Being a trans man, I've heard plenty of tales about guys who, when they started to pass, were treated with more respect and taken more seriously. But I want to know what it's like on the other end of the spectrum as well. What did it feel like when you started to pass as female and lost your male privilege? Did people start taking you less seriously when you were no longer presenting as male? Did you realize you can no longer do some of the things you used to do when you were perceived as male? (Ex: no longer being able to walk home alone at night).
I've watched Kat Blaque's videos on "female privilege" and walking in the streets as a woman, but she's only one trans woman out of many. I'd like to hear more experiences about this.
I'm not quite full time yet but I don't want male privilege. I'm looking forward to enjoy what I've been missing and forget what I've been enjoying
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I didn't notice much change, but I normally work and socialise with women anyway. Most of the men I know (whether they are aware of me being trans or not) are very respectful towards me. I appreciate that isn't a common experience for many though.
It was truly a privilege I ever enjoyed, but was reminded what little bit was there was gone one time when My boyfriend reminded it wasn't safe for me to be out at night without someone. I suppose to an extent I do get talked over compared to guys saying certain things yet what I said had just as much merit possibly matched what guys said completely. It's not something I really worry about except for making sure I'm not alone after dark if I'm out at night although I was a target after dark before anyways. Hugs
Mariah
Well, it's kind of changed over time. Back when I first started transitioning, I was pretty nervous walking around at night. Now I don't really care for the most part. It's probably because I carry myself with confidence and pay attention to my surroundings, which I know are great ways to deter attackers.
On the other hand, there's a clear divide socially at work between the women and the men. Often times the guys will go out to lunch with the boss. It also feels like the guys don't need to work as hard as the women. I do feel like I at least get paid fairly though and I'm happy to be in the women's group.
Male privilege is really a bunch of little things that are difficult to notice unless you're a woman and experience the differences first hand. When I transitioned (and I'm sure this applies to most of us) I knew I wanted the full experience of womanhood. Warts and all.
This is a rather interesting subject :o :o :o
I am enjoying this topic too. I have felt the talked over part a whole lot or nobody will listen and that is presenting as a guy. I also feel like it will be really hard to get ahead as people might have an indication of something going on. Seems a lot easier to make the layoff list. I think being really tall does help with being able to walk almost anywhere at night but its not to rough here. Some places should be avoided no mater what sex you are though.
This subject kind of hits a nerve for me in a way since I never really had it to begin with and yet was subjected to a lot of the horribleness being assigned male comes with. From being beaten constantly by my peers at school to extreme levels of harassment from kindergarten all the way to highschool. It makes me cringe thinking back since I was technically a little girl being constantly bullied by the boys. To top it off I never had the strength level of males, despite T running through my system, nothing changed even when I started weight training and my attempt to become more athletic. People never really did talk over me though and people still don't (fully transitioned socially) I've always had a way with words, thanks to being naturally charismatic. So I didn't really see a change there. I think if I had started my adult life/my 20s without transitioning I probably would of benefited from being seen as "male" But my experiences with being assigned male, end in my adolescence since that's when I started transition. There was more heartache and pain than anything else. It's probably why I have an irrational fear of men and why I struggle to connect with them emotionally, dating wise.
I guess the only male privilege I got to experience was being allowed into "the boys club" but that always felt false to me. I always had to prove myself constantly to them and when puberty hit it became even worst, I had to pretend not to be disgusted with a lot of the things my friends during that time were saying about the girls at school. I can't tell you how many times I saw guys get away with terrible behavior just because of the "boys will be boys" mentality from the teachers and their parents.
On another note, even if trans women are seen by society as men (those that are in the closet or havent begun transition) their minds are still of the opposite sex so we still dont truly experience male privilege in the truest sense, its a distorted perception basically. We also don't truly benefit from it in the way cis men do, neither do we experience it in the same way since we're not actually men. The only people who have a true clear cut perception of these privileges are cis people who are often the most blind to it, which is no fault of theirs, its just the way society has been since forever. Trans men on the other hand do recognize it more but their experience of it is genuine, where as for a trans woman it isn't a true experience at all if that makes sense lol, im all over the place. There's a blog post I saw long ago that explains this in a much better way than I'm able to at the moment. If I find it, I'll paste it here.
