I watched her say that the other day on I am Cait and that struck me as an weird thing to say. She was talking like they were two completely different people and was grieving him as if he had actually died. And I'm thinking isn't everything that was significant about that alter ego, still in you as it was you only a year ago? I mean she later says as much during the show. I get that she's probably being melodramatic for the camera, but I can only imagine how the layman viewer interpreted it.
Note to any parents reading this: The child you knew doesn't die if they transition. They aren't two separate entities.
The thing is a lot of trans people feel this way. My problem is that I was like this since I can remember and I only played a role in order to hide so I really don't view myself separately , but I know a lot do make a division which is totally understandable and there is absolutely nothing wrong with however you view your other years. Just my 2 .318 cents.
I hear a good few trans women say they mourned 'the old them' but haven't of yet heard of a trans man saying that. I found it strange too as you're the same person as you were before; just now free to show off previous hidden parts of your personality. I've only heard trans women saying this after living much of their adult life as male; so I suppose it makes sense they'd be upset about losing an identity that took up such a huge part of their life and which they had many fond happy memories with.
My male front was a persona, not a person. I'm busily dismantling it. Mourning it just doesn't feel right for me.
Mine was every bit as much a real person as the rest of me even if it's aura was my creation. It was a very good creation and I did well with it.
Sapere Aude
IIRC, Cait said that when she received her new drivers license and I'm sure that was an emotional moment. I think what she was trying to put across was it was a turning point and it was official. Bruce the Olympian was the past, Caitlyn is the present and the future. It makes some sense to me.
I remember exactly where and when I realized I could no longer put up the façade and I had to be myself. It was in the summer as I was walking in downtown Philly. Over the next 6 months I spiraled down hill till December 2012. it is really scary when the way you exist is a completely false person and there is an inner identity that is stunted. It was like I was in a battle with myself. Part of me had to be me and part was scared and fought with myself to be safe and continue as before.
I resolved the internal conflict but not till after a breakdown. My male identity did not die it literally went away. Perhaps there was no room for my old male identity and my identity that was stifled emerged and grew and continues to grow. I could not go back to the old way I existed.
We all experience being trans in different ways. I admire Ms. Jenner for being up front with the entire country about what her experience has been. There have been many occasions when she could have gone honest or sensational and she went honest.
Quote from: Deborah on May 21, 2016, 04:48:08 PM
Mine was every bit as much a real person as the rest of me even if it's aura was my creation. It was a very good creation and I did well with it.
Sapere Aude
This.
Quote from: Rachel Lynn on May 21, 2016, 06:42:25 PM
I remember exactly where and when I realized I could no longer put up the façade and I had to be myself. It was in the summer as I was walking in downtown Philly. Over the next 6 months I spiraled down hill till December 2012. it is really scary when the way you exist is a completely false person and there is an inner identity that is stunted. It was like I was in a battle with myself. Part of me had to be me and part was scared and fought with myself to be safe and continue as before.
I resolved the internal conflict but not till after a breakdown. My male identity did not die it literally went away. Perhaps there was no room for my old male identity and my identity that was stifled emerged and grew and continues to grow. I could not go back to the old way I existed.
And this.
Meh, other people have already explained it better and more briefly than I. But I'm going to post this anyways because that's just how I roll - extraneously.
I feel like most aspects of my male persona were created due to outside pressures rather than my own desires. Perhaps I overestimate or lend more significance to subtle differences than is deserved, but regardless, he was like a big brother who kept me safe, and we couldn't both be expressed at the same time, so... he had to "die" so that I could "live". He was basically a large set of defense mechanisms that were developed over a lifetime. Everybody that knew me before I began transitioning was extremely surprised by it (but nobody freaked out or shot beer out of their nose or anything even mildly amusing >:(); I was told "That's the last thing I ever expected to hear from you" and "There's never been anything feminine about you".
In transitioning I am attempting to become who I have always been deep down but could never express in even the smallest way, or acknowledge to myself. Yes I'm still technically me, but there was a massive amount of repression that had to occur. Honestly, it STILL trips me out how diametrically opposed parts of me have turned out to be, in comparison to who I had convinced myself I was. The trans realization is literally a manhood destroying thing, which is a scary as hell thing in our society; masculinity is rigidly defined and strictly enforced, and is an incredibly fragile thing that has to be actively guarded against the feminine. My larger point being that, for some, transitioning comes at the cost of many aspects of their former personality, including the way they see themselves, if denial was involved. I've heard other MTF's talking about this phenomenon as well so I'm assuming that's Caitlyn's deal and that I'm not projecting TOO much, and that she didn't just mean the end of Bruce in a legal sense...
