So this might seem counter-intuitive, but I've decided I cannot wait anymore to start taking hormones, lest the older I get, the less i'll benefit from it.
Having said that, I'm not in a position where the fact that i'm doing this be known. Mostly because I might be disowned, and with little to my name at present, I can't afford to "just come out" at this time. Complete Independence is something i'm working towards, but not something available to me at present.
Having defined my current situation, I wanted to know, if I started HRT, how noticeable would the changes be? I'm hoping I can offset physical body changes with baggier clothes, and facial changes with a new skincare regimen or something. Anyway people have recently commented that I "look" different lately but i'm not doing anything, other than perhaps carrying myself in a more femenine manner? Perhaps? Growing my hair out a bit, and being more particular in my appearance.
The benefit I suppose, is that i've always come off as weird or abnormal, even to my family, so they've probably just brushed off or assumed that this is another one of my quirks. Never thought being the eccentric one in the family would have its benefits xD :D.
Anyway would love to know your thoughts!
It always sounds a great idea!
One of the things about HRT is the response to them vary so much. OK I managed 3 months before there was no way. My brain and my emotions had adjusted. My skin was different, including laser. My boobs! OK they are small but no way did I want to hide them. See above for brain and emotion changes.
There are members who have successfully hidden their changes. But I have to admit the two who I know well have strong personalities and are in a position to control their lives.
In your situation, How about having a plan B and a plan C, easier to make them sooner than later.
I'm on the same bus and the general consensus seems to be that you can fly under the radar for as long as you want...
Quote from: Cindy on May 18, 2016, 04:42:21 AM
It always sounds a great idea!
DITTO! It's not really about "how one dresses" If presenting nominally 'male' there's no greater satisfaction than the occasional mistaken 'ma'am"! Oops your bad not mine!!
I've been doing it for about 8 years, 6 on low dose HRT, 2 on full.
I've kept facial hair, I can dress how I want (baggy clothes and all), I don't get out much so I've relatively limited exposure to others, and the people I live with know what I'm doing. No sports, no swimming, etc. Your success may vary depending on how your breasts develop. I can't complain there, and I still manage to hide it all.
I live as male, and I've kept my male mannerisms. The one time I noticed that started changing I had to make a conscious effort to change it back.
I'm relatively happy with all this, but others may not be. Its one one of the things someone noticed, that I was happy for a change. I'm starting to find the hiding oppressive though, and I'm getting quite sick of it.
Quote from: Cindy on May 18, 2016, 04:42:21 AM
In your situation, How about having a plan B and a plan C, easier to make them sooner than later.
I very much agree with this.
As Cindy mentioned, it depends on how fast your body and mind responds to the hormonal treatment. A few of us including myself couldn't handle the mental impact of being on HRT. I felt I was compelled to go FT right away. However, our circumstances are different.
If you are going to do this, make sure you are mentally prepared for its impact.
All the best xo
Wow it seems like mental impact may be more of a big deal than physical.
With regards to physical, I've been (I guess the best word is "camp-ish but not really. Just somewhat effeminate in my mannerisms and whatnot) so I don't know if that will create a big difference.
Breasts aside, I'm not much of a sports person anyway and I hate swimming so no problem there :). Most of my "athletic side" is walking, machines and exercise classes. I'm hoping I can pass of the other changes as a skincare routine
With regards to the emotional side... Im not one to speak much of myself, but I've been told (and I consider myself) a high functioning individual with relatively good ability to manage/control my mind. I'm also fully aware that going FT would have extremely severe socio-economic impacts. There's no question about it. I'm Indian, living In a highly judge mental, and interconnected society, where I do not only represent myself but my family. Furthermore i just started work in the family business, which will hopefully be very lucrative, allowing me to set money aside for a plan b and c.
I'm hoping knowing all this will allow me to keep the emotional side of hrt in check.
On that note how long did it take before you started seeing emotional effects.
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For me, changes came pretty rapidly. Both physical and mental. I had long presented myself as a feminine male, but hormones made things a lot different. People noticed fairly quickly. Mannerisms, attitude and emotions began to align themselves with my authentic gender.
As they say YMMV, just be prepared either way.
YMMV?
Well I'm hoping to start on a low dose, and move up as I gain more control of my life
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Sorry that stands for "Your mileage may vary"
My rapid changes occurred on low dose (my dose has only been raised once and i also added progesterone). Again everyone is different, just prepare for changes either way. ( you want some of those :))
For me, probably the first things that people noticed were skin changes and boobs. Was kinda tricky hiding those things at first. I think with the HRT I became much more relaxed though and just stopped caring.
