hours that my face would be completely clear. I do not have dense facial hair but they were white color and reddish. My plan was to be clear before srs. That didn't happen and I still have a few white hairs that has upset me.
I am now post op and living in Thailand and here Yahghee Hospital uses Galvanic. I had a 2 hour session and it was a lot more painful than Thermal. I see the results are much much better than thermal. I will have another session and this time I will use novacane. I think maybe a couple of more sessions will do the job...wished I had used galvanic at the start. It would have been faster and cheape.
I too had thermal electrolysis and it was very effective. Around 150 hours of it and I was done forever! :) Depends who does it, their skill level, perhaps the machine, the settings used, etc.
I used a couple of technicians for Thermal. I settled for one who was certified in the UK and had done tg before. The latest equipment was used. The white hairs for some reason are very persistent.
The Yanhee hospital has a funny system. You buy your needle for 65 usd. This they reuse. The 2 hour session cost usd 125. Inclusive of novacane. The novacane is very effective and lasted the full 2 hours, working first on the upper lip area and around the lip. There were 2 young technicians with very good eyesight ..thus they could see the white and reddish hairs. For those with white or reddish hair we know that they are very difficult to see.
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 17, 2016, 10:37:31 PM
I used a couple of technicians for Thermal. I settled for one who was certified in the UK and had done tg before. The latest equipment was used. The white hairs for some reason are very persistent.
The Yanhee hospital has a funny system. You buy your needle for 65 usd. This they reuse. The 2 hour session cost usd 125. Inclusive of novacane. The novacane is very effective and lasted the full 2 hours, working first on the upper lip area and around the lip. There were 2 young technicians with very good eyesight ..thus they could see the white and reddish hairs. For those with white or reddish hair we know that they are very difficult to see.
Can you please tell me where the Novacaine was injected...I am having injections on Tuesday in prep for a marathon top lip and chin clearance. I am not sure how much experience the Dentist will have as to where to place the actual injection so would really like to know if he has done it right. Was it one into the nerve bundle to give you a face block or was it in the lip and the cheek and chin etc
Liz K
,
I understand that they are injected into nerves (wherever they are).
If you can't find out any better by the time you have it I'd suggest that you just pick a likely area and focus the electrolysis on that. Electrolysis does take a while and I don't think the injections cover a large area of your face.
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 17, 2016, 10:37:31 PM
I used a couple of technicians for Thermal. I settled for one who was certified in the UK and had done tg before. The latest equipment was used. The white hairs for some reason are very persistent.
Had no white hairs, maybe that's why results came faster.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 18, 2016, 08:26:04 AM
I understand that they are injected into nerves (wherever they are).
If you can't find out any better by the time you have it I'd suggest that you just pick a likely area and focus the electrolysis on that. Electrolysis does take a while and I don't think the injections cover a large area of your face.
I had a face block done once to remove a back tooth and although the injection hurt the complete right side of my face was numb for a few hours...something like that would be great.
Liz
The first four full face and neck electrolysis hair removal sessions that I underwent at the Zukowski Center in Illinois included numbing the face with injections of a mixture of lidocaine and epinephrine. The injections were place at several places on my face (not the neck which was only treated with a numbing cream). These injections were quite painful with a burning sensation from the epinephrine which is a vascular constrictor needed to prolong the numbing effect of the lidocaine. I couldn't feel a thing in the first 5 or 6 hours of flash electrolysis, but after a break for lunch, the numbing started to wear off and Dr. Z had to administer more lidocaine so that I could get through the rest of the treatment (9 hours with a girl working on each side of my face).
At my 5th clearing I was able to get by with just lidocaine cream numbing and 600 mg of Advil (Ibuprofen) for a period lasting 6 hours. My ability to withstand pain increased with every treatment to the point where I would often doze off once my electrologist and I got tired of chatting... :)
To date, I've had 200 hours of electrolysis in the past 18 months and spent $20K. I have only a small amount of hair left to kill off. Of all the medical procedures I've endured in my transition, facial hair removal is, in my opinion, the hardest to do. If you anticipate transition in the future, I strongly recommend that you start electrolysis early. There's nothing I hated more after I started full-time than having to grow out whiskers for 3 or 4 days in preparation for my next electro session. :(
Is there any risk to full clearing from the get go or is there any additional risk of scarring from cumulative damage when surrounding follicles are nuked in close proximity.
If anyone did full clearance using just thermolysis how was your recovery time?
Ordinarily I have no to very little pain and I'm ok to shave after 2 days looking like a mild shaving rash at worst and back to normal in 3-4 days but biggest session only 2h so far.
Given the massive number of hours people have had it sounds like a few hours a session is almost pointless.