Yes, people did start taking me less seriously.
OTOH, people were a lot nicer to me, didn't assume I was dangerous, etc.
On the whole I feel more privileged as a woman.
Same here. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: suzifrommd on May 28, 2016, 05:12:38 AM
Yes, people did start taking me less seriously.
OTOH, people were a lot nicer to me, didn't assume I was dangerous, etc.
On the whole I feel more privileged as a woman.
Not out full time but form my experiences I didn't really notice any privilege I lost on the contrary people seem to be nicer to me when I present as female.
honestly, I never had it
Quote from: stephaniec on May 28, 2016, 09:07:56 AM
honestly, I never had it
I wanted to say that but was sure someone would take offense. Honestly, there isn't a lot of privilege in being an omega male and I, for one, never had the heart to do the things necessary to be an alpha or beta.
I haven't transitioned yet, but would like to chime in on the subject. For the most part I have yet to experience many of the perceived benefits of male priveledge. I dealt with being beaten up every day for 9 years because I wasn't as strong and athletic as other boys. My sister's were always perceived as smarter than I because they did their homework and got good grades, while I goofed off and still aced exams. I was expected to pay for everything whenever out on a date or in the presence of a woman. Men are hyper competitive and I have been passed over for promotion to management 5 times because my boss won't promote another man who could challenge his dominance. I'm expected to do any and all of the yard work, home repairs, car maintenance, business affairs, etc. I don't get auto included in groups of guys because I don't fit the mold as a typical guy. Meanwhile I am uncomfortable and ostracized from the women's groups because I am an outsider. While male priveledge exists and many gain some advantages from it, it is hardly universal.
Most of my friends knew me before I started transitioning, so there really wasn't a big change there. I don't get out much either, so I don't get to gauge the reactions of too many outsiders. A good portion of the time, people still want to read me as male, so that also hasn't changed. I guess the only major change I have noticed with anyone else is that people don't value what I have to say as highly as before, but my words weren't valued too highly in the first place anyway.
There are always two sides.
Women are no longer afraid of me, and easily approach and touch me. They sit next to me in public buses or subway trains. When entering restaurants, woman workers greet me, even touching my shoulders.
I teach in a university, and students sometimes neglect my instructions, urging me to show my deep masculinity. Later students react that I am really masculine in contrast to my appearance.
Men try to help me when I park my car. Some male drivers in the road, once looking at my long hair, easily honk at me, assuming that I am a kind of poor driver as other women.
Above all, the eye stares from men, regardless of their age, are the most unenjoyable experience every day. Usually I avoid the stares, but sometimes I look at them to check whether they are some ones I know. Some of my male friends misunderstand it, thinking that I ignore them, but the others seem to figure it out why I avoid eye contacts with men.
barbie~~
As mentioned above, i think a lot of privilege is subtle things that add up over time. As a feminine presenting male, I always had a bit of an issue with fitting in with guys. I played tough sports etc and even after games, i always noticed guys were more standoffish, so i mainly hung out with women socially. A lot of men tried to socially pigeon hole me into categories etc.
What i did notice post-transition included:
1. In professional circles men tend to interrupt me more when i am speaking.
2. There is some "write-off" factor in interactions and problem solving with men as they assume my "emotional-ness" is influencing me. This is a subtle one and hard to articulate but i see it pretty often.
3. Physical - space. Guys tend to try and take up more space around themselves and afford me less space. This is sort of a privilege thing.
4. I'm a bit more careful where i go at night and what areas i hang out in, but not a lot. I was generally pretty good as far as that goes before transition.
I'm self-employed so much of my recent interactions are not with male bosses etc but clients. Generally guys are nice to me, i want to be clear on that. Women are generally nicer though and more social with me. There is a level of commonality there.