I will say when I first started hrt no one noticed a thing. But a month after my sisters started noticing things. My one sister when I told her a month and a half after I started said she noticed that I was getting breasts but she wrote it off as ok maybe I was gaining weight. Now I'm able to hide everything better no one really notices but I know eventually they will lol. If you are really worried about passing get a sports bra. I use padded ones it helps flatten the Brest buds so it doesn't look like your nipples are always hard lol Or that they are really pointy.
My current record is now at two years low dose on oral meds, two on implants (effectively low end of transition doses). I suspect that I'm one of the individuals Cindy mentioned and yes, I'm stubborn as a mule when needs be and career wise I'm in a good position.
It is possible to hide changes but you will need to be selective about what you wear and what you do. How difficult the changes are to hide will boil down to how you develop and that will be entirely unpredictable. Give your youth, there may be a higher risk of outing yourself early if you go on HRT, even at low dose so make sure you have plans you can action on should the worse come to worse.
The bigger issue is emotional changes - going on HRT is a slippery slope and you may very well end up rushing into transition before you're fully prepared, which, from what you've said, may not be the best thing for you in the short to medium term.
In short: not a bad idea, but make sure you have plans should the worse happen.
Good luck regardless of your decision, not an easy place to be in.
Thanks for the advice everyone! I think I may have underplayed significantly the emotional component. Or that even on low doses can produce significant changes. You've given me much to think about.
The good news is, I don't currently have access to hormones (I live in Indonesia where this is a no go). I need to get my medical care in Singapore, and have yet to setup the appropriate infrastructure. But now at least I can keep your advice in mind as I work towards that, and adjust accordingly.
In the meantime I'm working on everything else I can :), I'm 3-4 laser sessions in (fortunately I get a heat rash when I let my body hair grow out and I'm severely probe to Ingrown hair, so it's the perfect excuse! I even have reccomendations from dermatologists that hair removal is the prescribed course of action).
I've also grown my hair out in my youth and only cut it due to balding. However I've discovered propecia and rogaine recently, and am starting to recover it. So that should keep my hair intact until hormones, and I live an extremely healthy lifestyle :)
Not much else I think I can do right?
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That's my game plan. I'm currently 19 months into hrt and still living as a man. I didn't comeout to my immediate family until 7 months and the changes didn't start becoming difficult to hide until about a year in. With just my normal man voice and and some facial hair, I still get gendered male. So I can do it for a bit longer.
Good to hear from someone that's managed it for this long!
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Quote from: AnonyMs on May 18, 2016, 08:47:41 AM
I've been doing it for about 8 years, 6 on low dose HRT, 2 on full.
How were you able to be approved to go on low dosage HRT for so long? Did you stay potent (as in able to have bio kids) during this time? I'd like to go on as high of a dosage as possible while still keeping my ability to have biological kids. I've actually talked to 3 therapists to start by going on HRT for just the short term, but they didn't seem to jump on the idea, but it could also be that they're not very experienced.
Anyways, figured the OP could benefit from your answer as well (not trying to hijack your thread!)
Quote from: rachel_grr on May 19, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
How were you able to be approved to go on low dosage HRT for so long? Did you stay potent (as in able to have bio kids) during this time? I'd like to go on as high of a dosage as possible while still keeping my ability to have biological kids. I've actually talked to 3 therapists to start by going on HRT for just the short term, but they didn't seem to jump on the idea, but it could also be that they're not very experienced.
Anyways, figured the OP could benefit from your answer as well (not trying to hijack your thread!)
I'll jump on this one.
YMMV as always.
If the dose is low enough, chances are Tab A will still manage to fit Slot B. The wrigglers however, do reduce quite significantly and may not allow for unassisted biological kids. The old advice of banking before starting isn't a bad one.
As for going on low dose HRT, it was 10 years between when I last saw my therapist. Went back to my referring GP, told him I wanted to either go on a blocker or onto E, and the next thing I knew was that I had an endo referral in my hands.
My case history was well established by the time I wanted to go on HRT so there was no issue as far as being on HRT without social transition
I was a very gregarious Alpha male and was on full regimen HRT for three years. No one suspected, I did have comments on my youthful appearance and nice facial skin. I also was doing electrolysis.