You may have read some stuff about how older MTF transitioners can sometimes go overboard with expressed femininity compared to people in their teens and early 20's - in addition to the generations becoming, on average, increasingly permissible to things like gender expression and sexual orientation, the younger someone is when they transition the less time they've spent having fake personality traits ingrained into them and the less pronounced the difference between old and new will be. Not to trivialize or say that younger transitioners are not as trans or don't have it as hard as older transitioners, it's just two different sets of experiences, and Caitlyn's is that of a late-life transitioner. She's spent a very long time being male, not just to the outside world but quite likely in her own mind as well. At a certain point, in certain environments, denial becomes a necessity.
Thankfully, I can easily imagine (*cough*) a day where being trans isn't even really a thing, not because it doesn't occur, but because nobody cares how anybody else expresses themselves. The social dynamics that prevent this and contribute to the prevalence of anxiety and depressive disorders within the trans population are already headed in that direction. Side note - I think this is what people who claim the entirety of gender is a social construct have in mind - the idea that it's completely plausible a genderless society could exist. One where there are no rigidly defined or enforced gender traits, and only sexual dimorphism remains. They simply fail to comprehend the innate parts of gender that are, ultimately, the source of gender dysphoria.
And as for why some FTM's may have a less pronounced experience regarding "old them" and "new them", I think it comes down to the social conditioning of the genders - tomboys are more readily accepted than the AMAB equivalent, up to a certain point at least. Basically, feminism, both intentional and the result of circumstance (such as needing factory workers during WW2) has made more strides in gender-bending permissiveness for females than males. As a specific example, 100 years ago women weren't really allowed to wear pants. Now they are, but men still can't wear dresses in casual environments (rare circumstances such as costume parties, charity events, et cetera, excepted). It's changing somewhat, especially in certain social circles and geographic locations, but the progress has been slower for AMAB than for AFAB. Don't slay me for this if I've got it wrong, but I think the more reluctant acceptance of feminine traits in AMAB results, on average, in more severe amounts of inner-repression, denial, etc. than exists in the average population of FTM's, resulting in disparate experiences regarding "My old self DIED isn't it so dramatic?!".
In addition to the evolutionary force of feminism having unequal effects/following the path of least resistance, there's the original sexism problem - the message that's given by our culture is that a FTM is moving
up into the man's world, and a MTF is moving
down into woman's : to desire to be a man is only natural, but to desire to be a woman is wrong, weak, and perverted; why would anybody possibly want to be a woman? It's so not alpha. As such it makes no sense to them, in a similar way that it makes no sense except as a perversion to religious types whose morals come from their religion - anyone who's not of their religion is necessarily immoral.
Bringing it back around...a lot of MTF's try to "man-up" and out macho their trans'ness, even if only subconsciously. I'd be interest to hear from any FTM's who tried the same thing on the other side, and if they experienced a clearly delineated "before" and "after" personality or if the changes were mostly outward.
Anyways, I realize I've wandered all over the place subject-wise, and that I'm heavy on assumptions and logical leaps that may very well be complete BS. It's not my intent to offend anyone, mansplain anything, or spread misinformation. These are just my thoughts and understanding at the moment, and are subject to change. Feel free to educate me anywhere I've got it wrong or on any points you disagree with! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1-HM234DE
I'm no doubt a vastly different person to who I was three years ago and yet in many ways I don't consider myself a different person at all. It's just the facade and ability to live as I identify that has changed. Although you wouldn't think so if you asked my father, I'm pretty sure he believes his "son" was murdered by some female imposter.
I can relate to it as well and I'm sure my mom can too. Those legal changes especially once all the documents were changed over really do put to rest the past and for someone like Ms. Jenner after all those years it is a rather big moment as you to rest your dead name and the life people had connected with it. My mom literally did have to mourn the person she believed to be her son. Hugs
Mariah
I don't feel like a separate person yet. But I acknowledge that I may after several years, after HRT, etc.
I have never seen Caitlyn Jenner's TV program but I have to admit the remarks hit home with me. We may be of a similar age group as was pointed out earlier but possibly it has something to do with burying identity and final acceptance.
The deeper you bury the TG personality the more the 'rebound' maybe?
I do think there are some fascinating topics to explore here in self identity and societal expectation of identity.
And I think an opportune moment to understand that transmen and transwoman face the same horrors and maybe we should reflect on the similarities of what gender dysphoria is; rather than perceptions that one set of physical genital organs provides some sort of advantage when you are a transgender person.
Horror is horror.
I digress!