I really feel it switching these past days although as others mentioned I never really enjoyed male privileges, especially if an alpha man was around.
My social relations are very limited though, I don't work right now, but there is something in the eye of the men I speak to that changed. I feel that they desire me somehow, or what the heck :o is it me desiring them? hmmm everything is very mixed up right now.
I was never attracted to men, their manners, their ways, their body... nothing (except maybe one little part of them but that was just in my mind, never really wanted to go see)
yesterday a service man came in our appartement and :icon_eyebrow: :icon_eyebrow: was he ever hot
it's really not the same, not sure what's happening exactly
me, the others... :-\ ??? :-\ i feel I'm into the stir
we'll see ;D
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on May 28, 2016, 03:04:54 AM
From being beaten constantly by my peers at school to extreme levels of harassment from kindergarten all the way to highschool. It makes me cringe thinking back since I was technically a little girl being constantly bullied by the boys. To top it off I never had the strength level of males, despite T running through my system, nothing changed even when I started weight training and my attempt to become more athletic.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on May 28, 2016, 03:04:54 AM
I guess the only male privilege I got to experience was being allowed into "the boys club" but that always felt false to me. I always had to prove myself constantly to them and when puberty hit it became even worst
same here and I went on to deal with that for decades, myself
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on May 28, 2016, 03:04:54 AM
On another note, even if trans women are seen by society as men (those that are in the closet or havent begun transition) their minds are still of the opposite sex so we still dont truly experience male privilege in the truest sense, its a distorted perception basically. We also don't truly benefit from it in the way cis men do, neither do we experience it in the same way since we're not actually men. The only people who have a true clear cut perception of these privileges are cis people who are often the most blind to it, which is no fault of theirs, its just the way society has been since forever. Trans men on the other hand do recognize it more but their experience of it is genuine, where as for a trans woman it isn't a true experience at all if that makes sense lol, im all over the place. There's a blog post I saw long ago that explains this in a much better way than I'm able to at the moment. If I find it, I'll paste it here.
I think you explain it very well, I clearly see (what I hadn't realized before)
It is early days for me as I'm primarily viewed as male by others (mostly due to voice).
Benefits enjoyed as male
1. Invisibility - I was a ghost I could go anywhere and do anything nobody would ever remember me
2. Unnaturally strong - I was freakishly thin for limbs but my strength was way higher than my build would indicate
3. Safe - From benefits 1 & 2 I was very safe in any environment
Benefits enjoyed as female
1. Connection - Others light up when they see me and chat happily
2. Weakness - Other people do the heavy lifting at work and I feel less like a machine
3. Helpers - With a simple request for help people are happy to assist
Safety is a valid concern and I do think about it as my strength is less than a strong woman (my wife is now stronger than me).
The next bit is a little offtopic but important from my views on defense as a female.
1. If you can run...... run
2. If you can't run you have to kill or cripple your assailant fast then run.
3. If you can't run and can't get away claw, bite do as much damage as you can to their face to help them find the monster that killed you.
Wow that finished a bit heavy but yeah from my limited perspective without weapons or my freaky strength defense options are limited.
I am just happy in live in a generation that does not feel concerned with the antiquated social experiment that was feminism. We spent 20 mins on it in Psychology looking at second wave and maybe 30 mins in Social work looking at third wave then it was ignored.
I think personally privilege is not a concern for most people now a days as it is an assumption based on a desire to achieve or not. My boss is female, my mother is one of the leading Psychologists in the world doing research and policy making for the government currently. I was born intersex and lived for 5 years in my late teens as a woman and I was not treated any different apart from a few drunk guys who I told to grow up, otherwise I was treated like everyone else.
This is my perception so I can only talk for mine and the women I know as I am sure in other countries it might be different.
To me feminism is simply advocacy for equal rights and i am definitely a feminist. That equality is still not here for us and requires continued work. I see nothing obsolete about it all. Indeed when women have reach parity in pay, executive management, and political representation, there will still be work to do.