Quote from: Clara Kay on May 19, 2016, 10:46:51 AM
...................... There's nothing I hated more after I started full-time than having to grow out whiskers for 3 or 4 days in preparation for my next electro session. :(
I find this part incredibly frustrating because I have only just started, for me if I have Electrolysis coming up then there is no point in doing much other than staying in Androgynous mode because I seem to be forever not being able to shave. I might get a couple of days a week at most...if the injections I have on Tuesday are successful then I will be doing longer and longer sessions with them. I really hope this works
Liz K
I seem to spend all my time looking Androgynous at the moment due to the constant visits to the Electrolygist!
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Hi Jerrica
It's difficult to generalize, as the risk of damage from a rapid full clearing depends primarily on the skill of the electrologist, secondarily on the equipment and thirdly on hair density.
With accurate insertions the power used can be kept low. Provided that the machine settings can be adjusted accurately the damage can be contained within each individual follicle, the blood circulation in surrounding tissue remains unrestricted and healing can occur from all directions. The skin remains visually perfect.
If insertions are sloppy the needle may not positioned where it needs to be. This means that higher settings are required to kill each hair and results in more tissue damage. If hair growth is dense the damaged areas may overlap, making the healing process less three-dimensional, slower and more difficult, and scarring may result.
Even coarse hair can be safely cleared in one go if the density is low enough, and even thin hair may need to be thinned over several sessions if the individual hairs are in close proximity to each other (especially if the growth direction is not uniform.)
Again provided that the electrologist is skillful, the total cumulative time required to achieve final clearance should be the same whether the hairs are destroyed section by section or using the thinning approach.
Thank you for replying and going over the healing process.
I best go slow and keep at it with guaranteed-ish results instead of gambling.
My remaining growth is not as bad to others as it is to me but the idea of spending the next 30+ weeks growing facial hair makes me feel ill. Should be able to get a better guesstimate tomorrow.
hmm interesting, after much reading and thinking.. yeah do that alot.. i fail to see how a light beam can kill the root of the hair. sorry being a little generic.. knowing how laser beams work, i just dont see it doing a permanent job, since the intensity of the beam would need to be high enough (at which point i believe skin damage would occur.) i sought of think of laser as an alternative to waxing..
but been to several places and i think i will simply skip laser all together, my natural skin tone is olive mixed with anglo-saxon. and laser will not work well on this at all, skin tone too dark. plus when i tan, i go a nice brown, and in winter my skin never goes white... always looks lightly tanned XD
i hope i will be lucky with electro, as it takes around 36~40 hours before i get a 5 oclock shadow.. yup i only need to shave my face every 2 days.
what amount of area do your electro cover per hour? as electro is expensive here in AUS around $135~150 per hour. so for 100 hours i am looking at $13500
My place does about 40mm square in an hour, so 16square cm. Only working on whites left from the excruciating IPL zapping. I've had four rounds of IPL in between and they're really happy with the results. If I don't shave for a couple of days (for electro) I end up with a forest of white hairs that used to be the salt in my salt and pepper. The electrolysis is virtually painless, and she seems to tug on the hair while the needle delivers the power, so it's done when the hair slides out- very efficient. The IPL (as I understand it) bypasses the skin and focuses on the hair due to pigment. The fewer dark hairs in the area being nuked the less it hurts, as there's nothing to get hot and fry. You need to be CLEAN SHAVEN before they do it as it travels under the skin. It reallllllly travels. With eyes shut and blackout goggles on I got flashes in my eyes when she did my cheeks. Much more painful than a tattoo. It is NOT supposed to be used on exposed hair above the skin, as you can get burns and the smell is apparently awful :D
Had IPL last night, and 80% of it was very easy to take. The chin area felt like it was being hit by a belt sander.
Have booked a marathon double session electrolysis on Tuesday next week and hope to clear some of my neck, which is covered in little white hairs. Never noticed them before!!
Quote from: VeronicaMJ on May 20, 2016, 04:37:51 PM
hmm interesting, after much reading and thinking.. yeah do that alot.. i fail to see how a light beam can kill the root of the hair. sorry being a little generic.. knowing how laser beams work, i just dont see it doing a permanent job, since the intensity of the beam would need to be high enough (at which point i believe skin damage would occur.) i sought of think of laser as an alternative to waxing..