I remember distinctly when I watched my male person die. His name was Pxxx and he was very brave and he protected me. But I watched him leave and I am so grateful to him.
He was a different person, we share skills, a bank account and not much else :laugh:
To be honest I struggle with his memories, although I have no fear of them and sort of enjoy now going back and seeing what he did. I just can't recall what he must have been thinking except on a few occasions, and they are usually sad.
It is interesting that many trans people talk about another trans "persona" or give a separate name for their opposite gendered selves, particularly before transition from what I see in trans communities online. I'm not sure if it's the restrictions of our culture that force people to do this, because many have to hide this "other self" for a while, or whether it is that males and females really are different enough to qualify as very separate entities psychologically.
I mean people are always banging on about men and women being more similar than different, but trans people really to cause me to question that idea.
Personally I don't feel like there's a separate entity at all, inside of me that consider itself male. I think I'm just whatever I am and the things that change are the labels and the names according to how people perceive me. I didn't have another name for my male self, I didn't hide any aspects of personality. But I think I'm probably an outlier because a lot of people express a marked difference between their old and new selves, they pick a name for their male or female manifestation, and they find distinct separations in time between expressing one or other often enough. Interesting.
@T.K.G.W.Is it age?
I was born on 1953 in the UK. Feminism didn't exist (well not really), no jobs, rations were still in effect (yep you couldn't buy food). There were few jobs and a lot of ex soldiers. It was 10 years after WWII. The world was shattered.
The USA put in the Marshal Plan, which changed Europe.
Medical services were limited. There were so many ex service people suffering PTSD and no one knew what it was.
I saw my television set when I was 5 yrs old. The family watched the test pattern all day and all night. It was a miracle.
Seven years old: 'Mummy. I'm a girl and not a boy.'
No your not, go clean the (your room, bed, toilet, whatever) and hurry up.
Later.
Our son seems to be a bit girly we will save up all of our money and send him to an all boy grammar school.
As the Jesuits have said, give me a young child to educate and they are ours for ever. They are not the only religious order with the same motto.
My brain was developed and my education was excellent and I was raped more times in 13 years than I can count.
13 years old: Mummy why aren't my breasts things growing, and (puberty question about my sister).
You are a boy not a girl, and if we catch you wearing your sister clothes again we will take you to the doctor.
They did and then did.
Do you know the treatment then?
Ridicule.
I was allowed to wear female clothes but I was ridiculed by my parents ever time I walked into the room.
I won't go much further I'm reaching private areas that meant I found my own path in life.
So, Pxxxx hid me. He protected me. But hopefully in today's generation that is not necessary
My relief of finally abandoning my mask of him was and is still quite shattering.
Sorry, I didn't mean to post as an old fool.
Maybe I am
But that is for the good.
Quote from: Elis on May 21, 2016, 01:44:48 PM
I hear a good few trans women say they mourned 'the old them' but haven't of yet heard of a trans man saying that. I found it strange too as you're the same person as you were before; just now free to show off previous hidden parts of your personality. I've only heard trans women saying this after living much of their adult life as male; so I suppose it makes sense they'd be upset about losing an identity that took up such a huge part of their life and which they had many fond happy memories with.
I will NEVER mourn becoming full-time JENNIFER. :)
Well I was born in the 70s so I don't know. I do remember angry feminist women in my childhood but at that point they didn't seem to have much to with LGBT and people just didn't speak about trans issues; I once heard mention of a "sex change" as a kid but no-one I knew and no explanation or information given. The only specific difference in gender attitude I recall was that my mother was a feminist who was angry about her parents passing her over for university for her brother instead and telling me I was going to get the education she never had; I was going to learn to be self sufficient and I was not going to get an especially gendered upbringing. But she was a black sheep; the rest of the family were not like her, nor anyone I knew.
This gave the illusion of freedom (and acceptance) for me, but since coming out I've found myself ridiculed by even this woman for being trans.
I had no mask though, nowhere to really hide. If I had I might have had a more comfortable social life and operated in life more easily than I have been able to. Not having this from the start has made it easier in the long run though. No needing to discover myself, no doubts, no fears I'm not the same person. It was paid for heavily but it has advantages down the road.
Quote from: Rachel Lynn on May 21, 2016, 06:42:25 PM
I remember exactly where and when I realized I could no longer put up the façade and I had to be myself. It was in the summer as I was walking in downtown Philly. Over the next 6 months I spiraled down hill till December 2012. it is really scary when the way you exist is a completely false person and there is an inner identity that is stunted. It was like I was in a battle with myself. Part of me had to be me and part was scared and fought with myself to be safe and continue as before.