My mind kinda wanted to change so I wore more androgenous clothing, let my hair grow. I was a speaker at financial conference and had a pony tail .. quite amusing..but no one even noticeced ..thought I was eccentric . Sport was ok.. I wore a double lycra top which squashed my boobs. But swimming in my clubs pool was out of the question . Like Anony says it's quite easy to pass as a male but our minds tend to make us dress and behave more feminine
Quote from: rachel_grr on May 19, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 18, 2016, 08:47:41 AM
I've been doing it for about 8 years, 6 on low dose HRT, 2 on full.
How were you able to be approved to go on low dosage HRT for so long?
I didn't get approved. I'm not asking anyone's permission how to live my life if I can avoid it. Having said that, I recently saw a psych for gender related depression and getting approval to live like this is not a problem in Sydney. The good ones are very accepting and only care about your best interests. I expect that as long as you are sane and understand what you are doing then you can do whatever you want; there's no religious/moral judgement. I didn't know any of this at the time, and had read far to many horror stories from other places; knowing what I do now I'd strongly recommend doing it the official way in Sydney, its easy and fast and you'll get far more powerful HRT. No doubt its safer as well.
Quote from: rachel_grr on May 19, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
Did you stay potent (as in able to have bio kids) during this time? I'd like to go on as high of a dosage as possible while still keeping my ability to have biological kids.
No idea, I didn't try. If you want to keep fertility all bets are off once you start HRT. As far as I know there's no scientific evidence for what your chances are at any level of HRT. Some people are lucky, others are not. There's plenty of people who can't have children even without HRT. To avoid disappointment I'd be looking at children before starting (and disclosing you're trans status to your partner beforehand), and/or sperm storage.
Quote from: rachel_grr on May 19, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
I've actually talked to 3 therapists to start by going on HRT for just the short term, but they didn't seem to jump on the idea, but it could also be that they're not very experienced.
It you're only after letters you might want to think about what you tell them next time. If you've a bad psych they only want to hear the standard trans narrative.
Quote from: yokosoko on May 18, 2016, 10:20:21 PM
The good news is, I don't currently have access to hormones (I live in Indonesia where this is a no go). I need to get my medical care in Singapore, and have yet to setup the appropriate infrastructure. But now at least I can keep your advice in mind as I work towards that, and adjust accordingly.
From what I've heard, I'd be working on emigrating to another country. Australia's very nice if you can manage it.
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 19, 2016, 04:15:16 AM
I was a very gregarious Alpha male and was on full regimen HRT for three years. No one suspected, I did have comments on my youthful appearance and nice facial skin. I also was doing electrolysis.
My mind kinda wanted to change so I wore more androgenous clothing, let my hair grow. I was a speaker at financial conference and had a pony tail .. quite amusing..but no one even noticeced ..thought I was eccentric . Sport was ok.. I wore a double lycra top which squashed my boobs. But swimming in my clubs pool was out of the question . Like Anony says it's quite easy to pass as a male but our minds tend to make us dress and behave more feminine
You've pretty much describes my goals! :d
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 19, 2016, 05:17:14 AM
From what I've heard, I'd be working on emigrating to another country. Australia's very nice if you can manage it.
As I said, due to family reasons it's not possible. The only option I have of emigrating is to get this company up and running ASAP (my role in the family business is to expand to Indonesia. This company will be my primary source of income once its operational and generating funds), and able to function independently. Then my plan is to move to Japan and run it from there :d. Although that will take at least 3-5 years
So far I have been hiding in plain sight for nearly 3 years on low dose E as still terrified.
While not hard to hide the changes it is getting harder and harder wanting to hide.
Getting rid of the hares slowly as it takes time.
Girls are very prominent and fill a c cup and I do love it.
I do feel much happier in myself.
I miss being able to swim for the time until its all done.
I do like the changes personally and Cindy has threatened to come around and sort me out...
Should I be scared?
That sounds like a good plan.
I've been very focussed on money since starting this journey. I never much cared about it before.
At this point I have a long list of countries I'll never visit, not even to transit the airport. If I opened a company in another country I'd want to make sure I could never get dragged back there for legal reasons related to that company - ie to represent the company In court or to sign documents.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 19, 2016, 05:30:53 AM
That sounds like a good plan.
I've been very focussed on money since starting this journey. I never much cared about it before.
At this point I have a long list of countries I'll never visit, not even to transit the airport. If I opened a company in another country I'd want to make sure I could never get dragged back there for legal reasons related to that company - ie to represent the company In court or to sign documents.
What do you mean? Could you elaborate?!l especially regarding the countries youd never visit
Places that are dangerous to be trans. Middle East, Russia, Indonesia, etc. Japan is safe.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 19, 2016, 06:11:42 AM
Places that are dangerous to be trans. Middle East, Russia, Indonesia, etc. Japan is safe.