Here's an interesting video on laser hair removal
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S20-1_XqVPM
Yes, scarring is a risk when an area of dense hair is treated with Flash electrolysis. I heal exceedingly well, but still I got 'orange peel' on my chin where the hair was most dense. Blend modality is less likely to cause dermal skin layer damage, but it is 10X slower than Flash, and thus more expensive. Laser skin resurfacing (fractionated CO2 laser) helps reduce the orange peel, but don't expect miracles, and it's not cheap. Over many months the irregularity of my skin has reduced, but I suspect some will always exist :( . If I was to do it again (I'm so glad I don't have to), I would demand that the chin area be done with blend.
The laser they use on me looks nothing like that it has a square flat ice cold head. The laser Vaporises the follicle and cells and is not IPL laser. This uses a different laser which is why they guarantee 95-97% permanent removal of dark or black hairs. I have an icepack that I numb my face with just prior to the zapping. They will do my entire face and neck in 10 minutes and we are just approaching the point where it is beginning to get close to not taking that long...the majority of the hair on my top lip is black but the majority on my chin is white. I am luck because it is sparse. I now shave only every second day due to the Laser treatments...the hair is finer, there are very few thick black hairs.
You have to make sure you have the right type of Laser to ensure permanent removal.
Liz K
Laser provides long lasting but not definitive hair removal. Only electrocoagulation achieves definitive hair removal.
If I do not get permanent hair removal from the Laser Treatment I am having, then I will have my money back, if however I get the minimum permanent amount of 95% I will be happy... IPL will not permanently remove black/dark hair permanently, "Light Sheer" laser will, it is not IPL it is a medical grade laser. They guarantee permanent hair removal...I keep reading statements that categorically say that Laser is not permanent hair remova...not all laser is...certain types are and these are supposed to be cutting edge(who knows for sure) and able to do it...I guess time will tell
Liz k
I'm a bit unclear about this laser not being permanent. Is it permanent for only some percentage of hairs, or does it all come back if you wait long enough? If it doesn't come back in say a year is it gone for good?
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 21, 2016, 08:02:44 AM
I'm a bit unclear about this laser not being permanent. Is it permanent for only some percentage of hairs, or does it all come back if you wait long enough? If it doesn't come back in say a year is it gone for good?
From what I know medical laser provides no hair regrowth for a few years at most. Follicles are not fully destroyed by the laser beam. With blend electrocoagulation (electrolysis+thermolysis) 90-95% of processed hair will never regrow.
Quote from: Lucie on May 21, 2016, 08:57:27 AM
From what I know medical laser provides no hair regrowth for a few years at most.
If that's correct then I think it would be a big mistake to do laser. It will drag everything out interminably.
You can find some useful info about hair removal in the "Electrolysis Guide" at TransGenderCare (http://www.transgendercare.com/electrolysis/index.htm (http://www.transgendercare.com/electrolysis/index.htm)).
Hi, AnonyMs
Hair killed with a proper wavelength laser or IPL using a sufficiently high fluence remains gone forever. The results and safety, however, depend not only on the machine and practitioner, but also on the client skin and hair color.
While a skillful electrologist can achieve a well nigh perfect kill rate for all visible hairs and a laser perhaps can't, a laser is usually most cost-efficient if the skin and hair color are suitable. The main concern is safety.
The absolutely safest permanent hair removal method is galvanic electrolysis. However, to achieve speedy results with this modality the practitioner needs a multi-needle machine (which I believe are no longer manufactured). Single-needle blend is not the fastest, but done right it is also very safe. Picoflash thermolysis can be very fast and safe provided the practitioner is skillful. Lasers can cover much area in one go, but the sessions must be spaced apart. Thus, given sufficient funds and access to a good practitioner, full clearance may be faster with electrolysis.
As for laser safety, there may be other procedures that work but here's an outline of what the clinic I was most familiar did. They used handpieces with highly chilled contact tips to keep skin temperature low. The tip was applied to the skin (with gel) using high pressure to squeeze the hair roots so they got as much side exposure as possible. The tip was moved from spot to spot at a measured, meticulous and leisurely pace in order to ensure chilling. The handpiece lens was wiped clean every few shots. The area was also chilled with ice packs post-treatment for about twenty minutes to minimize inflammation.
For male facial hair they intentionally set the fluence low for the first treatment in order to just stun the follicles enough to cause most to shed. This was to lower the density so they could safely raise the power to a much more aggressive level for the subsequent sessions without causing damage. Sessions were scheduled based on the rate at which they observed new hairs enter the growth phase.
Provided that the client was able to completely avoid getting a suntan they were not afraid to use a very short pulse width and high fluence to eliminate all pigmented hair.
Thanks, I can see there's so much so study. I'm not a big fan of pain and suffering.
Urgh - I dread to think how long I've been having electrolysis! But I'm 50 and my beard was dense - not fast growing, but tenacious.
I had six laser sessions - fine to start with then scary. My hairs all decided it was safer to be white and promptly changed colour.