We still need an ERA and we need to make sure that equal rights are written into the constitution for sexual orientation and gender identify/expression. Leaving such things to state governments is always unwise.
It was night and day. I have noticed the social dynamic changing slowly as I have integrated myself deeper into my transition. Men can either be respectful or treat you like a second class human being no joke. With women, they would either ignore you coz they don't see you as a competition or they will just be plain nasty.
Quote from: RobynD on May 28, 2016, 09:42:12 PM
To me feminism is simply advocacy for equal rights and i am definitely a feminist. That equality is still not here for us and requires continued work. I see nothing obsolete about it all. Indeed when women have reach parity in pay, executive management, and political representation, there will still be work to do.
so am I, a feminist
Yes!!! !! lots of work to do still but,
Quote from: Sarah leah on May 28, 2016, 09:29:14 PM
I am just happy in live in a generation that does not feel concerned with the antiquated social experiment that was feminism. We spent 20 mins on it in Psychology looking at second wave and maybe 30 mins in Social work looking at third wave then it was ignored.
I think personally privilege is not a concern for most people now a days as it is an assumption based on a desire to achieve or not. My boss is female, my mother is one of the leading Psychologists in the world doing research and policy making for the government currently. I was born intersex and lived for 5 years in my late teens as a woman and I was not treated any different apart from a few drunk guys who I told to grow up, otherwise I was treated like everyone else.
This is my perception so I can only talk for mine and the women I know as I am sure in other countries it might be different.
I agree that the new generation is very much less affected by the male dominance system that ruled us for tooooo long >:(
and yes, it's very much a matter of perceptions... all of what we are (I mean humans)
I don't think I had much to begin with other than safety and invisibility; i felt like an average person. HOWEVER, I definitely gained more than what I lost when i started to transition and i do have to say i miss being left alone. I'm still not used to all the ogling, catcalls, and attention. Nowadays guys are opening doors and stopping the elevator doors for me, and generally treating me like im some fragile thing (even though i am small as heck). Overall, I feel like I've unlocked more privileges now as a female. People come up and talk to me more, are more touchy-feely and socializing seems to be more smooth.
In the last few years I mostly present as a woman and I can clearly see how people's expectations change when they see a woman. People are generally nicer to me but they expect less of me in typically male dominated fields.
It can be quite funny(and sometimes annoying) when I dress feminine and go into a DIY store or filling station everybody offers me help because they don't expect me to know technical stuff. When I go to similar places dressed as a man(usually after work) people treat my like they believe I know what I'm doing.
My girlfriend experiences the same thing in airsoft gun shops recently. She was looking for an exact model but none of the shops had it and all of the shops tried to sell her a clearly inferior model instead, believing she wouldn't know the difference. That never happened before her transition.
And I could go on and on as I know a lot of MTF girls here and every one of them experienced similar things.
A lot of men here still think that women can't be as smart as men. I heard them say that when I was presenting as male.
Quote from: Lynne on May 29, 2016, 07:03:54 AM
A lot of men here still think that women can't be as smart as men. I heard them say that when I was presenting as male.
you say here... it's Everywhere! :icon_blah:
I realized recently so many men think that. I thought we had gone forward... we did a step, maybe. They talk to me as if I'm one of them haha... whaaaat? Then I argue and try to find out why they think that...
...lots of work to do
As a "beta" somewhat effeminate male I never experienced the full benefits of male privilege.
Now that I've transitioned I've noticed now that men will just talk over me in meetings, men don't listen to me even though I'm the SME on the project, misogyny is happening, and women seem to be more critical of me. I also notice that I'm assumed incompetent until proven otherwise.
On the plus side of the ledger men are much nicer, doors are held for me, men offer to lift and move heavy things for me, and women are far more friendly and chatty. Conversations with women even veer off into 100% female areas like periods and pregnancies.
It also seems like I must work a lot harder and I must produce better work to stay at my current position whereas before it was almost a given.
Quote from: Soli on May 29, 2016, 08:58:08 AM
you say here... it's Everywhere! :icon_blah:
I realized recently so many men think that. I thought we had gone forward... we did a step, maybe. They talk to me as if I'm one of them haha... whaaaat? Then I argue and try to find out why they think that...