Actually, surprisingly Russia is not that unsafe. At least ST Petersburg. There's even a well known m2f studio there that does nights around town and whatnot.
With regards to the Middle East I get it, but around Asia, even Indonesia, as long as you're as stealth as possible at immigration, and you match your passport pic, you should be fine. You are literally just coming off as a feminine or Andro looking person, not all that abnormal.
Further more once you're in and when moving around, if you pass, then it's easy, if you're not comfortable with your passing, sticking to major cities and well known areas (especially the mod- higher end places and you should be fine). The safety issue comes (and I hate sounding classist Bc I'm not, I just speak from experience, but you will find exceptions to this :) ) comes from the working class sub $800-1000/month crowd as they're often less exposed to worldly views (I won't say uneducated as most have college degrees), which can lead to slightly more extreme reactions.
We probably have different ideas of what is safe.
Quote from: AnonyMs on May 19, 2016, 06:25:03 AM
We probably have different ideas of what is safe.
Trust me, let's just say I've been fortunate to be brought up in a privileged but very sheltered life. I get scared ->-bleeped-<-less when I go out that I'm going to have mobs follow me home, no thanks to the news. Usually it's no different than Europe, or other places in Asia. I'll just get an occasional weird look. But then again I stick to expat friendly, higher end malls, restaurants and venues.
In my experience if you have someone local who has similar standards or life background to you vouch for a place. (And you follow their tips), it's usually safe :).
Quote from: Jenny07 on May 19, 2016, 05:27:21 AM
I do like the changes personally and Cindy has threatened to come around and sort me out...
Should I be scared?
You're not the only one she's threatened! :laugh:
Quote from: yokosoko on May 19, 2016, 06:30:01 AM
Trust me, let's just say I've been fortunate to be brought up in a privileged but very sheltered life. I get scared ->-bleeped-<-less when I go out that I'm going to have mobs follow me home, no thanks to the news. Usually it's no different than Europe, or other places in Asia. I'll just get an occasional weird look. But then again I stick to expat friendly, higher end malls, restaurants and venues.
In my experience if you have someone local who has similar standards or life background to you vouch for a place. (And you follow their tips), it's usually safe :).
I'm also concerned about what would happen if you had any legal troubles. The law in many of those countries is not going to protect you.
I started with 6 months of low dose and have now had 12 months on full dose.
I'm not out at work yet, and I have to wear a sports bra to keep the girls packed down. And I'm pretty sure I caught my boss staring at my chest yesterday. LOL
For me, the laser did more for presentation than HRT has. The hormone changes have been noticeable but subtle. But really, having no facial hair seems to have had the biggest impact on my appearance.
And I have a few thoughts on keeping it together mentally while waiting for the right time. I've had a few friends jump into full-time really quickly, and they all had similar problems. Beard shadow tough to hide, non-passable voice, not enough clothes for a full-time wardrobe, still working through the teenage girl phase, etc, etc. For these reasons, I'm glad I decided to take it slower. I'll be coming out at work in about a month and I'll be full-time then, and I feel ready...confident, even.
One of the reasons I decided to take it slow was to get my head on straight and also give my wife time to adjust and get on board with the changes. And as I've been able to cross off those fears and obstacles, it's gotten harder and harder with each one to stay on course and not just say "screw it!" and go full time. My excuses are disappearing.
Quote from: Cindy on May 18, 2016, 04:42:21 AM
It always sounds a great idea!
One of the things about HRT is the response to them vary so much. OK I managed 3 months before there was no way. My brain and my emotions had adjusted. My skin was different, including laser. My boobs! OK they are small but no way did I want to hide them. See above for brain and emotion changes.
There are members who have successfully hidden their changes. But I have to admit the two who I know well have strong personalities and are in a position to control their lives.
In your situation, How about having a plan B and a plan C, easier to make them sooner than later.
THIS! I thought I would hide out while on HRT as well, but I am becoming so much more in love with myself that I can feel the walls crumbling and I have this desire to stop hiding.... I did not expect this going in, I figured I would be in control as long as I chose. I still have control, but I feel the desire to be myself growing. And I am responding very well to HRT
Thanks so much for this thread - the low dose/hide in plain sight path is one I think a lot about also...