I resolved the internal conflict but not till after a breakdown. My male identity did not die it literally went away. Perhaps there was no room for my old male identity and my identity that was stifled emerged and grew and continues to grow. I could not go back to the old way I existed.
I would prefer my own suicide rather than stop being full-time JENNIFER. I will NEVER "go back." Never.
My male persona was an outstanding male....he achieve all the success that men dream of. Wealth, brilliant business person,world class athlete, women thew themselves at me. He was an arrogant bastard, full of himself and had little empathy.
I still use some of his talents but I'm a different person.
Quote from: Deborah on May 21, 2016, 04:48:08 PM
Mine was every bit as much a real person as the rest of me even if it's aura was my creation. It was a very good creation and I did well with it.
I feel like the odd person out here by not feeling like my male persona is all that different than the rest of me. That may be due to the stage of my transition but I also see some other differences that may contribute.
The main one is denial, I see a lot of people speak of being in denial. I don't think I have ever been in denial since I was 13 years old. Yes, I had to hide it for survival but I always knew and accepted myself. While I did affect some behaviors and mannerisms to aid in that camouflage I always viewed that as something external and not intrinsic to myself. So as I move along and drop these things it doesn't feel like I'm losing any part of myself but rather like shedding an old costume that served a purpose but is now worn out and no longer needed. I was never that costume. It's just all I allowed other people to see.
The real operating system has always been there humming along at full speed and has always been in control even if due to its packaging it remained imperceptible to anyone but me.
Why I am only now proceeding with some sort of transition is due to many factors but denial was never one of them.
Sapere Aude
I tend to make a big distinction between the "Old" me and the person I am today. The "Old" being a lifeless soulless thing that had no feelings, no reason to exist beyond "It was expected".
Then.... There is the other big factor of never being able to take ownership of all the really cool, great, amazing, and wonderfull things I did accomplish as I muddled my way through life. Because back then I was "Doing what was expected".
Today I can look objectively back at John and think, even say out loud. I did some really great things that I have every right to be proud of. No Shame. No Guilt
It may be the number of years I have lived post surgical but looking back, I can't see a dividing line between the old me and the new me. Before age 13 the rules of gender needed to be learned and often I was quite confused about some of them. I acted like a boy but my natural responses were mistaken for maturity when they might have been passive/nurturing. At age 13 I intentionally put up a false front and people saw what they wanted to see. Nobody questioned me about my lack of friends, no interest in sports and no interest in dating girls. My self image behind that false front are still the same as today minus the discomfort with my life. The false front was able to get me through school and started me on my way in life but it served it's purpose and in the end became to much of a burden to maintain.
To me there were simple physical issues as well as psychological.
Basically the absence of E and the presence of T warped my development from child to adult. Reducing and disconnecting the bulk of my emotional capacity. So slow it wasn't ever noticed until after.
To all intents and purposes my hardware was shot to bits. As Gerard I would say he was the best I could do with what I had. Female impulses were controlled (to a degree) and every expectation was met if not exceeded.
Was I happy?
Did I love my wife and kids?
Yes to both as much as I could but that capacity was no more than 5% if I'm being generous.
Now that I am restored Gerard is ultimately dead and Jerrica is alive. Dr Who style I retain all the memories including education etc.
Anything he could do I can do better apart from lift heavy things.
Short version
Whilst I was him for a time he is not me.
Quote from: Deborah on May 22, 2016, 07:27:14 AM
I feel like the odd person out here by not feeling like my male persona is all that different than the rest of me. That may be due to the stage of my transition but I also see some other differences that may contribute.
The main one is denial, I see a lot of people speak of being in denial. I don't think I have ever been in denial since I was 13 years old. Yes, I had to hide it for survival but I always knew and accepted myself. While I did affect some behaviors and mannerisms to aid in that camouflage I always viewed that as something external and not intrinsic to myself. So as I move along and drop these things it doesn't feel like I'm losing any part of myself but rather like shedding an old costume that served a purpose but is now worn out and no longer needed. I was never that costume. It's just all I allowed other people to see.
The real operating system has always been there humming along at full speed and has always been in control even if due to its packaging it remained imperceptible to anyone but me.
Why I am only now proceeding with some sort of transition is due to many factors but denial was never one of them.
Sapere Aude
I'm pretty much wth you Deborah. I see the old me and the new me as the same person. I just was not presenting myself to the world accurately. Then it became accurate, but still lacking many things.. Then i began my transition.
I don't dislike the old me, i am pleased with what she was able to accomplish and the good things she was able to for spouse, children, family and friends. I don't like all of my choices i made, but who ever does.