I think I've been having an average of 3 hours a week for 2.5 years. I'm now on one 2 hour session a week and getting easier all the time.
It took about a year to get the face looking smooth all over.
Fortunately my beautician loves me so much she charges me about a third of what she should but the main expense is time.
For anyone looking at long-term electrolysis (electrolysis as a life-style) find an interesting beautician - you'll be spending a loooooong of time chatting!
I don't know the different types of electrolysis but I'm having the one where a single needle gets hot for a moment. I use Emla cream which helps in some areas, particularly the upper lip and either side of the throat which are particularly sensitive areas for me.
I have gone for 11 sessions of laser hair removal so far, across 14 months.
The first three or four times were done long pulsed because I have darker skin (I'm biracial, half-Black). For the fourth or fifth time I switched to IPL and that seemed to undo all of the progress of the previous 3-4 times as well as creating growth in spots where I've never had hair ever in my life (even before laser). Needless to say, we switched back to the long pulsed. However, between my seventh and eighth session, the facility I go to had upgraded all of their equipment, so for my eighth time I tried IPL again. No issues that time so we've been sticking with that since.
Anyway, I only have about 2-3 dozen hairs left. I stopped shaving for one month to get a better idea, and yes, I have few enough that I can count them. Nothing on my cheeks, barely anything on my chin, and most of what's left is immediately below my nostrils rather than my upper lip.
I will do one more session of IPL, and then I will be switching to electrolysis to take care of the stragglers.
I was assured over and over that IPL IS just as permanent as electrolysis by my technician. I told her over and over that I have concerns because I've read otherwise in countless places, but she literally guaranteed me. She even highly recommended that I go with laser OVER electrolysis, despite me saying that I wouldn't care if electrolysis was ten times more expensive and would take ten times as long if it was even just 1% more permanent than laser.
That being said, I do think she's wrong, but I don't mind going in as the hair slowly resurfaces if that does happen. At least it will only take a quick electrolysis session every few months to remove it instead of having to go in for hours every week!
Your technician is wrong and may be financially motivated to tell you this. Beware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_hair_removal
"Hair removal lasers have been in use since 1997 and have been approved for "permanent hair reduction" in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[5] Under the FDA's definition, "permanent" hair reduction is the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs regrowing after a treatment regime. Indeed, many patients experience complete regrowth of hair on their treated areas in the years following their last treatment. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intense_pulsed_light
"Contrary to what is often claimed, photoepilation is not a permanent hair removal method but a permanent hair reduction method. Although IPL treatments will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"
J Cosmet Dermatol. 2013 Jun;12(2):153-62.
"While laser hair removal (LHR) is one of the most common cosmetic procedures practiced in the world, according to the FDA, the only current permanent form of hair removal is electrolysis."
Quote from: KayXo on May 30, 2016, 02:37:20 PM
Your technician is wrong and may be financially motivated to tell you this. Beware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_hair_removal
"Hair removal lasers have been in use since 1997 and have been approved for "permanent hair reduction" in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[5] Under the FDA's definition, "permanent" hair reduction is the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs regrowing after a treatment regime. Indeed, many patients experience complete regrowth of hair on their treated areas in the years following their last treatment. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intense_pulsed_light
"Contrary to what is often claimed, photoepilation is not a permanent hair removal method but a permanent hair reduction method. Although IPL treatments will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair.[6]"
J Cosmet Dermatol. 2013 Jun;12(2):153-62.
"While laser hair removal (LHR) is one of the most common cosmetic procedures practiced in the world, according to the FDA, the only current permanent form of hair removal is electrolysis."
IPL Laser is not going to give you permanent results you need to go to a proper Medical Grade laser to get the permanent results. Even though the above quotes may be a few years old they are right on the money when it comes to IPL. But then my understanding is the IPL is not the same as Laser. My experience with laser shows me it is quicker and far less painful than Electrolysis. while laser is effective only on the dark hair and does nothing for blonde or grey. This is when Electrolysis is required
Liz K
I tried to decide between laser and electroysis.
Had one laser session last year with massive breakout after it.
Hair simply re grown
A trans lady that was a beautician told me to do electrolysis as permanent solution.
I doing 2 hours a week in 2 sessions an hour each.
First session was consult then 30 electrolysis.
So far I done 3 and half's. Most of face is done ( first pass ), except side burn area.
2 hours to go to finish first pass on face.
Getting slight regrowth which the lady zaps again.
Flash themorysis ( spelling ) - my electrologist is crazy fast
No pain relief .....