Unless you flat out tell them you're transitioning, I doubt anybody will say anything. Asking someone if they're transitioning that isn't out yet is akin to asking a woman that's not pregnant when they're due. It's a bad idea and most people have the sense not to do it. They'll probably just think you're going through a phase. They may even attribute a small chest to man boobs to keep themselves safely in their pit of denial.
@emilee that's what I believe :d
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My guess is that you will never be happy without estrogen & removing the wrong stuff. Just get started & let things work out......They are not magic pills to make us a complete beautiful woman overnight, I sure wish they were!!! you will change & improve but it will be gradual.....
@francisann, it's not that, it's more about, knowing that you're finally on the path to correcting your body, and whatever the results may be, you know it's the natural result of having the right hormones, wether it's a lot, or little changes,
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What about some of the other physical changes that occur? Hips and butt, come to mind. What can one expect, and the timing of those changes?
Quote from: yokosoko on June 01, 2016, 08:58:16 AM
@francisann, it's not that, it's more about, knowing that you're finally on the path to correcting your body, and whatever the results may be, you know it's the natural result of having the right hormones, wether it's a lot, or little changes,
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I understand completely. Long long ago I would get birth control pills from all my girl friends to try & improve myself, that was back in late high school or college. No one much back then would help with real HRT......My mother tried to help me in junior high with HRT but no doc would help much. So yuck my body got the wrong hormones....hated every minute of it......good luck.
Quote from: Rafaela on May 18, 2016, 05:15:02 AM
I'm on the same bus and the general consensus seems to be that you can fly under the radar for as long as you want...
Until you hear that one of your employee's made a remark akin to, "The world is going on with him? He needs a bra!". Yeah, it happened about a month ago. And it is definitely time. Baggy clothes do NOT work anymore. Lol.
But to answer your question more directly, depending on genetics and starting point, 9-12 months is about the threshold for male fail. I had another employee tell me he had to do a double take to make sure I was a guy, and I thought to myself, "No, honey.. You had it right, I'm a chick." Lol. Anything past 12 months goooooood luck. It's gonna be hard short of binding and keeping a beard.
I'm in the same boat, I'm 15+ months into HRT and so far so good. I work around 90-95% males that all exhibit the usual male pecking order and testosterone driven ego. However none of the men at my job have noticed or said anything. I know that it isn't because they're being polite or nice, I don't work with those type of guys that wouldn't say anything, no joke or comment would be considered "going overboard or too mean" so anything considered as intended comedy is fair game. A female coworker that I'm sorta close to did make a comment in the tone of "hey, you look like your working out or something". I received a similar comment from another closer female coworker but none from any of the fellas. I don't have a lot of breast growth, I'm about an official "a-cup" and I mainly dress in male mode with facial hair, but my feminine wardrobe is slightly larger than my male wardrobe. Even still, I don't get comments or questions regarding my gender. I believe my "around everyone" mannerisms differ from my "around those that know" mannerisms and that tends to make a huge difference. While my breast size seemed insufficient in size to me, my ex-wife noticed them with no problem about 4 months ago. She's the only one that has noticed enough to say something. I see my mom most of the day and several other family members and neither of them have said anything either. Well my mom commented on my butt looking bigger than hers one day when I was wearing some pants 1 size smaller than normal. Completely unexpected because I'd been focused more on the growth of my breast than anything else, so to realize my butt had grown more than expected was a pinch of a shocker. I believe that as said before though one can probably go stealth indefinitely depending on ones mannerisms, style of dress, and degree of facial transformation as I think people see a person's face first and use that to base what gender they believe a person is. However mannerisms and dress may reveal something different. In the past few months my butt has been absorbing the bulk of my HRT, so right now my behind looks totally female, and that can be hidden under male pants, but not in anything form fitting. I believe as long as facial hair exists and your not Dolly Parton or look pregnant you can pull it off almost forever.
Quote from: HourGlass2B on June 11, 2016, 03:55:20 PM
I believe as long as facial hair exists and your not Dolly Parton or look pregnant you can pull it off almost forever.
I know MMV, but this is incredibly reassuring!
Im 10 weeks into HRT and boobs are small, but coming, although I had moobs before. But yesterday I was with a large group of women that I havent seen in about 4 months and even then it was always in a darkened bar (wifes dart team, had a yearly banquet yesterday :)) So anyway, I was prepared for questions and comments and got ZERO... and they all love me... its never awkward, it just didnt come up. They didnt even mention my beautiful longer hair even when discussing hair amongst them... :/ I really cant even say I got a second glance or mini stares... was a lil depressing but shows that what we think is going on doesnt really make a big impact in the world