...lots of work to do
...meanwhile women are exceeding men in educational performance and in many metrics relating to education.
There's two sides to privilege; internal and external. External privilege is in how people deal with you. Internal privilege is how you interpret and react to the actions of others. When somebody says "It's all in your head," they're failing to understand the mechanisms behind internal privilege. We hear stories about women, for example, being taken less seriously, and see it happen with our own eyes. So, when we see evidence of that, we react to it. Sometimes it is purely up in our heads, but it's completely irrational to just accept that as a justification for every bit of evidence we see.
When our lived experience is denied to our faces, it makes is question our experiences. It's beyond frustrating, and makes it even harder to trust that people care, or that they're willing to listen. It makes us feel more alone, more invalidated, less worthy... and entirely reinforces the cultural norm. And then, we react -- we go along to get along, because it's just not worth a fight some days, especially when the evidence from yesterday shows that we won't be taken seriously in that fight.
However... one blindly act as though they have privilege. It can work. This is a superpower that transwomen can hone -- you were raised as a man... if you continue to act as though you have the privilege of a man, people might surprise you. Of course some of those surprises will be bad. But if you continue to act as though you have privilege, you're setting an example. Others will see that, and hopefully we can help establish a new norm.
"Male privilege"? What an awful concept. People who discriminate because of gender have no place in my life if I can in any way remove them.
You remind me of times in my life when I (regrettably) had a very "normal" Caucasian male appearance, though. I would sometimes find myself around guys who would discuss women and ethnic minorities in a derogatory way. I suppose this served as a signal to me that I was doing something wrong. Growing long hair and dressing in a more androgynous manner seemed to eliminate such experiences. I suspect I now am the subject of such persons' mutterings from time to time, but that's fine with me. I'd rather be the brunt of their bigoted disdain than to be incorrectly considered one of their ilk.
I have been thinking about this since seeing the thread.
I can't see that I ever had male privilege. I was seperate from everyone but not excluded. The closest I can come to something that would describe my interactions with people; I had to be accounted for. I had no intention in joining in and no one ever made an effort to include me. Could have been my fault. Even with the few friends I had I was not part of the hierarchy. I personally have never been picked on, made fun of or harassed but all of my friends were. By the time I hit puberty I was so messed up that I felt uncomfortable with everyone. I was so very different than everyone else, I knew that even if no one else did. A friend once said after getting to know me, that he thought that I was a snob when I first came there. After getting to know me he knew that nothing could be further from the truth. I think that it was my fear of people finding out what I was really like that kept me on my island. So I don't think that male privilege was something that I ever experienced.
That being said, things have definitely changed. I have never had anyone pay attention to me or maybe be attentive would be the right word. Girls tried when I was younger but wow did that make me uncomfortable. I was so worried about hurting their feelings but more worried that it would get worse if I didn't do something. So I would distance myself from them and by the time I was sixteen I stopped being friends with girls completely. That was thirty years ago. :) But guys, oh my god! Even the ones at work and they KNOW that I was not born a girl, they have been watching me transition after all :) , make an effort to get my attention. I find that I don't mind in the least. ;)
Privilege I am not so sure of but yes things have changed. For the better really even if it can be too much at times. Of course things were going to change. That was the whole point right? If it is in ways that I didn't expect, well that's okay, it doesn't define me and can't chain me to their rules unless I let it.