I'm probably repeating what's already been said, but I'll be terse:
Electrolysis is the permanent solution, yes, but laser cannot be undermined... even if it isn't life-long permanent, the quick and visible results are absolutely, positively invaluable for transitioning and making beard shadow a thing of the past which is a killer on the passing front.
Laser first (unless you're too old of course), then electrolysis for strays/grays.
So happy today, I had 90 minutes electro yesterday and she cleared my whole top and bottom lip! Yay for progress!
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:eusa_doh: :icon_sadblinky: well reading this thread today is discouraging, I don't have that kind of money :icon_sadblinky: :icon_sad:
plus I tan quite a bit and maybe laser won't even work, I never thought I'd want to get away from the sun
I wonder about the 5 o'clock shadow... my face hair has always been fairly less hairy than other men around, still it's impossible to shave so that there is no shadow, there is not much difference before and after I shave my upper lip, what makes the shadow is actually the darkness of the not yet out hairs.
I stopped pulling them last few weeks. Since I was pulling them, the shadow was more manageable, but...
200 hours :icon_sadblinky: that's what, 25,000$?
Part of the problem as I read through this thread is the lack of understanding between IPL and medical Grade Laser. Don't take your Electrologists word for it, do your own research.
I have been having laser since prior to Xmas and I have no regrowth at all...I have new growth which is great because each session I have, the new growth killed, and another layer of cells is dealt with.
I do not understand why people are so insistent that "laser" doesn't work....IPL doesn't work permanently... As I keep saying, the Laser Clinic I use guarantee 95-97% of dark hairs will be permanently removed the rest of the lighter/grey/blonde/white hairs need to be taken care of by Electrolysis. They cannot publicly do this in Australia with out being able to back up their claims and can be sued if you don't get the results, going by what many people here believe my Clinic should be broke and out of business. I attended another clinic yesterday and the owner was also adamant that they could permanently remove hair via laser with the exceptions of the lighter pigmented hairs.
Don't let the new growth fool you into thinking it is "regrowth" I think a good understanding of how hair grows is critical when doing this other wise it is very disheartening to see growth in an area that has only just been cleared and think it is treated hair growing back...as my tech said..vaporised is vaporised...no cells left means no regrowth for that follicle which is no more...
IMHO Bottom Line.....
IPL is not permanent removal, it is for reducing the appearance and slowing the growth
Laser is permanent but will act on only dark pigmented hair
Electrolysis is permanent painful and works on any hair color or thickness
Liz
Have faith Soli. It's dependant on the person really. I think I'm looking at 50-70 hours, over a year or so. Admittedly that is a lot of money still but nothing like 200 hours. And I've had very minimal amounts of laser.
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thanks Emily, I guess one session at a time... I'll find a way. Somehow
Trying to afford , electroysis is hard. After rent I have about $180 left. 2 sessions cost me $140, leaving me $40 for food and another stuff. Starting doing 1 and 2 day fasts to cut costs.
Some countries you get so many hours for free aggrandizement by gender clinic.
No replies to any of my adds for movie star or billionaire to help cover my transtition covers :(
Quote from: byanyothername on May 31, 2016, 06:05:57 PM
Have faith Soli. It's dependant on the person really. I think I'm looking at 50-70 hours, over a year or so. Admittedly that is a lot of money still but nothing like 200 hours. And I've had very minimal amounts of laser.
I agree. With modern computerized blend devices handled by a
skilled electrologist there is no need for 200 hours. A few tens hours suffice for definitive removal of 95% of facial hair (including neck).
Quote from: Lucie on June 01, 2016, 02:29:54 AM
I agree. With modern computerized blend devices handled by a skilled electrologist there is no need for 200 hours. A few tens hours suffice for definitive removal of 95% of facial hair (including neck).
I tried a new Electrologist yesterday and I was amazed at how much she accomplished in a short space of time, about 2-3 times as much as my previous Electrologist who told me about 100 hours, not sure if it was the machine or her skill but the new woman is saying to me things like...another 4-5 sessions and she will have made a huge dent in it. I am so glad I tried someone else...if you can keep still she is really moving with no tugging or obvious scaring...I agree with Lucie
Hope it works out for you
Liz
I got a groupon deal for laser so I did a year of it and I was pretty clear for awhile. The place advertised that they had the latest technology but I don't know if it was medical grade or not. About 18 months after I had finished with the laser my hair started coming back with many, many more white/gray hairs than before, and that prompted me to get started with electrolysis.
I think it's important to find an electrologist that has experience working with transgender women because they will know the proper adjustments to the equipment and the technique necessary to prevent or lessen skin damage for us. I use a well known electrologist in the L.A. area that works with many transgender women and they use the thermolysis method. My skin usually has a few red bumps after each treatment but those heal up quickly.