We, as a species, have outgrown our evolution. Our society doesn't need the outdated programs inside of us that were once a biological imperative. So we have the 'male privilege' that probably most people think is bogus anyway. But... I LIKE the way men and women treat me now. Women accepting me as one of them and men pursuing me seems right. If I've lost anything at all, I have gained soooo much more. :)
I don't care about male privilege. Women have privileges too and this woman never got to grow up the way she should have. I'm happy with my female privilege today
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Female privilege is everywhere in society and is a indisputable fact that I am slowly starting to embrace daily. I have not even started hrt yet and I get it over the phone or through everyday interactions due to people being uncertain "is it a boy, is it a girl." I see it at work a dozen times a day when males enter the building and are set upon as perpetrators of rape and violence, even when statically men get raped more, assaulted more and segregated in social setting more due to notions of gender bias. I might only have one PhD currently to my name but I gained it for a reason and it was not because of the benefits of third wave misandry, it was because I had to fight to gain it in a educational system designed to gate keep those perceived as a threat to change. (I like a challenge just like my mum :) ) Of course I identify as female and have the extra X's to keep the TERF at bay meaning as a consequence that I do indeed get to see the issues some of our gender face. I often feel upset when some older males' in there late 40s treat the women I work with like dirt by saying rude comments from "hey love =insert creepy comments about bums or breasts= to straight-out whispers of sexually explicit terms.
That said they are few and far between often being relegated to the front bars of some dingy bar in Fremantle or Hackham West along with the other greasy 1970s born perverts and degenerates that somehow have coerced others into breeding the next batch of Darwin award winners.
Some people might read this and state I know nothing about patriarchy or feminism but trust me when I say that having Julie Bindel as your blood relative helps to define a lot about you More so when you are used as an example to satisfy the nepotism of others within a subgroup.
She is mean by the way in real life and not just in newspaper articles or at rallies. In 2015 for example she told my mother on the phone that she had failed as a woman by allowing that "->-bleeped-<- male" to pretend -it- is a woman when it is just a male freak looking to rape women.")
However, as an ideology it has done some fantastic things in its infancy which should never be forgotten or overshadowed by the eugeni-centric views of a select few hate mongers.
/waits to be yelled at or down voted for being a fourth waver :(
For me I never cared at all about any male privilege.......Being a nice woman is a so much nicer way of life, softer, more kind, more caring......., more love. As a nice woman men always treated me nice, some where a little rough but not too bad. I would not want life any other way than to be female.......
I'm an Alpha female and have more financial power that 99.99 pct of men and they know it. I demand respect and get it. It's just how you come across. .I'm also one mean fighter and will not take any of their crap.
Men who look down on me soon regret it and I enjoy watching their balls shrivel up ....lol
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 30, 2016, 08:50:42 AM
I'm an Alpha female and have more financial power that 99.99 pct of men and they know it. I demand respect and get it. It's just how you come across. .I'm also one mean fighter and will not take any of their crap.
Men who look down on me soon regret it and I enjoy watching their balls shrivel up ....lol
You are what I aspire to be when I become the office alpha because at 5 foot 9 I do not mind looking most people in the eye and saying, "You need to rethink that my dear."
:icon_geekdance:
Quote from: Soli on May 29, 2016, 08:58:08 AM
you say here... it's Everywhere! :icon_blah:
Yes. Here it is, too.
Fatal stabbing fuels concern over gender violence in S. Koreahttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-3600484/Fatal-stabbing-fuels-concern-gender-violence-S-Korea.html
But, I like to add that a young woman can walk safely alone at mid-night in any street of Seoul. I also sometimes walk alone at mid-night on high heels here, and have never met any threatening moment.
barbie~~
Quote from: warlockmaker on May 30, 2016, 08:50:42 AM
I'm an Alpha female and have more financial power that 99.99 pct of men and they know it. I demand respect and get it. It's just how you come across. .I'm also one mean fighter and will not take any of their crap.
Men who look down on me soon regret it and I enjoy watching their balls shrivel up ....lol
Good for you Ms. War Lock. I like a man that is confident in his manhood, a well endowed man but that does not brag about it. A man that can go play golf while I go shopping, do my nails....cook a nice dinner then enjoy a romantic evening together......A man that will take charge in the bedroom so I can just enjoy being myself, a woman. Being desired to me in one of the nicest things about being female. Most men rarely even give me a hard time or express any "crap" toward me. But I tell them up early to treat me nice or I'm not the right woman or person for them, no rough play, just nice sex together..... Oh well my $.02 worth.