I have close to 20 hours on the table and I'm starting to see some difference. My tolerance for pain is very low as is my budget so I only go every couple of weeks for an hour each time. I know that i'm going to be doing this for a very long time.
Electrolysis is a very slow process that takes a lot of patience. I have heard from my friends that it typically takes about 120 hours to get it all, with some people needing less time than that and some people needing more.
Quote from: Eva Marie on June 01, 2016, 07:55:53 AM
I think it's important to find an electrologist that has experience working with transgender women because they will know the proper adjustments to the equipment and the technique necessary to prevent or lessen skin damage for us.
Right. A lot of electrologist have skills for cosmetic hair removal mainly on cis women, but have little experience of beard removal on trans women.
QuoteElectrolysis is a very slow process that takes a lot of patience. I have heard from my friends that it typically takes about 120 hours to get it all, with some people needing less time than that and some people needing more.
Thermolysis is slow. Blend electrology is much faster and much more efficient than thermolysis or galvanic electrology alone.
I have had quite a few moments of utter despair during the first clearance because it just seems to take so long, and hurts so much. But once you start to really see progress you will be so happy!
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well thanks everyone for all that info, and the cheers, at least I know...
I need money :eusa_think: ... :icon_idea:
Just completed 5 and half hours over 6 sessions with my electrologist. Got face cleared ! ( first pass ), will see level of regrowth over next week or two. Starting on my neck next week along with touch up on face for any stray hairs that pop up or regrowth. My electrologist rocks ! She even shaped and tinted my eyebrows for free, did my nails for free, and 3 sessions of light therapy to improve healing for free.
I haven't shaved my face in 2 weeks. Just be doing touch ups until any regrowth is killed.
She uses flash thermoysis and is extremely fast.
Little bits of ice to numb top lip to start with in first few sessions. Than no pain relief what so ever.
4 hours / 4 sessions to clear neck ( first pass )
I'll warn you I hated having my neck done and I'm dreading the second pass. It was the removal of the hair rather than the electro itself that hurt.
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Quote from: byanyothername on June 02, 2016, 03:01:16 PM
It was the removal of the hair rather than the electro itself that hurt.
???
What do you mean by "removal of the hair" ?
The pulling of the hair after it has been zapped. I've obviously got some big root bulbs around my neck and when they are pulled out they pull the skin with it, which is very uncomfortable!
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Just so happy to have face cleared ( first pass ), 5 and half hours !
And waiting for next week or two too see level of regrowth.
The neck will be interesting. Four sessons needed for first pass I am told. All her guess have been spot on or she been even faster.
The big blub hair root on neck sounds freaky.
I doing it with no pain relief - not to bad. Just need to keep calm and block the pain.
Quote from: byanyothername on June 02, 2016, 05:17:02 PM
The pulling of the hair after it has been zapped. I've obviously got some big root bulbs around my neck and when they are pulled out they pull the skin with it, which is very uncomfortable!
That's strange. After its follicle has been killed, each hair should come out easily causing no pain at all...
Quote from: Lucie on June 02, 2016, 11:42:39 PM
That's strange. After its follicle has been killed, each hair should come out easily causing no pain at all...
Yeah that's what I thought too .. ?
Well often the root bulb is larger than the hair itself so there is some resistance when being removed. In order for the hair follicle to be killed properly the root and sheath should come out with the actual hair itself. I can tell when the root is coming out compared to when the hair has broken under the skin and left the root there.
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Quote from: byanyothername on June 03, 2016, 02:36:51 AM
Well often the root bulb is larger than the hair itself so there is some resistance when being removed. In order for the hair follicle to be killed properly the root and sheath should come out with the actual hair itself. I can tell when the root is coming out compared to when the hair has broken under the skin and left the root there.
The hair follicle must be killed and then the hair entirely removed, in that order. The hair should never be broken under the skin. At least it's how my electrologist proceeds.
I have been told by couple of Electrologists that you should never have any pulling sensation and the hair, if it is correctly done, should slide out easily. I don't know about ones that have grown wrong. I have had about 4 hours in total and have felt pulling on one occasion and the woman said sorry about that and immediately upped the current and I didn't have any more. With my second woman she likes to keep the current as high as tolerable she says so that will also allow the hair to slide out and ensure no scarring.
Byanyothername what you are experiencing doesn't sound like much fun to me and it is already painful enough. I guess they never get every single one right but from what you describe I would be concerned anout my skin if they were having to pull the hairs out.
Liz
Interesting. From a pain point of view I can do 2 hours in the seat without too much discomfort.
When I talk about broken hairs, what is more likely is that the hair in question is shedding already so it's not attached to its root anymore.
My skin is recovering well post session and no scarring is occurring. I think my Electrolygist prefers to keep the current as low as possible to keep comfort levels up instead, which means slightly more resistance when removing the hairs.
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Also, wouldn't high currents be more likely to cause long term scarring than the pulling of the hair?
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Quote from: byanyothername on June 03, 2016, 06:21:42 AM
Also, wouldn't high currents be more likely to cause long term scarring than the pulling of the hair?
Certainly they would, but too low currents do not completely kill follicles which means possible later regrowth.
Quote from: Lucie on June 03, 2016, 08:37:43 AM
Certainly they would, but too low currents do not completely kill follicles which means possible later regrowth.
I would be concerned about this as well ... When I pluck the dead hairs, there is so little resistance that I can pluck them using just my fingers alone (and I have actually done this). There is also
zero pain when plucking the dead hairs ...
Quote from: ainawa88 on June 04, 2016, 07:57:10 AM
I would be concerned about this as well ... When I pluck the dead hairs, there is so little resistance that I can pluck them using just my fingers alone (and I have actually done this). There is also zero pain when plucking the dead hairs ...
I was told that plucking does not kill the follicle but actually encourages harder and larger regrowth but I can't imagine if it's just a hair left over from being zapped that it should matter. Its plucking the live ones that cause the issues...so I am told.
As far as current goes, yes if they are too high then they will scar, but there is a big area where the current is strong enough to zap the hair follicle without damaging the skin. My understanding is that if you have any resistance then that hair is likely to regrow. The key is in the skill of the Electrologist. With a low current it will be more comfortable but you will also need more passes to clear the area. I like the idea of one hair hit one hair gone...never a chance to regrow. I have asked my Electrologist toi keep it as high as is practical because I do not want to have to do the same hair for a second time.
I have no scarring and I usually am fine by the next day...they have been working along my jaw line which is where most of my light colored beard is. I have very little on my top lip and cheeks. Mainly my chin and just along and under my jaw line...a really nice painful spot!!!
Liz
When I was treated, sometimes I would feel a tugging on a hair. This was a particular stubborn hair and it would get another shot before it came out without resisting. If you are treated with the blend, it's possible that you need a bit more current or a longer hold time before the hair is removed. My operator had to play with the settings a bit before she found the one that worked for my face. Most of the time I think she worked with lighter hair than what I had for a beard.
This is quite interesting so thanks for all your replies! My experience is similar to Dena, if a stubborn hair is found then is gets a second shot before falling out easily. But other hairs seem to hold on a little bit. Also my Electrolygist ups the current on certain parts of my face that are more stubborn.
Based on your feedback I would be tempted to ask her to up the current but my results are so good that I don't really see the point.
For example, first pass on my upper lip took 2 hours, second pass (after 1 1/2 months regrowth) took 1:15. Lower lip and chin area took 4 hours on first pass, and 1:45 on second pass. Regrowth is slow and hairs are fine. I'm going to need many less hours than I had thought based on the results so far!
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Quote from: ElizabethK on June 04, 2016, 04:44:20 PM
I was told that plucking does not kill the follicle but actually encourages harder and larger regrowth but I can't imagine if it's just a hair left over from being zapped that it should matter. Its plucking the live ones that cause the issues...so I am told.
Yes, I do not pluck the hair if there is ANY pulling sensation at all. I only pluck the ones that are ready to fall out, and I wouldn't even do that, but I get a pimple from the pore being clogged with dead hair if I don't. I can also tell which ones are dead because they feel totally different (very coarse vs my "normal" soft facial hair). It's kind of neat, actually!
Quote from: byanyothername on June 05, 2016, 03:08:42 AM
This is quite interesting so thanks for all your replies! My experience is similar to Dena, if a stubborn hair is found then is gets a second shot before falling out easily. But other hairs seem to hold on a little bit. Also my Electrolygist ups the current on certain parts of my face that are more stubborn.
Based on your feedback I would be tempted to ask her to up the current but my results are so good that I don't really see the point.
For example, first pass on my upper lip took 2 hours, second pass (after 1 1/2 months regrowth) took 1:15. Lower lip and chin area took 4 hours on first pass, and 1:45 on second pass. Regrowth is slow and hairs are fine. I'm going to need many less hours than I had thought based on the results so far!
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Hi there,
I saw from one of your posts that you're in the UK. Can you let me know if you're having your electrolysis on the NHS? I've got my NHS hair removal appointment in a couple of weeks and I'm not sure to expect.
I've had three sessions of laser and it appears to have removed a lot of my dark hair but it looks like I have a lot of white hair in its place, unfortunately.
Juliex
Hi Julie,
I'm not having mine done on the NHS as I'm not that far through the process yet.
Bad news is that the NHS only give you 8 hours of electrolysis according to my Electrolygist :-(
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Quote from: byanyothername on June 05, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
Hi Julie,
I'm not having mine done on the NHS as I'm not that far through the process yet.
Bad news is that the NHS only give you 8 hours of electrolysis according to my Electrolygist :-(
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But will they pay for eight sessions regardless of the cost? Or do you have to go to the nearest and the cheapest?
I don't really like my electrolygist. I don't know how to say this without sounding horrible, so I just will - she's a bit common.
Which would be fine, but she's also mentioned two transsexuals By Name and where they work as part of her "I do this all the time" routine.
It's makes me feel really uncomfortable - if someone is talking behind others backs, they're obviously talking behind yours too.
I began with 20 1 hour treatments. I have another hour and half to go, but that won't totally clean my face. I think I'll probably need another 20 1 hour treatments. I am 47y/o but I really don't have a lot of facial hair, nor does it grow back quickly. But I want to make sure my face is completely hairless. So, I think a minimum of 60 hours might do the trick. But I don't know. It really is a person to person thing, ya know? I hope that helped. Cheers:)
Quote from: byanyothername on June 05, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
Hi Julie,
I'm not having mine done on the NHS as I'm not that far through the process yet.
Bad news is that the NHS only give you 8 hours of electrolysis according to my Electrolygist :-(
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Hi,
Up here in Scotland I understand that it's dependent on which health board you fall under. Also, it's being done in an NHS hospital - I don't know if that makes any difference.
8 hours is absolutely useless. It's like someone requesting a motability car and being provided with a steering wheel and a couple of seats.
Jx
Quote from: alex82 on June 05, 2016, 03:04:39 PM
But will they pay for eight sessions regardless of the cost? Or do you have to go to the nearest and the cheapest?
I don't really like my electrolygist. I don't know how to say this without sounding horrible, so I just will - she's a bit common.
Which would be fine, but she's also mentioned two transsexuals By Name and where they work as part of her "I do this all the time" routine.
It's makes me feel really uncomfortable - if someone is talking behind others backs, they're obviously talking behind yours too.
As far as my GIC goes you get a list of NHS approved electrolygists. Mine has just got approved. I don't know where in the country you are but I use Beauty Lodge in Bedford and I can't recommend her enough. She is also getting a brand new machine in a week or two! Exciting!
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Quote from: byanyothername on June 06, 2016, 05:35:23 AM
As far as my GIC goes you get a list of NHS approved electrolygists. Mine has just got approved. I don't know where in the country you are but I use Beauty Lodge in Bedford and I can't recommend her enough. She is also getting a brand new machine in a week or two! Exciting!
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Oh that's ok if they work from a list - I trust that. I wasn't sure if it was a case of here's the budget, find someone yourself.
Thank you for your answer.
Quote from: Soli on May 31, 2016, 04:36:29 PM
:eusa_doh: :icon_sadblinky: well reading this thread today is discouraging, I don't have that kind of money :icon_sadblinky: :icon_sad:
plus I tan quite a bit and maybe laser won't even work, I never thought I'd want to get away from the sun
I wonder about the 5 o'clock shadow... my face hair has always been fairly less hairy than other men around, still it's impossible to shave so that there is no shadow, there is not much difference before and after I shave my upper lip, what makes the shadow is actually the darkness of the not yet out hairs.
I stopped pulling them last few weeks. Since I was pulling them, the shadow was more manageable, but...
200 hours :icon_sadblinky: that's what, 25,000$?
Of the several operations that I'm likely to choose to undergo, electrolysis is the most expensive but spread over three years.
I hunted round beautician's, trying lots out saying I wanted my ears tidying or something so they didn't see me as a meal ticket. I found those used to transgendered could be very formal, so I continued looking until I found someone who I could spend hundreds of hours chatting with! A motherly lady who was a beautician on cruise liners and had stories of the world to entertain me with. We became friends and now go to shows together and meals out with other client-friends of hers. So that gets me out more and she charges me a friend's charge because we enjoy each other's company.
So put effort in at the start and be patient... And it's who you know that matters ;-)
The cost is a lot of money, time and discomfort. Leaving the beautician's looking like you've been attacked by bees makes you feel much more confident about how you look next time you enter the place! And ultimately, the results are wonderful. I'm fifty and my face feels like it did when I was a child. It was worth eveything :-)
So just start looking and wait until the stars align, then just do what you can afford and make a friend. :-) it's worth it in the end.